India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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kit
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by kit »

Prem Kumar wrote:Very interesting!

We could have a mothership UAVs, which could launch these autonomous drones to hunt for jihadis in the forests near LoC. Same with Maoists too in the jungles of Bastar etc. Even if they are not armed, they could silently track the target, while our SF do their work.

In a future Kargil like conflict, we should be sending armed mini-drones to launch grenades into bunkers, rather than send waves of our men.
the tech already exists , weaponized drone swarms are already in use with mobile command units
ramana
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ramana »

Rohit,
Please study this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubra



Image


Image

Image
csharma
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by csharma »

I found this superb paper by Admiral Raja Menon on what India's military grand strategy should be. This is all about China chanllenge.

Note sure if this is the right thread. Admins can move the the post if needed. Would be good to get some reviews from the experts

https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/JIPA/D ... -offensiv/

Reorienting Indian Military Grand Strategy: Defensive Territoriality to Offensive Oceanic in the Indo-Pacific
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Adrija »

I found this superb paper by Admiral Raja Menon on what India's military grand strategy should be. This is all about China chanllenge.

[snip]........
Thank you for that csharma ji

Stupid noob queschwen, please forgive me for its naivete- the entire paper seems to be hinging on China's "Achilles heel" of having to import crude from Mideast and hence the need to have IN as trump card. But what is stopping CH from sourcing petroleum from RU- Siberia is right next door and equally well endowed with crude

In the past RU may have been more oriented to supplying crude and gas to EU but post UKr that is not an option

Granted that CH refineries may need to be reoriented to process the Ural crude but that is a solvable problem

So what gives? Where am I getting this wrong?

Also, just to clarify, I am not in any way questioning the need to strengthen the Navy. I do however question his assumption that we cannot implement RMA in the mountains (or rather, should not, as per him).

I would instead submit that we should build for an offensive posture in Tibet while also seeking sea control in the wider Indian Ocean area (including Arabian Sea and Bay of Bengal) - for India's long term security our borders have to be guarded at the Bolan and Khyber passes and at the outer edge of the Tibet plateau. The fact that is sounds outlandish and completely infeasible today does not mean we do not provision for it

Also, small nitpick- as per Angus Maddison India was #1 in the world over 1 AD-1550, when China overtook it. He did not highlight that point but chose instead to say "for over 500 years China had the largest GDP"

TIA
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

csharma wrote:I found this superb paper by Admiral Raja Menon on what India's military gran strategy should be.
For over a millenia, or close to even two, Han China was a continental power (IOW, 'Heartland' -oriented, a la Mackinder) until Hu Jintao re-oriented to 'Rimland' (a la Spykman). Hence the importance of the Navy in recent times, reduction in army manpower, string of pearls, foreign bases, Solomon Islands etc.

China was never a thalassocracy in the sense that it did not ply its trade on high seas by itself. It allowed foreign traders to come to its ports. Until the 10th CE, the Chinese did not venture out into the Indo-China Sea (ICS) and when they did so it was scanty and sporadic. The first serious attempt was in the 14th CE by Zheng He under the Yongle Emperor of the Ming Dynasty. But quickly that was also shut down They did not have mariner's charts etc and they stole them from the Javanese, who were superb mariners. A big Yuan-era flotilla was destroyed by not only the Sri Wijaya but also by the lack of knowledge of the monsoons. By 1025 CE, Rajendra Chola had defeated the Sri Wijaya empire by mounting a pincer naval attack through Melakka & Sunda. The Pala, the Pallavas, Kalinga, Cheras, Marathis & Kutchis had been ruling the high seas already.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by NRao »

Balar
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Balar »

Saw below tweet regarding unusual military movement within China. Mods if you find this irrelevant, please delete.

I am unable to embedd the tweet.

https://twitter.com/LevinaNeythiri/stat ... fE5eEvrEPQ
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Prem Kumar »

SSridhar wrote:
csharma wrote:I found this superb paper by Admiral Raja Menon on what India's military gran strategy should be.
For over a millenia, or close to even two, Han China was a continental power (IOW, 'Heartland' -oriented, a la Mackinder) until Hu Jintao re-oriented to 'Rimland' (a la Spykman). Hence the importance of the Navy in recent times, reduction in army manpower, string of pearls, foreign bases, Solomon Islands etc.

China was never a thalassocracy in the sense that it did not ply its trade on high seas by itself. It allowed foreign traders to come to its ports. Until the 10th CE, the Chinese did not venture out into the Indo-China Sea (ICS) and when they did so it was scanty and sporadic. The first serious attempt was in the 14th CE by Zheng He under the Yongle Emperor of the Ming Dynasty. But quickly that was also shut down They did not have mariner's charts etc and they stole them from the Javanese, who were superb mariners. A big Yuan-era flotilla was destroyed by not only the Sri Wijaya but also by the lack of knowledge of the monsoons. By 1025 CE, Rajendra Chola had defeated the Sri Wijaya empire by mounting a pincer naval attack through Melakka & Sunda. The Pala, the Pallavas, Kalinga, Cheras, Marathis & Kutchis had been ruling the high seas already.
A superb post, SSridhar Ji! Learnt much - thanks!
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Rakesh »

Is China Planning To Strike India In Arunachal Pradesh?

ramana
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ramana »

ramana
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ramana »

The single biggest threat is China. Only they can derail India.

Especially with US support.

Rest is all noise and distraction. Modi govt already defused West Asia.

Need us to focus on China only.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

ramana wrote:The single biggest threat is China. Only they can derail India.
Rest is all noise and distraction.
Need us to focus on China only.
Absolutely, ramana. Many a time, we tend to lose this picture. Let's have a laser-like focus on this.
Especially with US support.
It is my understanding that the US (and the other two QUAD members, EU et al) also recognize the fact that it will be India that alone can checkmate China. So, at this stage I see no possibility of the US colluding with China against us. However, the US will certainly keep ammunition dry & ready for us, no doubt. Once China is sufficiently removed as a threat, it will be our turn. In the meanwhile, we will continue to get pricks from the US on religious freedom, human rights, trade issues etc. The pot will be kept simmering. We have to play Realpolitik and extract our pound of flesh from the US for our growth because the US is still the technological leader, and be ready for the inevitable US challenge later. Japan did it with Meiji Restoration, economic growth and subsequent stance against the US. We have seen China do that too.

But, right now, the US focus is also on containing/derailing China
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Atmavik »

ramana wrote:The single biggest threat is China. Only they can derail India.

when we rid our self of -ve emotions like Anger, frustration, helplessnes. we see a clearer picture. the above stmt is what evry one needs to think about.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Cyrano »

Remembering Col Santosh Babu and his brave men, 20 of whom gave their lives but didn't give an inch.

1. Col B Santosh Babu- Hyderabad

2. Nb Sub Nuduram Soren- Mayurbhanj

3. Nb Sub Mandeep Singh- Patiala

4. Nb Sub Satnam Singh- Gurdaspur

5. Hav K Palani-Madurai

6. Hav Sunil Kumar-Patna

7. Hav Bipul Roy-Meerut City

8. Nk Deepak Kumar- Rewa

9. Sep Rajesh Orang-Birgham

10. Sep Kundan Kumar Ojha- Sahibganj

11. Sep Ganesh Ram-Kanker

12. Sep Chandrakanta Pradhan-Kandhamal

13. Sep Ankush-Hamirpur

14. Sep Gurbinder-Sangrur

15. Sep Gurtej Singh-Mansa

16. Sep Chandan Kumar-Bhojpur

17. Sep Kundan Kumar-Saharsa

18. Sep Aman Kumar-Samastipur

19. Sep Jai Kishore Singh-Vaishali

20. Sep Ganesh Hansda-East Singhbum

Shraddhanjali aur sadaeva aabhar !
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Rakesh »

Actions during eastern Ladakh standoff credited to jawans, jointness of armed forces: Gen Naravane
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 344491.cms
20 June 2022
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Vayutuvan »

Cyrano wrote:Remembering Col Santosh Babu and his brave men, 20 of whom gave their lives but didn't give an inch.
...
Shraddhanjali aur sadaeva aabhar !
Absolutely. Untrained soft bottoms like moi would have been scared to do hand-to-hand feral kill-or-be-killed combat.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/DesiEscobar07/statu ... OlDfH1nr1Q ---> Pakistan may cede Gilgit Baltistan, a Pakistan-occupied Kashmir region to China on lease to pay off its mounting debt: Report.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/DesiEscobar07/statu ... OlDfH1nr1Q ---> Pakistan may cede Gilgit Baltistan, a Pakistan-occupied Kashmir region to China on lease to pay off its mounting debt: Report.
I am not sure if the entire GB would be ceded by TSP to China. GB is just too big and very strategic too.

It is Hunza which provides access through the Khunjerab & Mintaka into J&K from Xinjiang.

But, it may concede Hunza. Of late, there have been some news about that. There was one research paper a couple of years back by an American in the Routledge 'South Asian History & Culture' that talked about how Hunza was a vassal of Qing China and how the British incorporated that into the Maharajah's J&K.

One should read Amb. Sujan Chinoy's excellently researched paper in MP-IDSA, "The Forgotten Fact of 'China-Occupied Kashmir' " to understand the Chinese perversity and fabrication.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Pratyush »

Vayutuvan wrote:
Cyrano wrote:Remembering Col Santosh Babu and his brave men, 20 of whom gave their lives but didn't give an inch.
...
Shraddhanjali aur sadaeva aabhar !
Absolutely. Untrained soft bottoms like moi would have been scared to do hand-to-hand feral kill-or-be-killed combat.
Don't sell your self short. If you or I were in his place. I have faith that we would have done exactly what was required.

As our training and demands of leadership would have kicked in and the mission would have been accomplished. Regardless of the cost.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ks_sachin »

^^An interesting observation...

I have heard anecdotally of a potential CO who was to take over command of the BN in Demchok who pulled strings at AHQ to get his posting changed. Did not want to go near the glacier.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by srin »

^^^ What glacier is near to the Demchok ?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Maria »

srin wrote:^^^ What glacier is near to the Demchok ?
The glacier of abundant roses as per an Indian language called Balti.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by srin »

^^^ Siachen is in north Ladakh and Demchok is in South - around 300kms away as the crow flies. I'm not an orbat expert but I find it hard to believe that a battalion at Demchok is tasked with guarding Siachen too
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Maria »

srin wrote:^^^ Siachen is in north Ladakh and Demchok is in South - around 300kms away as the crow flies. I'm not an orbat expert but I find it hard to believe that a battalion at Demchok is tasked with guarding Siachen too
Are there any other glaciers that are tough to guard around?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

India could be attacked on all fronts; IAF can deliver desired punch when required: Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari
India should comprehend the situation along its unsettled western and northern borders as a 'two-front' contingency and prepare for it accordingly, Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari said on Sunday, referring to the possible challenge from a collusive military threat from China and Pakistan.

In an exclusive interview, the Chief of Air Staff said India could be attacked on all fronts, starting from military standoffs to information manipulation and blackouts in the future and its security doctrines and capabilities will have to cater to such possibilities.

To a specific question on whether Russian aggression against Ukraine could encourage China to take more aggressive posturing along the Line of Actual Control (LAC), he said the effect of global events and geopolitical developments on India's engagement with Beijing are being assessed continually across wide-ranging domains "at all levels".

"As a nation, we need to identify our immediate and future threats accurately so that necessary capability responses can be developed to counter them," he said.

Asked about China's rapid deployment of its air assets along the LAC in eastern Ladakh amid the lingering border standoff, he said the "IAF can deliver the desired punch when required within a very short time-frame."

Listing the rapid geopolitical upheavals, the Chief of Air Staff noted that any future conflict will require the integration of all elements of the national security apparatus to make it an "All-of-Nation-Approach".

"We have certain challenges on our western and northern borders, primarily due to unsettled borders. It would be prudent for us to comprehend our situation as a 'two-front' contingency' and prepare for it accordingly," he opined.

The chief of Air Staff said that India's military operational plans, capability enhancement and training should always cater for a wide spectrum of threats emanating from either or both fronts.

Several top military officials including India's first Chief of Defence Staff Gen Bipin Rawat and former Army Chief Gen MM Naravane had flagged concerns about the possibility of a coordinated threat along the northern and western fronts.

But it is for the first time that a serving chief has called for a detailed plan to deal with such a threat.

"We are also cognisant of the need to be prepared for an event-based short-duration operation which necessitates quick planning, rapid deployment of assets and swift action," he said.

"IAF is working intricately on all these aspects to build a credible force to cater to all contingencies," he added.

The comments by the IAF chief came in the backdrop of a greater realisation among India's national security planners that the country must have a comprehensive security architecture in the face of rapid geopolitical turmoil as well as the strategic reality of the long-term militarisation of the LAC by China.

"We must take a longer-term view and look at the manifestation of hostile forces on our national interests rather than compare threats as per the present state of affairs," Air Chief Marshal Chaudhari said.

"We face a different adversary on our western and northern borders, both in terms of its nature and numbers. As defence forces, we remain ever vigilant to respond to any threat and to safeguard national sovereignty at all costs," he said.

The chief of Air Staff exuded confidence that the Indian armed forces have provided enough deterrence to preclude any "misadventure on our borders".

On China expanding its military infrastructure along the LAC, Air Chief Marshal Chaudhari said the IAF continually keep abreast of the capability development across the borders and take actions to mitigate any threats that such developments may cause.

"I am happy to see the pace of our infrastructure up-gradation in order to meet the requirements of our new inductions and operational imperatives," he said, adding the Chinook helicopters have started operating from one of the two earmarked bases in the east with infrastructure development nearing completion at the second base.

The IAF chief said the infrastructure for the second Rafale squadron and subsequent operationalisation has also been completed in the eastern sector.

He said existing Advanced Landing Grounds (ALGs) in the North-Eastern region have been upgraded by putting in place additional resources and equipment.

"Further, we realise the inherent attributes of air power that allow us to rapidly concentrate effects over wide geographical areas in very short timelines," he said.

"While I would not comment upon our actual deployment, it would suffice to state that the IAF can deliver the desired punch when required within a very short time-frame," he added.

Asked what role the IAF can play in the Indo-Pacific, the Air Chief Marshal said it is committed to playing its part in ensuring freedom of navigation and progression of a rules-based order in the region in line with the country's foreign policy.

"There is a requirement of maintaining peace, tranquillity, freedom of movement and most importantly equal rights for all nations in the region, irrespective of their size and might," he said.

"India's growing stature has seen its convergence not only with like-minded nations but also with global stakeholders in the Indo-Pacific,"
he added.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ramana »

So many generalities I don't see anything new that was conveyed in this exclusive interview.

Is the PTI reporter a fool to ask about Indo-Pacific when the threat per the chief is a two-front war along the borders?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by wig »

https://indianexpress.com/article/citie ... h-7994115/

Army conducts ‘Exercise Blitzkrieg’ in Ladakh
extracts
The GOC-in-C Northern Command, Lt Gen Upendra Dwivedi, spent five days in Ladakh last week where, among other things, he evaluated the conduct of Exercise Blitzkrieg. The combined arms Corps Level exercise was conducted to validate several operational concepts as an aftermath of the standoff with the Chinese PLA in eastern Ladakh.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ks_sachin »

Maria wrote:
srin wrote:^^^ Siachen is in north Ladakh and Demchok is in South - around 300kms away as the crow flies. I'm not an orbat expert but I find it hard to believe that a battalion at Demchok is tasked with guarding Siachen too
Are there any other glaciers that are tough to guard around?
Guys understand how the army functions!!!

No. The bn was originally going to the glacier area but the posting changed to Demchok
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ks_sachin »

srin wrote:^^^ Siachen is in north Ladakh and Demchok is in South - around 300kms away as the crow flies. I'm not an orbat expert but I find it hard to believe that a battalion at Demchok is tasked with guarding Siachen too
Have responded.

Posting changed....
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ramana »

SCMP Infographis dated 2020 on Himalayan Conflict

Himalayan conflict https://multimedia.scmp.com/culture/art ... 1A271.html
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Aditya_V »

Well dont know what to make of this

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 757329.cms
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by S_Madhukar »

So they are saying hey our airbases are now all stocked and we can fly our planes too ? Trying to show off to the IAF
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Prem Kumar »

Sometimes its a show of force. Sometimes its done to probe our defenses, how quickly we can scramble etc
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ramana »

Grp Capt Hari Nair and others please read and reflect. Thanks, ramana

https://www.stimson.org/2022/chinas-evo ... -on-india/
Its a long paper traces the Chinese discourse before Galwan and seeks to see how things will pan out.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ldev »

It looks like there have been multiple instances of PLAAF fighters coming across India's perceived LAC in recent weeks. One instance is specifically mentioned in the ET report where a PLAAF J-11 flew for a few minutes across the LAC and the IAF scrambled Mig 29s in response. This Chinese air activity happened in the weeks leading up the upteenth around of military border talks which begs the question as to whether China is at all serious about any further progress in those talks. Also whether air incursions against India will become the new norm just as they are against Japan and Taiwan.

IAF scrambles fighter jets in response to Chinese actions on LAC; IAF chief on PLAAF provocations just before military talks

https://twitter.com/htTweets/status/1548643506339848192
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Raja »

Only way to avoid the situation to get worse is to shoot down the next time a high profile aircraft does an incursion. Maybe right after all the S-4000 are deployed.

That's the only language Chinese understand.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ArjunPandit »

another way would be coordinated incursion by India japan and US across three fronts..
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by konaseema »

Very good reason to order few more squadrons of Mk1A and press them on CAP duties.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Dilbu »

India, China hold 16th round of Corps Commander talks
India and China held the 16th round of Corps Commander level talks on Sunday for over 12 hours as the two sides attempted to revive the stalled process of disengagement and de-escalation in Eastern Ladakh.

Talks began at 09:30 a.m. on the Indian side at Chushul border personnel meeting point and ended around 10 p.m., an official source said on Sunday. The Indian side is led by Lt Gen Anindya Sengupta, 14 Corps Commander.
While an agreement for disengagement from Patrolling Point-15 was close by in the last few rounds of talks, China’s refusal to discuss other friction areas, Demchok and Depsang maintaining that they are not a part of the current stand-off, has stalled any progress. India has been insisting on comprehensive disengagement and de-escalation to end the ongoing standoff in eastern Ladakh.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Khalsa »

Wastage of time, we should be building up infrastructure and relocating assets to Leh permanently.
The Dragon only fears the slapping claw of the Tiger.
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