India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 08 Sep 2020 12:02

I think the "they fired shots first" is not just a whine from the butt-hurt (which means we did something right), but is also an excuse to go up the escalation ladder.

Typically, powers that wanted to start a war, create an 'incident' that they blame on the other side, so that their act of war can be justified.

nam · Post by **nam** » 08 Sep 2020 12:04

It is quite funny to see a "self styled superpower" threatening daily to unleash hell on the real superpower USA, is complaining about "evil" India escalating conflict by firing in the air

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 08 Sep 2020 12:08

Some news outlets are reporting that the Chinese fired in the air as well.
Major incident averted as Chinese opens fire on Indian troops in Ladakh, India fires back

The Chinese army opened fire on Indian troops in Ladakh on Monday night, following which the Indian Army fired warning shots in retaliation to stop the Chinese PLA from trying to occupy Indian positions.

The latest incident of firing between the Indian and Chinese army took place at a time when the brigade commanders of both the countries are engaged in talks near the Chushul Moldo BPM post.

The firing incident took place on the heights south of the BPM posts in Chushul where both sides were engaged in a skirmish and the Chinese army first fired shots in the air. After that, the Indian troops pushed them back into their territory by firing warning shots.

Following the firing incident, there was heavy mobilisation of armoured regiments and ground troops in the Chushul area. The provocation was caused by the PLA troops who are looking to gain an edge over the Indian side in the eastern Ladakh sector by occupying the tournament heights.

nam · Post by **nam** » 08 Sep 2020 12:10

Chinis are probing around the hills to see if any of them can be occupied. Looks like PLA recon teams are been sent to scout our positions, either for future action or capture some empty positions.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 08 Sep 2020 12:11

China and India accuse each other of opening fire in fresh border clash

India and China have accused each other’s soldiers of firing warning shots in the latest incident on the disputed border in the Himalayas.

China initially claimed Indian soldiers crossed the Line of Actual Control in the western border region on Monday and opened fire to threaten border official as part of a “severe military provocation”, forcing Chinese forces to take “corresponding countermeasures” .

A statement from the Indian army said its troops exercised restraint and did not cross the border. India also said Chinese troops fired into the air on Monday to intimidate Indian troops in what it described as “provocative activities”.

China said the incident happened on the southern coast of Pangong lake in an area known in Chinese as Shenpaoshan. On the Indian side, the area is known as Chushul where the two countries’ local military commanders have held several rounds of talks to defuse the standoff.

Both sides have sent tens of thousands of troops to the disputed Himalayan border, which sits at an altitude of more than 4,000 metres (13,500ft).

chola · Post by **chola** » 08 Sep 2020 12:34

nam wrote:It is quite funny to see a "self styled superpower" threatening daily to unleash hell on the real superpower USA, is complaining about "evil" India escalating conflict by firing in the air

Nam ji, from what I've seem they haven't threatened the US much at all while the USN is exercising right off their damn coast. They're being dared to take the first shot but they won't. I'm repeatedly disappointed (but not surprised) by these herbivores. I want to see some of their equipment in action after all this chini mil watching!

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 08 Sep 2020 12:45

Face-off at Rechin La leads to scuffle with aggressive PLA. Situation tense but ground commanders talking

there are reports of a scuffle between the Indian Army and an aggressive People’s Liberation Army (PLA) on the Rezang-La-Rechin La ridgeline with some injuries sustained by Indian troopers as China wants to unilaterally change the status quo south of Pangong Tso.

Hmm... "injuries sustained" - not being reported officially anywhere else AFAIK.

RajaRudra · Post by **RajaRudra** » 08 Sep 2020 12:47

The way chinese are reacting in Gobar times, there seems to many things that had happened last night. Not just police style firing in air...

After every Monday, there will be a tuesday..

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Sep 2020 13:15

Who fired? We say the Chinks did. Chinks say pwe did and that they "don't want a border war with us", indicates extreme nervousness on their side.Further aggro from the "yellow",cowardly race is to be expected,as they have long considerable reputations for deceict and back-stabbin,as if it is its birthright .

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 08 Sep 2020 13:18

hanumadu wrote:
Saurav Jha
@SJha1618
So,
@delhidefence
's analysts have put together this rough estimate of Chinese positions around the Spanggur Tso area using commercially available imagery (but marked on Google Earth). The yellow dots to the West are the ones that have been in contestation of late.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EhVynXNUMAA ... ame=medium

This map does not look right,
(1) the 2 orange dots at top right corner are placed in a location which has no road connectivity (or any tactical significance
(2) the right 2 orange dots on the north shore of the lake should actually be on the south shore of the lake (that were the camps were seen and where they would face off with the IA troops on the ridge to the south.
(3) I don’t think there is a road on the north shore of the lake (none of the sat images show any evidence of it.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 08 Sep 2020 13:46

From ToI,

India- China border dispute live updates: Chinese media reports quoting NSA Doval are false, India says

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 08 Sep 2020 13:52

The conflict happened here: 78.8581973347665,33.41619707215585,0

It is the ridge line between Reching La (to the west) and Rezang La (on the east). The marked point is the LAC. One way to determine the LAC ("Actual" remember!) is to look for clearly made and graded patrol paths. The chinese path ends at this point, and there is a turnout. Googal unkil draws the LAC right there. This ridge line overlooks both Las, hence of very high importance. It is to be noted that both sides seems to clearly know where the "Actual" line is.

The chinese have their post at around 9.5km north on top of the ridge line, commanding both Las.

My take is that our boys went just to the LAC and set camp there, instead of the usual practice of going on a patrol and promptly returning. This is paying the chinese in their own RMB. They came to evict us, but had to go back (just like our folk used to do a few months ago.

So, we have our boys set camp and "dug in" right at the LAC all over the ridge line now. This is exactly what the chinese did on the north bank of Pangong Lake. The principal difference is, they got no strategic or tactical advantage there, but we do, as we command the peaks. It is my impression that we did not cross the LAC to set up camp. At least not yet.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 08 Sep 2020 13:59

We must warn India seriously: You have crossed the line! Your frontline troops have crossed the line! Your nationalist public opinion has crossed the line! Your policy toward China has crossed the line! You are over-confidently provoking the PLA and Chinese people - this is like doing a handstand on the edge of a cliff!

Nationalist forces in India should think twice that if the Chinese and Indian armies change their agreement of handling friction along the border area to prioritize the use of gun, then what use of them seizing two commanding heights on the south bank of Pangong Tso Lake? Does commanding height make sense in modern military conflict? Between Indian and China, which country has more weaponry and which country has bigger military budget, can't Indians count out?

China doesn't want a border war with India. But if the Indian side misinterprets China's goodwill and intends to deter the PLA with warning shots, its moves will backfire. China will never concede for the sake of avoiding a war. If India's frontline troops continue to fire shots recklessly, they must be prepared for the consequences of breaking the rule in the first place - they could be eliminated immediately in case of military conflicts

https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1200226.shtml

Sounds as if the Chinese are left with few options and are now hoping threats in Global times will work. It is particularly interesting to read China will never concede for the sake of avoiding a war. I think the the Chinese were trying to test India on this. The PLA probably assessed, that such a test could be controlled within a military dimension. But they never took into account the economic and geopolitical dynamics. It is a Chinese system failure. I do not think war is eminent now, as the Chinese can pull back any time.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 08 Sep 2020 14:03

What is the Doval statement that is supposedly put out by Chinese mouthpieces that our MEA denied?

Also, did India occupy any additional points in Chushul area that the chinese tried to grab back? Also did anyone read their statement on "chinese troops trying to negotiate" in the night? I laughed when I read that

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 08 Sep 2020 14:04

Rishirishi wrote:
...Between Indian and China, which country has more weaponry and which country has bigger military budget, can't Indians count out?

https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1200226.shtml

Sounds almost pleading

S_Madhukar · Post by **S_Madhukar** » 08 Sep 2020 14:18

It's a systems failure alright when the simulations were based on RaGa level of IQ... If you meet MMS and RaGa and CCP thought they were the best brains and brawn in India, man their models were doomed to fail!

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 08 Sep 2020 14:21

sajaym wrote:I'm frequently seeing TV channels gushing about the SFF. All credit to the SFF, but what people are not realizing is that the SFF is nothing but the Indian equivalent of the mujahideen or similar to the Mukti Bahini/LTTE. The only difference is that while Pakis train their 'freedom fighters' to terrorist level standards, India trains it's 'freedom fighters' to Indian Army level standards -- and that little difference is what brings about deadly results!

Sir, please do not compare selfless freedom fighters of SFF and Mukti Bahini with rapist and looter Mujahedeen who enrich and satiate themselves on Kashmiri money and resources. The Mujahedeen do not remotely have the level of local support that Mukti Bahini or Tibetans have. Same for LTTE. Their fascist ways resulted in alienating local support resulting in their destruction.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 08 Sep 2020 14:27

LakshmanPST wrote:Mukhpari peak came up in the old thread from an old report--->

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7810&start=7720#p2457605

Reposting the link here--->
https://usiofindia.org/publication/usi- ... 0(Map%201)

Unfortunately, deployment was faulty at Chushul. Instead of holding the ridge line east of Chushul which was not held by Chinese at that time, we decided to hold the low ground of Maggar Hill, Gurung Hill and Rezang La. Two most important features which should have been held are Black Top and Mukhpari. By not holding these features we not only denied ourselves observation of Chinese buildup opposite Chushul but also allowed Chinese to roll down on our defences on the low ground. Troops at Gurung Hill, Magar Hill and Rezang La were, therefore, foredoomed.
So, the report mentions that we should have held it in 1962... Looks like we hold it now...

General Thapiyal commanded the division there and his assessment is among the sharpest available. That article clearly articulates how to fight in that area.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Sep 2020 14:36

Tell the PRC commie scumbags that not too many decades ago,a little country called Vietnam burnt their backsides and rubbed their noses in pigshit! India is a nuclear power with a population set to exceed the PRC's in this century! Do they want more casualties in Ladakh or elsewhere fighting against us?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 08 Sep 2020 14:39

“Indian troops' provocation brings disgrace to themselves. They should be forced to retreat by all necessary means. This time the Indian side needs to be taught the rules. India cannot afford a showdown with China on border issues. It lags far behind China in terms of national strength and the so-called strategic support for it from the US is superficial. It's not time for India to display arrogance toward China ".

“China must be prepared for future conflicts and confrontation. China can take further countermeasures along the Line of Actual Control (LAC). If India stirs up conflicts in several spots, it must face the consequence of an all-out confrontation with China along the entire LAC. China doesn't fear going to war to safeguard sovereignty either, and will make itself ready for a long-term confrontation"

“India is weaker than China in terms of national strength, but its strategists and politicians have shown no wisdom in preventing India's China policy from being kidnapped by rising nationalism. This will put India's own interests in jeopardy. India should be careful and not let religious nationalism push the two countries into war.”

"First, India's invasion of Chinese territory is a plain fact. New Delhi's impetuous action stuns the international community. No other country will support India's aggression. Second, India's military strength is far behind that of China. If the conflict between China and India escalates to the intensity where their row has to be resolved through military means, India will surely lose. China cannot afford to "lose an inch" of territory. This is the sacred wish and request of the Chinese people. The PLA's mobility and logistics capability cannot be matched by that of its Indian counterpart. PLA troops may appear in any area beyond the line of actual control that was previously controlled by India. The China-India border area may become a stage where China showcases the achievement of its long-term military development and reforms. India should by no means count on support from the US and Japan because their support is illusory. If India fancies the idea that it has a strategic card to play in the Indian Ocean, it could not be even more naïve. China does hold a lot of cards and can hit India's Achilles' heel, but India has no leverage at all to have a strategic showdown with China.”

“To such an unruly neighbor, China should reciprocate in a language that India can understand. The famous or infamous India bravado is never backed up by substance in its history with China. If memory is short on the Indian side, perhaps there should be a second lesson. China is embarking on a historic mission to be a peaceful, prosperous and powerful nation as it has been in history. It can't afford to be constantly distracted by border skirmishes with India.”

The above were all editorials in Global Times in 2017. I think they cut-and-paste every time.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 08 Sep 2020 14:42

Manu Pubby and couple of other handles reporting same issue

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/13 ... 8031933440

Close quarter standoff near the Mukhpari peak in Chushul continues.

40 PLA soldiers take up positions very close to an India forward post.

Situation very tense.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 08 Sep 2020 14:45

Looks like India occupied one more post near Chushul this Monday, as per GT and the chinese troops might now be close to this post

https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/sta ... 4724278272

The #Indian army again illegally crossed the Line of Actual Control in Shenpao mountain near the south bank of Pangong Tso Lake on Monday, #PLA Western Theater Command spokesperson revealed.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 08 Sep 2020 14:49

hanumadu wrote:
Saurav Jha
@SJha1618
So,
@delhidefence
's analysts have put together this rough estimate of Chinese positions around the Spanggur Tso area using commercially available imagery (but marked on Google Earth). The yellow dots to the West are the ones that have been in contestation of late.

The PLA deployments in this image seems to be wrong. I cant see any PLA road or deployment on the northern side of the Spanggur Tso and the southern banks of Pangong Tso (except for the single road near black top) as of 1/Sep
I used https://apps.sentinel-hub.com/sentinel-playground/ even though low res PLA camps can be spotted due to the pink hut which looks like rashes on the skin

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 08 Sep 2020 15:19

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1303259698624253953

Yeah, there are reports about the PLA having gone to a higher alert status, of JH-7s being loaded with ordnance, air defence radars moving out of training mode and so on. Obviously, things have gotten hot. But, let's see.

chola · Post by **chola** » 08 Sep 2020 15:27

Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1303259698624253953
Yeah, there are reports about the PLA having gone to a higher alert status, of JH-7s being loaded with ordnance, air defence radars moving out of training mode and so on. Obviously, things have gotten hot. But, let's see.

Whoa! We have finally made them go kinetic? Against the IA who commands higher ground where the defender has 4 to 1 advantage? And against a IAF with more and closer bases whose planes can carry full load unlike their few from the rarified air of the plateau?

When the trap is sprung, we'll be surprised by how easy this might turn out (see PLA in Sudan.)

If nothing happens then we'll need to settle into a long-term supply/logistics battle where they simply have more moolah and equipment.

I hate to sound like a warmonger but the first option is the better one.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 08 Sep 2020 15:37

putnanja wrote:Manu Pubby and couple of other handles reporting same issue

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/13 ... 8031933440

Close quarter standoff near the Mukhpari peak in Chushul continues.

40 PLA soldiers take up positions very close to an India forward post.

Situation very tense.

Finally looks like Xi's desire to not back down has been implemented by the local commanders. Eyeball to eyeball troops means a shooting match sooner than later. This is understood by both sides.

Guess, China is trying to put pressure of India/Jaishankar just before he meets his Chinese counterpart. Interesting.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 08 Sep 2020 15:39

https://theprint.in/diplomacy/jaishanka ... kh/497949/
Jaishankar leaves for meeting with China’s Wang but no one’s expecting a breakthrough in Ladakh
Diplomats and analysts say though the Jaishankar-Wang Yi meet might end in stalemate like Rajnath’s meeting with Wei Fenghe, India must keep talking to China.
NAYANIMA BASU, 8 September, 2020
New Delhi: External Affairs Minister S. Jaishankar will hold talks with his Chinese counterpart Wang Yi this week to try and reduce military tensions between the neighbours in Ladakh, but few in New Delhi are expecting a breakthrough.
Jaishankar’s meeting with Wang could also go the same way as Defence Minister Rajnath Singh’s meeting with his Chinese counterpart Wei Fenghe in Moscow last week, where Beijing blamed New Delhi for the tensions, diplomatic sources and analysts said. However, it is important for India to remain engaged with China and keep talking while the Indian Army should continue preparing to spend the winter on the icy Himalayan heights, they said. The Jaishankar-Wang meeting in Moscow on the sidelines of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation foreign ministers’ meeting on 10 September will be their first face-to-face talks this year.
The ministers have spoken twice since the stand-off at the Line of Actual Control in eastern Ladakh began in May, with the second conversation taking place immediately after the Galwan Valley clash on 15 June in which 20 Indian soldiers were killed. Their meeting assumes added significance as Beijing accused the Indian Army of entering Chinese territory at Pangong Tso and firing warning shots at its troops on Monday, the eve of Jaishankar’s departure for Moscow.
.....
Gautam

AshishA · Post by **AshishA** » 08 Sep 2020 15:52

If there is war, will it be limited to the Ladakh or will it spread throughout the border and seas?

A quick end to this war in my opinion, will be taking a huge number of PLA troops hostage. And broadcasting it in social media.

Since chinis are following their Paki friends, maybe we might see a 1971 style surrender.

nishant.gupta · Post by **nishant.gupta** » 08 Sep 2020 15:54

AshishAcharya wrote:If there is war, will it be limited to the Ladakh or will it spread throughout the border and seas?

A quick end to this war in my opinion, will be taking a huge number of PLA troops hostage. And broadcasting it in social media.

Since chinis are following their Paki friends, maybe we might see a 1971 style surrender.

Amen to a '71 style surrender (fingers crossed). That would mean a new country coming up which could have a name "Tibet". Sounds like music to ears!

nam · Post by **nam** » 08 Sep 2020 15:56

chola wrote: Whoa! We have finally made them go kinetic? Against the IA who commands higher ground where the defender has 4 to 1 advantage? And against a IAF with more and closer bases whose planes can carry full load unlike their few from the rarified air of the plateau?

When the trap is sprung, we'll be surprised by how easy this might turn out (see PLA in Sudan.)

If nothing happens then we'll need to settle into a long-term supply/logistics battle where they simply have more moolah and equipment.

Irrespective the Chinis go kinetic or not, they are now trapped in to a logistics battle. More the noise they make, more of PLA needs to spend their time at 15000ft facing a "lowly" Indians instead of TFTA Taiwan & US. Instead of all the glamour of being on CNN as the "biggest threat ever" to US. A superpower army to gasping for breath..

And we will not repeat the mistake of 62, where we kept quiet after the PLA went back..

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 08 Sep 2020 16:05

AshishAcharya wrote:If there is war, will it be limited to the Ladakh or will it spread throughout the border and seas?

A quick end to this war in my opinion, will be taking a huge number of PLA troops hostage. And broadcasting it in social media.

Our ability to track all merchant marine in IOR will ensure that pain and Costs will be inflicted swiftly. Also you cannot take PLA Troops Hostage. You will have to accept their surrender and you cannot broadcast them live on SM or any other media its against the Geneva Convention.

AshishA · Post by **AshishA** » 08 Sep 2020 16:14

pushkar.bhat wrote:
AshishAcharya wrote:If there is war, will it be limited to the Ladakh or will it spread throughout the border and seas?

A quick end to this war in my opinion, will be taking a huge number of PLA troops hostage. And broadcasting it in social media.
Our ability to track all merchant marine in IOR will ensure that pain and Costs will be inflicted swiftly. Also you cannot take PLA Troops Hostage. You will have to accept their surrender and you cannot broadcast them live on SM or any other media its against the Geneva Convention.

Ofc the chances of surrender happening like what happened in 71 war is less but still it's a alternative scenario.

And suppose, we accept their surrender, we can't even take a video of these soldiers laying down arms? Like in case of a video of Paki army in 1971?

Anyway, we might not do it but we can threaten the Chinese that we will do it regardless of the convention right? And since they are paranoid, they might even believe it. After all Pakis also experienced the same.

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 08 Sep 2020 16:30

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Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 08 Sep 2020 16:34

There is a old airstrip few km from the Spanggur Gap and a Indian post between it and the chinese, so its not possible without a fight

Now that IA is sitting on ridges overlooking the gap its very difficult

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 08 Sep 2020 16:35

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pralay · Post by **pralay** » 08 Sep 2020 16:35

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g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 08 Sep 2020 16:39

AshishAcharya wrote:If there is war, will it be limited to the Ladakh or will it spread throughout the border and seas?
A quick end to this war in my opinion, will be taking a huge number of PLA troops hostage. And broadcasting it in social media.
Since chinis are following their Paki friends, maybe we might see a 1971 style surrender.

Anyone can start a war, but the outcome is often unpredictable. While Ladakh is prominent in the current phase of the conflict, and its importance in maintaining the Chinese road to Gadwar is considerable, we must not forget the importance of Tawang and the entire Arunachal Pradesh that is claimed by China as South Tibet. China needs these areas. Again in my humble opinion the conflict between India and China may be just a side show. The main show is elsewhere. Chinese have to gain Taiwan, the South China Sea, subjugate major Asian powers such as Japan, Vietnam, Philippines, South Korea etc., before it can be the top dog in this continent and challenge USA. Unfortunately, China has not been able to cover itself in glory in its conflict with India. I am sure this is being watched and analyzed by all the powers, and conclusions are being drawn. If China is unable to subdue India quickly and convincingly, how can it fight the US? Remember the intense bombing of Yugoslavia and Iraq before the troops entered. I am sure the Chinese remember that. We are indeed living in interesting times.
Gautam

Sonugn · Post by **Sonugn** » 08 Sep 2020 16:41

Ref - Chushul, it was a mistake from a DFI user, that got picked by by either ISPR or Chinese & got amplified.

Shiv Aroor also tweeted about it.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 08 Sep 2020 16:42

Per Jha, skirmishes will spread to other areas if it PLA gets short end of stick.

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 08 Sep 2020 16:44

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