India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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YashG
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by YashG »

RajeevK wrote:
YashG wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/28/us/p ... icity.html

This article is a big deal. In an event of war India could be crippled internally. Maharastra political leader Raut has also acknowledged the same.

Someone in the forum has said this wayback but I thought it was some conspiracy theory but I have now seen this being spoken by several reputed sources. It is quite concerning.
It was more of a cascading effect.
As per Blame game begins between MSETCL, Tata Power over Mumbai power outage
----
Waghmare termed it as an "unprecedented" event, where two of the four lines getting power to Kalwa sub-station got physically snapped -- one was under maintenance and the last one from Kharghar was manually shut on the day as there were sparks observed due to the extra load on Monday.
The islanding system would have saved the day for Mumbai, Waghmare said, adding that the system was specifically created to avoid a total breakdown in services and relies on Tata and Adani''s power generation.

However, two "major units" of Tata were not functional on the given day, Waghmare said, adding that Tata''s power stations are not in grid many a time or may have been under maintenance which delayed their coming on-board.

A 250-MW thermal unit of Adani also stopped generating power the same day at 1300 hrs, aggravating matters, he said.
------
I guess if someone wants to, Adani can be blamed as well. Thankfully Ambani was not involved.
Thanks, I appreciate your inputs. This sounds very plausible.

Also this incident should be used as a plank to phase out Chinese equipment in power sector. BHEL makes good power equipment and they should not be edged out by Chinese.

I'd perhaps wish to actually plant such stories media to create scare for Chinese equipment and try to push BHEL and l & t made equipments to south asian and middle eastern markets. I'd pay nytimes or other us media some money to publish more such stuff. :rotfl:
shaun
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by shaun »

kalwa is a major SLDC, monitors many substations across MH through SCADA RTU
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Neilz »

Pratyush wrote:They seemed quite confident that they could not be hacked by anyone. Because they had no external network connection.

Take it for what it's worth.
With my limited exposer in developing such equipment, I think to a very large extent it is true. Not only for India but possibly for all countries/installation.

Point is, these system (not equipment alone) comes under "safe" operation procedure and to be certified for all eventualities. So by design, in any powerplant all equipment are "off-line". They are completely isolated from any communication medium other one accepted and agreed. Which you can translate into - no com with outside world. Any interface USB or otherwise are completely disabled. Even any update simply can not be put through unless there is a BIIIIIG proven need for it by the customer/plant management. Even when OEM tech comes for any update or upgrade there is serious protocol in place to access + carryout activity. Stories are there 20+ years OEM not allowed to touch an equipment.

And yes, every equipment is heavily customized. There is nothing can be ordered off-the self. Each equipment ordered get to minute details of activity needed, once the order is placed , OEM takes month to test and verify it for all +ve and -ve cases as per the ordered config. i.e. nothing must works except the one needed. Once it is delivered, again it goes through test/verification by install agency. After all these grueling steps it goes "online" within plant network.

So, unless there is a physical breaking / sabotage activity which needs connivance of many to breach many layered of security. It practically impossible to "Hack". Hollywood is not real life.

There are many vital data generated equipment which works on neural network logic to arrive "data" and again the decision maker could be plural and use neural network to assert for final action.

Also, even the isolated network could be parallel comm.

Also, it is designed as layered + distributed way. So induce a complete failure is almost impossible.

So, yes, this is designed to be very very resilient at every step. Run your wild imagination and think the possibility of combination to reach a absolute trigger point where no commonality available to refer.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by vikassh »

Came across this interview between Maj Arya and Lt Gen Syed Ata Hasnain. Gen saab says if there is no political dialogue between the leadership of two countries then at max the ceasefire may last for 6 months. He also feels there is very less chance of this dialogue because of bad mouthing by Imran. Here is the link:

ramana
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ramana »

Looks like Lt Gen Panag is spitting opinions in Print.

https://twitter.com/ramana_brf/status/1 ... 81152?s=20
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ramana »

A few x-posts....
Vips wrote:Govt okays 12 new SSB battalions for Nepal, Bhutan borders.

The government has sanctioned a dozen fresh SSB battalions, comprising over 13,000 personnel for the Nepal and Bhutan borders guarding force, to "fortify" defences along these fronts including the tri-junction area in Sikkim that adjoins Bhutan and Tibet, officials said.

Though the Union home ministry has denied creation of a new field frontier for the border force, it has allowed the SSB to create one out of three new sector -- responsible for the operations of about 5-6 battalions -- and it is expected to come up in the Delhi-NCR region.

The Sashastra Seema Bal (SSB), with an estimated strength of about 90,000 personnel, is the designated force to guard the open Indian fronts with Nepal (1,751 km) and Bhutan (699 km).

SSB Director General (DG) Kumar Rajesh Chandra told PTI that the 12 new battalions will be raised in phases, three units each over the next four years. "It is very supportive of the government to have given the sanction to raise new battalions and establishments for the SSB. The new manpower will ensure that border security is strengthened," the DG said.

The SSB chief added that the government has also sanctioned a total of 548 posts to the force for deployment at four ICPs (integrated check posts) along the Nepal border out of which two are already operational at Jogbani and Raxaul (both in Bihar). "We are thankful to the home ministry as these sanctions have come at a time when no new posts are being created. We are in the process to further implement the new approvals obtained," Chandra said.

As per an official proposal of the border force approved by the ministry of home affairs (MHA), the new battalions will be used to reduce inter-border outpost distance, strengthen trade and transit routes along Nepal and Bhutan and fortifying SSB' strength in the tri-junction area in Sikkim. The tri-junction area is the plateau between India, Bhutan and Tibet and the SSB is deployed just below it on the southern side as part of its mandate to guard the front with Bhutan.

The militaries of India and China had witnessed an over 70-day standoff in the Doklam at the tri-junction in 2017.

The new manpower will also help the SSB, as per the proposal, in upgrading the existing border posts at "strategically important" locations along the two fronts and providing armed security to the eight integrated check posts along these fronts.

Officials said the blueprint for sanction of new battalions and establishments for the force was drawn after Union Home Minister Amit Shah reviewed the operations of the SSB in October, 2019 and directed it conduct a “vulnerability assessment and gap analysis” of the two borders it secures.

The SSB, after completing this task, informed the MHA that it would require 12 new battalions, a frontier headquarter and at least three sector headquarters that would be used to enhance logistical and administrative support to its border units and some of those deployed for internal security duties in the hinterland.

However, the home ministry, approved only a sector formation and 12 battalions to be raised in phases in view of the given financial space, officials said. A battalion has a strength of over 1,000 personnel.

The remaining two sectors and a frontier are also expected to be sanctioned by the home ministry in the next phase, they said.

A sector formation of a paramilitary or central armed police force (CAPF) is responsible for the operations of about 5-6 battalions and is headed by a deputy inspector general (DIG) rank officer. About two-four sectors form a frontier that is headed by an IG-rank officer.
So a SSB sector is like a brigade and a frontier is a division equivalent
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ramana »

ks_sachin wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:I agree, , yes there were some casualties in mine laying etc .
Some casualties... that was the bulk. Please don’t minimise a FU....
and
Aditya_V wrote:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 016284.cms
The number of Army personnel killed or wounded in Jammu and Kashmir and the western sector during the mobilisation, Operation Parakram, from December 19, 2001, to October 16, 2002, was 1,874," said Defence Minister George Fernandes.

In the initial phase of Operation Parakram itself, after the December 2001 Parliament attack, over 100 soldiers were killed and 250 injured during mine-laying operations.

Vehicle accidents, artillery duels with Pakistan and other incidents led to many more casualties.
I do not think 350/1874(killed 100 out of 798 soldiers, accidents and incidents yes 50, but around 600 Indian Soldiers died on the LOC) becomes the bulk, the media which is dominated by the pro Paki group refused to tell the truth regarding the bleeding of Pakistani Army suffered during Operation Parakram and how the only logical reason for the Godhra train burning was to take the pressure of the Pakistani Army.

It is like today we do not know if Pakistanis, Bangladeshis or even Congress, AAP supporting personal attacked Sikhs in Sydney Australia but BJP gets blamed. A Media narrative is not always correct.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ramana »

My comment in posting here is laying and clearing mines is a dangerous task. So don't call it FU.

Very disrespectful of those who died.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Pratyush »

vikassh wrote:Came across this interview between Maj Arya and Lt Gen Syed Ata Hasnain. Gen saab says if there is no political dialogue between the leadership of two countries then at max the ceasefire may last for 6 months. He also feels there is very less chance of this dialogue because of bad mouthing by Imran. Here is the link:

Lt Gen Syed Ata Hasnain is amongst the wisest men in present times and it is always interesting to hear what he has to say.

I tried to watch the opinion piece by Lt Gen Panag on print channel on youtube and I found that his political opinions have taken away his ability to objectively view any action by the Modi government.

He has either forgotten the numerous efforts to engage both PRC and TSP. Or has chosen to ignore them in order to further his agenda.

It is sad watching the decline of a man who had served the nation with distinction.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by darshhan »

ramana wrote:A few x-posts....
Vips wrote:Govt okays 12 new SSB battalions for Nepal, Bhutan borders.

The government has sanctioned a dozen fresh SSB battalions, comprising over 13,000 personnel for the Nepal and Bhutan borders guarding force, to "fortify" defences along these fronts including the tri-junction area in Sikkim that adjoins Bhutan and Tibet, officials said.

Though the Union home ministry has denied creation of a new field frontier for the border force, it has allowed the SSB to create one out of three new sector -- responsible for the operations of about 5-6 battalions -- and it is expected to come up in the Delhi-NCR region.

The Sashastra Seema Bal (SSB), with an estimated strength of about 90,000 personnel, is the designated force to guard the open Indian fronts with Nepal (1,751 km) and Bhutan (699 km).

SSB Director General (DG) Kumar Rajesh Chandra told PTI that the 12 new battalions will be raised in phases, three units each over the next four years. "It is very supportive of the government to have given the sanction to raise new battalions and establishments for the SSB. The new manpower will ensure that border security is strengthened," the DG said.

The SSB chief added that the government has also sanctioned a total of 548 posts to the force for deployment at four ICPs (integrated check posts) along the Nepal border out of which two are already operational at Jogbani and Raxaul (both in Bihar). "We are thankful to the home ministry as these sanctions have come at a time when no new posts are being created. We are in the process to further implement the new approvals obtained," Chandra said.

As per an official proposal of the border force approved by the ministry of home affairs (MHA), the new battalions will be used to reduce inter-border outpost distance, strengthen trade and transit routes along Nepal and Bhutan and fortifying SSB' strength in the tri-junction area in Sikkim. The tri-junction area is the plateau between India, Bhutan and Tibet and the SSB is deployed just below it on the southern side as part of its mandate to guard the front with Bhutan.

The militaries of India and China had witnessed an over 70-day standoff in the Doklam at the tri-junction in 2017.

The new manpower will also help the SSB, as per the proposal, in upgrading the existing border posts at "strategically important" locations along the two fronts and providing armed security to the eight integrated check posts along these fronts.

Officials said the blueprint for sanction of new battalions and establishments for the force was drawn after Union Home Minister Amit Shah reviewed the operations of the SSB in October, 2019 and directed it conduct a “vulnerability assessment and gap analysis” of the two borders it secures.

The SSB, after completing this task, informed the MHA that it would require 12 new battalions, a frontier headquarter and at least three sector headquarters that would be used to enhance logistical and administrative support to its border units and some of those deployed for internal security duties in the hinterland.

However, the home ministry, approved only a sector formation and 12 battalions to be raised in phases in view of the given financial space, officials said. A battalion has a strength of over 1,000 personnel.

The remaining two sectors and a frontier are also expected to be sanctioned by the home ministry in the next phase, they said.

A sector formation of a paramilitary or central armed police force (CAPF) is responsible for the operations of about 5-6 battalions and is headed by a deputy inspector general (DIG) rank officer. About two-four sectors form a frontier that is headed by an IG-rank officer.
So a SSB sector is like a brigade and a frontier is a division equivalent
More like a jobs program. Most of these new recruits will never see any action in their lifetimes but will take more than 1 - 1.5 Crore salary over the period on individual basis. Training, outfitting and pension costs will be extra. While other countries continue to automate their border surveillance and secutity duties using drones, sensors, UGVs etc, we continue to go manpower intensive even for tasks that can easily be automated.

Looks like instead of screwing the enemy, the strategy of our national security apparatus is to screw the taxpayer.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by YashG »

Actually in a Shekhar Gupta video I saw him making a case for GoI to make peace with Pakistan and take on China. Few days later this news of ceasefire agreement with Pakistan came along.

I was wondering if Shekhar knew this or GoI has been listening to him?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Pratyush »

^^^

The video was after the ceasefire announcement.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by YashG »

^^^
No! The video whr i heard Gupta talking about making peace with pakistan came out on 20th Feb.

https://youtu.be/KN26InGoVQI

Ceasefire agreement came later. Gupta made a video on that too.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Pratyush »

YashG wrote:^^^
No! The video whr i heard Gupta talking about making peace with pakistan came out on 20th Feb.

https://youtu.be/KN26InGoVQI

Ceasefire agreement came later. Gupta made a video on that too.

A decision of this magnitude is never made on the feedback from one source and never in such time frame.

Remember that the rats boss had also advocated peace with India early last month.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by YashG »

Pratyush wrote:
YashG wrote:^^^
No! The video whr i heard Gupta talking about making peace with pakistan came out on 20th Feb.

https://youtu.be/KN26InGoVQI

Ceasefire agreement came later. Gupta made a video on that too.

A decision of this magnitude is never made on the feedback from one source and never in such time frame.

Remember that the rats boss had also advocated peace with India early last month.
Fair enough!
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by fanne »

Most importantly was that just a random coincidence or is that there is a leakage and coupta/bif has a source inside
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by AkshaySG »

fanne wrote:Most importantly was that just a random coincidence or is that there is a leakage and coupta/bif has a source inside
Neither ... At any point in the situation there are several schools of thought which each advocate different ways to proceed , Just because one of them ended up happening doesn't mean it was a co-incidence or a source leaked it .


That is not say that Coupta has no sources or that the govt listened to him but simply that he was advocating a proposal that several others in and around the establishment had already suggested , Namely a momentary ceasefire with Pak while we re-evaluate and re-arm for another summer of incursions
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Cyrano »

Gents,
Its been 2 weeks since the ceasefire agreement on LoC came into effect, and the good news is that we have not heard of any complaints of violation of this ceasefire from either side.

Our border troops can get some R&R, equipment and facilities like sangars, bunkers, depots and forward bases can get some needed maintenance and overhaul. Border fences will be repaired and strengthened where needed.

IDEM for the PA troops across the border.

Most importantly civilians living along the LoC are getting some respite and relief.

All this is good. But nothing in the fundamental nature of our neighbour has changed, the factors that led to the pre-ceasefire situation remain still at work, 100s of jehadi fodder await in terror camps in PoK to be launched into India, their few remaining buddies on this side are laying low for now. The fire has not been extinguished, the Pakis merely stopped adding wood and fanning it. Those who need and benefit from this fire will do something to stoke it sooner or later.

At the same time, we have maximum chances of putting out this fire when its simmering in embers like now. So what must the GoI and the forces do now in an attempt to extinguish it? Is it unrealistic to expect it can be put out for good? Is it too early to think of extinguishing it? We should see if the ceasefire can last 3 or 6 months while remaining alert with powder dry?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Cyrano »

We need to watch this again and again. The most cogent explanation of why the Chinese have been aggressive in Ladakh by Ambassador Stobdan (a Ladhaki) and wisest advice on how to counter it not just by military means, but with narrative based on history, and with culture based on a fine understanding of the entire Himalayan region's peoples.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by venkat_kv »

darshhan wrote:
ramana wrote:snip ....
More like a jobs program. Most of these new recruits will never see any action in their lifetimes but will take more than 1 - 1.5 Crore salary over the period on individual basis. Training, outfitting and pension costs will be extra. While other countries continue to automate their border surveillance and secutity duties using drones, sensors, UGVs etc, we continue to go manpower intensive even for tasks that can easily be automated.

Looks like instead of screwing the enemy, the strategy of our national security apparatus is to screw the taxpayer.
Darshhan Saar,
while it may be a jobs program, the numbers discussed here are 12000. Automating the border surveillance is fine, that too costs money and tech that we are still to make on our own. currently most of the indigenous drones are in tests and we seem to be using foreign origin drones for our tasks.
Not to mention that we will need associated infra to be built there so troops can be surged as and when needed. that would mean multiple roads and entry and exit points.
A cheaper way currently would be to have men manning the place as physical presence means claims to the land and also act as a deterrance for border incursions/salami slicing every year by the chinese with so called differing perceptions of border.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Armuan »

Breakthrough eludes 7th round of China talks

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/trending ... li=AAggbRN

The article is very brief and does have have too many details though. Not sure if we were hoping to make a breakthrough in this round, or slowly working towards stepwise.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by venkat_kv »

Armuan wrote:Breakthrough eludes 7th round of China talks

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/trending ... li=AAggbRN

The article is very brief and does have have too many details though. Not sure if we were hoping to make a breakthrough in this round, or slowly working towards stepwise.
is this completely new round numbering after dis-engagement? I thought we were already through 10 or was it 11 before the Chinese agreed to pack up their production houses on border "The might of PLA, fear us or else we will huff and puff and leave quietly with warm tents, guangduo and hot packs delivered by drones.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Deans »

venkat_kv wrote:
Armuan wrote:Breakthrough eludes 7th round of China talks

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/trending ... li=AAggbRN

The article is very brief and does have have too many details though. Not sure if we were hoping to make a breakthrough in this round, or slowly working towards stepwise.
is this completely new round numbering after dis-engagement? I thought we were already through 10 or was it 11 before the Chinese agreed to pack up their production houses on border "The might of PLA, fear us or else we will huff and puff and leave quietly with warm tents, guangduo and hot packs delivered by drones.
My understanding is that this is a separate series of diplomat led talks, discussing the whole LAC and not the Corps commander level talks discussing the LAC in Ladakh only.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by shyamd »

shyamd wrote: ---------------------------------------
The other interesting thing is GOI, Paris and Aussies are creating a new framework for Indian Ocean separate to the Quad (US/Aus/Ind/Jap) grouping. All three have agreed to join hands. Paris is promising ISR, Rafale, Submarines + cash support. Aussies have bought french subs. Shringla visit to capital said GOI is worried Gwadar and Hambantota can quickly be converted into a naval facility in the future.
Link
While India and France discussed China and its role in the Indo-Pacific and Indian Ocean, Paris has invited Indian Navy to participate in European Maritime Awareness in the Straits of Hormuz (EMSOH) as well as use facilities at the French base in Djibouti on the Horn of Africa. On China, the two sides have decided to build maritime capabilities to ensure that international maritime law is followed in both Indo-Pacific and Indian Ocean through joint surveillance and sharing of intelligence. France’s Chief Military Advisor also accompanied envoy Bonne. France has also offered India to join in trilateral naval exercises with UAE, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia and Australia.
---------------------------------
GOI is conducting strategic communications that If there is no forward movement on withdrawal once the snow melts there will be escalation.

- A5 brandished at full operational mode in multiple locations (Vajpayee model)
- Movement of troops forward - Army plans to keep 2 strike corps for mountains facing China amid Ladakh crisis
- Guided artillery and other equipment
- Friendly countries have promised to provide additional transport and A2A refuelling as well as logistic equipment (example given in above article of UAE/France there are others too in the region)
- GOI greenlight will be given at very short notice to undertake an offensive operation.
And Much more.

COAS visit to forward areas was to communicate this directly with key individuals in IA.

Notice to effect will be very short but will but within boundaries of international law.
-----------
Adding to the above about Indo-France

- French joining exercises to take place in Bay of Bengal also with the Quad (US/Jap/Aus/IN)
- French are proposing amphibious drills - these will be conducted at the joint level (Air, Navy, Land)
- French bases in Polynesia and Caledonia are currently being upgraded
- French/Jap/GOI held a nat sec workshop last month
- GIGN training with NSG
----------------------------------------------------
Above now formally confirmed...
Quad, France and UAE join hands in 2 naval exercises to dominate Indo-Pacific
The UAE will be joining India and France for the first time in a trilateral naval exercise in the strategically important Persian Gulf and the Gulf of Oman in late April under the Varuna banner. This is scheduled between April 25 and 27.

While dates of the QUAD-plus France naval exercise has to be firmed up on paper, India, the US, Australia, and Japan (the members of QUAD), with France will showcase their naval strength and commitment to freedom of navigation in the Bay of Bengal from April 4 to 7 with missile-guided destroyers, frigates, submarines and surveillance aircraft practising complex manoeuvres under the La Perouse banner.

Both La Perouse and Varuna last took place in 2019, but were cancelled due to global pandemic last year. UAE’s naval chief confirmed his country’s participation in the Varuna trilateral exercises.
According to a former Indian Navy western commander who asked not to be named, La Perouse shows that the QUAD-plus maritime force can work together anywhere in the Indo-Pacific as there is convergence on shared values, democracy, freedom of navigation and cooperation. The aim of the QUAD-plus navies is to project dominance in the Indo-Pacific from the Gulf of Aden to the north and far Pacific, touching the western coast of US.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Atmavik »

Cyrano wrote:We need to watch this again and again. The most cogent explanation of why the Chinese have been aggressive in Ladakh by Ambassador Stobdan (a Ladhaki) and wisest advice on how to counter it not just by military means, but with narrative based on history, and with culture based on a fine understanding of the entire Himalayan region's peoples.
this is a Must watch. make this man the HRD minister. looks like making Ladhak a UT was a major shift that irked the chinesee. we also need to encourage tourism to ladhak.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by vijayk »

Watched it fully. awesomely articulated

Why don't have ambassador Phunchok Stobdan kind of people on revising History textbooks?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by krishna_krishna »

Atmavik wrote:
Cyrano wrote:We need to watch this again and again. The most cogent explanation of why the Chinese have been aggressive in Ladakh by Ambassador Stobdan (a Ladhaki) and wisest advice on how to counter it not just by military means, but with narrative based on history, and with culture based on a fine understanding of the entire Himalayan region's peoples.
this is a Must watch. make this man the HRD minister. looks like making Ladhak a UT was a major shift that irked the chinesee. we also need to encourage tourism to ladhak.
One word, Amazing. This explains why chinois asked for two closed door unsc meetings on art 370 abrogation at quick timeframe was due to new creation of UT Ladakh that chops of their future 50 years strategy that they had planned with porkies with joint command et al and worried as Indians have started understanding them , dissecting their strategy and showing spine to counter them. This was going to put great chimp zu xi strategy in cold freezer but still they could not do zilch about it. Something happened in 59 and this was the new front to cement that narrative.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ks_sachin »

krishna_krishna wrote:
Atmavik wrote:
this is a Must watch. make this man the HRD minister. looks like making Ladhak a UT was a major shift that irked the chinesee. we also need to encourage tourism to ladhak.
One word , Amazing. This explains why chinois asked for two closed door unsc meetings on art 370 abrogation at quick timeframe was due to new creation of UT Ladakh that chops of their future 50 years strategy that they had planned with porkies with joint command et al and worried as Indians have started understanding them , dissecting their strategy and showing spine to counter them. This was going to put great chimp zu xi strategy in cold freezer but still they could not do zilch about it. Something happened in 59 and this was the new front to cement that narrative.
Have we started understanding them?
We should have expected their reaction then no rather than being reactive...
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by krishna_krishna »

ks_sachin wrote:
krishna_krishna wrote:
One word , Amazing. This explains why chinois asked for two closed door unsc meetings on art 370 abrogation at quick timeframe was due to new creation of UT Ladakh that chops of their future 50 years strategy that they had planned with porkies with joint command et al and worried as Indians have started understanding them , dissecting their strategy and showing spine to counter them. This was going to put great chimp zu xi strategy in cold freezer but still they could not do zilch about it. Something happened in 59 and this was the new front to cement that narrative.
Have we started understanding them?
We should have expected their reaction then no rather than being reactive...
Please read what I mean is long term strategic designs, we definitely failed in dissecting short term response or underestimated the level to which Chinese will go to respond to this move all our eyes where on porkies but nevertheless in that context you can apply your argument to chinkis too they never expected our reaction in kailash range and where being reactive from July onwards.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Raman »

I don't recall where I read this - it was some time ago, but the conversation of 100+ year plans and the Chinese reminded me of it. The Chinese believe that they will take over most parts of Russia in the long term. The falling population of Russia and global warming means that vast pasts of Siberia will become arable and yet under populated. There is only Mongolia in between, which is both small and historically connected to the QIng dynasty. I wonder if the Russians also see the writing on the wall and are trying to find an early strategic accommodation.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ArjunPandit »

^^you can assume russians to be everything but not the ones who take things lying down or giving land that they believe is theirs. Population is failing for now. They lost 15-16% of entire population and much more of able bodied man during WW2 but didnt think of surrendering to hitler. Xitler and his descendants a long road to travel to threaten the bear and russians lot of skies to climb down before they think of finding a strategic accommodation. They will do what they have done in past, spoil the party. They might enter in some sort of strategic agreement to fend the monster away, till they recuperate and when the monster strikes them they will hit it back. Of all the nations, i am yet to hear russians of getting affected with wokeism and they have a good memory. They do remember how chinese sided with US during later phases of Cold war. So they will play happily untill they wont and then they will act.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

For long, we in BRF had suggested division of Pakistan for a more peaceful environment and neighbourhood. Later, it was picked up by American analysts as well. Now, let's propose a similar division of PRC. In any case, all the peripheral areas of China North, North-East, West and South-West were annexed only in the last century by force. The historical claims of China are pure fake. These should go.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ks_sachin »

SSridhar wrote:For long, we in BRF had suggested division of Pakistan for a more peaceful environment and neighbourhood. Later, it was picked up by American analysts as well. Now, let's propose a similar division of PRC. In any case, all the peripheral areas of China North, North-East, West and South-West were annexed only in the last century by force. The historical claims of China are pure fake. These should go.
Please make it clear that we only want the land and not the people....
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by NRao »

SSridhar wrote:For long, we in BRF had suggested division of Pakistan for a more peaceful environment and neighbourhood. Later, it was picked up by American analysts as well. Now, let's propose a similar division of PRC. In any case, all the peripheral areas of China North, North-East, West and South-West were annexed only in the last century by force. The historical claims of China are pure fake. These should go.
Seriously, we need another thread for that topic, in which we need to ID Han vs. non-Han areas, based on which we should divide.

And, would suggest yet another for Indo-Tibet and another for Xinjiang - this to establish Indo claims.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Aditya_V »

SSridhar wrote:For long, we in BRF had suggested division of Pakistan for a more peaceful environment and neighborhood. Later, it was picked up by American analysts as well. Now, let's propose a similar division of PRC. In any case, all the peripheral areas of China North, North-East, West and South-West were annexed only in the last century by force. The historical claims of China are pure fake. These should go.
+1 Billion, in 1959-62 till date, it has been might is right by PRC, they just used our weak infrastructure, leadership and ecosystem which gave us General Thapar to their advantage,

And see how is son Karan Thapar has insulted Sam Manekshaw. General Thapar's father also gave an award to Dwyer for Jailwal wala Bagh. Funny how the pre independence Coterie close to the British mainly based in Lahore were given the whole subcontinent. The muslim elite Pakistan and Hindu/Sikh elements were quietly moved to Delhi while the masses were massacred .
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

An Idea about Ethnic Chinese Minorities - Chennai Center for China Studies
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

ks_sachin wrote:Please make it clear that we only want the land and not the people....
We don't event want those lands. These lands, out of Chinese occupation, should act as buffers between China and various nation-states such as us, Myanmar, Russia, the Stan states et al. Of course, Ladakh, Shaksgam, Barahoti are ours and must be restored to us.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by TKiran »

SS sir, there's suggestion from Ambassador Stobdan that Tibet as such is not uniform, upon a bit of research, Kailash Mansarovar had always been totally Hindu and the yogis who used to live in the Caves of Kailash Range were entirely Hindus and Hindus had a much more evolved practices of Meditation and Pranayama completely different to Tibetan Budhdhist practices. (For example, in 1922, Thirumalai Krishnamacharya went to Kailash Mansarovar (He was Shri Vaishnava) and learnt Shivaishnava Yogic Practices from Acharya Ramamohana Bramhachari for 7 years till 1929. Some techniques were so evolved and secret that, Thirumalai Krishnamacharya was able to stop his heart beat for 10 minutes. In his autobiography written by his son Late TKV Desikachar, some important aspects of life of Thirumalai Krishnamacharya in Tibet and some manuscripts and drawings etc were shown.

As Thirumalai Krishnamacharya wanted to continue his life of a Yogi in Himalayas, his guru sensing the danger to Hindu (more specifically Shri Vaishnava tradition of Yoga practice, ordered him to teach the techniques of Yoga to one and all as apadhdharma (aapadhdharma is when something is eroding such as knowledge of Yoga etc which are secrets, you can teach to anybody who is interested irrespective of if that person is Brahmin or Shudra or Ladies or even mlechcha etc in order to preserve the Shastra)

With the order of his guru, Thirumalai Krishnamacharya dedicated his whole life to teaching Yoga and created legendary students such as BKS Iyengar, Pattabhi Jois, Indra Devi, TKV Desikachar etc, and spread Yoga worldwide though his technique was directly from Tibetan Hindu Yogic Techniques.

The reason I had to explain the Hindu Yogies of Himalayas in 1920 s is to shed light on the Historical background that Tibet belongs to Hindus. Especially the Tibet as seen today is only half of the Tibet Atonomous Region, as occupied by the PLA in 1959. Almost half of it was annexed with other regions after the blunder of 2003 by Vajpayee. But still it's blessing in disguise for us as Lhasa is nothing but Kailasa with missing Kai. And Hindus have claim to the entire Tibet as it existing today with Dalai Lama or without Dalai Lama. These are historical facts, in fact there were millions of scriptures of Sanskrit written in Tibetan script which talk about Shrivaishnava Sidhdhantas in Potala Palace which were destroyed by PLA just a couple of years ago. Lhasa belongs to Hindus, both Shrivaishnava and Smarthas (we can decide later which sect of Hindus later once Lhasa is annexed to India).

Tibet has to be annexed to India we can have other provinces as buffers between Han China and India (with Tibet annexed)
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Manish_Sharma »

@ColRamit:

Maj went to consult doctor

Maj: I think Amoxicillin is better than Ampiclllin. 1-0-1 with antacids & B Complex for 3 days

Doc (laughing): I’ve done MBBS, MD & prac for 28 yrs. U think U know better?

Maj: But U2 tweet on how Army should deploy in Fingers Z in Ladakh

Silence
:rotfl:

https://twitter.com/ColRamit/status/137 ... 88352?s=19
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by KLNMurthy »

Cyrano wrote:We need to watch this again and again. The most cogent explanation of why the Chinese have been aggressive in Ladakh by Ambassador Stobdan (a Ladhaki) and wisest advice on how to counter it not just by military means, but with narrative based on history, and with culture based on a fine understanding of the entire Himalayan region's peoples.
Thanks for posting this. One of the most educational and satisfying things I have seen.
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