India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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ramana
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ramana »

Lisa wrote:China claims Indian troops crossed the border and attacked its soldiers

https://www.opindia.com/2022/12/china-c ... -soldiers/ :roll:
Contrast this with their Foreign Ministry statement.
Clearly there is a dichotomy in their ministries.
And that means XJP did this for internal consumption and had a further loss of face.

Add to the Kabul killings. Not a good week for PRC.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Rakesh »

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Cyrano »

Lt Gen (Retd) PR Shankar with JD on the latest Twang on cheeni bum.
With maps of the concerned area etc.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Larry Walker »

Something does not add-up. Lets assume this entire ops went successful for PLA - then what would have they gained ? What would have they shown to their masses ? That we overwhelmed a local post and physically captured it scuffling with IA ? And if they indeed wanted to show that then why not escalate when they were been neaten back ? because they were not prepared ? in that case why even try ?
PLA has already seen that IA does not back down in melee situation be it Dokalam or Galwan - so what different were they expecting this time ?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by k prasad »

Larry Walker wrote:Something does not add-up. Lets assume this entire ops went successful for PLA - then what would have they gained ? What would have they shown to their masses ? That we overwhelmed a local post and physically captured it scuffling with IA ? And if they indeed wanted to show that then why not escalate when they were been neaten back ? because they were not prepared ? in that case why even try ?
PLA has already seen that IA does not back down in melee situation be it Dokalam or Galwan - so what different were they expecting this time ?
I think all of these, along with the aircrafts coming close to the LAC are all probing operations for a larger, coordinated assault next year. A localized show-of-force like this one also has the added benefit (for PLA) of forcing our troops into a state of constant readiness. Not surprising that this is happening just as winter approaches, because this will necessitate overwinter deployment, which further saps resources and causes fatigue for the units there.

It's great that we beat the PLA back and were able to quickly bear down on them with higher numbers, but as long as the chinese control the escalation ladder and can choose the conflict triggers, we'll be playing on the back foot.

We need to put them on the back foot and do our own similar 'probing exercises'. To be fair, that's probably happening already (in the past, these have only come out years later), but it'd be nice to know that the IA is being proactive.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Larry Walker »

One does not attack with massed formations just walking across borders - especially when your opponent is a battle hardened and very well equipped army. This conflict stand-alone does not make any sense - unless there were series of maneuvers and that finally culminated into IA trapping these PLA sissies and thrashing them. When a real PLA attack comes - it will be preceded with lot of artillery and rocket fire.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Ashokk »

Pgurus channel claiming that 12 cheeni soldiers were taken prisoner :shock:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Anujan »

This is likely to escalate. There were clashes and scuffles like this before the Galwan incident which then escalated to Galwan.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Rupesh »

https://twitter.com/BefittingFacts/stat ... Yi_Z3YmuFw

Not sure if this is from the recent incident.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Ankit Desai »

Rupesh wrote:https://twitter.com/BefittingFacts/stat ... Yi_Z3YmuFw

Not sure if this is from the recent incident.
Old Video
Larry Walker wrote:Something does not add-up. Lets assume this entire ops went successful for PLA - then what would have they gained ? What would have they shown to their masses ? That we overwhelmed a local post and physically captured it scuffling with IA ? And if they indeed wanted to show that then why not escalate when they were been neaten back ? because they were not prepared ? in that case why even try ?
PLA has already seen that IA does not back down in melee situation be it Dokalam or Galwan - so what different were they expecting this time ?
I have same feeling, 300 odd PLA, sorties by IAF looks like something big. IIRC 1986/87 that's how it started. I am sure IA is prepared.
Larry Walker wrote:One does not attack with massed formations just walking across borders - especially when your opponent is a battle hardened and very well equipped army. This conflict stand-alone does not make any sense - unless there were series of maneuvers and that finally culminated into IA trapping these PLA sissies and thrashing them. When a real PLA attack comes - it will be preceded with lot of artillery and rocket fire.
artillery and rocket fire sound extreme. But can be if they want to capture heights but did not they learn from Galwan and Chushul ? Pandas are not Pindi.

-Ankit
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by sanjaykumar »

There is no snow on the ground.

That be the sweetest Panjabi I ever did hear; brings a tear to the eye. Sniff.

But seriously, the fact that this was released means the GoI is sitting on much worse (for the Chinese) footage. Always play the game two steps ahead, the Chinese are being taunted to reply.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SBajwa »

sanjaykumar wrote:There is no snow on the ground.

That be the sweetest Panjabi I ever did hear; brings a tear to the eye. Sniff.

But seriously, the fact that this was released means the GoI is sitting on much worse (for the Chinese) footage. Always play the game two steps ahead, the Chinese are being taunted to reply.

Another funny thing is that Indian soldiers were only armed with classic police Lathis while Chinis were well equipped with baseball bats covered with barbed wire, etc. Just look at enthusiasm of Indian Soldiers
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by sanjaykumar »

It is remarkable. The Indians are generally taller, they occupy the higher ground and the lathis give them a longer reach. What were the Chinese thinking? The commanding officer had to order them to stop “bas karo”, once th Chinese were on the other side.

The Indians were in dominance. I wonder what units these troops were from.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Roop »

Prem Kumar wrote:... The Chinese will not be under the same stress because they know that we will never be the aggressor. So, they have the luxury of rest, followed by action at a time & place of their choosing.
Well there you are, you see, this is the problem. India has the reputation of being a goody-two-shoes who always plays by the rules, never does anything illegal or unexpected. Perhaps it's time to change that "rule", cross over onto their side of the LAC (even if it's only 100 or 150 meters) and just sit there holding that ground. Don't announce it publicly, but don't go back either -- dare the Chinese to go to war over this.

BTW, it was great to watch that Y/T video on Rohit Sharma's website, with the Punjabi-speaking NCO yelling "Satto, satto, behenc*od!" (hit them, hit them (swearword)"). :rotfl:
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by NRao »

^^^^^

I think there is a reason for India to "follow the rules":

Late into MMS' term, MMS had authorized a mountain strike corp (MSC), to face the Chinese border. It sort of took off only to die until it was revived by Modi years later. The story went that the MEA struck the MSC down, claiming that Indian diplomacy is enough to handle China and that there was no need to spend monies on a MSC.

This was again repeated in 2020 when India was warned about the PLA heading toward the LAC and the Indian response was that it is OK, and Indian diplomacy will handle all border issues.

Even though today India has 1.5/2 MSCs facing China the mentality that an Indian diplomat can better handle the situation than the IA still exists. After all the MEA gave away (IMO) the Kailash Range for a localized withdrawal by the PLA.

Dare I say that there is a better chance of the Indian military to recover all territories and retain them than anyone in the MEA (with due respect).
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by sanjaykumar »

India’s current economy gives it choices that others eg MMS simply did not have. And the kailash range can be reoccupied at will.

The us China dynamic also gives India options unavailable earlier. Pakistan’s utility is another factor that gives India more freedom of action. MMS May have stayed his hand in 2008 because of US need for Pakistani servility. Once that parameter was out of the equation the mirages came out.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by NRao »

Missing the point.

MEA's thinking is the reason India is a "goody-two-shoes". Nothing to do with the economy, US-China dynamics, Pakistan, etc. MEA behaved the same under MMS and now under Modi, under a not-so-good eco and a much better eco, .........
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by sanjaykumar »

The other striking thing in that video is whilst the Indians can be seen spread along the heights,the Chinese are clumped in a group. A blow from the lathi is sure to strike something and the Chinese frontline can’t even evade the strike beacuse there are men immediately behind and on either side.

Who are the Chinese sending up those mountains? Almost feel sorry for them. Very poorly trained and led.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Neela »

Nothing hurts like a land grab and border redraw for every silly Chinese act.
Dispute and occupy 5 places in different regions . Fallback on 2. Pretend to negotiate on 1. Hold on to 2. Chai-biskoot session after 1 month . It doesnt have to be 10km into the border. It just has to be 500m to 2km close to lend a sense of credibility to the claim.
The least they can do is to redraw by 1km in the exact disputed area.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Prem Kumar »

The "diplomats can avert war & commander level talks can de-escalate" thinking still seems to predominate, though we are vastly more aggressive than we ever were under Congress. This mindset guides war planning, weapons procurement etc. I can understand a holding-pattern while we aggressively re-arm, but the urgency is present in only some areas (border infra) & not in others (arms stockpiling)

Considerable public pressure is important for the GOI to know that pro-active aggression and land-grabbing is acceptable & even desirable to the populace
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Cyrano »

Since the Ukrainian war has started, India has clearly moved on from "log (i.e. international community) kya kahange" to "such to log kahange, logon ka kaam hai kehna".

India had spent a lot of its diplomatic efforts in the past on developing factual awareness, contextual understanding and implicit if not explicit support from the G7 & EU on issues with Pak and China.

This year we have come to the realisation that A. Its a waste of time & effort, B. Its actually not at all needed to explain oneself to others. This should free up a lot of diplomatic and undiplomatic options now to deal with the Chinese & Pakis.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by chetak »

Prem Kumar wrote:The "diplomats can avert war & commander level talks can de-escalate" thinking still seems to predominate, though we are vastly more aggressive than we ever were under Congress. This mindset guides war planning, weapons procurement etc. I can understand a holding-pattern while we aggressively re-arm, but the urgency is present in only some areas (border infra) & not in others (arms stockpiling)

Considerable public pressure is important for the GOI to know that pro-active aggression and land-grabbing is acceptable & even desirable to the populace


Prem Kumar ji,

There is a "time and place" imperative that is weighing on us because of the global situation. India is under attack from various quarters.

galwan was done under cover of the pandemic and this time xi has stocked up on oil, food grains and some other industrial raw materials and goods (a lot of the grain purchased from India under various pretexts)

xi is pushing hard at this time because of increasingly escalating internal dissensions and a rapidly rising discontent among the mango cheeni.

He knows that India has pissed off the west due to her stance on russia and ukr and xi is hoping to take advantage of that rift to redraw borders in ladakh, as well as, tawang with his salami slicing tactics.

just like the paki crore kammandus do, he needs to divert attention in his own country and also unite the unwashed bat eating crowds to support the war efforts and the easiest method to divert and refocus the cheeni public attention is to attack India and claim that India attacked them

The mount road mao (The Hindu paper) and the rest of the commie propaganda machinery in India is also starting to push this cheeni narrative
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by chetak »

Image
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Arima »

Prem Kumar wrote:The "diplomats can avert war & commander level talks can de-escalate" thinking still seems to predominate, though we are vastly more aggressive than we ever were under Congress. This mindset guides war planning, weapons procurement etc. I can understand a holding-pattern while we aggressively re-arm, but the urgency is present in only some areas (border infra) & not in others (arms stockpiling)

Considerable public pressure is important for the GOI to know that pro-active aggression and land-grabbing is acceptable & even desirable to the populace
our diplomats and south block babus need special orientation to know about geo politics and show spine when really needed. we many times punched below weights and received unnecessary blows from lizard and pork.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

Chinese army has gone down to Hooliganism and streetfighting says Gen Naravane - ToI
The Indian Army maintains a "professional stance" in warfare and would rather open fire than resort to "wielding clubs," said former Chief of Army Staff General MM Naravane in a reference to the Chinese army engaging in fisticuffs with Indian soldiers in Galwan valley and most recently in Arunachal's Tawang.

General Naravane asked if the Chinese army (People's Liberation Army) has gone down to the level of "prehistoric times" by using "clubs and barbed wires".

His remarks came days after the Chinese army attempted to change the status quo on the Line of Actual Control in the Tawang sector of Arunachal Pradesh on December 9 through a faceoff with the Indian troops, in which they were pushed back by the Indian Army without suffering any casualties.

"We would still like to maintain that we are a 21st-century Army. To start going back to clubs and barbed wires is going back to prehistoric times. It is a very regressive way of going. We would still like to maintain that in warfare also there are certain rules. It is not that you do whatever you want to do. We would still like to maintain a professional stance. Therefore, rather than resort to wielding clubs, we rather open fire," he said in 'Podcast with Smita Prakash'.

"That is how an army fights by using the weapons at your disposal and not getting into fisticuffs. Are we hooligans or mafia? We are professional. Is that the level PLA has gone down to? Hooliganism and streetfighting? Or they are a professional 21st-century army? On one side they try to show their technological prowess, on the other side they are coming with barbed wire clubs. It is ridiculous," the former Army Chief said.

Talking about the Galwan valley clash in 2020 in which 20 Indian soldiers lost their lives and several Chinese soldiers were also killed, General Naravane said that the Indian Army countered them in the same way that was used against it.

"Although we did not fire, we also resorted in a similar vein. It was always a question of who will open fire first. Since we felt that we had the measure of the PLA troops over there, we also countered them in the same way that they were taking action against us which was basically by the use of non-lethal, that is not actually firing, although casualties did occur. They were carrying sticks and we were also carrying sticks," he said.

Asked what went through his mind when Colonel Santosh Babu and his men were killed in the Galwan clash in 2020, General Naravane said that the soldiers who made the supreme sacrifice died in the line of duty
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Deans »

Larry Walker wrote:Something does not add-up. Lets assume this entire ops went successful for PLA - then what would have they gained ? What would have they shown to their masses ? That we overwhelmed a local post and physically captured it scuffling with IA ? And if they indeed wanted to show that then why not escalate when they were been neaten back ? because they were not prepared ? in that case why even try ?
PLA has already seen that IA does not back down in melee situation be it Dokalam or Galwan - so what different were they expecting this time ?
Its possible that the PLA wanted to see how fast we could respond to an intrusion and reinforce a post in winter - when the already difficult terrain is snow covered. Galwan & The Ladakh intrusions (and Doklam before that) happened in summer. We would not have been able to reinforce as fast in winter. If we had not reinforced, the platoon (no more than 40 men) holding our post would have been overwhelmed by 300 Chinese.

The local PLA commander may be from a different formation from those at Ladakh with a different political master. He may have wanted to show that his men can capture a IA post occupying the heights, thus doing better than his Aksai Chin counterpart.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SidSoma »

Larry Walker wrote:Something does not add-up. Lets assume this entire ops went successful for PLA - then what would have they gained ? What would have they shown to their masses ? That we overwhelmed a local post and physically captured it scuffling with IA ? And if they indeed wanted to show that then why not escalate when they were been neaten back ? because they were not prepared ? in that case why even try ?
PLA has already seen that IA does not back down in melee situation be it Dokalam or Galwan - so what different were they expecting this time ?
Gen Naravane says this is an annual event.

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1602706480657928192
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SBajwa »

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Larry Walker »

[quote="Deans"]
Its possible that the PLA wanted to see how fast we could respond to an intrusion and reinforce a post in winter - when the already difficult terrain is snow covered. Galwan & The Ladakh intrusions (and Doklam before that) happened in summer. We would not have been able to reinforce as fast in winter. If we had not reinforced, the platoon (no more than 40 men) holding our post would have been overwhelmed by 300 Chinese.

So we were lucky this time ?!!
If we did not have the forewarning - PLA would have been able to capture that post and take IA soldiers as PoW ?
Was that the original intent ?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by eklavya »

Not just their army. Even their “diplomats” (CPC cadre most likely) behave like street thugs and hooligans:

China diplomats leave UK over Manchester protester attack
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by williams »

Deans wrote:
Larry Walker wrote:Something does not add-up. Lets assume this entire ops went successful for PLA - then what would have they gained ? What would have they shown to their masses ? That we overwhelmed a local post and physically captured it scuffling with IA ? And if they indeed wanted to show that then why not escalate when they were been neaten back ? because they were not prepared ? in that case why even try ?
PLA has already seen that IA does not back down in melee situation be it Dokalam or Galwan - so what different were they expecting this time ?
Its possible that the PLA wanted to see how fast we could respond to an intrusion and reinforce a post in winter - when the already difficult terrain is snow covered. Galwan & The Ladakh intrusions (and Doklam before that) happened in summer. We would not have been able to reinforce as fast in winter. If we had not reinforced, the platoon (no more than 40 men) holding our post would have been overwhelmed by 300 Chinese.

The local PLA commander may be from a different formation from those at Ladakh with a different political master. He may have wanted to show that his men can capture a IA post occupying the heights, thus doing better than his Aksai Chin counterpart.
That is true, in a politically dictatorial army, things may happen just to show off and it may not necessarily mean there is a sane military objective. However, these show-off events (if they are show-offs) generate a lot of media and political circus in India. How do we avoid it is the question? The current strategy seems like to be in high hot deployment and surveillance mode and responding quickly to such incursions. Whatever could be the motive, is there a better strategy than what is already in place should be the question. We already have shooting matches with the Pakis on the western side. Should we pursue something like that here?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by V_Raman »

This is putting a disproportionate cost on India. Not militarily but politically. So much time wasted by the govt to make statements etc. China seems to have achieved its purpose here - keep the govt on its toes and get distracted.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by k prasad »

williams wrote: That is true, in a politically dictatorial army, things may happen just to show off and it may not necessarily mean there is a sane military objective. However, these show-off events (if they are show-offs) generate a lot of media and political circus in India. How do we avoid it is the question? The current strategy seems like to be in high hot deployment and surveillance mode and responding quickly to such incursions. Whatever could be the motive, is there a better strategy than what is already in place should be the question. We already have shooting matches with the Pakis on the western side. Should we pursue something like that here?
I also wonder if the PLA unit(s) in the area was either new or had a new CO? In such a politically fraught setup as the PLA, there will obviously be pressure on any new CO to show more strength than their predecessor, and get a "win" soon after taking over the unit. Arguably, given the size of the incursion, I doubt a regimental CO took this action on his own, so this is possibly a decision taken by CO(s) at the brigade or even Corps-level, perhaps?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Ankit Desai »

SidSoma wrote:....
Gen Naravane says this is an annual event.

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1602706480657928192
That as well what happened during Galwan, race to capture southern bank of Pangong Tso and more.



-Ankit
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Deans »

Deans wrote:
Larry Walker wrote:Something does not add-up. Lets assume this entire ops went successful for PLA - then what would have they gained ? What would have they shown to their masses ? That we overwhelmed a local post and physically captured it scuffling with IA ? And if they indeed wanted to show that then why not escalate when they were been neaten back ? because they were not prepared ? in that case why even try ?
PLA has already seen that IA does not back down in melee situation be it Dokalam or Galwan - so what different were they expecting this time ?
Its possible that the PLA wanted to see how fast we could respond to an intrusion and reinforce a post in winter - when the already difficult terrain is snow covered. Galwan & The Ladakh intrusions (and Doklam before that) happened in summer. We would not have been able to reinforce as fast in winter. If we had not reinforced, the platoon (no more than 40 men) holding our post would have been overwhelmed by 300 Chinese.

The local PLA commander may be from a different formation from those at Ladakh with a different political master. He may have wanted to show that his men can capture a IA post occupying the heights, thus doing better than his Aksai Chin counterpart.
In the past the PLA has only occupied vacant land. In this case too, a few years ago this post might have been unoccupied in winter.
I don't think the intent was to take POW. It would have been an escalation with unpredictable consequences. I understand that we took prisoners
this time and returned them promptly. PLA might have been hoping to make our soldiers vacate their advanced post, saying it was on the PLA side.
Once the PLA realised it had the worst of the fight, it was in both side's interest to de-escalate.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Deans »

V_Raman wrote:This is putting a disproportionate cost on India. Not militarily but politically. So much time wasted by the govt to make statements etc. China seems to have achieved its purpose here - keep the govt on its toes and get distracted.
I think the govt did well not to make this a circus in Parliament (as it happened with Rafale). I would term the `disproportionate cost' as an investment in border infrastructure that we should have done decades ago. We have always had a large force designated for deployment along the LAC. We are increasingly being able to deploy them quickly, give them additional firepower and sustain the logistics for that force in combat. Moreover, 2 of our 3 divisions of our Dimapur based III corps, are now free from counter insurgency duties and can be deployed to East Arunachal.
If the Chinese need to maintain status quo, they have to deploy 3-4 additional divisions along the LAC (or 6-8 divisions worth of infantry). That's a significant cost for them too.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Prem Kumar »

Love the statements from Gen. Navarane!

1) He calls out the Chinese Army as uncivilized and unprofessional, contrasting with our own
2) But, we will meet barbarism with barbarism (melee weapons) if need be, as our troops have shown

This is not a war where only 1 side follows Dharma. We will fight dirty, while pointing out that its because the other side wants it that way. This is what Krishna advocated in Mahabharatha.

The mindset is changing
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ramana »

Larry Walker, XJP miscalculated. To relieve internal pressure he allowed the WTC troops to attack a post. And IA was ready as Tawang is the only feasible target at this time.
Yes, there could be worst footage and could be released as needed.
There are some good things out of this.
The no firearms rule still held.
And India had the upper hand in 2020 and 2022 in different sectors.
Am sure approval to use firearms if needed was there.
SSridhar
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

Prem Kumar wrote:2) But, we will meet barbarism with barbarism (melee weapons) if need be, as our troops have shown
Very true, Prem.

The Middle Kingdom with the Son of the Heaven having its Mandate to civilize the 'barbarians' outside the 'realm of China' has now been shown the mirror by the IA, not once but a few times. Gen. Naravane is effectively saying that eventually Dharmic India will 'show the place' for China. It will not be left to an arrogant, aggressive China masquerading as a benign Confucian society to show India 'its place' as Mao, Zhou and Deng said in 1962. PRC is not reading the writing on the wall, drunk as it is with its centuries-old idea that a massive show of force would frighten the enemy to surrender without a fight.
Neela
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Neela »

2009 time frame
Image

We've come a long way
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