India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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shyamd
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by shyamd »

My update on Afghan thread regarding regional situation. x post.
Update 19th Nov
- Update on regional conference in Delhi below
- NSA met with Tajik counterpart the day before Delhi conference where a number of agreements were signed
- First step is to increase IAF deployment in Gissar.
- Akash ADS to be deployed and a radar network being set up (or possibly already deployed)
- Both parties agreed to support Saleh led govt
- A former indian ambassador who coordinated Indian action in 2001 has been asked to take the lead on strategic elements with Dushanbe, particularly on support to Saleh led govt.
- IAF may have already conducted air strikes due to intervention by TSPA on Panjshir. I had already mentioned SSG were providing support to Taleban. :twisted: :twisted:
Haridas
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Haridas »

ldev wrote:China biggest security threat, says General Bipin Rawat
TNN / Updated: Nov 13, 2021, 05:00 IST

NEW DELHI: China is the biggest security threat facing India, "much bigger" than Pakistan and the country is prepared to deal with "any misadventure" on "the land borders or the high seas" chief of Defence Staff General Bipin Rawat said.

Asked whether China was "enemy number 1" at the Times Now Summit on Thursday evening General Rawat said there was "no doubt" about it. "The threat on the northern border is much bigger" he said.
Much water has flowed down the Ganga since George Fernandes as Defence Minister made the same statement in 1998.....this time there is no criticism ...the times are a-changing.
Since 2001 in my address to Kendriya Vidyala students, and my alma_mator collage I have been emphasizing that China is our immediate enemy and USA the strategic competitor. :D
I am a no body foot soldier compared to George kaka.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Aditya_V »

Haridas wrote:
ldev wrote:China biggest security threat, says General Bipin Rawat



Much water has flowed down the Ganga since George Fernandes as Defence Minister made the same statement in 1998.....this time there is no criticism ...the times are a-changing.
Since 2001 in my address to Kendriya Vidyala students, and my alma_mator collage I have been emphasizing that China is our immediate enemy and USA the strategic competitor. :D
I am a no body foot soldier compared to George kaka.
But Pakistan is a clear present danger used as a tool by these 2, without securing this front nothing can be achieved.
Haridas
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Haridas »

^^^ Puppeteer is the principal enemy, not the puppet !
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Aditya_V »

Haridas wrote:^^^ Puppeteer is the principal enemy, not the puppet !
If puppet is removed Puppeteer will have to come out, puppet hatred is a very big danger, needs to defanged, I.e depopulated first.

Puppets is of it's own choice, does not get afree pass and needs to pay the necessary price for its action.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Prem Kumar »

Thanks Karan M. Yes, I've read those reports. Maybe I was being too harsh on RM Rajnath Singh. My point was not that he hasn't done much (I know facts to the contrary - the "negative imports list" being one such). But for making step-changes like getting the IAF to get onboard with the Tejas, we need a man of Parikkar's calibre.

My point was also that Modi needs to get more hands-on regarding Defense. Yes, his plate is more than overflowing. And very likely, he's also behind the scenes involved in setting the agenda like Defense corridor, Atmanirbhar etc. But there are some deadlocks that need to be resolved which we discuss ad nauseum on the forum: example: getting the forces fully committed to Atmanirbhar (they do pay lip-service sometimes) or to prevent MoD babus from introducing loopholes in the negative import list etc.

Just like the Jal Jeevan, Cowin, Jan Dhan or other schemes, he needs to create a monitoring dashboard (need not be public) in which performance benchmarks are set and measured. I think, without his interventions, loopholes will continue to be exploited and we won't realize the full vision. Its unfortunate that the PM has to be personally involved in so many projects, but this is one which needs to be in his monitoring radar.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by shyamd »

^^ the Armed forces establishment is aware of what it needs to do and is now incentivized to push indigenization. There are enough organizations checking the checkers, who check the programme managers.. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were more people checking than doing

Unfortunately there aren’t enough talented ministers/politicians out there. PM has tried.

Even Parikkar found Def Ministry tough… it’s not an easy place due to the myriad interests that operate.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by rohitvats »

Gogra & Hot Springs - Chang Chenmo Sector Explained (Part-1)

- I've created a YT video where I've explained the geographical setting and challenges of the Chang Chenmo Sector, where Gogra and Hot Springs points are located.

- In second, and concluding part on this sector, I'll explain the military nuances for both the sides.

- Please do have a look, and share your feedback and comment.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ldev »

Haridas wrote:
ldev wrote:China biggest security threat, says General Bipin Rawat



Much water has flowed down the Ganga since George Fernandes as Defence Minister made the same statement in 1998.....this time there is no criticism ...the times are a-changing.
Since 2001 in my address to Kendriya Vidyala students, and my alma_mator collage I have been emphasizing that China is our immediate enemy and USA the strategic competitor. :D
I am a no body foot soldier compared to George kaka.
Consider the fact that when George Fernandes made this statement the US was in a full on love fest with China. Clinton was working on getting China into the WTO and was contemplating a G-2 with China being handled "responsibility" to manage the India-Pakistan conflict. Also at the same time India was negotiating with the US to avoid US economic sanctions because of the nuclear tests. And although he was India's Defence Minister, after he made this statement the NDA Government dis-owned this statement and said that the views expressed by George Fernandes are his personal views and do not reflect the official position of GOI!! Knowing all these under currents George Fernandes still made that statement!!
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

ldev, Clinton also revealed to China the contents of the letter that Vajpayee had written to him substantiating that point about China. Clinton asked China to draft the UNSC Resolution too (Resolution 1172)
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ldev »

SSridhar wrote:ldev, Clinton also revealed to China the contents of the letter that Vajpayee had written to him substantiating that point about China. Clinton asked China to draft the UNSC Resolution too (Resolution 1172)
I recently read the memoirs of Robert (Bob) M Gates, published in 2014. His resume is well known having served in different capacities during the Reagan, George HW Bush, George W Bush and Obama Administrations i.e. a true establishment figure and bipartisan. What is interesting is that in his memoirs which in paperback runs to 595 pages, only 7 pages are devoted to Asia and China is sandwiched in that 7 page Asia section!! Goes to show where US priorities were as late as the beginning of the last decade.

There is one paragraph where Gates is a speaker at the Shangri La Dialogue in Singapore in June 2010 where the issue of US arms sales to Taiwan comes up after his talk:
In the question answer session a retired PLA General aggressively pursued the Taiwan arms sales issue. I replied that the Chinese had known full well at the time that we normalized diplomatic relations in 1979 that arms sales to Taiwan would continue. Why, then, I asked did China still pursue this line? The General's response was as direct as it was revealing. China had lived with the Taiwan arms sales in 1979 he said "because we were weak. But now we are strong"
That response from the Chinese General is an eye opener and is how China conducts it's external relationships to this day and that is also applicable to the boundary issue with India. In a nutshell it boils down to the fact that as China becomes stronger it will do what it could not do when it was weaker. It will take or attempt to take what it wants because it is stronger. What is also shocking is that after this clear warning about Chinese behavior was telegraphed to a senior US person such as Gates way back in 2010, the US essentially did not change strategic course vis a vis China for almost the next decade.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Yagnasri »

Not really. There is an extensive Chinese infiltration of the US establishment. There are also a considerable amount of business and trade interests that stoped any thinking about the threat of China openly.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by V_Raman »

The fact is they cannot do anything practically due to economy - that is why they proposed G2.

The only president who went off script was Trump - we all know how that turned out.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by rohitvats »

(1) In this second, and concluding part on Chang Chenmo Sector, I will be discussing the strategic importance of this sector from both the Indian and the Chinese perspective.

(2) We will see how the Chang Chenmo Sector can be used a firm base by India to launch offensive in the upper reaches of Galwan River Valley, and target Chinese positions from rear in Fingers Area and Khurnak Fort.

(3) I will also present possible Chinese actions in this sector.

(4) It will also become clear why the Chinese chose Hot Springs as one of the points of intrusion, and why they are reluctant to completely disengage in this sector.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

ldev wrote:That response from the Chinese General is an eye opener and is how China conducts it's external relationships to this day and that is also applicable to the boundary issue with India. In a nutshell it boils down to the fact that as China becomes stronger it will do what it could not do when it was weaker. It will take or attempt to take what it wants because it is stronger. What is also shocking is that after this clear warning about Chinese behavior was telegraphed to a senior US person such as Gates way back in 2010, the US essentially did not change strategic course vis a vis China for almost the next decade.
ldev, yes, that's their strategy. Forget about the dynasties, no Chinese leader after 1912 abjured the notion of the 'Middle Kingdom'. They were probably distracted by the developing situation and so they put the idea on the back burner, but it never disappeared. Whether it was Gen. Yuan Shikai who took power from the last deposed boy Emperor of the Qing Dynasty, or later Sun Yat-sen or Chiang Kai-shek or Mao Zedong, they all used the Middle Kingdom symbolism in their actions and speeches. Deng's 24-character exhortation to the Hans also clearly meant "Let's do it when the time comes and until then lie low". The signs were there in the open, but they were missed and history was not understood.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by V_Raman »

I get the feeling that one of the reasons to prop up China is to contain India when west understood that Pak wont cut it.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by pushkar.bhat »

V_Raman wrote:I get the feeling that one of the reasons to prop up China is to contain India when west understood that Pak wont cut it.
The west propped up China to ensure that the Sino Russian bear hug does not happen. Its happening now. When US engaged china we were not part of any calculus. We were nobody. India was just another South Asian country struggling with its own problems of illiteracy, hunger and disease.

Indian military came off age after we started projecting our strengths starting Ops Cactus and the in SL. The Sum Drong Chu incident also raised a few eyebrows as did ops brass tacks.

India and its ability to project has been taken notice of only in the last 5-6 years. In fact even today Germany considers India to be a nobody on the international stage. We punch below our weight is a known fact but lets not be delusional by saying that China was propped up by West because it understood that Pak won't cut.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Ashokk »

Army’s J&K drill to get behind enemy lines
Image
NEW DELHI: The Army on Tuesday conducted a helicopter-borne exercise in the higher reaches of the Kashmir Valley to practice inserting a task force “behind enemy lines in an intense air defence and electronic warfare-operating environment”.
The exercise saw the task force, which included infantry soldiers, special forces and marine commandos, being airdropped in a snow-clad region at an altitude of over 9,000 feet.
“The exercise included transport and armed helicopters of the Army and IAF, including the latest Apache attack-choppers. Different aspects of electronic warfare were also validated in the exercise,” an officer said.
“The exercise showcased the capability of the Srinagar based 15 ‘Chinar’ Corps and other Army units to carry out successful operations in high altitude areas,” he added.
Last month, in a signal to China to desist from any misadventure, the Army and IAF had also conducted a major “airborne insertion and combat” exercise along the frontier in eastern Ladakh.
The three-day exercise had witnessed hundreds of pre-acclimatised troops and heavy weapon systems being air-dropped at an altitude of over 14,000-feet amidst minus 20o Celsius temperatures. India and China are slated to conduct the 14th round of corps commander-level talks this month.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Larry Walker »

Seems like ground work and practice started for taking back PoK !!
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Atulya P »

rohitvats wrote:Gogra & Hot Springs - Chang Chenmo Sector Explained (Part-1)

- Please do have a look, and share your feedback and comment.
A great overview of the sector Rohit. As is apparent from your video, the entire chang chenmo sector depends on just one line of communication through Marismik La. IA deployment in Phobrang and Lukung is hence the vital stronghold on which the supply to entire sector is dependent. Whereas the Chinese have access through Kongka La, Kiu La, Ane La (Nodal point being Chang gelong gehe).

I had mapped their roads and posts in entire Aksai Chin for my personal understanding a year ago. Would be happy to share the GE project if it helps you in any way.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Leonard »

Please Watch the First 3 Min of this Video -- It talks of Galwan Casualties among CCP one-child emperors ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAoplmqFK94

1 Entire Battalion of Sugar lander's CCP drones scalped -- Not sure how many "people" that actually involves since batty strength may differ between nations ..
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Rudradev »

rohitvats wrote:(1) In this second, and concluding part on Chang Chenmo Sector, I will be discussing the strategic importance of this sector from both the Indian and the Chinese perspective.

(2) We will see how the Chang Chenmo Sector can be used a firm base by India to launch offensive in the upper reaches of Galwan River Valley, and target Chinese positions from rear in Fingers Area and Khurnak Fort.

(3) I will also present possible Chinese actions in this sector.

(4) It will also become clear why the Chinese chose Hot Springs as one of the points of intrusion, and why they are reluctant to completely disengage in this sector.

[youtube]
Superbly informative analysis as always, Rohitvats ji. Please do keep them coming. An interesting angle to explore here would be the operational ramifications of the Chinese and Indian offensive options you have outlined. Where will the air cover and air defence come from in each case? Where are the missile batteries that will surely launch barrages in advance of the Chinese incursions, can they be monitored and taken out? And, what could India do to avoid surprises as far as possible?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Rakesh »

Must thread twitter thread by Dharmic Aeroplate....

https://twitter.com/daeroplate_v2/statu ... 81344?s=20 ---> My thesis is - far from being pro india, western capitals will benefit most from a localised indian defeat like 62 that ends fast with a withdrawal back to starting lines 1/n
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Pratyush »

Finally the SC has permitted the chardham road expansion project due to defence reasons.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Aditya_V »

Rakesh wrote:Must thread twitter thread by Dharmic Aeroplate....

https://twitter.com/daeroplate_v2/statu ... 81344?s=20 ---> My thesis is - far from being pro india, western capitals will benefit most from a localised indian defeat like 62 that ends fast with a withdrawal back to starting lines 1/n
1000% agree, we must act pragmatically, the best thing for us is that PRC attacks at another front, we must make sure that PRC realizes that they will loose against us and go hard at them. It is a very fine line thanks to the stupidity of Xi and his regime. We are not invading Tibet or even taken Aksai Chin from them tomorrow or in the very near future, we don't threaten the Han heartland, but they are risking their H&D with us.

At some point the PRC is behaving they are going to have show their public their military is greater than US, so they have to fight a war. Smart thing for them would be like the US not to fight with their neighbours but get involved in a conflict far away from home. But they seem to wanting to do it with us, if we are weak enough or with Taiwan, Philipines is an easy target for them.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by AshishA »

Rakesh wrote:Must thread twitter thread by Dharmic Aeroplate....

https://twitter.com/daeroplate_v2/statu ... 81344?s=20 ---> My thesis is - far from being pro india, western capitals will benefit most from a localised indian defeat like 62 that ends fast with a withdrawal back to starting lines 1/n
The best thing we can do to prevent such misadventures which might be due to the collusion between the West and China is by threatening reckless escalation targeting Han mainland regardless of where the conflict is taking place and also dropping mentions of nuke threats. It's the same technique that Pakis pulled off numerous times against us and against the west.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Vips »

Indigenous Double-Lane Modular Bridge, Umling La Pass & more! 27 infra projects built by BRO inaugurated.

Today, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh virtually dedicated to the nation 24 bridges as well as three roads, built by Border Roads Organisation (BRO) across four States and two UTs. Of the 24 bridges, nine of them are located in Jammu & Kashmir; five bridges each in Ladakh and the state of Himachal Pradesh; three bridges in Uttarakhand and one each in the states of Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh. Of the three roads, two roads are in Ladakh and one road is in the state of West Bengal. The main highlight of the event was the inauguration of the country’s first indigenous Class 70 140-feet Double-Lane Modular Bridge, which has been constructed at 11,000 feet height at Flag Hill Dokala, Sikkim and Chisumle-Demchok road at Umling La Pass in Ladakh at over 19,000 feet which also holds the Guinness World Record of the highest motorable road in the world.

The Union Minister said the road at Umling-La pass will boost tourism, enable faster movement of Armed Forces as well as ensure socio-economic development of the region. He further stated that in border areas, roads cater to the strategic requirements as well as ensure equal participation of remote areas in the nation’s development of the nation, commending Border Roads Organisation for its perseverance in achieving the feat despite the challenges of high altitude and sub-zero temperatures.

Singh described the indigenous Double-Lane Modular Bridge as an example of the Modi government’s ‘Aatmanirbharta’ and also appreciated that the project has been constructed at a much lower cost and can be dismantled if required. The e-inauguration held today has taken the tally of India’s infrastructure projects executed by the Border Roads Organisation to a record 102 in a single working season, that too in the 75th year of the nation’s Independence. The organization has completed the construction of projects in a record timeframe, by using state-of-the-art technology in most of the projects.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by rohitvats »

1) The Chinese have built a road connecting the northern and southern bank of the Pangong Tso Lake.
2) This bridge has been built in the vicinity of Khurnak Fort.
3) In this episode of The Perspective, I will be explaining and evaluating this development.
4) The video explains the location, and status of development (as on 3rd January 2022), and its impact on the sector.
5) It also covers how this road benefits the Chinese positions in not only Pangong Tso Sector but opposite Indian positions in Gogra & Hot Springs area in the Chang Chenmo Valley.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Vips »

Prime Minister to lay the foundation stone of a new broad gauge railway line between Mukerian and Talwara.
Prime Minister to lay the foundation stone of a new broad gauge railway line between Mukerian and Talwara, of around 27 Km in length, to be built at a cost of over Rs 410 crore. The railway line will be an extension of Nangal Dam-Daulatpur Chowk railway section.

It will provide an all-weather means of transportation in the area. This project also holds strategic importance as it will serve as an alternative route to Jammu and Kashmir, joining the existing Jalandhar-Jammu railway line at Mukerian in Punjab.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Cyrano »

Nice precise info and analysis Rohitvats ji.

I'd want to see our MEA getting worked up about this and making lots of noice, that Chinese are occupying this area since 1959 doesnt change the fact that all of Aksai Chin is Indian territory. And Tibet was illegally annexed by China.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Aditya_V »

Problem is the nation and media is so screwed up- that before UP elections it will portrayed as if Chinese's have come in to India. Soo many BRF actually believed Ajai SHukla said clashes had occurred when nothing had happened. Many in the Indian media work for the Chinese
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SBajwa »

Indian troops equipped with Sig Sauer 716 against China

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by vimal »

^^ Really as per zee news, Chinese are scared of the rifle. Where do these people come from?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Rakesh »

vimal wrote:^^ Really as per zee news, Chinese are scared of the rifle. Where do these people come from?
For an enemy that is larger in terms of personnel and material, I am amazed they are scared of a rifle. That is assuming what Zee News is saying is true. I guess they want zero losses in a conflict against India. How is that even possible?

China's aggression is via melodrama & theatre with copious amounts of propaganda. Check this out. To paraphrase someone in the youtube video comments, "There are better ways to simulate pressure and coordination than play hot potato with a live grenade."

There are so many things that can go wrong in this scenario, with Chinese quality control being at the top! :mrgreen:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by k prasad »

Rakesh wrote:There are so many things that can go wrong in this scenario, with Chinese quality control being at the top! :mrgreen:
Who knows, Rakesh-saar.... maybe the quality control is PRECISELY why they can do this. The soldiers know that most of their grenades are duds anyway.

Also, note where they drop the grenade and where the blast originates from. There's a 3-4 ft difference in blast origin.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Rakesh »

In the first set of soldiers (till 0:10 in the video), they drop it in the dugout and that is where the explosion occurs.

In the second set of soldiers (from 0:11 in the video), one can indeed see the 3 - 4 ft difference. Good catch Saar. They drop it into a smaller hole, but the blast occurs in the larger dugout.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by k prasad »

Rakesh wrote:In the first set of soldiers (till 0:10 in the video), they drop it in the dugout and that is where the explosion occurs.

In the second set of soldiers (from 0:11 in the video), one can indeed see the 3 - 4 ft difference. Good catch Saar. They drop it into a smaller hole, but the blast occurs in the larger dugout.
My bet is they have a remotely detonated device in the pit and someone far away presses the button once all the soldiers are on the ground.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SBajwa »

It is a fake video., Chinese soldier drops the 2nd grenade almost at his own feet but blast occurs 6' away.
Can we come up with a name for Chinese Goebbels for this propaganda?

Compare that to Indian media (totally free of military and government controls ) who think that a better rifle might scare Chinese.
We have Indian media vs. Chinese Goebbels .
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by k prasad »

SBajwa wrote:Can we come up with a name for Chinese Goebbels for this propaganda?
Breitfart? FoXi News? QiAnon?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Cyrano »

XiAnon ? :rotfl:
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