India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
Deans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2509
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Deans »

sanjaykumar wrote:That’s one reason it is difficult to comment on India China clashes along the LAC. It now transpires that Indians have been in possession of this large plateau, Yangtze, since 1987.

Does Col. Ajay Shukla know? Does Rahul Gandhi tweet about it?

The GoI keeps almost all from its public, it is much too sensitive about details.
Ajai Shukla, is a well known Cong supporter (Bro-in-law is Suman Dubey, Wife has Cong connections).
He was a Armoured corps officer who has never served on the LAC, but is a China expert.
Also, believed to be a `consultant' with Western arms companies.
Anoop
BRFite
Posts: 632
Joined: 16 May 2002 11:31

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Anoop »

Deans, I doubt that the PLA strategy is to occupy ground if it will be contested. Even historically, they have withdrawn behind their claim lines e.g. 1962. Their current model of kinetic warfare will probably be firepower oriented, followed by unilateral ceasefire to retain escalation control. What that means is their logistical footprint for fuel, food and water will be less than if they were to attempt to occupy ground. Furthermore, they already are able to sustain large airbases, cantonments and missile silos in the TAR, so forward stocking has already happened. Rotating units coming for exercises remain deployed, suggesting that logistical footprint is already there.

From a kinetic warfare point of view, India needs significant ISR capability and sensor to shooter coordination to track and destroy their artillery and missile batteries, followed by visual BDA. The last point is crucial, because this will become a war of narrative.
Larry Walker
BRFite
Posts: 488
Joined: 26 Nov 2019 17:33

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Larry Walker »

There are taunts and insinuations in some previous posts that some of us are irrationally scared of PLA. While there may be an element of truth there - what I would also humbly submit is that we should stop looking at current LAC threats from Kargil lenses. Those were different times. We had to deploy a mammoth force because we did not have artillery or the CAS power to effectively subdue the few sangars and bunkers and then hold that ground. And neither did we have enough surveillance and air-power to disrupt the Paki logistics trail. PLA is not constrained by these factors which IA was handicapped with. They have enough and more ammunition and weapons to throw at us and then try to maneuver aggressively where gaps open, We too have these capabilities but in limited number and not enough to hold PLA beyond 1-2 axis. If they have a long supply chain which has choke-points so do we. Just because there is a large population in vicinity does not deliver us a God-hand in terms of logistics and PoL - we are not talking about guerrilla war here. In fact having this large population centers in vicinity will lead to amplifying even small loses on our side. Tezpur may hardly be 140-150 kms from Tawang. If Tawang falls do you think general population in Tezpur and around it will just casually sit ? I fear there will be an exodus which will further complicate our precarious logistic trail. We have an extremely brave army and they will go superhuman length when Chinkis come - but we should recognize how we can help them take the fight to the Chinkis and not get them into a last-stand in their own motherland
I end my rant here //
Anoop
BRFite
Posts: 632
Joined: 16 May 2002 11:31

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Anoop »

The other disadvantage India has along the LAC is the power disparity between Nepal/Bhutan and China which allows China to extract land/access concession to the LAC.
Deans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2509
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Deans »

Anoop wrote:Deans, I doubt that the PLA strategy is to occupy ground if it will be contested. Even historically, they have withdrawn behind their claim lines e.g. 1962. Their current model of kinetic warfare will probably be firepower oriented, followed by unilateral ceasefire to retain escalation control. What that means is their logistical footprint for fuel, food and water will be less than if they were to attempt to occupy ground. Furthermore, they already are able to sustain large airbases, cantonments and missile silos in the TAR, so forward stocking has already happened. Rotating units coming for exercises remain deployed, suggesting that logistical footprint is already there.
Anoop, I think we are saying the same thing. I agree that the PLA will not seek to occupy contested land and I think its because they don't have
the logistics capacity for their existing force to defeat us, as of now.
Also, while the PLA has built several airfields for e.g. those airfields to not have any hardened shelters, secondary runways, dispersed storage tanks and no sign of anti aircraft defenses (see google earth). It will take time to get these to a war footing. Our China oriented airbases like Gorakhpur or Tezpur, look a lot more like operational bases.

Along the LAC flash points, both sides look like having temporary structures, but in a Div HQ area, our cantonments like Leh, Dras or Yol, look more like permanent cantonments than what the Chinese so far have. Of course, the Chinese can build what they need, but it takes time and in the meantime we are closing the infrastructure gap.

My view is that we need to keep the Chinese quiet for 3-4 years, by which time the worst gaps in out infrastructure, artillery, sensors and aircraft shortages should be plugged. During that time PLA should ideally decide that their top priority is taking Taiwan by 2027 (that's the US/Taiwan assessment) with a second priority being land grab in the South China sea, both of which will require the PLA to close its own gaps with US.
They can't do both that and plan for a conventional war along the LAC.
konaseema
BRFite
Posts: 115
Joined: 16 Nov 2020 09:54

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by konaseema »

If there is any truth to the current worsening Covid crisis in China, we can rule out a major conflict with China in the next 1-2 years. But we can always expect minor scuffles all along the LAC to be reported every now and then. If we can somehow manage to deter China from attacking us till 2030, then we would have made a quantum leap in our overall capabilities (Army, Navy, Air Force, Rocket Force & Strategic Forces).
Ashokk
BRFite
Posts: 1118
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Ashokk »

China has constructed a 'sealed' road leading to within 150m of LAC ridge-line
NEW DELHI: China's rapid infrastructure development in Tawang sector now allows it to swiftly deploy additional troops there.
Based on satellite imagery analysis of key areas along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in the region, the study comes after the physical clash between Indian and Chinese soldiers at Yangtse left several soldiers on both sides injured on December 9.
"While India maintains control of the commanding position on the Yangtse plateau's high ground, China has compensated for this disadvantage by building new military and transport infrastructure that allows it to get troops quickly into the area," the study said.
In the wake of the recent border clash in the Tawang sector, a senior defence analyst examines the options before India in dealing with an increasingly belligerent China
China has upgraded several key access dirt roads and constructed a 'sealed' road leading from Tangwu New Village to within 150-metre of the LAC ridge-line. "There is also currently a small PLA camp at the end of this road. It was the construction of this new road that enabled Chinese troops to surge upwards to Indian positions during the December 9 skirmish," the study said.
While troop disengagements and redeployments at Galwan and Pangong Tso in eastern Ladakh have reduced the risk of conflict, the opposite trend is taking place at the Yangtse plateau. "The recent provocative moves by Chinese troops to test the readiness of border outposts and erode the status quo at Yangtse have set a dangerous precedent," it said.
China’s rapid infrastructure development, including a new road just across the strategically-located Yangtse in the Tawang sector of Arunachal Pradesh, now allows it to swiftly deploy additional troops there, although India continues to control the crucial ridgeline or high ground in the plateau,
As reported by TOI earlier, the manner in which China has systemically strengthened its military positions and infrastructure all along the entire 3,488-km LAC, stretching from eastern Ladakh to Arunachal, shows it has no plan to de-escalate heightened tensions with India in the near future.
India, of course, strongly guards Arunachal Pradesh, especially the Tawang sector that China claims as 'South Tibet', with "more than adequate" number of troops as well as firepower backed by enhanced surveillance capabilities to "hold" the 1,126-km LAC stretch in the state.
A senior Army officer said, "The PLA has always been unhappy about our presence on the Yangtse plateau, which overlooks its positions and roads, since the protracted Sumdorong Chu stand-off in 1986-87."
"Yes, China has upgraded its infrastructure in the sector. But we too have layered defences and enough reserves. We could quickly mobilise additional troops after detecting the around 300 PLA soldiers who tried to change the status quo at Yangtse on December 9," the officer said.
The ASPI study said India's defences along the Yangtse plateau consist of a network of six relatively small frontline outposts, which are supplied by a forward base which is about 1.5 km from the LAC. Indian forces are based in "significant" deployments in valleys below plateau which are connected by steep dirt tracks.
The Indian positions are not impregnable to a concerted assault, the study said, noting that satellite imagery shows the dirt tracks or roads are already suffering from erosion and landslides due to their steep grade, environmental conditions and relatively poor construction.
In an "open conflict", attacks on these dirt tracks would easily leave frontline Indian positions cut off from resupply, which coupled with PLA's "surge capability", could prove decisive, the study said.
VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2982
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by VinodTK »

^^^ Why does the Indian population have to wait until an unfriendly incident to occur and slowly information starts to come out in drips and drabs!
- Yet the Chinese build was never raised as a concern in the parliament, no budget requested to upgrading the roads
- Why massive counter measures have not been executed
(old song will be played out we cannot disclose the information because it is confidential,
when we can see what the chines are doing; I am more then sure the Chinese can see our development)
- Only xxxxs don't learn learn from past mistakes (Doklam, Ladakh, now this incident near Tawang) :(
vimal
BRFite
Posts: 1904
Joined: 27 Jul 2017 10:32

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by vimal »

^^ I’m sure MPs from areas like Ladhak and Arunanchal raise such questions but their pleas fall into deaf years like it has been for decades.
Deans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2509
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Deans »

VinodTK wrote:^^^ Why does the Indian population have to wait until an unfriendly incident to occur and slowly information starts to come out in drips and drabs!
- Yet the Chinese build was never raised as a concern in the parliament, no budget requested to upgrading the roads
- Why massive counter measures have not been executed
(old song will be played out we cannot disclose the information because it is confidential,
when we can see what the chines are doing; I am more then sure the Chinese can see our development)
- Only xxxxs don't learn learn from past mistakes (Doklam, Ladakh, now this incident near Tawang) :(
In all fairness, in the last 6 years, we built more roads (and bridges) to access the LAC, than in the previous 50 years. While we have a long way to go, our pace of infra development along the LAC, in the last 6 years, has outpaced China's.

Not long ago, we had a single company defending Daulat Beg Oldi in the extreme north of the LAC, supplied by mule in summer and air in winter.
Today there is a whole brigade backed up by tanks, with an all weather access road from Leh.

I think our strategic objective should be to make the LAC China's 3rd priority, after Taiwan and the South China sea and make the expected cost of gaining territory there not worth the perceived gain to China.
Deans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2509
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Deans »

vimal wrote:^^ I’m sure MPs from areas like Ladhak and Arunanchal raise such questions but their pleas fall into deaf years like it has been for decades.
The change today is that Ladakh is not longer part of J&K. The MP Jamyang Tsering, is a strong advocate of defending Ladakh. For Arunachal, minister Kiren Rijju is the best advocate for the state and we had Gen. VK Singh given additional charge as minister for the North East.
Ashokk
BRFite
Posts: 1118
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Ashokk »

Garud commandos deployed at the LAC
(watch from 3:28 for details on the weapons)
nits
BRFite
Posts: 1156
Joined: 01 May 2006 22:56
Location: Some where near Equator...

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by nits »

^^ does they mean LAC IAF stations? or on borders as Garud is not a Border Protection force
JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3118
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by JTull »

These may be for SAR as air operations have grown considerably.
ks_sachin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2906
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ks_sachin »

They are detachments embedded with IA SF bns and take part in regular ops.

Much like SF bns who are based elsewhere send detachments to J&K. For example 2 Para SF which is down south has 2 Coy worth of troops up North.

Nothing like live action to hone combat skills.

SAR is just one of the jobs of Garuds
JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3118
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by JTull »

ks_sachin wrote:SAR is just one of the jobs of Garuds
You're right, and I am aware of this.

Since none of us know what is the real reason, we are all speculating here.

It could be for operational reasons as I mentioned, or it could be based on intelligence about specific threats to air assets in the region. Or it could be just routine orientation training.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18273
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/pradiprsagar/status ... YGd-SRLuRQ ---> For Chinese, Eastern Ladakh issue is now sorted out to their satisfaction. They have denied Indian Army patrol (Depsang & Demchok) in areas which they never wanted. Now, they are focusing on other areas on LAC.

Image

Image
ks_sachin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2906
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ks_sachin »

JTull,

Garuds and Marcos are involved in regular CI Ops as well as part of their deployment in the valley.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ramana »

Agree to previous roles of Garuds.
Baba Benaras guy was saying there is an enhanced threat to forward airfields and helipads.
So they are being deployed there.
ks_sachin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2906
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ks_sachin »

Ramana sir,

I trust you. Baba Banaras is the same as Baba Aamras for me.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ramana »

Twitter reports show that XJP was in Riyadh on Dec 8th at the start of his Middle East tour.
Meantime his soldiers were trying non-lethal combat moves in #Yangtse.

Could be to be incommunicado while they attack.

Looks like it didn't work.
Ashokk
BRFite
Posts: 1118
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Ashokk »

China stands ready to work with India: Chinese foreign minister Wang Yi
BEIJING: Chinese foreign minister Wang Yi, on Sunday, said that China is ready to work with India through steady and sound growth of the relations, according to the Chinese Foreign Ministry website.
While addressing the reporters on China's relations with India, Wang said, "China and India have maintained communication through the diplomatic and military-to-military channels, and both countries are committed to upholding stability in the border areas. We stand ready to work with India in the direction toward steady and sound growth of China-India relations."
eklavya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2159
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 23:57

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by eklavya »

Bare faced lie by Wang Yi. Actions speak louder than words.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32282
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by chetak »

eklavya wrote:Bare faced lie by Wang Yi. Actions speak louder than words.
not a "bare faced lie" but a much desired outcome that many white skin countries in the world want

if the govt changes, everyone will be back to the neverwho ++ days where goras and goris had a free run, and eyetalians with strange names like snamprogetti were commonly recognizable and these "family friend" termites were running amok kicking around cabinet ministers, feasting off the public trough, their greedy snouts buried deep into the pockets of the exchequer

It is as easy as that.

those are the halcyon days that they are all striving to bring back again and that is why pappu has been promised the top job by the BIF
Guddu
BRFite
Posts: 1054
Joined: 01 Dec 2008 06:22

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Guddu »

Ashokk wrote:China stands ready to work with India: Chinese foreign minister Wang Yi
BEIJING: Chinese foreign minister Wang Yi, on Sunday, said that China is ready to work with India through steady and sound growth of the relations, according to the Chinese Foreign Ministry website.
While addressing the reporters on China's relations with India, Wang said, "China and India have maintained communication through the diplomatic and military-to-military channels, and both countries are committed to upholding stability in the border areas. We stand ready to work with India in the direction toward steady and sound growth of China-India relations."
Looks like China is pressurizing Taiwan, they tried the stick with us (Dec 9 Tawang) which failed, now the carrot. One of these days they will make their move on Taiwan, we have to be ready to make ours (POK). My speculation is that the Agniveer scheme will play a huge part in this. You will need many militarily trained civilians to keep the peace once we take back POK.
rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7830
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by rohitvats »

ramana wrote:Agree to previous roles of Garuds.
Baba Benaras guy was saying there is an enhanced threat to forward airfields and helipads.
So they are being deployed there.
Please do not rule out Air Assault by the PLA using their substantial helicopter assets to take Advanced Landing Grounds (ALG) in considerable strength (first using helicopters and then fixed wing a/c to bring more troops) and force a major setback in terms of loss of considerable area.
Anoop
BRFite
Posts: 632
Joined: 16 May 2002 11:31

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Anoop »

rohitvats wrote: Please do not rule out Air Assault by the PLA using their substantial helicopter assets to take Advanced Landing Grounds (ALG) in considerable strength (first using helicopters and then fixed wing a/c to bring more troops) and force a major setback in terms of loss of considerable area.
Seems like an much riskier option for the PLA when their purpose would be easier served by denying the IA and the IAF use of the ALGs by missile and rocket attacks. The air approaches to the ALG can be covered easier from our side by SAMs because of the terrain and the PLA has to contend with greater payload limitations for their air bridge. On the other hand, denying the use of the ALG, even by damage, to us would put us at a greater disadvantage to surge troops.
Last edited by Anoop on 27 Dec 2022 04:48, edited 1 time in total.
k prasad
BRFite
Posts: 962
Joined: 21 Oct 2007 17:38
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow
Contact:

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by k prasad »

rohitvats wrote:
ramana wrote:Agree to previous roles of Garuds.
Baba Benaras guy was saying there is an enhanced threat to forward airfields and helipads.
So they are being deployed there.
Please do not rule out Air Assault by the PLA using their substantial helicopter assets to take Advanced Landing Grounds (ALG) in considerable strength (first using helicopters and then fixed wing a/c to bring more troops) and force a major setback in terms of loss of considerable area.
Rohitvats-ji, given the altitude these ALGs are at, PLA will need SIGNIFICANT helo assets to insert a sufficiently-sized force to take the ALGs. Even with nape of the earth flying by the helos, they will consistently be at 15-16k ft and over, at which point, each helo can carry maybe 2-3 troops each, and assuming an ALG requires atleast 2 coys worth of troops (more likely, it'll be a battalion+ strength needed), we're talking about at least 100 helos that need to be used, along with other support assets. These can be easily picked off by SAMs or AAA guns, and even if a significant force can be landed, the defenders will still have the advantage, and unless there's coordinated PLA ground reinforcements in place (unlikely given our surveillance abilities currently), the assault will probably be doomed.

Given all this, do you see any way for such assaults to actually work? Wouldn't it be more likely the Chinese just focus on area denial using missiles, arty & other air assets, rather than area control using ground assault?
Anoop
BRFite
Posts: 632
Joined: 16 May 2002 11:31

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Anoop »

https://www.deccanherald.com/national/e ... 34465.html

The ALGs in AP may be more amenable to airborne assault by the PLA, on account of the terrain on our side.
Deans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2509
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Deans »

k prasad wrote: Rohitvats-ji, given the altitude these ALGs are at, PLA will need SIGNIFICANT helo assets to insert a sufficiently-sized force to take the ALGs. Even with nape of the earth flying by the helos, they will consistently be at 15-16k ft and over, at which point, each helo can carry maybe 2-3 troops each, and assuming an ALG requires atleast 2 coys worth of troops (more likely, it'll be a battalion+ strength needed), we're talking about at least 100 helos that need to be used, along with other support assets.

Given all this, do you see any way for such assaults to actually work? Wouldn't it be more likely the Chinese just focus on area denial using missiles, arty & other air assets, rather than area control using ground assault?
Not just the altitude (PLA air bases are at a much high altitude than ours), PLA pilots don't have experience flying in the Himalayas. Expect a lot of crashes if they actually try to operate the number of helicopters needed for air assault.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12195
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Pratyush »

I don't believe that Rohit is referring to a PLA heli born assault from Tibet against our ALG.

He might be refering to such assault from Burma against the assets.

An initial assault with subsequent airbridge operation can cause tremendous damage. It might just be enough to dis balance our force sufficiently to cause a loss.
k prasad
BRFite
Posts: 962
Joined: 21 Oct 2007 17:38
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow
Contact:

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by k prasad »

Pratyush wrote:I don't believe that Rohit is referring to a PLA heli born assault from Tibet against our ALG.

He might be refering to such assault from Burma against the assets.

An initial assault with subsequent airbridge operation can cause tremendous damage. It might just be enough to dis balance our force sufficiently to cause a loss.
A heliborne assault through Burma is also going to be difficult... apart from the fact that the valleys themselves are at least 2000 m elevation, there's not that many valleys that cut through, so any heli assault will still need to climb to 15k+ ft to cross the cols and passes. And after all that, it'll still be at least 300 km one-way from China through Burma to any of the ALGs.

If we are vigilant and have our intel and surveillance assets online and active, it'll be difficult for the chinese to catch us by surprise with such a large assault. Moreover, what's the point of a high-risk option like a heli-assault when they could more easily accomplish area denial with missiles etc?
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ramana »

The Garuds were deployed for forward airfield defences.
MeshaVishwas
BRFite
Posts: 869
Joined: 16 Feb 2019 17:20

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by MeshaVishwas »

Hostomel debacle of the attacking VDV Spetznaz against a defending AFU was a gory show.
Without mech forces linking up via GLOCs no way in hell Cheen can sustain such a move.
Even at Pathankot the humble DSC were just too fierce against fedayeen terrorists. The PLA will likely be disarmed and dismembered.
Last edited by ramana on 28 Dec 2022 04:49, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited by ramana.
Anoop
BRFite
Posts: 632
Joined: 16 May 2002 11:31

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Anoop »

On the subject of helicopter insertion, a thought struck me. If the inserted troops don't have firearms, but are armed with the type of weapons currently in use along the LAC, wonder if the IA will open fire. Or will they resist with the same type of non lethal weapons? Although I confess I don't see much advantage in the number of troops that can be inserted via helos, given the payload limitations at that altitude.
k prasad
BRFite
Posts: 962
Joined: 21 Oct 2007 17:38
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow
Contact:

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by k prasad »

If we're at the point where PLA troops are attacking an airfield with a heli-assault, we're well past the point of spiked clubs.
SriKumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2243
Joined: 27 Feb 2006 07:22
Location: sarvatra

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SriKumar »

I thought the ban on weapons was modifed/watered down along the LAC itself, post Galwan. Several articles to that effect.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... Tom1L.html

The spiked clubs and karate/kung fu limitations exist only along the LAC as I recall. Breaching the LAC is something way beyond that.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19226
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by NRao »

To add a very quick note to k prasad's posts, the Chinese are world leaders in drone and AI technologies. Recall that when Russia invaded Ukraine the US sent people to China to get assurances that China will not support Russia with drones (supposedly that opened the doors to Iran). Chinese drones are extremely advanced. Couple that with AI and that becomes a very toxic mixture.

Drones currently in use in Ukraine suites that conflict. However, we know China has far more sophisticated drones. I have posted a week-old article in the Chinese mil thread on a drone mothership that the PLAN launched. And, even that is just the beginning.

Prior to any helo ops, or any Chinese conventional mil ops (that we use to discuss), the LAC will be visited by a swarm of drones designed to overwhelm anything and everything.

Chinese are absolute leaders in drones (followed by Israel and then the US), and AI (followed by the US and then Israel).
konaseema
BRFite
Posts: 115
Joined: 16 Nov 2020 09:54

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by konaseema »

Based on the lessons learned by PLA during the past few years, if they want to carryout any sort of offensive against India, it would be anything but Infantry. They should have known that they don't stand a chance against the Indian Army in those heights. So I would expect everything else other than Infantry in the initial days to soften the targets. Arty, Armor & UCAV can be expected apart from PLAAF assets used in the next level of escalation before it ascends into the domain of their Rocket force. You can always expect 5th generation warfare in the mix. I also expect the LoC to be lit up as part of the psychological warfare. All their efforts thus far is to grab territory without firing a bullet and to find India's soft underbelly. Lt. Gen Shankar has recently spoken (In a video with Mr. Sanjay Dixit - The Jaipur Dialogues) about guerrilla warfare in Tibet by Indian Armed forces to defeat PLA. I hope we have enough intelligence to identify and attack China's weak links along the LAC.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32282
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by chetak »

Anoop wrote:On the subject of helicopter insertion, a thought struck me. If the inserted troops don't have firearms, but are armed with the type of weapons currently in use along the LAC, wonder if the IA will open fire. Or will they resist with the same type of non lethal weapons? Although I confess I don't see much advantage in the number of troops that can be inserted via helos, given the payload limitations at that altitude.
Anoop ji,

That would be an unwarranted escalation which would certainly trigger unpredictable responses and force the rapid induction of weapons systems capable of destabilizing the entire border by committing to a higher risk factor, thus making any stray skirmish/minor engagement that much more likely to spiral out of control

even the Indo pak borders have been majorly free of helo operations up to an agreed upon distance from the near the IB or LAC basically to limit the possibility of local commanders rising up unchecked through the escalatory ladder.
Post Reply