India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby madhu » 16 Sep 2020 15:10

jamwal wrote:Vietnam had same pact with USSR before they had a war with China. USSR didn't even lift a single finger to help Vietnamese. Now Russians don't honour their legally binding commercial agreements and US is infamous for dropping allies like hot potatoes. Why do you think that they'll come to our aid in case of conflict with China? Not to mention, they'll demand their own pound of flesh for anything they do.


China is not only a threat to India it is also a threat to US and rest of the world. imagine china taking place of US as super power and with all the money and market it will go after every one in the world. China wants to dominate the world. if world do not help India they then whole world will suffer.

i don't think US has dropped its allies. it even sided Pak knowing they are in bed with Taliban.

i doubt without allies we can take on china for a long time war. short time we can handle even we can win but long time is tough. we need to turn this war to two front war for China.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 16 Sep 2020 15:14

ks_sachin wrote:
The entire 3400Km is not contested. Also in the contested areas what are the potential areas that the IA could take a proactive Spangurr like action and dominate?


Ofcourse not. But the Chinese cannot ignore, if we suddenly mobilize in Sikkim or AP.. with a bit of rhetoric. The Chinis have broken the 93/96 accord anyways on mobilization.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Hari Nair » 16 Sep 2020 15:19

Drifting a bit OT -
Prof Nalapat has a point about alliances. But then, every alliance has its commitments. Are we ready for those?

For example - what happens if the US asks us as a QPQ to land "boots on the ground" in Afghanistan (as they recently had), to facilitate their withdrawal?

Meaningful alliances to have be built up over periods of time - check out NATO or the Five Eyes (FVEY). Those did not come up overnight. Even NATO is now under threat due to perceived feet dragging by Germany to meet its share of commitments.
Its difficult to hop onto a favourable alliance bus overnight, especially just at the point when a country is confronted by a crisis.
Last edited by Hari Nair on 16 Sep 2020 15:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ks_sachin » 16 Sep 2020 15:25

Hari Nair wrote:Drifting a bit OT -
Prof Nalapat has a point about alliances. But then, every alliance has its commitments. Are we ready for those?

For example - what happens if the US asks us as a QPQ to land "boots on the ground" in Afghanistan (as they recently had), to facilitate their withdrawal?

Meaningful alliances have be built up over periods of time - check out NATO or the Five Eyes (FVEY). Those did not come up overnight. Even NATO is now under threat due to perceived feet dragging by Germany to meet its share of commitments.
Its difficult to hop onto a favourable alliance bus overnight, especially just at the point when a country is confronted by a crisis.


Sir this foreign relations BR style!!!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Dilbu » 16 Sep 2020 15:26

This is the same in the case of TSP also. Everyone knows that they are a threat to global peace and stability and yet unkil and his western allies had no qualms about siding with them or ignoring their atrocities as long as it served their interest. China still has got much leverage in the western world and they are more important to the west than India, for now. That is the reality. Irrespective of the fact that China wants to conquer the world, they will never fight the war for India or overtly pitch in to defend us. They will be happy if India can fight a war with China on their behalf and to achieve that goal they will provide shiny toys etc.

India has a difficult decision to make regarding the Quad exactly because of this situation. We will have to alienate Russia and go with the quad on a hope and prayer that the alliance will work in our favour even after the immediate conflict with China is resolved. Otherwise we have to keep sitting on the fence and feed the RU MIC by rolling out fat and juicy purchase orders and still hope that the west will find the sense to engage with us more deeply inspite of S-400 purchases and lack of commitment beyond a point. Sitting on the fence and trying to go with both sides on a case by case basis will not benefit India in any way.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby SSridhar » 16 Sep 2020 15:27

Suraj wrote: . . .Their intents were malicious no doubt, but it depended on the other side not being bold. When that happens, they suddenly find not just a lot of their incursions becoming untenable, but their open exposed and static positions liabilities. This is a great move by IA. In the process the Chinese have two options:
a) Escalate several notches into a bloody shooting war to regain their lost positional advantages
b) Substantially increase the amount of intimidation hoping we'll back down.

The latter is mostly Sun Tzu playbook - try to win a war without firing a shot. Further, it plays into their stable-unstable paradox - they have the top down stability to project the tools of power, while concealing the instability associated with actually using them effectively. Far easier to just fly strategic bombers around in circles hoping SDREs turn tail and run.


This is China's tactic and Admiral Zheng He's voyages or 1962 or events in Indo-China Sea have all followed these tactics. The elements of Chinese coercion are like this:

  1. Claim a piece of territory citing vague historical references
  2. Coerce the other country by probing constantly, surreptitiously occupying, showing force but not actually fighting, using irregular force like militia or maritime militia, keep objecting to other side's activities and harassing them even within their own areas and generally very carefully ratcheting up tensions.
  3. Never sign an agreement, but give only oral promises that could be twisted later. That also helps China in irredentism under the garb of 'disputed or undefined territory'.
  4. Make the other country to take measures to avoid a war or a conflict in fear of China
  5. Extract concession
  6. If a war is to be fought, make it short, swift and massive at the most opportune time
  7. Start the cycle from Point 1.

Unfortunately for the Hans, the GoI & IA have introduced modifications in this cycle between 3 & 6 as follows: Be fearless of China, don't give any concession, if a skirmish happens give back much more than we get. If the Chinese bring in artillery, as Lt. Gen. Shankar says, we can return fire more ferociously.

Suddenly, the Hans have found that things not in the script are happening and they have no plan. They are exactly like a headless chicken at this point.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby rsingh » 16 Sep 2020 15:36

hnair wrote:This Sun Tzu for war is like our Kamsutra for jhanging - attractive for West due to its titillating verbiage from an exotic culture, but shrugged off by seasoned practitioners of both arts as impractical, pedantic and sometimes downright goofy.

Maybe the chinese should start some Sun Tzu themed hill resort like our Hardwar circuit for mannina-MAGA goras who want to learn Art of War and shoot some NORINCO crap. We can provide Malana Cream (for a premium) to help them figure it all out.

eg: "He who wins without fighting is awesome". Yes, for lottery tickets, not for war - you still need to shove heads of enemies into the sand.


100% agree Saar. I had this debate with Good old Singha Saar. It is all maya jaal.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Dilbu » 16 Sep 2020 15:43

China belts out Punjabi numbers for Indian soldiers at Ladakh. It is a ‘62 trick
While the Indian Army was not amused by Chinese military tactics, the military commanders rolled up in mirth after PLA troops on Finger 4 starting belting out Punjabi numbers to soften up the adversary into lowering their guard on the firecely-contested mountainous spur. If the north bank of Pangong Tso was jiving to Punjabi songs on PLA loudspeakers, a battery of loudspeakers were deployed by the Red Army at their Moldo Garrison in Chushul sector to remind the Indian troops of, what they claim, is the folly of their political masters

On the southern banks of Pangong Tso, the Chinese loudspeakers told Indian troops in chaste Hindi about the futility of being deployed at these heights in winter season on the whims and fancies of Indian politicians back in Delhi. The whole idea of PLA is to pull down the morale of Indian troops and create dissatisfaction among the soldiers that they do not always get hot steaming meals, logistics and a snowy winter ahead.

According to a former Indian Army chief, the PLA used the same loudspeaker tactics in 1962 skirmishes in the western and eastern sectors as well during the 1967 Nathu La skirmish. “But the Indian troops were foxed about the Punjabi songs on Finger 4. Maybe, the PLA thought that troops from Punjab were holding on to the higher heights of Finger 4 feature,” said the former army chief
.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Dilbu » 16 Sep 2020 15:59

Amid tension at LAC, Army jawans get multilayered clothing, best in class tentages for braving chilly winters in Ladakh
Amid the ongoing tensions along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Ladakh, the Indian Army is geared up with all-weather accommodation and clothing for its jawans even if the temperature drops to -50 degrees in the winter ahead. The Army has stocked up on every commodity which is essential to keep its personnel safe and alert during the winters. The Army is providing the troops deployed in high altitude areas with multi-layered clothing. According to the Indian Army officials, these clothing will not only help the jawans to stay safe from the weather but also it will help them in hiding from the enemy. These also come equipped with several types of equipment which the jawans need to climb on mountains or walk comfortably in the high altitude areas.

In the first layer of clothing, there are inner trousers and a dark-coloured jacket, while in the second layer a green colour jacket and another set of trousers are being provided to them. Similarly, on the third layer, which is also the outer layer, a jawan has to wear a white colour jacket and trouser along with specialised shoes. There are also multi-layered gloves for hands and socks which will keep them warm even during intense cold conditions. "Every jawan who is deployed in the high altitude area gets 21 items. This includes special clothing, equipment, etc which are displayed," Lieutenant Colonel Monrak Sadh said. On the other hand, for accommodation, the Indian Army has sufficient stock of tentages ranging from big to small. The bigger ones can hold almost a dozen jawans while the smaller ones are for a single jawan.

These tents have heaters and can keep jawans warm and safe even in -50 degree temperatures. These tents are made up of multiple layers, have a waterproof cover on the outside while the inside layer is made up of quilt fabric which helps in keeping the temperature inside high. Also, they also come equipped with solar panels through which the basic needs of electricity of the jawans can be fulfilled. "This is the biggest depot of Ladakh where we have special tentages, clothing, heating appliances, etc which we provide to jawans. There are different tents small and big for the high altitude. These have been provided to all our jawans," Sadh said. Amid the tensions along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Ladakh, the Indian Army has stocked up the oil depots in Ladakh to supply fuel to the troops and protect them from the biting cold ahead of the winter season. Multiple rounds of talks have failed to yield any significant result in defusing the tensions and now the Indian side has prepared itself for long term deployment in the high mountainous region.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby V_Raman » 16 Sep 2020 16:00

Punjabi numbers - seriously :roll: :roll:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Dilbu » 16 Sep 2020 16:03

There is nothing new to report about the operation and they created an article just to reveal the name of the operation.
Op Snow Leopard: Inside story of how Army reclaimed heights in eastern Ladakh | Exclusive
The Indian Army bolstered its dominance over a number of strategic heights overlooking key Chinese-held positions around Pangong lake area in eastern Ladakh last week even as brigade commanders and commanding officers of the two militaries held talks to cool tensions in the region.

The Indian Army waited for three months of planning before it executed ‘Operation Snow Leopard’ to control key heights along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in eastern Ladakh, sources have told India Today TV.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Ashokk » 16 Sep 2020 16:08

They seem to be stuck in the 1962 rut and just cannot understand that India has moved on :rotfl:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby chetak » 16 Sep 2020 16:16

Image

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 16 Sep 2020 16:20

^^ Further ... on the India Today report
With the Army occupying key heights, it now has the strength to restore status quo ante at the LAC if talks do not succeed.

The Army deployment is effective and dominating not only at Demchok in south but also Depsang and DBO backed by Indian Air Force.

Seems there was more mischief than was revealed publicly except the very cryptic "at more than 30 points along the whole of the LAC"

@DBO that could only mean moving on to the Karakoam pass ridge that would allow IA to dominate the other side of the pass.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 16 Sep 2020 16:29

The Chinis have not reverted back to the Corps commander meet. GoI doesn't look confident of Chinese going back. The border is unusually quiet.

We should keep an eye on the Chini movement across the LAC...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Ashokk » 16 Sep 2020 16:36

Three firing incidents between India-China in last 20 days in Eastern Ladakh
"The first incident happened when the Indian Army preempted the Chinese attempt to occupy heights near southern bank of Pangong Lake between August 29-31 while the second incident occurred near Mukhpari height on September 7," Army sources said. In the third incident, which occurred on September 8 near the northern bank of Pangong lake, troops of both sides fired more than 100 rounds as the Chinese side was behaving in a very aggressive manner, Army sources said.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby vijayk » 16 Sep 2020 16:41

https://www.news18.com/amp/news/tech/al ... 78405.html

Alibaba Servers in India Stealing Data of Indian Users, Probe Soon: Intelligence Sources
Top intelligence officials told News18 that Alibaba's servers are trapping Indian organisations by promoting freebies, and are heavily engaged in stealing data subsequently.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RaviB » 16 Sep 2020 16:41

Dilbu wrote:The writer is a retired Major-General of the Indian Army.
A battle on China’s hands

Another factor is that in 1962, the PLA could accept casualties, as the nation was still to push through the one-child norm, which commenced in 1979. Nor were there multiple media networks where casualty figures were demanded. The scenario is vastly different today. Each Chinese soldier, if a bachelor, has six adults, parents and grandparents, who have pampered him and would be devastated by his loss. If married, dependents only increase. Hence, China cannot accept body bags in the manner they did in the 1960s. Despite all technology and high-end weapons, common to both sides, ultimately their soldiers would need to assault Indian defences. Further, China last fought a war with Vietnam in 1979, where it was forced to withdraw in shame.

Expecting soft, inexperienced and family-dependent troops to assault a voluntary army, comprising of battle hardened, trained soldiers is asking for the moon. Releasing Kargil and Siachen videos, as part of counter-propaganda warfare, would make the Chinese realise what the current Indian army is made of. Chinese propaganda videos of exercise firing would pale in comparison to the accurate Indian firing during the Kargil war against the heights occupied by Pakistani troops.



Very important points. I had posted earlier how some Chinese military forums were having a discussion on the potential loss of soldiers' lives ending not one but two family lineages. One of the more outlandish, but quite popular suggestions was to have the sperm of the soldiers frozen and supporting artificial fertilisation in case of their death. This is a major weakness that is ripe to be exploited. Not only do they have no social ability to handle body bags but also having a sufficiently large number of prisoners would be an excellent advantage for us at the stage of war termination.

The major problem in the ongoing propaganda game is that global social media sites are banned in China and their own are difficult to penetrate. Obtaining a gateway into these sites and pushing forth Indian forces’ capability could impact morale of Chinese public and forces, which are currently being fed one-sided inputs. This avenue must be explored and exploited.


Regarding counter-propaganda, I actually sacrificed several accounts on Chinese social media (SM) before deciding to change strategy. We don't really need to do much. Sending a public appeal to HK guys to help bomb their social media would be useful, especially for completely degrading their SM and spreading FUD. HK people are a lot more experienced at Chinese SM wars and naturally their Chinese language ability comes in handy.

But all their news is coming from Indian media, which they then twist suitably as per their desires. Yet even they know the Indian media is more truthful than the People's Daily. I had also posted earlier that the Baba Banaras twitter account was being used as a source of latest insider information on Indian military actions on Chinese SM :lol: Hu Xijin twitter is also one they rely on heavily. Bombing his tweets with FUD replies in Chinese (Own warriors should use deepl instead of google translate for creating Chinese posts) will also spread the message.

I call this the "poisoned sugar" strategy: you don't go into the anthill, you mix poison with sugar, the ants will come to consume it. The term obviously fits Sugarland very well.

We don't just need armchair generals, but also keyboard warriors, I call upon younger readers to get on to this.

I propose a counterpart term to dhoti shivering : choti shivering

During the Qing dynasty, the Hans had to wear a pigtail (correct term queue or cue) to show their subservience. The Hindi word for pigtail being choti, I think choti shivering is an appropriate term for what some Chinese are already doing and what all of them should be doing. They have plenty to choti shiver about, and they should be afraid, very afraid.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Arima » 16 Sep 2020 17:16

Autumn Equinox falls on 21st September. from this point on sun will start to shine more in southern hemisphere and North will see temperature falling.
Tibet which is third pole will see temperature plunging from this point on. may be thats why Army is rushing supplies for the long haul.
We have siachin experience gained hard way, but maintaining 50K troops with logistics would be a record of sorts.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Dilbu » 16 Sep 2020 17:37

Arzan Tarapore in Washington Post
India and China are taking new risks along their border. It will be hard to restore peace.
Have India and China pulled back from the brink?

International relations theory offers two opposing ideas on whether this kind of heavy militarization increases or decreases the risk of war. In the “deterrence model,” peace comes through strength, so additional reinforcements should dissuade the enemy from aggression. In this view, India’s best option may be to fortify the LAC so that it begins to look more like the Line of Control in Kashmir.

Another view, the “spiral model of war,” argues that the other side is likely to misinterpret military preparations as a threat, unleashing a tit-for-tat cycle of escalation that leads to war. For India and China, this “security dilemma” is sharpened because the crisis has extinguished whatever trust each side may have previously had. India struggles to understand China’s objectives, and China has grown more suspicious of India’s intentions.

In either model, analysts point out that the increasingly toxic environment may lead to war by miscalculation. In this view — heavily influenced by a contested view of the outbreak of World War I — war is often a tragic accident that neither side wants.

But in the India-China case, at least, war would also be partly the result of both sides deliberately raising the risk of conflict. In recent years, China and India have each shown an appetite for generating risk to deter their adversaries. Indeed, it was India’s seizure of the Chushul peaks that escalated tensions, and using hitherto-secret ethnic Tibetan special forces and pro-Tibetan symbols added salt to China’s perceived wounds. :roll:

Whether or not the crisis leads to war, India faces a daunting long-term challenge.The conventional military balance favors China, although the outcomes of conflict will be heavily scenario-dependent. The Indian army may hope that any conflict is limited to close combat over mountain ridgelines and passes. That would play to India’s strengths — its infantry is trained and acclimatized to operate in high alpine terrain — and not engage China’s comparative strengths in missiles, cyber warfare and battlefield networks. That is precisely why in a potential war, China would have incentives to introduce those elements, striking Indian targets far beyond the LAC to blind and paralyze the Indian military.

For India, relations with China are unlikely to return to business as usual, even if tensions de-escalate. The government of Prime Minister Narendra Modi is likely to feel forced to accelerate its military investments. The long-term risk to India is that a costly expansion of personnel and infrastructure on the LAC itself could leave an already vintage Indian military even less able to modernize and project force.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Ashokk » 16 Sep 2020 17:41

Indian Army fully geared to fight full-fledged war in eastern Ladakh: Northern Command
The Army's Northern Command made these assertions after reacting to China's official media Global Times reports that India's operational logistics is not geared up adequately and it will not be able to fight through winters effectively.
“This can best be attributed to ignorance. Indian Army is fully prepared and more than capable of fighting a full-fledged war even in winters in eastern Ladakh,” a Northern Command spokesperson said here.

The spokesperson said, “China's concept has always been to win the wars without fighting, hence if they create conditions for war, they will come across better trained, better prepared, fully rested and psychologically hardened Indian troops.
“These worries have been percolating in the minds of Chinese troops and are visible in Chinese media,” he said. :twisted:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 16 Sep 2020 18:05

MoH babus have replied that there has no infiltration on the Indo China border in the last 6 months. Even in this situation, the lot want to play with the words.

It could either mean they are referring to border areas other than LAC. or infiltration as in what is happening on LoC! The PLA action is transgression, while what Paks do is infiltration..!

Proper babu talk to cover their back side. Total yes prime minister type statement..

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby AdityaM » 16 Sep 2020 18:39

often read here that some indian king had managed to extend his influence to Tibet or over china. can anyone point me to that

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby darshan » 16 Sep 2020 18:48

chinese aren't going to be scared till India's own MIC starts ramping up and gets established. I don't think that CCP or cutler or his replacements are worried. Only way to resolve hans problem is to get hans behind great wall of china and that's not going to happen this winter or next or many to come after. When hans pride themselves of tricking opponents then even their fear of face loss will have to be evaluated as a trickery. Only way to deal with such tricksters is to keep them at arms length and not have any long term relationships. Goals should be no chinese presence within India, establishing of Indian MIC, jailing MoU signers, constant salami slicing, not believing anything that china says or does, etc.

Still no news of Indian side increasing build up of missiles which seems to be the only local stand off weapon for time being.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby SSridhar » 16 Sep 2020 18:58

AdityaM wrote:often read here that some indian king had managed to extend his influence to Tibet or over china. can anyone point me to that

That was Maharajah Ranjit Singh, the great Sikh emperor. Gulab Singh was a subordinate of Ranjit Singh. Gen. Zorawar Singh was Gulab Singh's General who led the troops into Tibet.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby amar_p » 16 Sep 2020 19:02

Dilbu wrote:China belts out Punjabi numbers for Indian soldiers at Ladakh. It is a ‘62 trick
While the Indian Army was not amused by Chinese military tactics, the military commanders rolled up in mirth after PLA troops on Finger 4 starting belting out Punjabi numbers to soften up the adversary into lowering their guard on the firecely-contested mountainous spur. If the north bank of Pangong Tso was jiving to Punjabi songs on PLA loudspeakers, a battery of loudspeakers were deployed by the Red Army at their Moldo Garrison in Chushul sector to remind the Indian troops of, what they claim, is the folly of their political masters

On the southern banks of Pangong Tso, the Chinese loudspeakers told Indian troops in chaste Hindi about the futility of being deployed at these heights in winter season on the whims and fancies of Indian politicians back in Delhi. The whole idea of PLA is to pull down the morale of Indian troops and create dissatisfaction among the soldiers that they do not always get hot steaming meals, logistics and a snowy winter ahead.

According to a former Indian Army chief, the PLA used the same loudspeaker tactics in 1962 skirmishes in the western and eastern sectors as well during the 1967 Nathu La skirmish. “But the Indian troops were foxed about the Punjabi songs on Finger 4. Maybe, the PLA thought that troops from Punjab were holding on to the higher heights of Finger 4 feature,” said the former army chief
.


Some Chini Hyperwarefare munna seems to have read my post on Infantry equipment thread and stole the idea :rotfl:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby SSridhar » 16 Sep 2020 19:13


This guy is suppessing facts, like there is no mention of Galwan violence by China through subterfuge or Hot Spring, Depsang and Pangong Tso intrusions. He blames India for escalation of violence. I don't know who he is but he is certainly not speaking the truth, more than that he is peddling Chinese narrative. No wonder WaPo is publishing this nonsense.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby jamwal » 16 Sep 2020 19:13

SSridhar wrote:
AdityaM wrote:often read here that some indian king had managed to extend his influence to Tibet or over china. can anyone point me to that

That was Maharajah Ranjit Singh, the great Sikh emperor. Gulab Singh was a subordinate of Ranjit Singh. Gen. Zorawar Singh was Gulab Singh's General who led the troops into Tibet.


OT to thread.

Maharaja Gulab Singh started as a simple soldier fighting against Sikh armies during their invasions of hill states of Jammu. He later joined Maharaja Ranjit Singh's army. Sikhs had very limited success in subjugating any of hill states in Jammu and Himachal after multiple invasions. After Gulab Singh caught Ranjit Singh's eye, he was declared king of northern regions. His General Zoravar Singh (who was born in Himachal) led a army of local Dogra soldiers in to numerous conquests which led to addition of most of Laddakh, parts of Tibet and all of what is now PoK in to Maharaja Gulab Singh's territory. He declared himself a fully sovereign king soon after the drama of multiple assassinations in Sikh durbar which followed death of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Zoravar Singh himself died during a military campaign in Tibet.

Maharaja Gulab Singh's brother Mian Dido bitterly opposed him joining Sikh empire and fought a bloody guerrilla campaign against them all his life. Their aged father was killed by Sikh soldiers and Mian Dido shot in an ambush some time later.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby samirdiw » 16 Sep 2020 19:17

Dilbu wrote:Expecting Han Chinese soldiers to stay back and survive winters, challenging a hardened Indian army, for whom such tenures are routine is almost impossible. It is for this reason that China is not desirous of dragging the current standoff into the winter. India, on the other hand is in no rush to end the standoff, unless it concludes on its own terms. It has already begun preparing for a long haul.


Would this be a great time then to make a dash for G219/G318? If successful will solve our border problems for a long time plus cut down China to size quite a bit. Its not too far off too that we cannot maintain a supply. What can they do?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby SSridhar » 16 Sep 2020 19:21

darshan wrote:c . . . their fear of face loss will have to be evaluated as a trickery. . . .

May be true, the fear of loss of face. But, loss of face would be pretty bad.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 16 Sep 2020 19:35

SSridhar wrote:This guy is suppessing facts, like there is no mention of Galwan violence by China through subterfuge or Hot Spring, Depsang and Pangong Tso intrusions. He blames India for escalation of violence. I don't know who he is but he is certainly not speaking the truth, more than that he is peddling Chinese narrative. No wonder WaPo is publishing this nonsense.


This joker was peddling nonsense that Indian Army cannot face PLA's action on LAC because it is too large and made for conventional warfare. This is forcing GoI to compromise, as IA is providing 2 options : full war or nothing..

I asked him on twitter, if large armies are so bad, why is PA & PLA maintaining such a large army ?. dude didn't reply.

Then the action on Aug 29/31 saw an egg on his face, proving him wrong and is now trying to discredit IA's action..

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby SSridhar » 16 Sep 2020 19:36

Why is that guy with the ORF ?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby AdityaM » 16 Sep 2020 19:42

SSridhar wrote:
AdityaM wrote:often read here that some indian king had managed to extend his influence to Tibet or over china. can anyone point me to that

That was Maharajah Ranjit Singh, the great Sikh emperor. Gulab Singh was a subordinate of Ranjit Singh. Gen. Zorawar Singh was Gulab Singh's General who led the troops into Tibet.

Looks like Gen. Zorawar Singh went in for only a brief time and ultimately died in the process. So no other indian ruler has held sway over Tibet or any other chinese territory?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 16 Sep 2020 19:45

IIRC, from a video, Some Ladhaki rules seem to have exercised control over portions of Tibet from Leh. I just can't recall the video .. it was about a book on Indian FP or India China.
Last edited by pankajs on 16 Sep 2020 19:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby jamwal » 16 Sep 2020 19:46

Zoravar Singh's expedition was carried on by other Dogra soldiers and Tibetans defeated again.
Hilly kingdoms of Himachal and some Laddakhi kings have a long history of controlling parts of Tibet since records are being kept. Check Mian Govardhan Singh's book Himachal Pradesh Ka Itihaas.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 16 Sep 2020 20:02

vijayk wrote:
Philip wrote:Latest info says that the PLAAF is deploying several H-6 strat bombers in Ladakh.Armed with a variety of standoff missiles from 2000 km, they could pose a serious threat to our naval forces and shipping in the IOR. Thd PRCis also expected to also operate their H-6s from Paki air bases to offset the huge disadvantage they have against India not only in the IOR but also in the ICS.


What is our defense?



See its not so simple as to ask an innocent pooch!
Recently there were reports in the Indian media of Chinese trolls monitoring prominent Indian personalities to get an inkling of policy foresights.
THis thread despite being 29 pages is 134K views.
So to expect some oen to spill their guts and answer the innocent question is too much.

And Philp belongs to old generation thats not sure of new Indian despite many evidences and will keep posting such stuff.

Using standoff weapons of that type is a serious escalation, for PRC is a P-5 power and there is no guarantee that the missile is convetnional only. So it could lead to launch on warning.
Xi Jinping can be happy that he has enusred the end of Cocmmunist China.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Philip » 16 Sep 2020 20:04

In the piece in a US rag, the author is derisive of us meeting a long drawn out because of the cost factor to us.If we are very prudent and exercise cost-effectiveness in defence acquisitions,we can weather any storm from Han-land.
Right now,every arms OEM is peddling their wares from west to east.The latest,the F-15E as a magic bullet for the IAF failing to remember the 12-0 victoey by the IAF against the same birds,earlier version though, some years ago in exercises against rhe IAF with its MKIs and Bisons. Similarly the east/ Ru havd been tempting us with aircraft from MIG-35s,SU-35s,SU-57s et al.The Europeans with more Raffys,Typhoons- a deal which included civil aircraft tech too,.
What the IAF require to counter the Sino- Pak JV are numbers. Here delays and low prod. rate of the LCA is affecting our inventory. Whatever superiority we may have in skills,battle experience,etc.,the Hans have large numbers of everything to throw at us and are factoring in large casualties in their quest for victory. When you add the Paki complement to the occasion, the value of numbers becomes immediately apparent.

Therefore,now is the time for the GOI to fast-track cost-effectivd solutions for our needs on all fronts. Every $ saved is a $ earned.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 16 Sep 2020 20:17

Hari Nair wrote:Drifting a bit OT -
Prof Nalapat has a point about alliances. But then, every alliance has its commitments. Are we ready for those?

For example - what happens if the US asks us as a QPQ to land "boots on the ground" in Afghanistan (as they recently had), to facilitate their withdrawal?

Meaningful alliances to have be built up over periods of time - check out NATO or the Five Eyes (FVEY). Those did not come up overnight. Even NATO is now under threat due to perceived feet dragging by Germany to meet its share of commitments.
Its difficult to hop onto a favourable alliance bus overnight, especially just at the point when a country is confronted by a crisis.


The US after WWII has had alliances with countries less in size than itself.

India is a diplomatic outlier.
How to ally with an equal.?
Statecraft alwasy says ally with a larger or smaller power.
Traditonal statecraft and strategy says US should ally with India if they wish to manage rise of China.
Luttwak says logic of strategy is #1(US) allies with #3 (India) to manage #2 (China).

However after GWB years, Obama administration paid only lip service to this logic of strategy for right after 2008 onwards we see unnconstrained rise of China amonst the ashes of world economy.Obama admiistration had its own demons of Cold War and a shrieking witch (shcrengast) drivinng their India policy.

It was Trump who saw the need to ally with India and that too after he starte hsi trade war.
The pacts that were signed are all limited in scope and time as they both feel/size each other.
US doesn't want a reapeat of China rise wherre it again feels threatened.

One fact for you Hari.

According to a video on YouTube India by 2050 will ahve a population fo 230 Million people with IQ 110.

In the knowledge economy its scary for that 2/3 of the current US population .

I was told this is the future threat by a strategy guru in 2010.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 16 Sep 2020 20:26

Philip wrote:In the piece in a US rag, the author is derisive of us meeting a long drawn out because of the cost factor to us.If we are very prudent and exercise cost-effectiveness in defence acquisitions,we can weather any storm from Han-land.
Right now,every arms OEM is peddling their wares from west to east.The latest,the F-15E as a magic bullet for the IAF failing to remember the 12-0 victoey by the IAF against the same birds,earlier version though, some years ago in exercises against rhe IAF with its MKIs and Bisons. Similarly the east/ Ru havd been tempting us with aircraft from MIG-35s,SU-35s,SU-57s et al.The Europeans with more Raffys,Typhoons- a deal which included civil aircraft tech too,.
What the IAF require to counter the Sino- Pak JV are numbers. Here delays and low prod. rate of the LCA is affecting our inventory. Whatever superiority we may have in skills,battle experience,etc.,the Hans have large numbers of everything to throw at us and are factoring in large casualties in their quest for victory. When you add the Paki complement to the occasion, the value of numbers becomes immediately apparent.

Therefore,now is the time for the GOI to fast-track cost-effectivd solutions for our needs on all fronts. Every $ saved is a $ earned.


Hence the negative import list from MOD and kickstarting the Defence mfg under Phase 2 of #AtmaNirbarBharat

Its not just numbers but differetn way of fighint is needed.

After the Galwan attack:

Please tally up

1)Trade surplus loss

2) Tech companies like tencent/byte dance taking hits

3) Loss of investment opportunities in road/rail/telecom sectors in India

4) Loss of over 35 mountain tops in chushul

5) Over 60-115 soldiers in Galwan

6) Losing Maldives-SL to India-US

7) Cancellation of Kra canal by Thailand under sustained Indo-US-Japan pressure

8) India started app ban that is spreading to US and EU

9) Germany/France and Uk signalling in indo-pacific

For the first time like forever,thé costs for the Chinese are HUGE

Since Modi ji took over India has successfully staved off:-

1) Depsang
2) Chumar
3) Doklam, &
4)Ladakh

With escalation in actions by Chinese and counter actions from Indians

Something to reflect on . As it was saidd its multi-dimensional.

The biggest boost to me is the end of the myth of ten-foot China men haunting Delhi Lootyens since 1962.

The military and common people never fell for this.
But Congress party and Babucracy especially IFS fell for this 1962 Syndrome similar to Stockholm Syndrome.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby chetak » 16 Sep 2020 20:42

nam wrote:MoH babus have replied that there has no infiltration on the Indo China border in the last 6 months. Even in this situation, the lot want to play with the words.

It could either mean they are referring to border areas other than LAC. or infiltration as in what is happening on LoC! The PLA action is transgression, while what Paks do is infiltration..!

Proper babu talk to cover their back side. Total yes prime minister type statement..


the hans may make some sort of a play before the hard winter sets in, both in the arunachal and in the pangang tso regions.

their ladla chocolatey soldiers and their long supply lines don't bode too well for them to see out the winter with high morale


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