India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
looks like the balloon is about to go up!!
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
It could all be defensive moves, incase China makes a move on Taiwan, they would not want India to walk-in. They will never get a better chance to take on taiwan, than with Biden in WH.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
With critical shortages of equipment & resources and faced with a two-front war prospect I wonder why are the morons in our establishment still sticking to the 'no first use' doctrine? Both the Chinkis and the pukes have made it clear that the moment we capture an unacceptable amount of their territory, they'll nuke us. What about us? When the pukes and the Chinks have come in 10-20 kms into our territory, what do we do? Go crying to the UN or the US? Will they help us? Even if so, will the pukes and chinks listen to them and generously handover their gains? I think this is the right time to 'eschew' the no first use doctrine and mention what is that exact amount of loss of territory beyond which we will respond with a tactical nuke. If the dharmic morons in our establishment think they can wiggle out of a conflict with the Chinese through international diplomacy and 'pappi-jhappi'...then they've clearly got their chinks and pukes mixed.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Ok, you declare NFU is junked. Then what? Will Pakis and Cheenis change their attitude overnight and stop CBT or retreat back? Will equipment shortages disappear? Your week got off to a bad start man, please think through and post some meaningful analysis instead of knee-jerk rants.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
India has been rethinking about NFU for some time.
I think that the comments from Shri Rajnath Singh a few years ago were a signal to that effect.
Secondly, I don't understand this dhoti shivering from some of the members on the forum.
If the PRC is thinking about being able to achieve what ever they want to accomplish. The best choice for them is psy ops using assets within India such as The Hindu and Bhai- Behen ki party. Without going to war with India.
Because, any military offensive against India will just solidify the quad into a military alliance.
Given what the 4 nations can bring to the table. I doubt that Xi and PRC by extension are foolish to that extent.
But, we have the example of TSP during Kargil as well.
Which is a long winded way of saying that I don't care one way or the other about what PRC is going to do. We will emerge stronger on the other side.
I think that the comments from Shri Rajnath Singh a few years ago were a signal to that effect.
Secondly, I don't understand this dhoti shivering from some of the members on the forum.
If the PRC is thinking about being able to achieve what ever they want to accomplish. The best choice for them is psy ops using assets within India such as The Hindu and Bhai- Behen ki party. Without going to war with India.
Because, any military offensive against India will just solidify the quad into a military alliance.
Given what the 4 nations can bring to the table. I doubt that Xi and PRC by extension are foolish to that extent.
But, we have the example of TSP during Kargil as well.
Which is a long winded way of saying that I don't care one way or the other about what PRC is going to do. We will emerge stronger on the other side.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
If India gets into war with China, we shall get help (a balanced & calibrated help)…but chances are very high that no one else would join us. Alliances for real war have a cost associated, are linked to race supremacy, current gang members and future domination.Pratyush wrote:India has been rethinking about NFU for some time.
I think that the comments from Shri Rajnath Singh a few years ago were a signal to that effect.
Secondly, I don't understand this dhoti shivering from some of the members on the forum.
If the PRC is thinking about being able to achieve what ever they want to accomplish. The best choice for them is psy ops using assets within India such as The Hindu and Bhai- Behen ki party. Without going to war with India.
Because, any military offensive against India will just solidify the quad into a military alliance.
Given what the 4 nations can bring to the table. I doubt that Xi and PRC by extension are foolish to that extent.
But, we have the example of TSP during Kargil as well.
Which is a long winded way of saying that I don't care one way or the other about what PRC is going to do. We will emerge stronger on the other side.
Isn't it a better outcome for the west; that both India and China destroy each other while they sit on sidelines and assure mutual destruction of their future competitors. Their interest will be best served by the outcome where neither wins but both spend considerable national resources on it, incur heavy costs and gets weakened.
Make no mistakes, quad and any such alliances are for the security of west not for India. We can only benefit from such alliances in terms of tech and business. For India: A wise ruler never seeks war but always be prepared for it...makes better sense.
If we want peace, we need to build national strength on a mission mode to be able to squarely defeat China and bring it to its knees. NFU serve the purpose of removing tactical nukes from the equation and also puts a psychological barrier on the enemy that if they push too far, the nukes might come into play.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
What is a preferable outcome for the west is ultimately meaningless to me as long as PRC is intent on being the foolish kingdom. ( Play on middle kingdom)
India has to preserve it's own interests.
It's amusing for me to watch the PRC tell India not to allie with the west. But it keeps pushing us relentlessly and ruthlessly to become allied with the west.
It's almost like they are suffering from a mental disorder.
India has to preserve it's own interests.
It's amusing for me to watch the PRC tell India not to allie with the west. But it keeps pushing us relentlessly and ruthlessly to become allied with the west.
It's almost like they are suffering from a mental disorder.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
I think India has already communicated to China that any aggression in Arunachal or Ladakh will be countered elsewhere. China knows it has a weakness on its SLOC and India with the other QUAD nations will make Chinese flagged ships as well as ships with China as their destination fair game if the balloon goes up. Despite what China says it does not have the capability to take india territory without substantial costs to its military as well as economy.
Any misadventure will be so costly to the Chinese people that it will shake the foundations of the rule of the Red dynasts in China. Despite the iron grip of the state and the party under Emperor Eleven we need to remember that the politburo is a net of finely balanced relations with each constituent jostling with the other for a share of the loot - its a house of cards. Any heavy costs imposed on the society can easily destroy the artificially imposed harmony and cause a collapse of the top order.
Emperor Eleven will be wise not to attack India since this can lead to his own doom.
Any misadventure will be so costly to the Chinese people that it will shake the foundations of the rule of the Red dynasts in China. Despite the iron grip of the state and the party under Emperor Eleven we need to remember that the politburo is a net of finely balanced relations with each constituent jostling with the other for a share of the loot - its a house of cards. Any heavy costs imposed on the society can easily destroy the artificially imposed harmony and cause a collapse of the top order.
Emperor Eleven will be wise not to attack India since this can lead to his own doom.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Why do we feel compelled to think that India will stick to its self imposed NFU no matter what? Ambiguity in this matter will cause the enemy to consider multiple response scenarios each with a higher degree of uncertainty. As long as our leadership is clear what the red lines are and can be decisive, maintaining an artful vagueness about N use is perfectly fine.
In any 2.5 front scenario, India can take Pak out of existence, can at the very least stalemate China in an unwinnable war and cause them heavy losses, and a tsunami of Desh Bhakts will unleash and take care of the 0.5 at the slightest signal from the leader. This is a REALISTIC assessment.
The more prepared we are, the less we will suffer in achieving the above and the sooner we will bounce back from the economic impact.
Phoren help will come from many quarters, not just the Quad, in the form of intelligence, critical supplies, creating pressure points in the Indo-China sea and elsewhere etc. India does not need military help for 2.5 and doesn't count on it from anyone.
Post any such major conflict, I'll bet Bharat and its people will erase any superficial differences, stay resolutely united, toil hard, and bounce back in no time. Whereas our enemies with corrupt, authoritarian regimes that are barely able to hold their brainwashed people together today will split apart along their fault-lines and will not survive as the countries they are today.
In any 2.5 front scenario, India can take Pak out of existence, can at the very least stalemate China in an unwinnable war and cause them heavy losses, and a tsunami of Desh Bhakts will unleash and take care of the 0.5 at the slightest signal from the leader. This is a REALISTIC assessment.
The more prepared we are, the less we will suffer in achieving the above and the sooner we will bounce back from the economic impact.
Phoren help will come from many quarters, not just the Quad, in the form of intelligence, critical supplies, creating pressure points in the Indo-China sea and elsewhere etc. India does not need military help for 2.5 and doesn't count on it from anyone.
Post any such major conflict, I'll bet Bharat and its people will erase any superficial differences, stay resolutely united, toil hard, and bounce back in no time. Whereas our enemies with corrupt, authoritarian regimes that are barely able to hold their brainwashed people together today will split apart along their fault-lines and will not survive as the countries they are today.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Cyrano cannot agree more.
Sunlight is a great disinfectant. India has one princeling - China is run by Princelings. Chinese media may be very strictly controlled but there is enough content and data on what are the business interests of each of these guys - enough to get people rattled. A war with India is a unwindable war for CCP. India will bounce back but the same cannot be guaranteed for the Party.
Sunlight is a great disinfectant. India has one princeling - China is run by Princelings. Chinese media may be very strictly controlled but there is enough content and data on what are the business interests of each of these guys - enough to get people rattled. A war with India is a unwindable war for CCP. India will bounce back but the same cannot be guaranteed for the Party.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
A border skirmish blowing into a full-scale war where SLOC's are also attacked will work in PRC's favor - as PLA will be able to bring in its disproportionate MIC to bear upon India.
In a local border war - PLA will not be able to gain anything much - and this in itself will be a victory for India and a resounding defeat for PRC.
So we have to ensure that PLA does not gain any local superiority in a border clash and stalemate is a preferred outcome.
Similarly PRC will be trying to force India to expand the theatre of war by trying to beat India in a border clash.
Hence both sides doing their best on the border where frankly there is no much gain in terms of land or resources even if either side gets dominant.
In a local border war - PLA will not be able to gain anything much - and this in itself will be a victory for India and a resounding defeat for PRC.
So we have to ensure that PLA does not gain any local superiority in a border clash and stalemate is a preferred outcome.
Similarly PRC will be trying to force India to expand the theatre of war by trying to beat India in a border clash.
Hence both sides doing their best on the border where frankly there is no much gain in terms of land or resources even if either side gets dominant.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
PRC cannot sustain a full scale war along with SLOC disruption - that is a fact. MIC also depends on SLOC in the long term. And if you are gaming that PRC will use WMD's to attack India's population centres then anything is possible which includes tit for tat attacks across population centres across the east coast. There are enough people waiting for just this kind of mis-step by the Chinese and PRC will be sitting in a time machines and going back to the days after the Boxer Wars.
Sea lanes are a vital weakness for the Chinese to which they don't have a solution for now. Even a substantial increase in marine insurance costs can suddenly render Chinese trade unviable. In fact the SLOC threat is the long term threat that Indian will continue to hold to dissuade any misadventure even at a local level. Let me keep it at that.
Sea lanes are a vital weakness for the Chinese to which they don't have a solution for now. Even a substantial increase in marine insurance costs can suddenly render Chinese trade unviable. In fact the SLOC threat is the long term threat that Indian will continue to hold to dissuade any misadventure even at a local level. Let me keep it at that.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Armed forces SIGINT were able to work out where patrols were going and respond faster than PLA... To the point that PLA troops would ask IA/ITBP how they knew where to turn up, surprised at speed IA/ITBP would respondAarvee wrote:https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/c ... 2021-10-27
China has restricted the use of its navigation system, known as BeiDou at LAC as per reports!
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
The real objective that PRC care about is Taiwan (for now)... As IA is adding firepower in the rear, PLA need to move more equipment closer to the border due to long logistics chains and improve infra. So PLA objective is to get IA to withdraw rear firepower.Guddu wrote:It could all be defensive moves, incase China makes a move on Taiwan, they would not want India to walk-in. They will never get a better chance to take on taiwan, than with Biden in WH.
Also at the top CPC is directing armed forces to improve performance after poor show against IA last year (particularly in winter). The PLA are trying to improve doctrine and in-theatre training...
At the diplomatic level they are telling GOI top diplomats that we want return to normalcy... but on ground PLA is moving more stuff in theatre.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
I'm curious to know and educate myself about this fabled Chinese MIC. If you/someone else had done a thorough analysis please do share.Larry Walker wrote:A border skirmish blowing into a full-scale war where SLOC's are also attacked will work in PRC's favor - as PLA will be able to bring in its disproportionate MIC to bear upon India.
I've obviously seen enough reports of copies of Russian tanks, planes etc and copies of.latest US aircraft and ships & ac carriers, and numbers saying they have 100s of this or that. But that's not MIC.
Just saying they produce tanks or planes en masse like they produce copies of europan cars or going by brochuritis is not enough to asses their MIC one way or the other.
Let's not forget that Indian forces have long had the luxury of choosing best in class h/w after intense trials plus put India specific tweaks on them and have been flogging them hard. How does the Chinese maal compare qualitatively to our orbat?
What will be the possible losses (wear n tear and losses that India willl impose on them) in their orbat on land and air assuming 2 week all out war across ladakh & NE, and how quickly can they replenish lost h/w and trained soldiers and pilots to retain effectiveness in battle? Same for a 4 week war?
If this continues, by when will India exhaust it's h/w and men, and assuming they outlast us, what % of fighting worthy forces will they have left?
And finally, to regain pre-conflict levels, how long will each take?
India has set a scorching pace of mil exercises for decades now, given China has put itself into an evil axis, they surely can't have same level of battle hardened soldiers, sailors, pilots, crew. How likely is it for them to succeed in a balakot type penetration strike on us, say on Leh or Simla or Ambala?
If this was discussed before, please point me to it
Thanks.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
You mean the comm between BeiDou positioning devices and the satellites was intercepted and geoloc'd to map where they're being used and tracked? Wow!!shyamd wrote:Armed forces SIGINT were able to work out where patrols were going and respond faster than PLA... To the point that PLA troops would ask IA/ITBP how they knew where to turn up, surprised at speed IA/ITBP would respondAarvee wrote:https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/c ... 2021-10-27
China has restricted the use of its navigation system, known as BeiDou at LAC as per reports!
What stops the Chinese from doing the same to us on GPS/Glonass/INSS?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Yes Cyrano: that's what the reports seem to indicate. They're minimizing the use of their BeiDou devices to avoid interception. For all the Chinese-hacker bravado, our Sigint boys are no slouches!
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Key Indian post at 17K ft that China wants to occupy.
About four weeks ago when Indian and Chinese military patrol parties stood face to face against each other for hours along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Arunachal Pradesh, the bone of contention was control of a 17,000 feet high peak that provides commandeering view on both sides of the border.
Strategic worth
-Situated along the LAC in Arunachal Pradesh, the peak has immense strategic significance and
-Provides commanding view on both sides of the border
-India controls access routes to the top on its side of the border
-Sources confirmed to The Tribune that the peak has been the target of the People’s Liberation Army of China.
During the recent tension when the PLA made an attempt at an area called Yangtse, 35 km northeast of Tawang, its patrol parties came close to one of the access routes of the Indian Army to the top of the peak. The attempt was thwarted and the area is now under snow and will remain so till March.
The location is of such strategic importance that the Indian Army and the PLA each have estimated 3,000-3,500 men on either side of Yangtse area. Unmanned aerial vehicles keep an eye and long-range sensors provide real-time images. Both sides have a network of roads and tracks along the LAC to counter patrol parties.
The peak provides a commanding view of Tibet across the LAC. India is in firm control to the top and its access routes from own side. The Yangtse area is part of the wider area, which the military terms as ‘Mago-Chuna’. The Nuranang river meanders into India from Tibet close to the mountain spur where the peak is situated.
Patrol parties come face to face several times in a year as both sides undertake patrolling activities up to their line of perception of the LAC (alignment of the LAC is disputed on ground). Whenever the patrols of both sides physically meet, the situation is managed according to established protocols and mechanisms agreed upon by both sides. One part of the protocol is unfurling a banner at each other, asking the rival side to return. “Physical engagement at any spot can last for a few hours prior to disengaging,” a source said.
About four weeks ago when Indian and Chinese military patrol parties stood face to face against each other for hours along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Arunachal Pradesh, the bone of contention was control of a 17,000 feet high peak that provides commandeering view on both sides of the border.
Strategic worth
-Situated along the LAC in Arunachal Pradesh, the peak has immense strategic significance and
-Provides commanding view on both sides of the border
-India controls access routes to the top on its side of the border
-Sources confirmed to The Tribune that the peak has been the target of the People’s Liberation Army of China.
During the recent tension when the PLA made an attempt at an area called Yangtse, 35 km northeast of Tawang, its patrol parties came close to one of the access routes of the Indian Army to the top of the peak. The attempt was thwarted and the area is now under snow and will remain so till March.
The location is of such strategic importance that the Indian Army and the PLA each have estimated 3,000-3,500 men on either side of Yangtse area. Unmanned aerial vehicles keep an eye and long-range sensors provide real-time images. Both sides have a network of roads and tracks along the LAC to counter patrol parties.
The peak provides a commanding view of Tibet across the LAC. India is in firm control to the top and its access routes from own side. The Yangtse area is part of the wider area, which the military terms as ‘Mago-Chuna’. The Nuranang river meanders into India from Tibet close to the mountain spur where the peak is situated.
Patrol parties come face to face several times in a year as both sides undertake patrolling activities up to their line of perception of the LAC (alignment of the LAC is disputed on ground). Whenever the patrols of both sides physically meet, the situation is managed according to established protocols and mechanisms agreed upon by both sides. One part of the protocol is unfurling a banner at each other, asking the rival side to return. “Physical engagement at any spot can last for a few hours prior to disengaging,” a source said.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
They have been jamming these signals for some time on our side. Armed forces have been investing in some alternative solutions in the area to counter the jamming.Cyrano wrote: You mean the comm between BeiDou positioning devices and the satellites was intercepted and geoloc'd to map where they're being used and tracked? Wow!!
What stops the Chinese from doing the same to us on GPS/Glonass/INSS?
We are watching them and they are watching us. Both sides are learning how the other operates up close.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Expectation is that TSPA will up the ante in the valley - forces on high alert. After civilian killings to embarrass the govt. The orders to terror groups are now to target security forces. This is in response to the beating TSPA is taking internally in NWFP and Karachi which it blames GOI.
Indian Army sets up voluntary civil defence force along LoC in Jammu
US and Indian soldiers met for a mock UN mission, counter-drone and high altitude training
Indian Army sets up voluntary civil defence force along LoC in Jammu
US and Indian soldiers met for a mock UN mission, counter-drone and high altitude training
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 469885.cms
Army conducts high-altitude para-drop exercises in Ladakh
the 50th Parachute Brigade conducted high altitude insertion exercise in eastern Ladakh
extracts
Army conducts high-altitude para-drop exercises in Ladakh
the 50th Parachute Brigade conducted high altitude insertion exercise in eastern Ladakh
extracts
On November 1, airborne troops were inserted to a drop zone at an altitude of more than 14,000 feet.
Pre-acclimatised troops along with specialist vehicles and missile detachments were transported to the region through C-130 and AN 32 aircrafts as they were sent from five different mounting bases to further review the inter-theatre move, precision stand-off drops, rapid grouping and capture of designated objects with speed and surprise.
The drop was particularly challenging due to the low temperatures of up to minus 20 degrees Celsius and rarefied atmosphere in the super high altitude terrain, they mentioned
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Scary stuff. That's something few other armies in the world can boast of... If at all there are any.
French Chasseurs Alpins come to mind, but even they are not para jumpers integrating with arty etc. as far as I know.
French Chasseurs Alpins come to mind, but even they are not para jumpers integrating with arty etc. as far as I know.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 90405.html
some more tidbits
In high-intensity airborne drills, army tests response capabilities in Ladakh as LAC row lingers
some more tidbits
In high-intensity airborne drills, army tests response capabilities in Ladakh as LAC row lingers
Other elements of the exercise include integrated battle drills by airborne forces, mechanised columns and attack helicopters, the second official said.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Prep in Tawang to welcome any misguided visitors
Always wanted to ask this question: Indian soldiers manning tanks, artillery etc seem to follow somewhat ceremoniously choreographed routines. Is there a reason for this or is it just a remnant from British era?
Always wanted to ask this question: Indian soldiers manning tanks, artillery etc seem to follow somewhat ceremoniously choreographed routines. Is there a reason for this or is it just a remnant from British era?
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Why it's almost as if they are not the Sun-Tzu-level strategic geniuses that some dhoti-shivering Indians assume they are. I am shocked. Shocked, I tell you!!!Pratyush wrote:It's amusing for me to watch the PRC tell India not to... But it keeps pushing us relentlessly and ruthlessly to...
It's almost like they are suffering from a mental disorder.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Builds muscle-memory, and muscle-memory ensures that everyone does his job during the stress of the battle. When the guns are booming and the adrenaline is flowing, your fine-motor skills, peripheral vision and auditory cognition begin to fall apart. In many mixed-class Indian units, there is the additional complexity that crew may have different native-languages, so everyone must know how to do their jobs without unnecessary back-and-forth conversation.Cyrano wrote:Always wanted to ask this question: Indian soldiers manning tanks, artillery etc seem to follow somewhat ceremoniously choreographed routines. Is there a reason for this or is it just a remnant from British era?
After the 1857 Sepoy Mutiny, all the native field-artillery and horse-artillery regiments were dissolved by the British; only a few mountain batteries were left for Punjab Frontier Force and Kashmir duties. Indian field-artillery was re-raised only when World War 2 was looming; the Brits' focus at that time was winning the war -- not creating new ceremonies. Methinks most of these drills were created by Indian NCOs and JCOs later.
Last edited by ParGha on 02 Nov 2021 07:12, edited 1 time in total.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
By the time of the Three Kingdoms period, Sun Tzu was relegated to the background.Roop wrote:Why it's almost as if they are not the Sun-Tzu-level strategic geniuses that some dhoti-shivering Indians assume they are. I am shocked. Shocked, I tell you!!!Pratyush wrote:It's amusing for me to watch the PRC tell India not to... But it keeps pushing us relentlessly and ruthlessly to...
It's almost like they are suffering from a mental disorder.
That was the age of Zhuge Liang ("Crouching Dragon") the strategic advisor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuge_Liang
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
By the same argument, sticking to the drills drilled into the soldier may render them as automates and hamper adaptation leading to disorientation/team falling apart if in the heat of battle, practiced routines cannot be performed as per muscle memory no?Builds muscle-memory, and muscle-memory ensures that everyone does his job during the stress of the battle. When the guns are booming and the adrenaline is flowing, your fine-motor skills, peripheral vision and auditory cognition begin to fall apart. In many mixed-class Indian units, there is the additional complexity that crew may have different native-languages, so everyone must know how to do their jobs without unnecessary back-and-forth conversation.
Do all armies operate this way?
I find the usage of the term "mixed-class units" strange in this day and age...
We should take this to IA thread
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
The PLA is a paper tiger, which will not fight unless required to save face. Sitting in frigid weather for 1.5 years is obviously not the sign of a confident army. As was mentioned last year, it was a panic reaction in the belief that India was getting ready to strike GB or POK. 1.5 years is a lot of wanking by the little emperors of the PLA.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
China has a big problem. China cannot afford a stalemate with India.
They can escalate but it may mean china’s Unravelling starting with Tibet.
They can escalate but it may mean china’s Unravelling starting with Tibet.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Looks like a split in the Chinese govt.
At the diplomatic level they are telling GOI top diplomats that we want return to normalcy... but on ground PLA is moving more stuff in theatre
The diplomats are Guangdong faction while PLA is ChungKing faction.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
vow strong words for somebody expressing his/her POVCyrano wrote:Ok, you declare NFU is junked. Then what? Will Pakis and Cheenis change their attitude overnight and stop CBT or retreat back? Will equipment shortages disappear? Your week got off to a bad start man, please think through and post some meaningful analysis instead of knee-jerk rants.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Let's be clear.
Since 2003 after Parakram it's just one large front with Pak sector and Chinese sector. I wrote this even then.
Secondly Gilgit Baltistan belongs to State of Jammu Kashmir by conquest by Zorawar Singh. And Maharaja Hari Singh acceded to India.
So it's ours by right despite Nehrujis delusions.
We will get it back.
Since 2003 after Parakram it's just one large front with Pak sector and Chinese sector. I wrote this even then.
Secondly Gilgit Baltistan belongs to State of Jammu Kashmir by conquest by Zorawar Singh. And Maharaja Hari Singh acceded to India.
So it's ours by right despite Nehrujis delusions.
We will get it back.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Arre sir jee, various people keep posting rona dhona stuff or hyper-aggressive : both are rants - There is a huge gap between rant and PoV. There is plethora of social media for ranting. Why do the same thing here?ChanakyaM wrote:vow strong words for somebody expressing his/her POVCyrano wrote:Ok, you declare NFU is junked. Then what? Will Pakis and Cheenis change their attitude overnight and stop CBT or retreat back? Will equipment shortages disappear? Your week got off to a bad start man, please think through and post some meaningful analysis instead of knee-jerk rants.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Team work comes from soldiers having experience in working together and knowing that they are there for each other. In a IA tank regiment, a tank crew working together for 7 years has an advantage over conscripts manning their tank for 7 months. The squad or team members learn to obey orders without question, knowing that their team members will risk their lives to save them. (if comrade Li is wounded and is not sure if comrade Xi is going to carry him off the battlefield, he'll try not to get wounded in the first place). Apart from the earlier comments about muscle memory (important, not just in combat, but at high altitude, when the brain is slow to react) some of the actions are visual cues for neighboring units.Cyrano wrote:By the same argument, sticking to the drills drilled into the soldier may render them as automates and hamper adaptation leading to disorientation/team falling apart if in the heat of battle, practiced routines cannot be performed as per muscle memory no?Builds muscle-memory, and muscle-memory ensures that everyone does his job during the stress of the battle. When the guns are booming and the adrenaline is flowing, your fine-motor skills, peripheral vision and auditory cognition begin to fall apart. In many mixed-class Indian units, there is the additional complexity that crew may have different native-languages, so everyone must know how to do their jobs without unnecessary back-and-forth conversation.
I find the usage of the term "mixed-class units" strange in this day and age...
We should take this to IA thread
I suspect that in the video in question, it was just a `parade ground' routine, put on for the press, which all armies do. The situation you mention can arise if a unit has never been in combat and relies only on parade ground routines, which may not be practical or be carried out well enough in a combat situation. The men of every IA infantry battalion has been in combat - either in Counter insurgency, or on a hot LOC. If you make a mistake in weapon handling, or patrolling, you may fail to spot the IED, or sniper or ambush, or fail to react fast enough. Our real combat routines (the ones the media does not see) are derived from experience.
Think of a mixed class unit as French and German soldiers together in the same battalion. NATO took about 3 decades to create 1 such battalion.
Last edited by Deans on 02 Nov 2021 12:26, edited 1 time in total.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
The recent wave of Bankrupt companies in China is interesting. The general feeling (I have spoken to a couple of analysts covering China) isramana wrote:Looks like a split in the Chinese govt.
At the diplomatic level they are telling GOI top diplomats that we want return to normalcy... but on ground PLA is moving more stuff in theatre
The diplomats are Guangdong faction while PLA is ChungKing faction.
that some of the promoters were `white glove' men for leading CCP officials ( sending their black money abroad and making a few billion for
themselves). Not just Evergrande, but the worlds largest Aluminum company - Zhongwang, just declared bankruptcy. The promoter Liu Zhongtian
is suspected of being the white glove man for the Jiang Zemin faction of the CCP.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Parade ground stuff.Deans wrote:Cyrano wrote:
I find the usage of the term "mixed-class units" strange in this day and age...
We should take this to IA thread
Think of a mixed class unit as French and German soldiers together in the same battalion. NATO took about 3 decades to create 1 such battalion.
On the mixed class thing it denotes the composition of a unit. For ex 16th CAV is South Indian troops only. Paras and Guards are mixed class. To maintain cohesion efforts are always made to ensure that there is always cultural affinity as much as possible.
Gen Vaidya’s exerperiment of having an inf bn with different ethnic composition was a dismal failure AKAIK and died a natural death.
Even in the Bihar you will see different regions represented. In the Gurkhas Limbu’s and Rai’s with end up in diff Gurkha Regis to Thapas and Gurungs.
It works.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Thank you gents for the explanation !
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Army, IAF launch major exercise in eastern Ladakh
NEW DELHI: The Army and IAF on Monday kicked off a major “airborne insertion and combat” exercise along the frontier with China in eastern Ladakh, which will see paratroopers practice capturing territory “behind enemy lines” and then “link up” with their advancing tanks while attack helicopters destroy hostile mechanized forces.
The three-day exercise, with hundreds of pre-acclimatized troops and heavy weapon systems at an altitude of over 14,000-feet and minus 20 degree Celsius temperatures, is meant to convey yet another “clear message” to China after the Agni-V missile test last week to “desist from any misadventures along the northern borders”, said sources.
The combat manoeuvres come amid the continuing deadlock in the 18-month-long military confrontation in eastern Ladakh, with China refusing to even complete the stalled troop disengagement at Patrolling Point-15 in the Hot Springs-Gogra-Kongka La area in the 13th round of corps commander-level talks on October 10.
With any de-escalation in the much more intractable face-offs at Charding Ninglung Nallah (CNN) track junction at Demchok and the strategically-located Depsang Plains also not on the horizon, India and China are set to keep their 50,000 troops each along with tanks, howitzers and surface-to-air missile systems forward deployed for the second consecutive winter in the harsh high-altitude area.
“If they (People’s Liberation Army) are there to stay, we are there to stay too,” Army chief General M M Naravane had recently said. The PLA has also been flexing its muscles, with stepped-up patrolling along the 3,488-km LAC stretching from eastern Ladakh to Arunachal Pradesh as well as conducting integrated joint operations exercises in the Tibetan Autonomous Region.
The Indian exercise began on Monday with over 200 Para-Special Forces soldiers from the Agra-based Shatrujeet Brigade, along with specialist vehicles, missile detachments and other heavy loads, being inserted into the “drop zone” in eastern Ladakh by C-130J Super Hercules and AN-32 aircraft from five different “mounting bases” in the country.
“The aim was to validate rapid response capabilities, inter-theatre move, precision stand-off drops, rapid grouping and capture of designated objectives with speed and surprise. The air-drop was particularly challenging due to the sub-zero temperatures and rarefied atmosphere in the super high-altitude terrain,” said a source.
Over the next two days, the paratroopers will “hold” the captured territory in the simulated exercise, while enemy tanks are neutralized by attack helicopters like the newly-inducted Apaches. “Friendly” main-battle tanks and infantry combat vehicles, in turn, will move forward to link up with the paratroopers holding ground to complete the combat manoeuvres.
“The exercise involves conduct of oxygenated combat free-fall jumps and integrated battle drills by airborne forces, mechanised columns and attack helicopters with seamless integration,” said the source.
India has forward deployed a wide array of weapon systems — ranging from the Bofors, M-777 and K-9 Vajra artillery guns to T-90S and T-72 main-battle tanks, Smerch and Pinaka multiple-launch rocket systems, and BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles — along the LAC since the confrontation erupted in April-May last year.
Similarly, the IAF too has deployed Sukhoi-30MKI, Mirage-2000, MiG-29 and Jaguar fighters as well Apache attack and Chinook heavy-lift helicopters in Ladakh and elsewhere along the LAC.