India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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SriKumar
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SriKumar »

ramana wrote:https://twitter.com/_dinakar_/status/14 ... wqNFA&s=19

Note it was from a Chinese drill being taken as gospel
looks pretty fake . The long haired guy…I’ve seen people like that in Afghan ragtag militia on TV.
Note the hair color and style.

Looks like their budget for propaganda is not that big. There’s a guy in the pictures with headgear and you’ll come across nothing like that for Indian military uniform and protocol for headgear. And yes, strict protocols for uniform are laid out. And no clue why some guys have white hankies/caps on their heads. Plain weird. These are low budget, low quality propaganda pictures.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ks_sachin »

SriKumar wrote:
ramana wrote:https://twitter.com/_dinakar_/status/14 ... wqNFA&s=19

Note it was from a Chinese drill being taken as gospel
looks pretty fake . The long haired guy…I’ve seen people like that in Afghan ragtag militia on TV.
Note the hair color and style.

Looks like their budget for propaganda is not that big. There’s a guy in the pictures with headgear and you’ll come across nothing like that for Indian military uniform and protocol for headgear. And yes, strict protocols for uniform are laid out. And no clue why some guys have white hankies/caps on their heads. Plain weird. These are low budget, low quality propaganda pictures.

Rifle in first twitter pict?
AshishA
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by AshishA »

The most glaring evidence is the salwar kameez. I haven't ever seen Indian soldiers use Salwar Kameez. This is very low quality propaganda. I had previously thought Chinese might excel at propaganda due to their experience in it. But it looks they suck at it too just like their PLA sucks at warfare.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Pratyush »

I saw the photograph.

Have a lot of questions regarding the authenticity of the images coming from PLA.

1) I was under the impression that the action took place during the dusk and approaching the night. The image shows action during full light.

PRC staged this photo OP.

2) the uniform of the "Indian Army captives". Is that even Indian uniform?

The irony of PRC handles releasing these pictures on a platform which is banned in PRC. Why should I take it seriously?
ramana
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ramana »

ks_sachin wrote:
SriKumar wrote: looks pretty fake . The long haired guy…I’ve seen people like that in Afghan ragtag militia on TV.
Note the hair color and style.

Looks like their budget for propaganda is not that big. There’s a guy in the pictures with headgear and you’ll come across nothing like that for Indian military uniform and protocol for headgear. And yes, strict protocols for uniform are laid out. And no clue why some guys have white hankies/caps on their heads. Plain weird. These are low budget, low quality propaganda pictures.

Rifle in first twitter pict?
What is your question?
SSridhar
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

There is most certainly going to be some retribution for this. Make no mistake.
AshishA
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by AshishA »

Btw it's important to note that today PLA plenum starts. Xi will push for strengthening his hold on party. And it appears as if the whole of China is engaged in shadow wars. Recently, one of Xi's top lackeys was accused of MeToo case.

And in midst of all this, they are pushing this propaganda. I think this pictures reeks of insecurity about their own capabilities.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Ashokk »

SSridhar wrote:
There is most certainly going to be some retribution for this. Make no mistake.
Attack by Pakistan on Indian boats contravention of all established norms: India
"India strongly condemns the deliberate attack and firing on Indian fishermen on board two Indian fishing boats by a PMSA vessel on April 12. In the firing by PMSA, one Indian fisherman was injured," the MEA said.
India takes serious note of death of Indian fisherman in firing by Pakistan maritime agency
"We have taken serious note of this incident. We are going to take up this issue diplomatically with the Pakistan side. The matter is under investigation and further details will be shared in due course," said a source.
la.khan
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by la.khan »

SSridhar wrote:
There is most certainly going to be some retribution for this. Make no mistake.
While that would be most welcome, but first things first: about the ceasefire. What's up with that? :evil: What are the powers-that-be waiting for?

Also, I have lost track of the Poonch encounter. I vaguely recollect some local KMs getting charged for providing logistics to these t*rds, in the last 5-6 days. Is it done & dusted? Were all the p*ki pig t*rds neutralized? Or, did they get away?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Hari Nair »

V_Raman wrote:HNairJi are you implying they this is all planned to force a border settlement with China?
The first priority is to achieve a credible force level in SSN. Which we have now.
That translates into capability - it's difficult to get the capability overnight. Needs hard work and effort.

Your question relates to intent - do remember that intents can change depending on the situation.
Why just settle to "settle" the border?
If there is a future weakening of capability of the Han Chinese - which is a distinct probability due to an internal economic implosion or other issues, well our intent can always be changed accordingly.
Karan M wrote:Hari Nair sirji, superb post. The kind of big picture view but with all the details included, that elevates BRF discussions. Thank you!
Thank you! Its a pleasure cruising our forum and a privelege to contribute- has great learning value for all!
Some members however, tend to go off at a tangent just because of a couple of Chinese tweets and pics!
The fact remains that the Han got a heavy walloping during the hand-to-hand combat at Galwan. Also beside their numerous casualties, because the whole world knows about it, we have bruised them psychologically. The dirty, hairy barbarians of the low level vassal state have actually rubbed the heavenly Han noses into the dirt in Galwan, in a very public manner. Obviously, these fellas want to desperately even the score.
Last edited by Hari Nair on 08 Nov 2021 20:45, edited 1 time in total.
Rakesh
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Rakesh »

Hari Nair wrote:Thank you! Its a pleasure cruising our forum and a privelege to contribute- has great learning value for all!
Some members however, tend to go off at a tangent just because of a couple of Chinese tweets and pics!
The fact remains that the Han got a heavy walloping during the hand-to-hand combat at Galwan. Also beside their numerous casualties, because the whole world knows about it, we have bruised them psychologically. The dirty, hairy barbarians of the low level vassal state have actually rubbed the heavenly Han noses into the dirt in Galwan, in a very public manner. Obviously, these fellas want to desperately even the score.
Fantastic! Beautifully written Sir. Thank You.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by shyamd »

IA calls for urgent requirement of Low Level Lightweight radar.

The army wants a 3D active electronically scanned array radar that has a range of 50km with tactical control of air defence weapons.

For use specifically on LAC. Only domestic companies can respond
vimal
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by vimal »

^^ When do the winter trials start?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Pratyush »

vimal wrote:^^ When do the winter trials start?

:rotfl:
Prem Kumar
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Prem Kumar »

shyamd wrote:IA calls for urgent requirement of Low Level Lightweight radar.

The army wants a 3D active electronically scanned array radar that has a range of 50km with tactical control of air defence weapons.

For use specifically on LAC. Only domestic companies can respond
Doesn't LRDE have something out of the box for this? If the requirement also includes a FCR, we have something from the QRSAM program (the 4 paneled AESA radar)

Can you share the RFP? Is it a surveillance radar or a FCR?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Karan M »

This is not an overnight requirement per se. But a requirement the IA has opened up for Make 2, i.e. domestic manufacturers.

At short notice, only DRDO and BEL can deliver. As they have the Aslesha to base it off of.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by YashG »

Pratyush wrote:I saw the photograph.

Have a lot of questions regarding the authenticity of the images coming from PLA.

1) I was under the impression that the action took place during the dusk and approaching the night. The image shows action during full light.

PRC staged this photo OP.

2) the uniform of the "Indian Army captives". Is that even Indian uniform?

The irony of PRC handles releasing these pictures on a platform which is banned in PRC. Why should I take it seriously?
I do not know why do we have to be ashamed of these pictures. And try to refute them. In war these things happen - soldiers will be caught, they will paraded in humiliating ways. Pictures will be released for psyops value. This is how war is.

Next time we can catch their soldiers and do the same. And we should.

This refutation business is weakness. Strength is get even.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by shyamd »

Prem Kumar wrote:
shyamd wrote:IA calls for urgent requirement of Low Level Lightweight radar.

The army wants a 3D active electronically scanned array radar that has a range of 50km with tactical control of air defence weapons.

For use specifically on LAC. Only domestic companies can respond
Doesn't LRDE have something out of the box for this? If the requirement also includes a FCR, we have something from the QRSAM program (the 4 paneled AESA radar)

Can you share the RFP? Is it a surveillance radar or a FCR?
LINK
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

Village under China’s ‘adverse occupation’ since 1959, can’t do much: Official - ToI
The Indian security establishment on Tuesday sought to downplay the festering controversy over China’s construction of a new village on the disputed border in the Upper Subansiri district of Arunachal Pradesh by stressing the area in question had been under Beijing’s occupation since 1959.

The fact, however, remains that the large 100-home village on the banks of River Tsari Chu is on territory claimed by India, and its construction last year violates bilateral agreements between the two countries. “The village is on territory which the Indian Army describes as ‘adverse occupation’ by China. We can do little about it,” said an official.

China, in fact, has been building as many as 628 ‘xiaokang’ model border defence villages along the 3,488-km Line of Actual Control (LAC), stretching from eastern Ladakh to Arunachal Pradesh, over the last few years. “While most of these villages are on the Chinese side of the LAC, some are on disputed territory like the one in question in Arunachal Pradesh,” said the official.

This particular village came into focus once again last week after the latest Pentagon report on China’s military power made a reference to Beijing building the “large 100-home civilian village inside disputed territory between the Tibet Autonomous Region and Arunachal Pradesh” last year, as was reported by TOI.

Reacting to this on Tuesday, official sources in the Indian security establishment said, “The village along the disputed border in the Upper Subansiri district is on territory controlled by China. They have, for years, maintained an army post in the region and the various constructions undertaken by the Chinese have not happened in a short time.”

“The village has been built by China in an area that was occupied by the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) after overrunning an Assam Rifles post in 1959, in the operation known as Longju incident along the frontier in Arunachal Pradesh,” the sources added.

But there is also major concern that China is staking claim to disputed areas by continuing to settle people, who are provided with all amenities and hefty subsidies, in border areas. Moreover, these “dual-use” villages can act as “extended troop cantonments” in times of hostilities.

It is also seen as violating Article VII of the 2005 bilateral agreement, which laid down the “guiding principles for the settlement” of the India-China boundary question”. It clearly specifies: “In reaching a boundary settlement, the two sides shall safeguard due interests of their settled populations in the border areas.” Referring to this, an official said, “China can use this to claim its settled populations in such villages should not be disturbed when the boundary is finalized. China, in effect, will lay claim to such areas as undisputed.”

“It is, of course, another matter that the boundary settlement between India and China is nowhere on the horizon. China, in fact, has so far even refused to ‘clarify’ the LAC, which will help prevent or reduce face-offs. The Ladakh standoff has only hardened stands in the two countries,” he added.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Cyrano »

On the photos claiming to show PLA handling Indian soldiers, IA should either refute them if they are fake or state that "mistreatment of our soldiers in such situations tells us how the Chinese expect to be treated when they get taken by IA. We have taken good note of it". Media psyops cannot be let go unanswered in this day and age. It has its own value.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Prem Kumar »

shyamd wrote:Low level lightweight radar specs
LINK
Thanks shyamd - very interesting specs!

1) GaN AESA
2) 100 target tracking
3) Passive detection (not sure if it means doppler or RWR or EO)
4) VLO tracking
5) MFR: scan, track & FCR
6) Look-up, look-down (CM/UAV detection from hills), high supersonic target detection, light-weight, quick assembly, high altitude etc etc

The fact that the IA is sure that such a complex system can be developed indigenously & quickly is a huge vote of confidence!!

A lot of the tech exists: Aslesha for LLTR, AESA from Akash-NG/QRSAM, MFR etc. I don't believe we have GaN radars yet (that was scheduled for Uttam-2). That's the new tech that needs to be developed.

For reference, here is a comprehensive article by TSS about LRDE's radar projects. Its from 2012 but contains a wealth of data. The rigor of the test beds is quite amazing. No wonder, our radars are on par or better than the rest of the world

https://frontline.thehindu.com/other/ar ... 164445.ece
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Pratyush »

Cyrano wrote:On the photos claiming to show PLA handling Indian soldiers, IA should either refute them if they are fake or state that "mistreatment of our soldiers in such situations tells us how the Chinese expect to be treated when they get taken by IA. We have taken good note of it". Media psyops cannot be let go unanswered in this day and age. It has its own value.
What must India respond to this issue.

India must not respond to such things. A response is playing to the enemies terms. The best way it to pay back the enemy at a time and place of our choice.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by k prasad »

Prem Kumar wrote:
shyamd wrote:Low level lightweight radar specs
LINK
Thanks shyamd - very interesting specs!

1) GaN AESA
2) 100 target tracking
3) Passive detection (not sure if it means doppler or RWR or EO)
4) VLO tracking
5) MFR: scan, track & FCR
6) Look-up, look-down (CM/UAV detection from hills), high supersonic target detection, light-weight, quick assembly, high altitude etc etc

The fact that the IA is sure that such a complex system can be developed indigenously & quickly is a huge vote of confidence!!

A lot of the tech exists: Aslesha for LLTR, AESA from Akash-NG/QRSAM, MFR etc. I don't believe we have GaN radars yet (that was scheduled for Uttam-2). That's the new tech that needs to be developed.

For reference, here is a comprehensive article by TSS about LRDE's radar projects. Its from 2012 but contains a wealth of data. The rigor of the test beds is quite amazing. No wonder, our radars are on par or better than the rest of the world

https://frontline.thehindu.com/other/ar ... 164445.ece
The BFSR is quite an excellent system. I had the opportunity to compare it with a phoren counterpart at IRSI-07, and BFSR was at a different level. In fact, that was what got me really hooked on radars in the first place to the point of doing a PhD in it. :-)

The key for the ladakh border will be the ability to quickly place a laarge number of surveillnce radars along the heights, which is where Bharani and Aslesha will come into play. If they can develop a good system of network operations, the situational awareness that these radars can give us all along the LAC will be quite significant.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Aditya_V »

YashG wrote:
Pratyush wrote:I saw the photograph.

Have a lot of questions regarding the authenticity of the images coming from PLA.

1) I was under the impression that the action took place during the dusk and approaching the night. The image shows action during full light.

PRC staged this photo OP.

2) the uniform of the "Indian Army captives". Is that even Indian uniform?

The irony of PRC handles releasing these pictures on a platform which is banned in PRC. Why should I take it seriously?
I do not know why do we have to be ashamed of these pictures. And try to refute them. In war these things happen - soldiers will be caught, they will paraded in humiliating ways. Pictures will be released for psyops value. This is how war is.

Next time we can catch their soldiers and do the same. And we should.

This refutation business is weakness. Strength is get even.
Did you even look at those pics, they are fake, what is thier to be ashamed of, only PRC should be ashamed of such fakery, some PRC public who have racist view can be fooled by those pics.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by nam »

We do have a GaN based radar in use. The QRSAM 4 panel radars on those truck are all GaN based. The S band radar created for A330 AWACS India was GaN based.

The only thing missing from the lot is air borne X band FCR. X band land is already available.

Saab did a tie up with BEL for the C band GaN ship radar because they knew we already have the tech.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by YashG »

Aditya_V wrote:
YashG wrote:
I do not know why do we have to be ashamed of these pictures. And try to refute them. In war these things happen - soldiers will be caught, they will paraded in humiliating ways. Pictures will be released for psyops value. This is how war is.

Next time we can catch their soldiers and do the same. And we should.

This refutation business is weakness. Strength is get even.
Did you even look at those pics, they are fake, what is thier to be ashamed of, only PRC should be ashamed of such fakery, some PRC public who have racist view can be fooled by those pics.
It doesnt matter if they are fake or not. Those pictures are doing among the aam junta - what they are supposed to do. It will not matter for some of us to keep shouting that they are fake. Maybe it balms our hearts but thats pretty much it. What will make a difference is we should release some pics too - real or fake. And get even. If we do fake - we should a do a class act.

When we bombed balakot, paki junta shouted it is fake. But it didnt matter. You cant control the narrative through an intellectual debate or sloganeering. U have to get even. or even more than even. There is no other way to control the narrative. In the end narrative is everything. Its surreal.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ramana »

Cyrano wrote:On the photos claiming to show PLA handling Indian soldiers, IA should either refute them if they are fake or state that "mistreatment of our soldiers in such situations tells us how the Chinese expect to be treated when they get taken by IA. We have taken good note of it". Media psyops cannot be let go unanswered in this day and age. It has its own value.
I thought folks here don't like Dosa diplomacy or Kadi Ninda talk.
The pictures are fake and you want GOI to outrage over them!
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Ashokk »

Should we allow environment to trump defence necessities, asks Supreme Court
NEW DELHI: The Supreme Court on Tuesday said it cannot turn a blind eye to the troop built up and shoring up of infrastructure by China at India's border and rule that environment will always trump national security to brush aside the Centre's plea for widening of strategic feeder roads, popularly known as Chardham project, linking defence facilities along Indo-China border.
Countering vehement opposition to Centre's plea for widening of feeder roads leading to Indo-China border locations by NGO 'Citizens for Green Doon' on the ground that it would cause an environmental disaster, a bench of Justices D Y Chandrachud, Surya Kant and Vikram Nath said, "There is no doubt that sustainable development has to be balanced with national security requirements. Can the highest constitutional court override the concerns of armed forces, particularly given the contemporary developments at the Indo-China border?"
"In the 1962 war, our troops were without supplies and had to undertake arduous treks to reach the border outposts. We know what happened. Given the situation at the border and the new legislation passed by the Chinese government to override claims of neighbouring countries on disputes over border lands, there is an urgent need to build infrastructure to carry heavy artillery, tanks, missile launchers and swift movement of troops," the AG said.
"The army does not want to be caught napping as it was in 1962," Venugopal said, adding the border roads - from Badrinath to Mana pass, From Gangotri to Muningla pass, and Pithoragarh to Lipulekh pass - have been widened for movement of army trucks. "But, the widening of border roads are meaningless if the feeder roads are not widened," he said.
Agreeing with the AG during the inconclusive hearing of the case, Justice Chandrachud-led bench said, "There has not been any radical change in the border infrastructure since 1962. This aspect cannot be ignored by the court. Environment remains a concern and it can be protected while not disregarding the security concerns."
Referring to the arguments of NGO's counsel Colin Gonsalves that the heavy traffic that these widened roads will carry would lead to excessive carbon shoot deposit on glaciers accelerating their melting and terming the case as one of the most important climate change cases, the bench said, "Yes, there is glacial melting. But, it is not just because of construction of roads. It is more a systemic issue and the large carbon footprints."
"The defence of India requires upgradation of the roads. Look at the preparedness on the other side (Chinese side). Can the environment trump the defence requirements or should it be balanced," the bench asked. "IF the government had said it was widening the roads for tourism purposes, then they could have been non-suited. When the roads are widened for defence purposes, it is but natural that pilgrims would also use it," Justice Chandrachud said and gave numerous examples from the Leh-Ladakh region to counter the NGO's arguments.
Gonsalves said that large-scale hill cutting and road laying activities on the young Himalayan mountain range would be a sure recipe for disaster and climate change. He said pilgrims earlier used to trek and there was no need for widening the roads to invite wrath of nature, which has been evident through a series of catastrophic events since the NDA government's pet project has been given effect to. The SC had rightly limited the widening of the roads to 5.5 metre against the Centre's demand for 10 metre double lane paved shoulder roads, he said.
Gonsalves said that during a candid conversation with members of the NGO, CDC Bipin Rawat had said that there was no need to widen the roads as the existing ones were good to meet the requirements of armed forces. "Rawat, a true Pahadi (hillman) had said that armed forces have enough capable helicopters to airlift heavy artillery, armaments and troops," he said. Later he clarified that Rawat had not met members of the NGO but a journalist when he had made those comments.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by k prasad »

^^ Interesting... that NGO is run by an ex-Army doctor.

https://webnewsobserver.com/2021/04/30/ ... -saplings/

Normally, one of my first assumptions in these cases is to wonder which foreign entity might be pulling the strings, but in this case, it might just be a well-intentioned but shortsighted fight.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by yensoy »

More elevated roads over select forested areas may be the appropriate solution here. By locating roads on piers, the amount of deforestation suffered is minimized, in large part due to the reduced need for retaining slopes which need to be stripped of trees beside the carriageway itself. Yes it is expensive, but there are other advantages such as relative immunity from landslides and no impact to wildlife.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by nandakumar »

yensoy wrote:More elevated roads over select forested areas may be the appropriate solution here. By locating roads on piers, the amount of deforestation suffered is minimized, in large part due to the reduced need for retaining slopes which need to be stripped of trees beside the carriageway itself. Yes it is expensive, but there are other advantages such as relative immunity from landslides and no impact to wildlife.
Any idea what is the cost differential? The lawyer arguing for the defence was only focusing on the width given for shoulders on either side of the road.
A related observation. You are arguing for road construction on the piers. if I understood you correctly, by 'piers' you are perhaps referring to rock outcrops. But they may not exist all along the way. Cutting hill face to lay a road seems unavoidable.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Cyrano »

I feel there is too much emphasis on the road construction itself, which will of course disturb the habitat, but the real culprit is that it separates the land into two parts which impede animal movement, may alter water runoff patterns therefore influence the habitat, and most importantly, lead to increased vehicular traffic and associated noise, dust, and exhaust pollution.

But if you keep the land pristine and lose it to the enemy because you cant access it yourself, the whole point is moot.

Elevated road like this:
Image
will need significant realignment of the required gradients to get on an off the elevated portions, which will again have some impact and could make the whole elevated idea not worth it. Not to mention increase cost and duration of construction manyfold.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by nandakumar »

Cyrano
The image you have posted seems like cantilever projection from the rock face on which the road stands. Is that what you are saying that the NGO is arguing for?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Cyrano »

The NGO seems to be arguing for no new road onlee... they are not reported to be pushing for any specific engineering solution. To some extent I understand them and support them, but if satisfying them comes at the cost of defending our border territory then there is no contest. Thats what the SC is saying as well.

But in the end, when a better road is built it will be used by both military and civil vehicles, a much higher number as well, so that angst of conservationists is also justified. Some expensive engg solutions can reduce impact, but who will pay and wait for it?
Deans
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Deans »

nandakumar wrote:Cyrano
The image you have posted seems like cantilever projection from the rock face on which the road stands. Is that what you are saying that the NGO is arguing for?
Colin Gonsalves argues for anything that is against our national security. The actual need or condition of the road is irrelevant. If the roads were not developed, he would have found some other pretext.
YashG
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by YashG »

1. How long would it take to restore a road if bombed When built as elevated vs built on the rock face.
2. If you build a road hopping between hills - how much time will it save in terms of supplying through those roads - since hopping between hills will considerably reduce distance.
3. While bombing the roads, even imprecise bombing can lead to land-slides and choke the road - the whole hillside is target then.
4. Elevated roads are super-super costly

And why even roads?
5. Roads built to supply one sector can supply only that sector. Airlift capability is fungible, it can rapidly build forward supplies in any sector.
6. Sustained operations like the one we are facing now will need road supplies, a likely war will last a week before cease-fire is called on - will need massive airlift capability for quick reactions.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Vips »

If Army can't move weapons to China border, how will it fight war: Centre to SC.
The Centre on Thursday told the Supreme Court that if the Army cannot move its missile launchers, heavy machinery up to the northern Indo-China border, then how will it defend it and fight a war if it breaks out.

Trying to allay the concerns of landslides in Himalayan regions due to the construction of the wider Chardham highway project, the government said all necessary steps have been taken to mitigate the disaster and added that landslides have happened in various parts of the country and not specifically due to road construction.

The strategic 900-km-long Chardham project worth Rs 12,000 crore aims to provide all-weather connectivity to four holy towns -- Yamunotri, Gangotri, Kedarnath, and Badrinath -- in Uttarakhand.

A bench of Justices DY Chandrachud, Surya Kant, and Vikram Nath which reserved its verdict on a plea of the ministry of defence to modify its earlier order and plea of an NGO 'Citizens for Green Doon' against the widening of the road asked them to file written submissions on the steps taken and to be taken to mitigate landslides in the region.

Attorney general KK Venugopal, appearing for Centre, said, "These are inhospitable terrains where Army needs to move heavy vehicles, machineries, weapons, missiles, tanks, troops and food supplies. Our Brahmos missile is 42 feet long and needs large vehicles to carry its launchers. If the Army cannot move its missile launchers and machineries up to the northern China border, then how will it fight a war, if it breaks out."

He said, "God forbid if the war breaks out then how will the Army deal with it if it does not have its weapons. We have to be careful and on guard. We are to remain prepared. Our defence minister attended Indian Road Congress and had said that the Army needs disaster-resilient roads."

Venugopal said that appropriate studies have been undertaken including geological surveys, morphology, and human activities in the vulnerable areas and steps like slope stabilisation, afforestation, scientific muck disposal have been undertaken.

"Landslides can happen anywhere in the country even where there is no road activity but mitigation steps which are necessary are undertaken. Our roads need to be disaster resilient. There are specialised protection measures undertaken in the vulnerable areas, where frequent landslides occur and heavy snowfall blocks the road," he said.

The top law officer said that the IRC has recommended an additional 1.5-meter width in snow-bound areas so that vehicles can move in those areas.

"The build-up on the other side of the border can only be accessed through passes in these mountains. The high powered committee supervising the Chardham project in its report did not address these concerns of the Army. The HPC report is far cry from the needs of the Army," he said.

He said today there is a situation where the country needs to be protected and all the available resources and forces need to be combined to protect the country.

"We need to ensure that all the facilities which are needed by the Army are provided. We cannot raise our hands and say that our roads are of 5.5-meter width and therefore our Brahmos launchers cannot go up the hill. There are huge Tatra trucks, tanks, and other smerch multiple rocket launchers which need to go up the hill," he said.

Venugopal said that the Army has to undertake a stupendous task to reach upto the China border through the mountain passes come whatever may like landslides or snowfall.

"Can the Army say that it will not take these mountain roads as landslides happen and hence it cannot protect the borders? There are no alternatives. We have to live with landslides. We have to deal with it through mitigating steps. Landslides have happened in Karnataka, North Eastern States, West Bengal, and other parts of the country. It has not spared anybody. It has to be accepted that Jammu and Kashmir, Himachal Pradesh, and Uttarakhand witness more landslides," he said.

Venugopal said that the HPC report focuses on totally different aspects and did not consider the situations of the Army which it has to undertake.

Senior advocate Collin Gonsalves, appearing for the NGO, said that the road widening project has to be stopped. It will endanger the lives of soldiers (Snake oil salesman making his pitch) and people as the Himalayas don't need any such thing to happen.

"These activities cannot be allowed by the Himalayas. These are god-given restrictions. If you forcefully try to do it, the mountains will reclaim it. There were some mitigation steps taken but they were all washed out," he said.

On Wednesday, the top court had asked the Centre and an NGO to suggest additional safeguards which it could impose on implementing agencies of the ambitious Chardham project if it allows the multi-thousand crore project to go on considering the huge ramification of the country's defence needs.

The court was hearing the Centre's plea seeking modification of the September 8, 2020 order, which had asked the ministry of road transport and highways to follow the 2018 circular stipulating carriageway width of 5.5 metre on the ambitious Chardham highway project, which goes up to the China border.

In its application, the MoD had said it seeks modification of the order and directions that the national highways from Rishikesh to Mana, from Rishikesh to Gangotri, and from Tanakpur to Pithoragarh may be developed to two-lane configuration.
Name just one country in the world where the government of the day has to explain in detail why strategic needs have to be given importance?

Why should Courts be so powerful that they can jeopardize a country's security in pursuit of an utopian ideal?

Would the Judges and the Environment mafia shove the environment concerns up their collective backsides if part of the border areas goes into enemy hands because heavy arms could not be transported to these areas for want of wide enough roads?

Truly its time to take a breather when in the name of democracy and rule of the law (Right to protest and filing of "Public interest litigation") a nation's security can be so easily manipulated and put at risk.

To say it is a laughing spectacle would be an understatement.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SinghS »

Vips wrote:Truly its time to take a breather when in the name of democracy and rule of the law (Right to protest and filing of "Public interest litigation") a nation's security can be so easily manipulated and put at risk.

To say it is a laughing spectacle would be an understatement.
OT warning:

What is happening is not ideal, but it is very much required. It is the checks & balances which runs the country. Just imagine if a corrupt & almost anti-national coalition like **U_P_A** comes in power and does something for which we are unable to pull them up in court. These checks & balances; if at one hand threaten to slow and endanger us as a country, on the other they help to keep us safe too.

What we need is an overhaul of the judiciary and fill it with nationalists. But that is a topic of another thread.
RKumar

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by RKumar »

There are quite a few apt says ...

When Rome was Brüning, Nero was playing flute (For the Roman mylunds)

Our own

Vinasha kale viparith buddhi

China is breathing on our neck and for last one year we are discussing security implications in the courts.
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