India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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SSridhar
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

'China trying to alter status quo along LAC for many years' - ToI
Excerpts
Like in Galwan, the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) was planning to set up an observation post (OP) on the LAC, IANS reported, quoting a senior Army officer posted in the region. "It is already extremely cold there. Within the next couple of weeks, all areas close to the LAC will be under several feet of snow. On the Indian side, final preparations are being made to stock our forward positions with adequate supplies. There is a lot of troop movement as well. The PLA is certainly interested to learn more about our preparations for the winter, hence the decision to set up the OP," the army officer, who is not identified in the IANS report, said.
Former Indian Army chief General Manoj Mukund Naravane has said that China's attempts to change the status quo on the LAC by resorting to "salami slicing" tactics have led to a "more assertive" response from the Indian Army. "China has been trying to alter the status quo along the LAC for many years, decades in fact, and they have been doing this in very small incremental steps which by themselves do not look very dangerous. They look quite innocuous. What we call salami slicing, coming up one inch at a time. But in the bargain over a period of time they have gained a lot. This is the tactics they have adopted and were continuing to do,"
The Indian Air Force will carry out a two-day exercise in the Northeast involving almost all its frontline fighter jets and other assets deployed in the region. Sources said the exercise is aimed at checking the IAF's overall combat capability and military preparedness in the region. The sources said IAF's frontline fighter jets including Sukhoi-30MKIs and Rafale jets will be part of the exercise besides several other platforms deployed in the region. All frontline air bases and some key Advanced Landing Grounds (ALGs) in the Northeast are set to be involved in the exercise, said a source.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by srin »

V_Raman wrote:This is putting a disproportionate cost on India. Not militarily but politically. So much time wasted by the govt to make statements etc. China seems to have achieved its purpose here - keep the govt on its toes and get distracted.
On the contrary, it has woken up the country to the chinese threats, and paved way for investments and improvements - border infrastructure, mountain strike corps, upgraded weaponry - and a realization that chinese military can't be defeated by imported weaponry and so MII is essential.

If Chinese were patient and not started the border bullying, we'd have been content to leave the border without roads or tunnels and bought weapons to hold the Bakis at bay. Thanks to their strategic brilliance, we're now getting prepared.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Cyrano »

Exactly! It's a cost that India can afford, the Indian side of the border is populated in many areas, and the development of these areas has multiple benefits.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by mody »

Some reports suggest that one of units was being relieved by a new fresh unit and hence there was greater man power available on our side. We were able to mobilize greater number of men, as additional acclimatized troops were readily available.

Next time we might not be so lucky and the odds might be more even or stacked in the cheeni favour. However, the spirit of our men is unreplacable and I don't think the current PLA can ever match the fighting spirit of our men.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by shaun »

Neela wrote:2009 time frame
Image

We've come a long way
From this
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HZqpL22gB1E

to ..

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/nati ... 2012-05-04
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Guddu »

Image
V_Raman
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by V_Raman »

Deans wrote:
V_Raman wrote:This is putting a disproportionate cost on India. Not militarily but politically. So much time wasted by the govt to make statements etc. China seems to have achieved its purpose here - keep the govt on its toes and get distracted.
I think the govt did well not to make this a circus in Parliament (as it happened with Rafale). I would term the `disproportionate cost' as an investment in border infrastructure that we should have done decades ago. We have always had a large force designated for deployment along the LAC. We are increasingly being able to deploy them quickly, give them additional firepower and sustain the logistics for that force in combat. Moreover, 2 of our 3 divisions of our Dimapur based III corps, are now free from counter insurgency duties and can be deployed to East Arunachal.
If the Chinese need to maintain status quo, they have to deploy 3-4 additional divisions along the LAC (or 6-8 divisions worth of infantry). That's a significant cost for them too.
I am not talking about the army cost or infra cost - do whatever. political cost - people cost - everyone is running hard to counter anything and people are like - is there war? is there war?

i mean why this frenzy? play it down and build at the same time. what is the need for this collective hysteria, parliament statement etc.? public silence shows more strength and maturity.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by eklavya »

There was a serious attempt (300 troops) by the PLA to capture Indian territory. This attempt was soundly defeated by the Indian Army and the PLA had to withdraw. The government has done exactly the right thing by informing the nation. Only the losers in the CPC/PLA benefit from silence on this topic.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ramana »

eklavya, it's not all like that.
Lets see.

There are more details and videos and will get released or not. Basically, PLA is a paper lizard. They have very little combat capability. The only way they can win is to concentrate a very large force near a small force. For example, they collected 300 soldiers to overwhelm a force of 50 i.e. 6:1 which is about right in the mountains. IA immediately gathered 100 more and made it 2:1. And as Napolean says the uncounted factor is morale which IA had in plenty.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ks_sachin »

mody wrote:Some reports suggest that one of units was being relieved by a new fresh unit and hence there was greater man power available on our side. We were able to mobilize greater number of men, as additional acclimatized troops were readily available.

Next time we might not be so lucky and the odds might be more even or stacked in the cheeni favour. However, the spirit of our men is unreplacable and I don't think the current PLA can ever match the fighting spirit of our men.
When a unit is rotated only only an advance party of the new unit comes in while an advance party of the old unit has gone out. So net there is no siginificant change in number of personnel. As the advanced party beds down and get to know the AoR the remainder of the unit start to move out as the rest of the new unit starts to come in.

I am a bit skeptical of this as from all reports we had all out ducks lined up which means that the Bde Commander would have redeployed resources from other units in his AoR to this ingress point. And we are not talking 100s of troops here.

I love the fact that the media likes to bring in an element of luck whenever we do things well!!!
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ks_sachin »

V_Raman wrote:
i mean why this frenzy? play it down and build at the same time. what is the need for this collective hysteria, parliament statement etc.? public silence shows more strength and maturity.
That is in our nature as a people. If we can attempt to garland our cricketers with chappals then after a loss then.......
We have nothing to prove to anyone. Strength and maturity etc through keeping quiet are not things that matter because the required resolve has been demonstrated. Those who need to get the message get it. Lets not be apologetic about anything!!
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Deans »

ks_sachin wrote: When a unit is rotated only only an advance party of the new unit comes in while an advance party of the old unit has gone out. So net there is no siginificant change in number of personnel. As the advanced party beds down and get to know the AoR the remainder of the unit start to move out as the rest of the new unit starts to come in.

I am a bit skeptical of this as from all reports we had all out ducks lined up which means that the Bde Commander would have redeployed resources from other units in his AoR to this ingress point. And we are not talking 100s of troops here.

I love the fact that the media likes to bring in an element of luck whenever we do things well!!!
Yes. This is the problem with journos who don't know the basics of how troops are deployed and don't bother to find out. I saw a `report from ground 0' on TV, which seemed to be from Brigade or Div HQ. There was no snow on the ground and the reporter says `beyond those hills is the spot...'

Even if there was no newly inducted unit in the area, a battalion deployed in a forward position would have a rifle company in reserve (and its
heavy weapons company). A company would have a platoon in reserve. The difference with Galwan/Ladakh, was that the PLA's intrusion attempt was spotted on time and we got reinforcements to the threatened spot earlier than the PLA expected.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ernest »

ks_sachin wrote:[

I love the fact that the media likes to bring in an element of luck whenever we do things well!!!
There are media groups with their own agenda, and will put their spin accordingly. These kinds of journos, who think anything good in India is due to luck, and foreign is better types are pretty common and used to be mainstream till recently.

They are still better than those who claim all is India's fault, and China is right. This kind of blatantly anti national behavior is displayed by left media. The Hindu, in 2012, under Sid varadrajan left no stone unturned to blame border issues on India and amplify PRC propaganda. This was during Daulat beg Oldi incident. The one reason I support forces being tight lipped about border issue is these paid journos, who will twist everything forces say, and even pass off usable intelligence to enemy.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by vijayk »



Ajai Shukla on Karan Thapar show said 35 injured and 7 seriously.

My SIL sent it and was worried. They don't know who is telling the truth. This guy deliberately misleads.

Meanwhile Vishnu Som and some lady called Poonam Pandey started this thread

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 1122269184
This, however, if confirmed, is critical info. Suggests that China has constructed across the Torsa Nallah in Doklam to get access to the Jhamperi ridge. The 2017 Doklam standoff was to prevent China from getting to this ridge from where the Siliguri corridor can be sighted
https://twitter.com/pandeypoonam20/stat ... 6386621441
China has again done a big act in Doklam, made a bridge in Torsa Nala
Even in 2017, China tried to cross the Torsa Nala, then the deadlock lasted for 72 days.
China is trying to reach Jampheri Ridge
India's Siliguri Corridor may be in danger
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Aditya_V »

Why no satellite pictures and I noticed that many opposition supporters are China Pakistani supporters.

In June 2021 Ajay Shukla stated that PLA and Indian Army had clashed again in Galwan and the Indian Army had severe casualties, which the Indian army has denied.

These people have spread soo many lies that they are acting as mouth pieces of the PLA
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Prem Kumar »

So, Ajai Shukla, who served as a Colonel in the Indian Army, is claiming that the Indian Army is lying. This guy is a disgrace
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by vijayk »



Shekar Gupta thinks Chinese are doing all this because Modi is not working with opposition and hence they want to trouble him and shame him
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by sanjaykumar »

Yeah I see how the Chinese shamed him by performing satyagraha with their skulls.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Larry Walker »

There is a tandem kind of nuisance created by Pakis on the other side of border - since they cant challenge IA militarily they are targeting NaMo so that there is even more noise coupled with this PLA aggression act. Given that a Porki minister also sounded nuclear note out of the blue signals collusion between Porks and Pork-lovers. Something is coming down the pipeline.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Larry Walker »

vijayk wrote: https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 1122269184
This, however, if confirmed, is critical info. Suggests that China has constructed across the Torsa Nallah in Doklam to get access to the Jhamperi ridge. The 2017 Doklam standoff was to prevent China from getting to this ridge from where the Siliguri corridor can be sighted
https://twitter.com/pandeypoonam20/stat ... 6386621441
China has again done a big act in Doklam, made a bridge in Torsa Nala
Even in 2017, China tried to cross the Torsa Nala, then the deadlock lasted for 72 days.
China is trying to reach Jampheri Ridge
India's Siliguri Corridor may be in danger
I always have this suspicion that Northern and Middle sectors on LAC are just diversions by PLA with the aim to stretch IA thin. Any massing on the Northern front not only needs to be protected from PRC side but also from Porki side which increases logistics and decreases maneuvering capabilities for IA. PRC's intent is always the double pronged en-masse attack coming down Siliguri corridor (through Dokalam) and coming down from Tawang on eastern side. If either of these prongs achieve their target (occupy chickens neck or reach Brahmaputra on eastern flank - it will sever all commns between mainland and NE states. PLA may not be able to do more than that and IA may counter-attack - but PRC will declare ceasefire and pull back before it goes nuclear. If this happens - it will be a crippling blow on our pysche. This is what i worry about.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by konaseema »

With 4 Corps of the Indian Army stationed between Panagarh & Dimapur (with each one having Mountain Divisions), I think we have enough force to stop any such Chinese aggression. We also have 2 corps based out of Mathura & Yol to cover the middle section. Any additional support can be provided by the Bhopal based Corps as well.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Deans »

konaseema wrote:With 4 Corps of the Indian Army stationed between Panagarh & Dimapur (with each one having Mountain Divisions), I think we have enough force to stop any such Chinese aggression. We also have 2 corps based out of Mathura & Yol to cover the middle section. Any additional support can be provided by the Bhopal based Corps as well.
We significantly outnumber the PLA all along the LAC. What we need to focus on is increasing the firepower of our formations and improving infrastructure, so that we can concentrate force.

In the North East we have: (all are mountain divisions).

IV corps - 3 Divisions, for Western Arunachal. (earlier it was the whole of Arunachal)
XXXIII Corps - 3 Divisions for Sikkim/ Bhutan.
III Corps - 3 Divisions. Earlier it was mostly for COIN. Now 2 divisions can be deployed to cover East Arunachal, as insurgency has died down.
XVII Corps - Pangarh. 1 of its 2 divisions will be available for the NE
23 Infantry Division in Ranchi - Usually meant for Ops against Pak, but can be quickly deployed to the NE.

The entire infantry strength of the PLA equals those in the above formations.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by k prasad »

Deans wrote:We significantly outnumber the PLA all along the LAC. What we need to focus on is increasing the firepower of our formations and improving infrastructure, so that we can concentrate force.
Good point Deans. Let's not forget we will also have airpower parity (if not superiority) compared to PLAAF thanks to lower take-off altitudes & range-to-targets.

The issue(s) as I see them are:

(1) Relatively shallow strategic depth, which means that even small successful incursions by PLA can have a disproportionately negative impact for us (especially in Ladakh) vs the amount of damage we might be able to inflict on China with a similar depth of advance. Unless we can strike & hold the G219 and destroy the Tibet railway, China will be territorially secure, for the most part.

(2) Infrastructure parity vis-a-vis Tibet, primarily due to terrain & weather issues, and lack of funding till relatively recently.

(3) We're still allowing PRC to control the escalatory ladder & the corresponding triggers. I suspect that the dragon has sharp teeth, but a relatively weak belly, and we need to show our claws sometimes, rather than playing on the backfoot all the time.

Even in a large scale, theater-focussed conflict, I doubt that the PLA can make successful incursions more than a few kilometers deep, and I suspect IA would probably have similar limits in their attempts. The problem is to which side those kilometers lost is more damaging.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by konaseema »

We would need a repeat of the Nathu La incident of 1967 to clearly assess the strength of the Dragon's under belly. I am not sure what is the current definition of the escalatory ladder in Indian Military doctrine that will call for a similar action by India or we may well need another Maj. General of the caliber of the indomitable Lt. Gen Sagat Singh (then Maj. General) to find it out.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

Sorry, no URL.

Why Yangtse? - By: Lt Gen Shantanu Dayal (Retd) 

It had to be Yangtse, the Yangtse, which was blessed by Guru Rimpoche, also known as Padmasambhava, the professor of Nalanda University in the 8th century, who introduced Tantric Buddhism to Tibet. 

The Yangtse, which has the famous Chumi Gyatse waterfalls, also called holy waterfalls, revered by Buddhists on both sides of the LAC dividing India and China in the Tawang Sector, and which has 108 water springs emerging from the spots where Guru Rimpoche threw his prayer beads.

 The Yangtse, where the grazing rights of the opposing villagers were attempted to be resolved in the famous expedition of Sir Francis Younghusband in the first few years of the 20th Century.

It had to be Yangtse, which was captured by the Indian Army in response to the Chinese intrusion in Sumdorong Chu in 1987. Yangtse has defied habitation for ages, due to extreme terrain and weather. It had to be Yangtse, where Chief Minister Pema Khandu inaugurated a gompa under the Chumi Gyatse waterfalls in July 2020, barely a few hundred yards from the LAC.


Chumi Gyatse waterfalls

Yangtse is steeped in history, religion, politics, and military strategy and is the most prominent among the eight major flash points on the Eastern LAC. For the Peoples Liberation Army (PLA), Yangtse is perhaps the most sought after feature in the Eastern Sector.

Yangtse is a massive plateau approximately 25 to 30 km northeast of Tawang. It has peaks ranging from 14,000 to 17,000 feet on one side and the holy waterfall at 11,000 feet on the other. In the remote corners of the Yangtse Plateau also grow the famed Brahma Kamals and some rare varieties of rhododendron. It is also one of the most picturesque areas of Arunachal Pradesh. 

A foothold on the Yangtse plateau affords a more advantageous tactical position to the Chinese military.

The Chinese have already made an all-weather blacktop road to their side of the LAC in the valley below, which is used by the PLA as well as tourists from Tibet and mainland China.

 It is the grit and determination of the Indian soldiers who not only survive in the inhospitable terrain of the Yangtse Plateau but have also been repeatedly thwarting the PLA’s attempts to intrude and transgress into this sensitive and militarily critical area in the Kameng Sector.

The Peoples Liberation Army is perhaps still smarting from the loss of Yangtse in 1987-88. Combined with the Indian Army’s domineering position over the Sumdorong Chu and the Namka Chu Valleys, the 1962 equations have, in effect been, reversed in the Tawang Sector. 

The capability development and the infrastructural building on the Indian side have been phenomenal in the past few years, which in turn have very substantially negated the advantageous position the Chinese had in the yesteryears.

In the Tawang sector, the PLA has been forced into a compromised position with the ‘checkmate’ in clear sight. 

The PLA apparently finds itself relatively weak and militarily inadequate to match the growing domination of the military space by the Indian Army. 

The repeated efforts to seek dominating positions by the PLA are perhaps a manifestation of this emerging security state and that the Indian Army is confident of thwarting the nefarious designs of the adversary every time is a present day truism on the LAC.

Lt Gen Shantanu Dayal (Retd)

ABOUT THE AUTHOR

Lt Gen Shantanu Dayal, UYSM, AVSM, SM, VSM (retd) is a former Deputy Chief of Army Staff (CD&S) who retired on 31 Oct 2022. He commanded the Gajraj Corps in 2020, with responsibility over the Tawang – Yangtse Sector, amongst others.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ks_sachin »

Deans wrote:
Even if there was no newly inducted unit in the area, a battalion deployed in a forward position would have a rifle company in reserve (and its
heavy weapons company). A company would have a platoon in reserve. The difference with Galwan/Ladakh, was that the PLA's intrusion attempt was spotted on time and we got reinforcements to the threatened spot earlier than the PLA expected.
Deans spoke to Dad.

The Adm Coy in an Inf Bn has next to no fighting elements. The Support Coy (MMG/Mortars) are deployed between the 4 rifle Coys depending on threat perception in AoR. So an Inf Bn generally will not have reserves.

Reserves will be pulled in from other Bns in sector (rarely) or designated reserves but all depends on threat perception.

Change of Bns in field areas is different from change in peace locations. In field the Bn will not be releived till the incoming Bn has taken over the AoR completely.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

Mental health – the big stress test for China’s military ambitions - SCMP
China's military is turning its attention to the mental health of its troops as training and deployments make ever growing demands on personnel, according to state media reports.

The People’s Liberation Army has introduced counselling services, regular assessments and courses to help troops deal with the stress of their assignments and cope in combat.

According to reports in the PLA Daily, people are the decisive factor in combat and mental stability is key to effectiveness.

“Only when soldiers’ mental health is guaranteed can the troops be more effective in combat,” the PLA Daily quoted an unnamed official as saying.

Chinese President Xi Jinping has repeatedly called on the PLA to improve training and ensure combat readiness as the country confronts “heightened instabilities and uncertainties” in security.

The military has responded by mounting large-scale exercises and regular patrols in disputed areas, including the Taiwan Strait, the South China Sea and China’s Himalayan border with India.{I believe that this is one of the reasons for the issues at Ladakh & AP}

PLA warplanes have been flying near Taiwan almost daily in recent years and exercises in the area reached unprecedented levels in August after US House speaker Nancy Pelosi visited the island.

A PLA Daily report last month said some officers and soldiers were prone to anxiety in intense combat training, and troops needed to learn how to adapt to that pressure to perform in the field.

“In recent years, as combat training has advanced, frontline troops have faced significantly more intense and difficult training tasks, and some officers and soldiers are prone to nervousness, anxiety and other emotions,” the report said.

It said that in one special warfare brigade taking the lead in this area, files were kept on each soldier and officer, recording their psychological state and behaviour. Follow-up services and training courses were also introduced to help young officers and soldiers maintain a good mental state.

A brigade from the 73rd Group Army also launched “online psychological services” to help officers and soldiers experiencing “fearful emotions” after taking part in difficult field training exercises.

And during an anti-stress training organised by the 71st Group Army in June, military doctors collected and analysed data on the mental state of officers and soldiers throughout the process, according to the PLA Daily. {73rd & 71st are in ETC, but I do not expect it to be any different in WTC}

Interventions were made and one psychological counsellor had been assigned to each battalion, it said.

The need to address pressure from missions was highlighted by a Naval Medical University in Shanghai last year.

Researchers found that one in five male sailors serving with China’s submarine force in the South China Sea experienced mental health problems, and the sea’s strategic importance to China was likely to be one of the contributing factors.

Beijing-based naval analyst Li Jie said the demands of combat readiness in disputed waters raised psychological pressure among personnel and should be taken seriously.

“The situation in the South China Sea has intensified. There are more tasks than in the past … No matter whether on or below the surface, there have been more encounters between Chinese warships and those of the US or other Western countries,” Li said.

“The state of combat readiness must be maintained, so it will increase the mental pressure on soldiers,” Li said, adding that this was not just a problem for the PLA.

Fu Qianshao, a retired equipment expert from the PLA Air Force, said PLA pilots were conducting more difficult tasks and the impact on their mental health should be addressed.

“Flying warplanes involves complex training, and the problem of such psychological stress is not something new,” Fu said.

“But the equipment technology has risen and the training intensified, with new real combat training added. For example, ultra-low-altitude flight and complex terrain flight are now greatly increased.”

At the same time, tougher training is needed to ensure mental endurance, he said.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Manish_P »

Inter-services co-operation.. maximising use of the capabilities of a true multi-role platform

Amid LAC tension, India using naval assets for land border surveillance

Image
India now is regularly using naval reconnaissance capabilities to boost its surveillance of land borders with China, both to monitor troop build-ups as well as infrastructure upgrades, amid heightened tensions along the Line of Actual Control (LAC).

The Navy is deploying P-8I long-range patrol aircraft and heavy-duty Sea Guardian drones "as and when tasked" on the Army's request for intelligence-gathering missions along the northern borders, defence ministry sources told TOI on Sunday.

The US-origin P-8I aircraft and Sea Guardians, both of which are capable of providing 'live feeds' of high-resolution imagery with their electro-optic and other advanced sensors, supplement the ongoing use of satellites and the Israeli Heron unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ashishvikas »

Exclusive: China War-Gamed Arunachal With Drones, Jets After Tawang Clash

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/exclusi ... sh-3619284
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Prem Kumar »

P8Is were used post-Doklam as well. We discovered that the radar/SAR modes work quite well over land terrain. MQ-9Bs have also demonstrated stupendous uptimes. Heck of a good buy!

Hope Rustom comes on board soon enough, so that it can supplement these assets
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Larry Walker »

k prasad wrote: (1) Relatively shallow strategic depth, which means that even small successful incursions by PLA can have a disproportionately negative impact for us (especially in Ladakh) vs the amount of damage we might be able to inflict on China with a similar depth of advance. Unless we can strike & hold the G219 and destroy the Tibet railway, China will be territorially secure, for the most part.
Lack of strategic depth is a problem. On Paki side most of their main centers are much nearer to the border as compared to Indian side. So Pakis are mostly focused on defensive rather than an offensive.
On Arunachal side - we dont have strategic depth in the sense that our centers are much-much nearer to the border as compared to anything valuable on Chinese side.
So we have to defend a lot more axis and this will thin out our firepower. On the other hand PLA has the liberty to concentrate their fire-power on few axis to achieve desired result even if it is for a short window. We trying to do a reverse-offensive only means we will end up in a give and take situation once there is cease-fire - but since our sensitive centers are much nearer to LAC - PLA will be in a dominating situation and this will have a psychological impact on our population.
JTull
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by JTull »

Why P8I? Why aren't the two Global 5000 aircraft modified by IAI for IAF being used?
Barath
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Barath »

Prem Kumar wrote:P8Is were used post-Doklam as well. We discovered that the radar/SAR modes work quite well over land terrain.

The P8i has been used in the dhoklam standoff and earlier during the initial LoAC standoff in 2021, too. The previous CDS had remarked on it. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 178644.cms

The p8a is supposed to be used not just over maritimes, but littorals with a plan by the usn to use and arm them against land

While there was a recent post elsewhere of MQ9B https://www.reddit.com/r/IndianDefense/ ... ompleting/ being seen on flight tracker near the land border, this is the first time it has been reported by the press, i believe.

The navy gets to show off MQ9B ISR capabilities to the services that have been reluctant to move forward with the buy (the army especially).

The IAF is supposed to have a 707, a 737, and some gulfstreams and global 5000 for recon per wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... #Air_Force. Wonder why no reference to them
But it is a reflection on how the 12 P8i with its export-controlled /modified radar, no special AAS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Airborne_Sensor pods (see P8A) is useful.


But it is also an example of inter service co-operation

---
https://apps.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=115056&x=

> Modify APY-10 Radar for Export to India

* - Modify Radar navigator to remove accumulated carrier phase and revert to earlier, less sophisticated navigator
* - Remove Precision Targeting capability
* - Remove UHR ISAR capability
* - Remove 1 and 3 foot SAR capability
* - Limit performance to meet 30 meter SAR geo-location accuracy
* + Add an Interleaved Weather Capability
* + Add an Air-to-Air Target Detection / Tracking Capability


.

[Btw, this lack of precision targeting is one reason why missiles like lrasm from p8A to be brought to P8i would need more work.. before one can think of it..

In any case, with the above limits on SAR, and navigation, i figured it really ideally ought to have been bettered in russian, israeli or indian isr equipment for indian use..
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Deans »

ks_sachin wrote: The Adm Coy in an Inf Bn has next to no fighting elements. The Support Coy (MMG/Mortars) are deployed between the 4 rifle Coys depending on threat perception in AoR. So an Inf Bn generally will not have reserves.

Reserves will be pulled in from other Bns in sector (rarely) or designated reserves but all depends on threat perception.
Thanks Sachin. The point I was trying to make was that in a hand to hand fight, without guns, I believe the Btn Support Coy / HQ Coy would be no different from the rifle companies, in their josh and fighting skill.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Deans »

The Chinese in Tibet have vulnerable chokepoints.

All supplies for the LAC arrive on 2 railway lines (single track) that terminate at Lhasa-Shigatse (East) and Hotan (Xinjiang) in the Aksi Chin area.
A single derailment or blown up culvert can cripple the rail network.

The single road from Hotan to Aksai Chin is 900km (much more than crow flies distance) over bad terrain, vulnerable to landslides.
Similarly, last mile road connectivity from the G-219 highway to the likely PLA Brigade / Battalion HQ locations are narrow and vulnerable to landslides (which can happen if a bomb explodes in the mountains, on either side of the road). See the road connectivity from Lhasa to the area between Sikkim and Bhutan (Doklam area) to see how vulnerable that road would be to our artillery.
If a single tunnel near Lhasa is blocked, it cripples road transport moving south from the railhead of Lhasa.

Some of the G-219 is vulnerable to MLRS strikes, including the logistics hubs of Ngari in the West and Nyingchi in the East.
If the IAF attacks the G-219, the mountains shield them from ground radar, almost until they get to the flat land where the G-219 is. Anti aircraft batteries will get barely a couple of minutes warning.
Its easier to locate targets from the air in Tibet, where the land is completely flat and featureless, than on our side where there are mountains and forest.

The altitude in Tibet makes transport by helicopter for the PLA a non starter. Indian bases are at lower altitudes.
Last edited by Deans on 19 Dec 2022 19:35, edited 1 time in total.
rohitvats
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by rohitvats »

^^^ Thank god we've some critical assessment of the vulnerabilities on the Chinese side as well. Otherwise, you'll see constant R&R only about Indian weaknesses.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Aditya_V »

Also China has to ship food, ammo spare parts from 2500km away, in the cold thin environment of the Tibet plateau, will have some effect on long term storage also, like Ammo in extreme cold etc. So they will need a fleet load of trucks moving to front line, they also very little cover on the Tibet plateau. Thier advantage is Tibet land is not much of a loss for them, it's only killing and capturing thier soldiers that matters more to them w.r.t Indian Battle field.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Anoop »

The major drawback for India along the LAC is the moratorium on the use of firearms. This negates the major advantage we derive from our vantage observation points, because it allows the PLA to approach up to the actual friction points e.g. Yangtse plateau, unimpeded. Whereas, if this situation had been along the LoC, the PA could not have approached anywhere close. At some point, we need to take a call on this. I hope that doesn't wait for the loss of a post. An example of a glide path to trashing these agreements has been provide by the PLA itself. We can start by firing from the rear areas to warn against advance, firing overhead to warn advancing parties, use of non-lethal bullets etc.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by sanjaykumar »

That’s one reason it is difficult to comment on India China clashes along the LAC. It now transpires that Indians have been in possession of this large plateau, Yangtze, since 1987.

Does Col. Ajay Shukla know? Does Rahul Gandhi tweet about it?


The GoI keeps almost all from its public, it is much too sensitive about details.
Deans
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Deans »

Aditya_V wrote:Also China has to ship food, ammo spare parts from 2500km away, in the cold thin environment of the Tibet plateau, will have some effect on long term storage also, like Ammo in extreme cold etc. So they will need a fleet load of trucks moving to front line, they also very little cover on the Tibet plateau. Thier advantage is Tibet land is not much of a loss for them, it's only killing and capturing thier soldiers that matters more to them w.r.t Indian Battle field.
Most Chinese units are in the Eastern part of the country. The average rail distance to Hotan (nearest railhead to Ladakh) is 3200 km.
Even water has to be moved that distance. the Tibet plateau can just about provide any food or water for the small local population.
Then you have 900 km of a road journey, to forward positions on the LAC.

There is insufficient local labor to unload railway wagons at high altitude. The labor that is there may not be sufficiently loyal. So you have to first bring in support formations to handle logistics, construct repair bases, build housing, fuel and ammo dumps etc. They need time to be acclimitised.
IA needs a fraction of the trucks PLA needs to supply an Indian brigade, because the distances from railheads to Brigade HQ is much shorter
and because some items are procured locally - like water and food, or we have pre-existing stocks of ammo.
The PLA brigades also have a lot more armored vehicles than a IA mountain brigade, which means more POL requirements, more spares, repair workshops etc. They however have less infantry than IA units. That again means labor to prepare facilities and fighting positions in a terrain that is completely flat and devoid of any existing structures.

That said, the PLA is able to support a Corps sized formation in East Ladakh, but I doubt they have the fuel, ammo and other supplies for sustained combat and I doubt they can triple this force, which is what they need to overcome our defenses in Ladakh.

On our side, the Bilaspur-Mandi-Leh railway line, when completed, will be a game changer, enabling us to rapidly move a corps level formation from Punjab to Ladakh.
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