India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby chetak » 14 Nov 2020 20:49

iceberg like in its proportions, there is a huge "talk to pakis" and "lets not provoke china" lobby operating among the liberandu, lootyens, congi/commie politicos, bollywood, left licking presstitutes, retd military and babooze who are supported, aided and encouraged with resources, jobs and five star thinktanki infrastructure to push this agenda and actively undermine any signs of overt aggression. Covert aggression wise, everyone here well know what happened to Gen VK Singh's Technical Support Division (TSD).

this is how the cheeni were allowed to build border infrastructure unhindered and the pakis were allowed to develop a huge social support infrastructure in India to push their points of view while India was not allowed to do either by Indians in the pay of these anti India forces.

and in the end, like the pakis and the cheenis well know: na biwi na bachha na baap bada na maiyan the whole is that ke bhaiya sabse bada rupaiya and rupaiya they supplied by the truckload.

the army is not risk averse because its raison d’être does not permit it to be, and like always, it does what it's told to do and that especially includes frontline troops.

no army gets paid to go haring off over the horizon on its own.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Karan M » 14 Nov 2020 21:39

Cyrano wrote:Karan M ji,
Let me layout the reasoning why my view point has shifted over time from a peace advocating nationalist - I've argued on BR that a peaceful and prosperous Pakistan is good for India against fellow members opining that Pakistan needs to be broken up - to my current position. Pakistan as a country remains firmly in the grip of its Military Establishment. This goes for its political parties, institutions, and importantly, its radical elements. Gen Zia fuelled the islamic radicalisation of the country as a powerful tool to control its people, though its roots lie in partition, two nation theory and Khilafat movement that predated Zia. By controlling these radical elements who are by definition opposed to education & modernism which are the pillars for development, he could not only maintain ideological and cultural control but also got a free pass for civil and economic control. He and his successors used this power to fund and strengthen the military and by making a Hindu India is enemy No 1 as the justification. The Pak Military has for decades consumed a disproportionate share of resources and through its MoD, Fauji Foundation, MLC etc. have established unchallenged grip on every aspect of the country today. Keeping up their anti India sentiment through the Kashmir cause is central to this strategy. They have managed to keep a strengthening India tentative in dealing with this menace by brandishing nukes and letting unhinged elements spout their rhetoric. So far, I've not said anything you don't already know.


Yes - we concur.

Meanwhile, India has dealt with numerous challenges and in many ways has turned the corner. In terms of economic growth, infrastructure, technology, health care, soft power, diplomacy and of course military power, India is on a trajectory that Pakistan simply cannot match or catch up to. India's rise is an eloquent slap in the face of the radical islamic and anti Hindu rhetoric the Army has been feeding generations of Pakistanis. In the recent years, due to some clear headed thinking by MADJ we have called the Pak bluff on the escalation ladder and have riposted its proxy terror war with surgical strikes. But that did not prevent Uri or Pulwama. Then we did Balakot and have had considerable success on the international scene exposing Pak and have tightened the screws with FATF etc. There has been slight decrease in terror activity in recent times not because Pak has reduced its efforts or has changed its strategy, but because we have significantly stepped up effort to weed out and eliminate jihadis.


This is where we disagree. I am being realistic here, you are talking trajectory, I am talking of the current situation.

1st, we have not "gone up the escalation ladder", fully yet. We have very carefully, tested where Pakistan's so called, actual redlines were and prevented escalation. Why? Because MAD's focus is on development, first and foremost. To that extent, they have very carefully calibrated their domestic and international strategy. Even foregoing many elements of the "cultural priority" list core and dear to many of their supporters.
2. If we wanted to call Pak's bluff on the escalation ladder fully - we would have hit back after Pakistans attack on Feb 27th.
3. We don't do so because the current lot in Delhi are very very hard nosed. They evaluated exactly what message we wanted to send, decided a war was not worth the effort if Pakistan returned our pilot, and stopped the conflict there itself, allowing Pakistan to "save face" via non stop propaganda around countering Indian power. But they also created a new normal, wherein as we wish, we hit Pak across the LoC and if need be, strike harder using airpower, ground forces, and who knows, it will be the Navy next.
4. The current GOI's focus is on Make in India which has now segued into "Atmanirbhar Bharat". They want a river of FDI into India and huge development in infra. They also want zero negative press about "flashpoints". Hence you can see how closely they locked up stories of the mobilization against PRC or Pak both.
5. They have also laid down a huge amount of political capital in cleaning up the crony capitalist ecosystem, which soaked up all the Govt and pvt funding and created fake as versus real growth.
6. With all that done, the phase is now of economic consolidation and post pandemic recovery. We don't want our yet to arrive foreign investors to be spooked away with thoughts of conflict. Even while we continue to wage conflict at a "low level".
7. The other aspect is political power. India is capital starved. We have huge aspirations from the lower middle class and lower economic strata. When those aspirations are not met, they promptly vote out the Govt in power. The clock is ticking for the current Govt. If we lose this Govt, forget Pak, I am concerned what will happen in every sphere.
8. Given the above, the GOI is not looking at fancy PPTs about trajectory and future growth etc. They have to be very hard nosed about the current reality where the exchequer is barely able to meet the basic deterrence capabilities of the IAF, IA etc. We have ordered a ton of gear for a short war, but we need many more years given the wrecking ball OROP has been on the capex.
9. Most of the items we have purchased and ordered, despite the above fiscal constraints are yet to arrive. These include our SAMs, our full Rafale order etc.
10. In short,while the GOI does not "want" war, its preparing us to defend ourselves and wage war if need be. This is not the same as a huge economic engine dedicated to conflict which is what the US or even the USSR during the Cold War were.
11. The US took care of its economy and thrived, the USSR imploded. We don't want to be the USSR.
12. We need time - both to rejig our MIC, restart our economy, and then get to the point that a conflict with Pak/PRC becomes absurd because a 45 strong AF is capable of taking on both. A 50% difference from where we are today.

India's tolerance levels have decreased but if we are not willing to strike at the root of the problem - Pak Military - we will be seen as still tolerant enough and willing to take some level of terror damage and loss of life as long as its not some big Pulwama type incident. That attitude is exactly the lifeline needed for the proxy war jihadi strategy. Despite our tactical retaliations like what happened yesterday, PA will keep it alive to reassure radicals and anti-india forces that there is still support for them and PA has not given up, and to continue drip feeding their own population on the opiate of the Kashmir cause and anti Hindu - anti India narrative. Heck they have not given up supporting Khalistan after all these years.


We are hitting the Pak military almost every other day. Short of a total war, the daily run rate in singles, the occasional four and six is what we can do, and that in itself is causing the PA significant grief. They seek to retaliate via the occasional BAT aatack to keep morale up. However, short of all-out-conflict, this is what serves India's interests. We continue to bleed the Pak Army but at the same time, create a quasi-normal situation wherein anyone from the average desi jingo to the foreign investor thinks all is normal and their investments in India are safe. Is this going to always be the case? No. Every now and then Pak will take a few more of our soldiers by having their termites slip through the cracks. The gradual build up of the military is for that. The emergency purchases are for allowing a short, decisive conflict to be prepped for, in case there is war.


The biggest threat to this strategy is not FATF or international opprobrium or economic bankruptcy, their people have been brainwashed for generations into a superiority + victimhood + aggression mentality and will resist all that and "keep the faith" - remember the ghaass bhi khayenge lekin comments? Its very much true even today and will continue. The biggest threat is Kashmir getting on to a path of development, peace and prosperity, and Indian Kashmiris rejecting the separatist narrative in all its forms, and integrating into the rest of a prosperous India. Under the present Govt, for the first time in decades, that seems like a real possibility.


Agree.

If we believe we have squeezed PA through a variety of high pressure policies, which I agree with, what are we expecting to happen next ? That Pak Establishment will see the futility of their ways and have a change of heart? That they will wean themselves and their population off the anti-India rhetoric and become if not a responsible neighbour at least a non-interfering neighbour? That they will refuse the Chinese call to pay the debt by keeping India occupied on the western border and the most inappropriate of times?


What we expect is that this current no war, no peace situation will continue. The Pakistanis will grit their teeth and try infiltration, try the occasional Mumbai, while we keep knocking them down and occasionally delivering the surgical strike/Balakot style thappad short of an all out war. It is the new "normal". We want to own the sub-conventional space in our own way.

The stakes are high for us, not for PA. If they see years of investment in the proxy war & terror industry coming to a zero result, their ingrained anti-India predicated mindset will push them to risk it all since their "all" is not much. I'm sure PA Generals have learnt a thing or two from their Chinese friends and have made D-day plans should India attack, to escape with moolah and live in comfy exile somewhere. Pizza Papa investments are not an accident or a one off case.


I dont think this will happen because only a few Paki jarnails have that asset base abroad. Most of the rank and file own huge assets in Pak. itself. They will not want to give them up. Our real threat are the next generation of radical Pak Army types who are true religious radicals and want an apocalyptic conflict to attain martyrdom. These folks can't be reasoned with or deterred via the possibility of an IA attack savaging their ill-gotten territorial estates. That is the reason why despite no war no peace, we have to continue to build up.

From India's perspective, there will always be a good reason not to attack, a good reason to say "not now". It can be the pandemic, the economy, a bad monsoon, state elections, IPL season (just kidding) or some other reason. Similar reasons have not discouraged our neighbours as you can see.


Over time, the differential in combat capability will be to the point that it makes it much more easier for a political establishment to attack.

Here are 5 reasons I believe we should break the back of PA, and do it ASAP:
1. PA for the same reasons cited, is hurting a lot more right now. We have squeezed and weakened the Establishment for the past 5 years, but incremental gains are decreasing and we need to move to the next step.
2. We have a leadership that can make such a decision, succeed in achieving the objectives and recovering from it. Who knows what the fickle electorate will vote for in 2024 ? If a weaker Govt comes into power, we'll be set back by 50 years in just one term.
3. Faced with a strong enemy China supported by its weak ally Pak Army, its better to deal with the weak ally first. Like Jarasandha. Before Pak cedes large swaths of G-B to China under the CPEC sham to save itself from fighting India alone. That would give China a legitimate excuse to intervene, like they would now if we tried to regain Shaksgam valley. PA will do it at some point of time to save themselves.
4. Chinese strategy is based on a soft pliable India. They would not want to get into conflict with an already belligerent India now. But in a few years, if B&RI and CEPC take off to some extent, they haven't given up on it one bit, the stakes will be higher and they may be willing to risk more.
5. India is on a trajectory to become a major power, economically and geo-politically. Unfortunately our neighbours will not let that happen by just sitting back and watching us grow. Or take the proffered hand of friendship by collaborating and sharing the success. If our rise is curtailed in this decade, it will mean another half a century of stagnation. Our neighbours know it.


Please see above. To fight Pak, current GOI wants us to become a PRC equivalent economically. I suggest they do have their thinking cap on. They want to win a war in the most effective manner. Retain the economic engine and overwhelm a broke Pak which is far behind militarily.

As we labour the field of our destiny, we have to remove rocks and weeds from our path. The British have left us in a divided, devitalised state akin to Khandvaprastha. After decades of struggle, we are close to making it Indraprastha. So conflict is inevitable at some point. We can shape its contours or be shaped by it. The choice and the responsibility is ours.

I'll come to why missile strikes in a later post. Time to send up some Diwali missiles (crackers) first!

Happy Diwali to all Bharat Rakshaks.


To fight what the Brit did to us, we need a widespread economic and cultural renewal. Consider this, did beating up Pak in 1971 alone change the strategy of India's power as much as what PVNR + ABV did when they combined economic + military means both?

Wish you a Happy Diwali too.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby vijayk » 14 Nov 2020 22:45

Brahma Chellany is saying we are vacating all the peaks and China is going to occupy sooner or later ...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby madhu » 14 Nov 2020 23:58

India On Verge Of Losing The Holy Kailash Range To China As Demands Grow Not To Abandon It Again?

the Indian media failed to report was that the proposed new agreement entailed a difficult decision for India, which is to withdraw its troops from the Kailash range. The entire Kailash range is being converted into a buffer zone, disallowing the troops from both the sides to patrol it.

According to Lt Gen H S Panag, who has served more than 40 years in the Indian army ​as ​GOC in Northern Command and Central Command, “It seems to be a quid pro quo agreement for the PLA to withdraw east of Finger 8 (north of Pangong Tso) and us withdrawing from the Kailash Range
.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby YashG » 15 Nov 2020 10:20

vijayk wrote:Brahma Chellany is saying we are vacating all the peaks and China is going to occupy sooner or later ...


I'm not sure Chinese can reoccupy. I'm sure command line isnt as naive. But we should never vacate the heights. I read here a celebrated article by a veteran who said vacating those heights will be desh-droh.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Mort Walker » 15 Nov 2020 12:49

vijayk wrote:Brahma Chellany is saying we are vacating all the peaks and China is going to occupy sooner or later ...



This would be a morale killer for the services.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby schinnas » 15 Nov 2020 13:03

We have taught a lesson to Chinese and gotten an accord on our terms that we can comfortably monitor (both with our HUMINT, ELINT and US SATINT) and ensure corrective action in case of any breach by Cheen.

This also reduces the expensive risky foot print for our brave soldiers. There is no reason to put our soldiers lives at risk for a stalemate. This frees our army to focus on getting back GB and PoK in a time bound manner.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Cyrano » 15 Nov 2020 17:34

What kind of compromise is that? Have we forgotten that ALL of Aksai-Hind is Indian territory? For China having ingressed into Indian side of LAC, we are willing to accept a buffer zone where we will cease to patrol our own territory? This is pure BS.

India should keep "considering" such offers until the end of winter and then boot out the weakened Chinese with a kick to their frozen bottoms.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 15 Nov 2020 18:03

All POK too is Indian territory but Iam yet to see GOI make a play for it dispite constant shelling, firing, infiltration attempt, etc etc.

If we are not booting the Chinese or for that matter the Baki's inspite of their constant nuisance on the loc there must be a rason.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Pratyush » 15 Nov 2020 18:45

But Bijing has ruled out any breakthrough on the stand off.

This ceding of Kailash range as a buffer zone appears to be a psyop.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby YashG » 15 Nov 2020 19:13

If the breakthrough is off, cool.

The standoff is hurting China more than us. As the aggressor and allegedly the 'bigger power', the onus is on China to show a result. Not us. This standoff just hurts Chinese posturing, if they cudnt push India, US is a faroff bet. Also shows, the Chinese plans dont work always.

The standoff is not without the cost for India but longterm, its a bigger cost to China.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 15 Nov 2020 19:29

As I have stated from after the Aug end "re-adjustment" we have more than compensated for the the Chinese gambit on the LCA. So we are comfortably placed wrt the LAC if there is no breakthrough.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 15 Nov 2020 19:33

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w2JUwnhW90
Why Depsang plains, not just Pangong Tso withdrawal, is critical to India-China LAC disengagement




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPCT4N2VMQ4
How Modi has made a ‘Nehruvian’ half-blunder on China & ignored investing in the military

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Cain Marko » 15 Nov 2020 21:48

Cyrano wrote:What kind of compromise is that? Have we forgotten that ALL of Aksai-Hind is Indian territory? For China having ingressed into Indian side of LAC, we are willing to accept a buffer zone where we will cease to patrol our own territory? This is pure BS.

India should keep "considering" such offers until the end of winter and then boot out the weakened Chinese with a kick to their frozen bottoms.

I hope at the very least we extracted some kind of deal wrt GB with the Chinese. If the TSP declares that as it's own province, and we let it slide, forget AC, aspirations wrt GB being part of India can also be forgotten.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby jamwal » 15 Nov 2020 22:16

Continuing discussion from Indian Air Force Thread
viewtopic.php?p=2470382#p2470382

Image
A senior retired army officer posted this picture wondering about it's use. Some geniuses in replies claimed it was directed energy weapon, another some kind of acoustic weapon (only he can explain how this thing can be used in war or on border without defeaning own soldiers), psychological warfare weapon, microwave weapon and what not. Another started abusing the officer
You don't know this? Good that you retired. When @PravinSawhney talks about new technology or measures people bash him. Sir, this is 2020 and the enemy is China not old style Pakistan.

:roll:
This is what this thing actually is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzwERt3LDbY
A giant loud speaker used as air raid siren. :lol:

I am all for freedom of speech and all that, but this thread is barely a step above the dumpster fire going on in Twitter. So much dhoti shivering and :(( over baseless news farticles, idiotic speculations and unending stream of posts about invincibility of China and weakness of India is pretty annoying. One day it's the drones, next is cruise missiles, then ballistic missiles, then clothing and so on and on. There are quite a few posters here who post a lot without having any connection between their fingers and brain. This thread in particular has way too many such people.
Last edited by jamwal on 15 Nov 2020 22:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Mort Walker » 15 Nov 2020 22:17

https://twitter.com/FrontalForce/status ... 1891163136

Are these 84mm Carl Gustaf shoulder launchers? Made in India by license or imported?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Pashupatastra » 16 Nov 2020 01:31

Karan M wrote:
Cyrano wrote:Karan M ji,
Let me layout the reasoning why my view point has shifted over time from a peace advocating nationalist - I've argued on BR that a peaceful and prosperous Pakistan is good for India against fellow members opining that Pakistan needs to be broken up - to my current position. Pakistan as a country remains firmly in the grip of its Military Establishment. This goes for its political parties, institutions, and importantly, its radical elements. Gen Zia fuelled the islamic radicalisation of the country as a powerful tool to control its people, though its roots lie in partition, two nation theory and Khilafat movement that predated Zia. By controlling these radical elements who are by definition opposed to education & modernism which are the pillars for development, he could not only maintain ideological and cultural control but also got a free pass for civil and economic control. He and his successors used this power to fund and strengthen the military and by making a Hindu India is enemy No 1 as the justification. The Pak Military has for decades consumed a disproportionate share of resources and through its MoD, Fauji Foundation, MLC etc. have established unchallenged grip on every aspect of the country today. Keeping up their anti India sentiment through the Kashmir cause is central to this strategy. They have managed to keep a strengthening India tentative in dealing with this menace by brandishing nukes and letting unhinged elements spout their rhetoric. So far, I've not said anything you don't already know.


Yes - we concur.

Meanwhile, India has dealt with numerous challenges and in many ways has turned the corner. In terms of economic growth, infrastructure, technology, health care, soft power, diplomacy and of course military power, India is on a trajectory that Pakistan simply cannot match or catch up to. India's rise is an eloquent slap in the face of the radical islamic and anti Hindu rhetoric the Army has been feeding generations of Pakistanis. In the recent years, due to some clear headed thinking by MADJ we have called the Pak bluff on the escalation ladder and have riposted its proxy terror war with surgical strikes. But that did not prevent Uri or Pulwama. Then we did Balakot and have had considerable success on the international scene exposing Pak and have tightened the screws with FATF etc. There has been slight decrease in terror activity in recent times not because Pak has reduced its efforts or has changed its strategy, but because we have significantly stepped up effort to weed out and eliminate jihadis.


This is where we disagree. I am being realistic here, you are talking trajectory, I am talking of the current situation.

1st, we have not "gone up the escalation ladder", fully yet. We have very carefully, tested where Pakistan's so called, actual redlines were and prevented escalation. Why? Because MAD's focus is on development, first and foremost. To that extent, they have very carefully calibrated their domestic and international strategy. Even foregoing many elements of the "cultural priority" list core and dear to many of their supporters.
2. If we wanted to call Pak's bluff on the escalation ladder fully - we would have hit back after Pakistans attack on Feb 27th.
3. We don't do so because the current lot in Delhi are very very hard nosed. They evaluated exactly what message we wanted to send, decided a war was not worth the effort if Pakistan returned our pilot, and stopped the conflict there itself, allowing Pakistan to "save face" via non stop propaganda around countering Indian power. But they also created a new normal, wherein as we wish, we hit Pak across the LoC and if need be, strike harder using airpower, ground forces, and who knows, it will be the Navy next.
4. The current GOI's focus is on Make in India which has now segued into "Atmanirbhar Bharat". They want a river of FDI into India and huge development in infra. They also want zero negative press about "flashpoints". Hence you can see how closely they locked up stories of the mobilization against PRC or Pak both.
5. They have also laid down a huge amount of political capital in cleaning up the crony capitalist ecosystem, which soaked up all the Govt and pvt funding and created fake as versus real growth.
6. With all that done, the phase is now of economic consolidation and post pandemic recovery. We don't want our yet to arrive foreign investors to be spooked away with thoughts of conflict. Even while we continue to wage conflict at a "low level".
7. The other aspect is political power. India is capital starved. We have huge aspirations from the lower middle class and lower economic strata. When those aspirations are not met, they promptly vote out the Govt in power. The clock is ticking for the current Govt. If we lose this Govt, forget Pak, I am concerned what will happen in every sphere.
8. Given the above, the GOI is not looking at fancy PPTs about trajectory and future growth etc. They have to be very hard nosed about the current reality where the exchequer is barely able to meet the basic deterrence capabilities of the IAF, IA etc. We have ordered a ton of gear for a short war, but we need many more years given the wrecking ball OROP has been on the capex.
9. Most of the items we have purchased and ordered, despite the above fiscal constraints are yet to arrive. These include our SAMs, our full Rafale order etc.
10. In short,while the GOI does not "want" war, its preparing us to defend ourselves and wage war if need be. This is not the same as a huge economic engine dedicated to conflict which is what the US or even the USSR during the Cold War were.
11. The US took care of its economy and thrived, the USSR imploded. We don't want to be the USSR.
12. We need time - both to rejig our MIC, restart our economy, and then get to the point that a conflict with Pak/PRC becomes absurd because a 45 strong AF is capable of taking on both. A 50% difference from where we are today.

India's tolerance levels have decreased but if we are not willing to strike at the root of the problem - Pak Military - we will be seen as still tolerant enough and willing to take some level of terror damage and loss of life as long as its not some big Pulwama type incident. That attitude is exactly the lifeline needed for the proxy war jihadi strategy. Despite our tactical retaliations like what happened yesterday, PA will keep it alive to reassure radicals and anti-india forces that there is still support for them and PA has not given up, and to continue drip feeding their own population on the opiate of the Kashmir cause and anti Hindu - anti India narrative. Heck they have not given up supporting Khalistan after all these years.


We are hitting the Pak military almost every other day. Short of a total war, the daily run rate in singles, the occasional four and six is what we can do, and that in itself is causing the PA significant grief. They seek to retaliate via the occasional BAT aatack to keep morale up. However, short of all-out-conflict, this is what serves India's interests. We continue to bleed the Pak Army but at the same time, create a quasi-normal situation wherein anyone from the average desi jingo to the foreign investor thinks all is normal and their investments in India are safe. Is this going to always be the case? No. Every now and then Pak will take a few more of our soldiers by having their termites slip through the cracks. The gradual build up of the military is for that. The emergency purchases are for allowing a short, decisive conflict to be prepped for, in case there is war.


The biggest threat to this strategy is not FATF or international opprobrium or economic bankruptcy, their people have been brainwashed for generations into a superiority + victimhood + aggression mentality and will resist all that and "keep the faith" - remember the ghaass bhi khayenge lekin comments? Its very much true even today and will continue. The biggest threat is Kashmir getting on to a path of development, peace and prosperity, and Indian Kashmiris rejecting the separatist narrative in all its forms, and integrating into the rest of a prosperous India. Under the present Govt, for the first time in decades, that seems like a real possibility.


Agree.

If we believe we have squeezed PA through a variety of high pressure policies, which I agree with, what are we expecting to happen next ? That Pak Establishment will see the futility of their ways and have a change of heart? That they will wean themselves and their population off the anti-India rhetoric and become if not a responsible neighbour at least a non-interfering neighbour? That they will refuse the Chinese call to pay the debt by keeping India occupied on the western border and the most inappropriate of times?


What we expect is that this current no war, no peace situation will continue. The Pakistanis will grit their teeth and try infiltration, try the occasional Mumbai, while we keep knocking them down and occasionally delivering the surgical strike/Balakot style thappad short of an all out war. It is the new "normal". We want to own the sub-conventional space in our own way.

The stakes are high for us, not for PA. If they see years of investment in the proxy war & terror industry coming to a zero result, their ingrained anti-India predicated mindset will push them to risk it all since their "all" is not much. I'm sure PA Generals have learnt a thing or two from their Chinese friends and have made D-day plans should India attack, to escape with moolah and live in comfy exile somewhere. Pizza Papa investments are not an accident or a one off case.


I dont think this will happen because only a few Paki jarnails have that asset base abroad. Most of the rank and file own huge assets in Pak. itself. They will not want to give them up. Our real threat are the next generation of radical Pak Army types who are true religious radicals and want an apocalyptic conflict to attain martyrdom. These folks can't be reasoned with or deterred via the possibility of an IA attack savaging their ill-gotten territorial estates. That is the reason why despite no war no peace, we have to continue to build up.

From India's perspective, there will always be a good reason not to attack, a good reason to say "not now". It can be the pandemic, the economy, a bad monsoon, state elections, IPL season (just kidding) or some other reason. Similar reasons have not discouraged our neighbours as you can see.


Over time, the differential in combat capability will be to the point that it makes it much more easier for a political establishment to attack.

Here are 5 reasons I believe we should break the back of PA, and do it ASAP:
1. PA for the same reasons cited, is hurting a lot more right now. We have squeezed and weakened the Establishment for the past 5 years, but incremental gains are decreasing and we need to move to the next step.
2. We have a leadership that can make such a decision, succeed in achieving the objectives and recovering from it. Who knows what the fickle electorate will vote for in 2024 ? If a weaker Govt comes into power, we'll be set back by 50 years in just one term.
3. Faced with a strong enemy China supported by its weak ally Pak Army, its better to deal with the weak ally first. Like Jarasandha. Before Pak cedes large swaths of G-B to China under the CPEC sham to save itself from fighting India alone. That would give China a legitimate excuse to intervene, like they would now if we tried to regain Shaksgam valley. PA will do it at some point of time to save themselves.
4. Chinese strategy is based on a soft pliable India. They would not want to get into conflict with an already belligerent India now. But in a few years, if B&RI and CEPC take off to some extent, they haven't given up on it one bit, the stakes will be higher and they may be willing to risk more.
5. India is on a trajectory to become a major power, economically and geo-politically. Unfortunately our neighbours will not let that happen by just sitting back and watching us grow. Or take the proffered hand of friendship by collaborating and sharing the success. If our rise is curtailed in this decade, it will mean another half a century of stagnation. Our neighbours know it.


Please see above. To fight Pak, current GOI wants us to become a PRC equivalent economically. I suggest they do have their thinking cap on. They want to win a war in the most effective manner. Retain the economic engine and overwhelm a broke Pak which is far behind militarily.

As we labour the field of our destiny, we have to remove rocks and weeds from our path. The British have left us in a divided, devitalised state akin to Khandvaprastha. After decades of struggle, we are close to making it Indraprastha. So conflict is inevitable at some point. We can shape its contours or be shaped by it. The choice and the responsibility is ours.

I'll come to why missile strikes in a later post. Time to send up some Diwali missiles (crackers) first!

Happy Diwali to all Bharat Rakshaks.


To fight what the Brit did to us, we need a widespread economic and cultural renewal. Consider this, did beating up Pak in 1971 alone change the strategy of India's power as much as what PVNR + ABV did when they combined economic + military means both?

Wish you a Happy Diwali too.


China had shown in 1962 what a well trained and we'll supplied army backed by political will can do even without an advantage in economic heft. Pakistan with a GDP less than Mumbai has given too much pain to a country the size of India. Best Time to crush it was yesterday and the next best is now. However , if the present govt. wants to leave this to a future India then IAM afraid the Stars can align against us like Panipat in 1761 or Tallikota in 1400s. If Modi - Amit shah duo can do it then hail the iron will power. Otherwise Yogi is waiting in the wings to deliver for India what it needed since long - " the complete humiliation and end of Pakistan as military dominated country".

Thanks for the chance to vent in case it is going to attract a ban.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby samirdiw » 16 Nov 2020 08:09

So withdrawal from Kailash range gives China some breathing room in its weak spot but we dont get anything to mitigate our weak spot the Depsang plains?

On the northern side by occupying the heights on 4/5 we have already mitigated their approach to 4 so them withdrawing to 8 while asking for a buffer zone isnt really anything. Is this another example of us being fooled at the table by our overeagerness for a "diplomatic" solution?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby fanne » 16 Nov 2020 08:33

who says we are withdrawing from Kailash range?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby samirdiw » 16 Nov 2020 09:47

fanne wrote:who says we are withdrawing from Kailash range?

A bunch of posts above that say its a possibility?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Karan M » 16 Nov 2020 10:05

Pashupatastra wrote:China had shown in 1962 what a well trained and we'll supplied army backed by political will can do even without an advantage in economic heft. Pakistan with a GDP less than Mumbai has given too much pain to a country the size of India. Best Time to crush it was yesterday and the next best is now. However , if the present govt. wants to leave this to a future India then IAM afraid the Stars can align against us like Panipat in 1761 or Tallikota in 1400s. If Modi - Amit shah duo can do it then hail the iron will power. Otherwise Yogi is waiting in the wings to deliver for India what it needed since long - " the complete humiliation and end of Pakistan as military dominated country".

Thanks for the chance to vent in case it is going to attract a ban.


India is not Maoist China. What part of that is hard to grasp? India is not going to slaughter all of its sparrows. Destroy its economy by melting household utensils into pig iron. Commit a genocide of its own citizens. Or invade a neighbour with no clear thought of long term strategy beyond humiliating its leader and its then establishment. If you think the current leadership is stupid enough to do that, you are mistaken.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Deans » 16 Nov 2020 10:06

Pashupatastra wrote:China had shown in 1962 what a well trained and we'll supplied army backed by political will can do even without an advantage in economic heft. Pakistan with a GDP less than Mumbai has given too much pain to a country the size of India. Best Time to crush it was yesterday and the next best is now. However , if the present govt. wants to leave this to a future India then IAM afraid the Stars can align against us like Panipat in 1761 or Tallikota in 1400s. If Modi - Amit shah duo can do it then hail the iron will power. Otherwise Yogi is waiting in the wings to deliver for India what it needed since long - " the complete humiliation and end of Pakistan as military dominated country".

Thanks for the chance to vent in case it is going to attract a ban.


The PLA in 1962 was neither well trained nor well supplied. (though their officer corps had more battle experience than ours - not true now).
They prevailed because we were totally unprepared, outnumbered and outgunned.

While India's GDP may be about 9 times Pakistan's, there is rough parity in the number of divisions we can deploy against each other. In theory at least, whatever numerical superiority we do have is not enough to give us a decisive conventional victory (and if that does look like happening, there is a higher risk of tactical nukes being used). Hence, it is better to compete economically, while ensuring that Pak's low intensity war against us yields diminishing returns - at the same time isolating them further. I see the situation being similar to South vs. North Korea today.

The reverse situation is true of India vs. China. Before we can stand up to China, we have to ensure we close the gap in logistics and firepower.
I see both these happening in 2022 because:
- China is now recognised as the principal adversary.
- Army's deployment will be realigned from the North east, towards Ladakh and we'll have the infra to operate with a larger force in Ladakh.
- Border roads (65 of them) completed
- Urgent gaps in weapons procurement will start getting filled (e.g S-400/Akash, Tejas/Rafale, Helicopters).

Apart from that, I see India's GDP growth becoming consistently higher than China from as early as Jan 2021 (it had also started outpacing China
in 2018-9).

Rather than being concerned about India not being able to `throw out the Chinese' now, I see it as India prevailing over a much stronger China without firing a shot and making the probability of China prevailing in future far less likely. If they could not grab our territory when we in the middle of our worst economic crisis since independence, Kashmir expected to be in flames after 370, CAA/NRC (possible Ram temple) agitation by the usual suspects, Covid pandemic, govt weak after losing State elections, twin cyclones etc, how would they manage it in future ?
Last edited by Deans on 16 Nov 2020 12:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Karan M » 16 Nov 2020 10:58

GDP at the end of the day is a notional construct in terms of actual money in the hand. What really matters is the amount of revenue available to the GOI and where are we on the income ladder, per capita plus the budget available for R&D, military procurement post social /essential spending. Lack of individual earning capacity and baseline forces GOI to be more of a welfare state. Leaves less money for weapons and military. We have to wait at least another decade IMHO with the BJP in power till we are at the point we can wage war without emergency buys.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Aditya_V » 16 Nov 2020 11:03

Deans wrote:The PLA in 1962 was neither well trained nor well supplied. (though their officer corps had more battle experience than ours - not true now).
They prevailed because we were totally unprepared, outnumbered and outgunned.



+1
That is key we had 15 years of Nehru Rule following British Rule who destroyed the very concept of National Security, neither Pakistan or China is that unprepared and destroying their Miltary.

Further, we Indians need to study history, not JNU fed rubbish or popular movie narratives. Wars require proper preparation and we are clearly 10-15 years behind having the capability to win decisively.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby sudeepj » 16 Nov 2020 11:22

To me, the finger area/north pangong tso appears strategically useless, while the Kailash ranges are very defensible. Either there should be a wholesale deescalation across the entire border or none at all. Exchanging finger area for Kailash range positions is a win for PLA. This should not happen.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Deans » 16 Nov 2020 12:15

sudeepj wrote:To me, the finger area/north pangong tso appears strategically useless, while the Kailash ranges are very defensible. Either there should be a wholesale deescalation across the entire border or none at all. Exchanging finger area for Kailash range positions is a win for PLA. This should not happen.


Yes. Of all the areas along the LAC China has tried to intrude into, this is strategically of least value - at least the Galwan Valley intrusion (tactically useless at the point they were stopped), might have resulted in the Durbuk-DBO road being cut-off, which is not the case with Pangong.
Our problem is that we are at an advantage only on the Kailash range. The PLA has intruded (or prevented our patrolling) in the Depsang plain and Hot Springs-Gogra area, apart from Pangong. We need to do another operation to threaten the PLA - possibly moving an armoured formation to threaten the Demchok area (that is where the PLA is most vulnerable ( G-219 highway and the logistics hub of Ngari are close) or by something similar in the North Sikkim / Arunachal area - forcing the Chinese to counter deploy 2 more divisions at high altitude, without disturbing our divisions already deployed in the North Sikkim, Tawang area. Then, we can negotiate from a better position.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Lisa » 16 Nov 2020 14:49

My thinking may be wrong but what exact military experience do we attribute to the chinese that allowed then to have an upper edge on us in 1962 relative to an Indian Army that had fought in every military theatre of WW2?

And for seconds, why is Russia not view as a source for cold weather clothing considering their experience in Siberia. All the discussions here relate to suppliers in the west whereas one the largest army operating in severe cold is the Russian.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby jamwal » 16 Nov 2020 15:32

Cold weather clothing issue is mostly useless dhoti shivering. Only thing that is not manufactured in India is high quality and light trekking and climbing equipment like very light weight yet warm tents, carbiners, harnesses, axes etc. There are a lot of local manufacturers which make this stuff, but their quality is usually not as good as some expensive brands such as North Face.

I have one jacket bought from a cantt market in 2011 and I've been taking it to mountains every year. It's light, thin and yet quite warm. Only sign of wear is slight fading after so much time in high altitude sun and a bit of thread coming off at one pocket. Same thing by any of the European brands would've cost atleast INR 10000.
There are a fairly large number of local manufacturers who can easily make all these things if they get the orders. From what I've seen, their stuff is stronger, thicker and hence weighs a bit more. There are no local high quality snow and trekking shoe manufacturers that I know of, but even that's not difficult if there's money.
Last edited by jamwal on 16 Nov 2020 17:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Cyrano » 16 Nov 2020 15:51

As an example uber high tech alpine clothing and equipment Co. Arcteryx which also supplies a lot to various forces, has a manufacturing set up in Bangladesh. Why did they not set up in India I wonder ?!!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Dilbu » 16 Nov 2020 16:20

Bangladesh has special market access because of its Least Developed Country (LDC) status and goods manufactured there may enjoy duty free market access to more countries compared to a factory setup in India. This might be the reason.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Cyrano » 16 Nov 2020 17:08

Karan M,
Thanks for your post. If this is indeed GoI's approach, it seems quite realistic and achievable, but some concerns remain:

1. 2022 seems optimistic given the gap wrt where we want to be on many capability aspects. While this is less of an issue wrt Pak, China will have moved ahead as well and would maintain/increase the gap.

2. The continued impact of Covid on India's and world's economy and the uncertainty about how long it will last.

3. Realising Atmanirbhar Bharat is at least a decade away to deliver a significant MFG capability jump, we are a lot behind RoW and this is a hell lot more competitive domain than for ex IT & ITES or even Pharma have been.

Will our neighbours stick to their current nuisance levels meanwhile, which GoI seems to assume and considers "tolerable" is the big question.

What if they don't?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Cyrano » 16 Nov 2020 17:11

Dilbu wrote:Bangladesh has special market access because of its Least Developed Country (LDC) status and goods manufactured there may enjoy duty free market access to more countries compared to a factory setup in India. This might be the reason.


Yeah, that might be the reason Dilbu ji.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ParGha » 17 Nov 2020 03:50

Lisa wrote:My thinking may be wrong but what exact military experience do we attribute to the chinese that allowed then to have an upper edge on us in 1962 relative to an Indian Army that had fought in every military theatre of WW2?.


1. Higher command experience - only one Indian officer, Colonel Thimmayya, commanded a brigade in WW2 (not even Brigadier Cariappa had command experience with a brigade); Indian officers were simply neither trusted nor trained to handle higher formations by the British. Almost all ChiCom armies were commanded by Chinese in WW2, and the older generals and field-marshals would have mentored and trained the junior officers.

2. Near-peer and superior adversary experience - Chinese officers were veterans of the Chinese Civil War (near-peer adversary) and Korean War (against much better trained and equipped US/UN armies). Indian officers had only experienced fighting Pathan tribals, mutinous J&K state forces and a few Pak army men in mufti... or the hapless Hyderabadis and Portuguese in Goa.

3. Outdated doctrines - the combination of poor education, limited experience and complacency from easy victories meant that Indians clung on to outdated doctrines (in some cases, they still do). Even basics like organic medium-machine guns were ignored in favor of obsolete British practice of MMG detachments. The Chinese updated their doctrines after brutal losses in Korea.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby kirpalbasra » 17 Nov 2020 04:57

ParGha wrote:
Lisa wrote:My thinking may be wrong but what exact military experience do we attribute to the chinese that allowed then to have an upper edge on us in 1962 relative to an Indian Army that had fought in every military theatre of WW2?.


1. Higher command experience - only one Indian officer, Colonel Thimmayya, commanded a brigade in WW2 (not even Brigadier Cariappa had command experience with a brigade); Indian officers were simply neither trusted nor trained to handle higher formations by the British. Almost all ChiCom armies were commanded by Chinese in WW2, and the older generals and field-marshals would have mentored and trained the junior o

Makes me want to bang my head into a brick wall
with youre statement. WE HAD EXCELLENT GENERALS AND WELL TRAINED ARMY BLAME THE F.....G Gov of the day not the armed forces.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ks_sachin » 17 Nov 2020 05:06

kirpalbasra wrote:
ParGha wrote:


1. Higher command experience - only one Indian officer, Colonel Thimmayya, commanded a brigade in WW2 (not even Brigadier Cariappa had command experience with a brigade); Indian officers were simply neither trusted nor trained to handle higher formations by the British. Almost all ChiCom armies were commanded by Chinese in WW2, and the older generals and field-marshals would have mentored and trained the junior o

Makes me want to bang my head into a brick wall
with youre statement. WE HAD EXCELLENT GENERALS AND WELL TRAINED ARMY BLAME THE F.....G Gov of the day not the armed forces.



Before you do that please explain why you disagree...

Have you looked at the deployment of 114 mtn bde in Ladakh in 1962?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby arshyam » 17 Nov 2020 08:19

kirpalbasra wrote:
ParGha wrote:


1. Higher command experience - only one Indian officer, Colonel Thimmayya, commanded a brigade in WW2 (not even Brigadier Cariappa had command experience with a brigade); Indian officers were simply neither trusted nor trained to handle higher formations by the British. Almost all ChiCom armies were commanded by Chinese in WW2, and the older generals and field-marshals would have mentored and trained the junior o

Makes me want to bang my head into a brick wall
with youre statement. WE HAD EXCELLENT GENERALS AND WELL TRAINED ARMY BLAME THE F.....G Gov of the day not the armed forces.

No ParGha saar is right. Just a cursory look at the plan for Goa's liberation will illustrate his point. At the end of the day, it was the Paras under the indomitable Brig, later Lt Gen Sagat Singh who got the job done, while the General(s), especially of the Southern Command (one of whom went on to become COAS) were busy trying to be the first to "walk in" and "liberate" Goa, by playing to an unimaginative set-piece campaign that gave plenty of time for the Portuguese to make a stand, had they had the resources to do so. This was executed under the "excellent" leadership provided by Gen Thapar, who'll go on to play a "decisive" role against the Chinese a year later. The lone general who had command experience during WW2 and the Kashmir war of '47-'48 was unceremoniously booted out by the govt earlier that year.

Net net, blame the govt all you want for the '62 debacle, but the Army didn't come off that well either. No point in ignoring that aspect and drawing the wrong lessons (which we as a country seem to do periodically).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Philip » 17 Nov 2020 09:35

Let's remember the parlous state of the Indian economy post Independence.We imported food,the " temples" of a new India,our steel plants,dams were in the works, no green revolution,white revolution,etc.,yet. After '48 and the division of J& K, things had been quiet. There was no expectation of war and an urgent need to ramp up the military.

Where we were scoring was in diplomacy with NAM, former colonies in Afro- Asia looking up to us for leadership. The new UN had been established.The Korean war was a setback,so was the Cold War frost,but we on paper at least had good relations with China. What India and the world didn't understand at the time was China and Mao's duplicity, cultural superiority complex and long term plans for first Asian then global domination. We failed to see then,as we did for decades until Galwan,that for China,there is no place for India at the intl. head table in its masterplan and that we must like it or lump it.

India now staying out of the China dominated Asian eco trading bloc is fine,but where is the India-centric foreign policy,economic,diplomatic and military? Instead of us holding onto US coat tails in QUAD-like outfits, we should be attracting other nations to our centre of gravity! We still suffer from an inferiority complex at the MEA always hoping that earlier Russia-which did come on time in '71 to prevent the US naval armada
from assisting the Pakis,to the US- to tame Pak and now to tame China,instead of steadily building up our military on a consistent basis.Under the NDA-2,the defence budget has shrunk to its lowest ever level.What we now see after Galwan are knee-jerk reactions and desperate military purchases and infra push. The services have for decades pleaded with the GOI for a consistent % of the GDP exclusively earmarked for defence,and no return on money allotted to the Fin.Min at year end when MOD babus delay
sealing deals on time. These inordinate delays and years of torture to modernise the military is the bane of the nation.

The sad truth is that the Indian politico in general has scant thought for the military's requirements,always scared of a coup because of their corrupt ways, the non-existant threat continuously poured into their ears by babudom so that the military is muzzled. The UPA never sealed the Rafale deal,delayed almost every programme,acquisition , except for some US milware kowtowing to Uncle Sam in return for the N-deal now openly acknowledged. The NDA-2 has done much better on security,scrapping Art.370,etc. ,but it could've done a lot more budgetwise. There are huge gaps in our key milware items which could've been reduced in its first term. Here too we pandered to the PRC with lavish ceremonial welcomes for its Xitler only to be royally shafted- as I repeatedly warned would happen ,which it did at Galwan.

The huge military might of China is now on full display with dire warnings from the dragon. Unless there is a definite holistic policy towards the PRC,punishing it diplomatically,militarily and economically,our piecemeal efforts will be in vain.We cannot allow a " business as usual" attitude towards the PRC,the boycotting of Chin goods,services,investment,etc. must accelerate. What is scandalous is the call from some quarters that we should allow Chin investment to kickstart the economy! After the sacrifice of the blood of our soldiers at Galwan we have this obscenity of political thought? Such treacherous compromises will only see the PRC walk all over us in the future.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby fanne » 17 Nov 2020 10:32

Gen Sagat Singh keeps on appearing everywhere to snatch victory from jaws of defeat - 1961 Goa, Sikkim front (Nathu La and Chola la) 1967, 1971 Bangladesh war (the famous and perhaps the most decisive move - crossing Meghna river to dash to Dhaka). Perhaps some great soul sent to serve Mother India in her hour of need.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby sanjayc » 17 Nov 2020 10:41

The forgotten general who never lost a war
Lt Gen Sagat Singh played a pivotal role not only in the liberation of Goa (1961) and Bangladesh (1971), but also led from the front to save Nathu La from being captured by intruding Chinese troops in 1967.

At around 1700 hours on Sunday, 17 December 1961, Governor General Manuel António Vassalo e Silva was addressing a teachers’ function at Vasco da Gama Hall in Goa, the Portuguese enclave on India’s western coast. A person walked up to him and whispered, “Sir, the Indian Army has arrived at our borders.” For a moment the Portuguese Governor General’s mind went completely blank.

The brisk Indian armed assault codenamed “Operation Vijay”, in a three-pronged advance with over 30,000 Indian troops was underway. By the early hours of Monday, 18 December, all the naval threats were effectively neutralised and the Indian Air Force achieved complete air supremacy. That day Goans woke up to the sound of explosions as the Portuguese Army blew up over thirty bridges to stall the advancing Indian Army. Hugely outnumbered the main Portuguese strength was concentrated in the capital Panjim (later Panaji). Consequently the city became the military objective of the Indian Army.

Rushing in the direction of Panjim was the Bikanerborn Rajput, Brigadier Sagat Singh along with his 50th Para brigade. The 42-yearold Brigadier was a remarkable commander who fought in the gruesome Second World War. He went on to become one-of-a-kind military mastermind that India produced. With indomitable fortitude and resolve Brigadier Sagat led the 50th Para brigade into the arena of war. Towering above everyone at six feet two inches, he had earned his “Para Wings” in record time by making four Para jumps in a span of two days, an astonishing feat at his age. The daring Brigadier ordered his men to take the smugglers route to enter Goa clandestinely. Notwithstanding the blasting of bridges, mines and culverts, the Indian troops still armed with WW-II era weapons surprised everyone. In a race against time they made a whirlwind advance against the Portuguese forces and streamed towards Panjim. On hearing the firing across the Mandovi river at Betim, the Portuguese flag in front of Palacio de Idalçao in Panjim was lowered and the white flag was hoisted to indicate surrender.

And thirty-six hours after the commencement of the operation at 0600 hours on Tuesday, 19 December, India’s 50th Para brigade crossed the river Mandovi along with the 2nd Sikh light infantry. They became the first Indian troops to enter Panjim and liberate the capital. Brigadier Sagat ordered the troops to remove their steel helmets and don their maroon berets. In the black and white archival news footage shot that day Goans can be seen waving Indian flags and welcoming the Indian soldiers. The official Portuguese surrender ceremony was conducted at 2030 hours on 19 December. Under the headlights of a car the official letter of surrender was signed by Governor General Silva and delivered to Major General K.P. Candeth. A few days later Ronald C.V.P. Noronha, an ICS officer, was transferred from Madhya Pradesh to Goa as the Chief of Civil Administration. An area of about 1,500 square miles on our western coast was reunited with India.

It was Brigadier Sagat’s audacious leadership that tilted the balance in India’s favour. Interestingly, Major General V.K. Singh in his book, Leadership in the Indian Army: Biographies of Twelve Soldiers, has recorded that Portuguese Prime Minister Antonio Salazar had announced an award of $10,000 to anyone who captured and delivered the Indian Brigadier Sagat Singh to Republica Portuguesa. Inexplicably back home the Defence Ministry of India disallowed gallantry awards for the liberation of Goa.

Six years later, on Wednesday, 6 September 1967, seventy Chinese soldiers intruded across India’s northern border south of Nathu La located at 14,200 feet in Sikkim and were challenged by 2 Grenadiers, the battalion holding the defences. Thereafter, intrusions by the Chinese were reported on a regular basis.

Since the war in the Himalayas in 1962 the relations with China were strained. In June 1967 a diplomatic fracas erupted due to Chinese belligerence. Two Indian diplomats K. Raghunath and P. Vijai were unfairly accused of espionage and sentenced to “immediate deportation” by the Peking Municipal People’s Higher Court. The Indian Minister for External Affairs Mohammadali Carim Chagla was outraged by the public humiliation of our diplomats. In those adverse circumstances Indian diplomacy matched China at every step and eventually outmanoeuvred the adversary.

Three months later, the Chinese provoked India by crossing the line at Nathu La. At that time the Eastern Command of the Indian Army, post the 1962 debacle, was hesitant to incite the Chinese. The Command issued a directive to the Indian forces to vacate the border posts. Major General Sagat Singh, the General Officer Commanding, 17th Mountain Division in charge of that border since July 1965, disagreed with the order. He had walked along the crest line himself and was of the view that Nathu La comprised the natural boundary. Reacting to the intrusion in early September 1967 he ordered the building of a fence and asked his men to vehemently defend the remote Nathu La pass come what may. The Chinese mounted loudspeakers at Nathu La, and cautioned the Indians that they would suffer as they did in 1962, if they did not withdraw. On Major General Sagat’s instructions Indian loudspeakers broadcast tape-recorded Chinese language with counter messages.

On Monday, 11 September 1967, Lieutenant Colonel Rai Singh, Commanding Officer of 2 Grenadiers, was supervising the erecting of the iron pickets from Nathu La to Sebu La along the perceived border. The Chinese Political Commissar and his men arrived and objected to the laying of the wire. Lt Colonel Rai Singh had orders not to blink. An intense argument followed and resulted in a scuffle. This escalated into medium machine gun fire by the belligerent Chinese on the Indian troops. Outnumbered the Indian troops faced overwhelming odds against a ruthless enemy. Then with fierce fire, the Indian troops launched a counter-attack on the Chinese frontier guards. According to an official note issued by Chinese Foreign Affairs, “Up till noon, the Indian aggressor troops already killed or wounded 25 Chinese frontier guards.” The note added a clear warning, “Do not misjudge the situation and repeat your mistake of 1962.” It was actually the Chinese who had underestimated the Indian reaction.

On orders from Major General Sagat the Indian Army men stood their ground in brazen defiance. The Indian Army retaliated with their weaponry, and fought brutal hand-to-hand battles at the pass. In the end Nathu La Pass remained firmly in the control of the Indian Army. A few weeks later another attack at Cho Pass, northwest of Nathu La, was similarly repulsed. The Chinese forces met more than their match and eventually backed off. The New York Times in a news report on 1 October 1967 detailed, “In the Natu pass incident, Chinese causalities were estimated unofficially as 600 and Indian losses as at least half of that.” In total 47 Gallantry awards were bestowed on the Indian troops who fought at Nathu La. Major General Sagat Singh proved to the adversary that the Indian Army was unyielding. The myth of Chinese invincibility was wrecked.

On the evening of 3 December 1971, Pakistani aircraft attacked Indian airfields. Immediately General Sam Manekshaw, the Chief of Army Staff, ordered the commanders to put into effect their operational plans. The war to liberate Bangladesh was underway.

On the sixth day of the war, Thursday, 9 December 1971, Lt General Sagat, corps commander of the IV Corps, stood on the east bank of river Meghna in East Pakistan visualising the unimaginable. At the planning stage, Lt General Sagat envisaged that the capture of Dacca (Dhaka now) was the key to winning the 1971 war. But Indian Generals remained sceptical about Dacca as a military objective since two rivers protected it. The top brass in the operations room were impressed with Lt General Sagat’s daredevil capturing of towns and he had kept the enemy off-balance. He was credited for capturing Chandpur single-handedly. For his bosses his role in the War of 1971 was over.

On that very cold winter morning of 9 December, Lt General Sagat thought otherwise. From his perspective the only thing that stood between the Indian Army and absolute victory was the 4,000 feet wide Meghna river. The Pakistan Army had strategically destroyed the Ashuganj link the solitary bridge that spanned one of the broadest rivers in the region.

Boarding an Indian Air Force helicopter Lt General Sagat undertook a dangerous reconnaissance mission. Over Bhiarab Bazar his chopper was targeted by very accurate machine gun fire by the Pakistani troops. Bullets narrowly missed Lt General Sagat’s forehead. The main windshield shattered and the splintering glass injured him. The pilot received serious bullet wounds. The copilot managed to return to base despite sixty-five hits. The Army doctors dressing Lt General’s arm and forehead insisted that he take rest for twenty-four hours before resuming command. But the Lt General who had narrowly escaped death many times before immediately embarked on another mission in a chopper and returned to lead his men into the battlefield. Then in an astounding “helibourne operation” Lt General Sagat accomplished the impossible. Under his command on the night of 9-10 December, the squad of brave pilots of the fourteen IAF Mi4 choppers flew 110 sorties. Using the element of surprise Group Captain Chandan Singh magnificently airlifted the entire 311 Brigade with 23 troops in each flight. Simultaneously, 73rd Brigade moved across Meghna on boats and riverine crafts.

The next day USS Enterprise and the US Seventh Fleet were poised to enter the Bay of Bengal. At that crucial time, Lt General Sagat, with 3,000 troops and forty tonnes of equipment and heavy guns, was strategically positioned on the western bank of the mighty Meghna. Ahead of them lay the gates of fortress Dacca and the road to victory. The message that Lt General Sagat and his men had reached the other side of Megna was delivered in the office of the Prime Minister of India in distant New Delhi. It has been recorded that on hearing the news, Indira Gandhi beaming with joy and with wind in her hair ran across the corridor of her office. The Prime Minister personally commended Lt General Sagat and sent congratulatory messages to the Indian forces now racing towards Dacca.

Few notable moments can change the outcome of any war. The crossing of the Meghna by the Indian Air Force and Army was the most important and decisive operation in the Bangladesh War. The dare and dash initiative of the field commander that smashed its way through the pride of the Pakistani Army was a major factor in India’s triumphant march towards Dacca.

On the 12th day of the war the first artillery shell of the Indian Army fell inside the Dacca cantonment. Pakistan’s Marshal Law Administrator Lt General Abdullah Khan Niazi, the man behind the “impregnable fortress Dacca strategy”, had in an impromptu press conference at Dacca airport promised to fight to the “last man, last round”. But within hours Lt General Niazi reached the breaking point.

On Thursday, 16 December 1971, a date that will live in infamy in Pakistan, a supremely confident Lt General Sagat was introduced to the grim faced Lt General Niazi at the Race Course in Dacca. The Pakistani commander is reported to have exclaimed in admiration, “Oh my God, you accomplished the inconceivable.”

At 1631 hours, on the darkest day in Pakistan’s history, Lt General Niazi borrowed a pen from Surojit Sen of All India Radio and signed five copies of the Instrument of Surrender. Lt General Jagjit Singh Arora accepted the surrender on behalf of India. No words were exchanged. There was nothing left to be said. That Instrument of Surrender was the first and the only public surrender in world history. Simultaneously 93,000 Pakistani officers, soldiers, civilian officials, and allies laid down their arms. This was a feat unparalleled in the annals of warfare. It was the fastest successful military campaigns of modern times and the swiftest liberation of a nation ever.

This was a defining moment in modern India’s history.

In the celebrated blackand-white photograph of that evening, the strikingly handsome Lt General Sagat Singh can be seen standing directly behind Lt General Niazi and between Vice Admiral N. Krishnan, Air Marshal H.C. Dewan and Lt General Jack Jacob.

In 1972, Lt General Sagat Singh, PVSM, was awarded the Padma Bhushan and in March 2013 the Government of Bangladesh acknowledged his achievements. After retirement from the Indian Army he settled down in Jaipur and appropriately named his house “Meghna”. On 26 September 2001, thirty years after ensuring the victory in the Bangladesh War, our nation’s war hero who changed the history and geography of India breathed his last.

Lt General Sagat Singh, PVSM, Padma Bhushan (14 July 1919 to 26 September 2001), arguably the greatest combat general of the contemporary world, was a remarkable Indian. An effort should be undertaken by the Government of India to include his wartime exploits in school textbooks. And finally on the eve of the golden anniversary of the Bangladesh War this outstanding combat leader is the right candidate for the Bharat Ratna.


https://thedailyguardian.com/the-forgot ... ost-a-war/

Philip
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Posts: 21060
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Philip » 17 Nov 2020 11:29

Only one word to describe his achievements...Magnificent! You can scan the contours of ancient history from ancient Greece,Rome,the two world wars and find few equivalents.He had shades of Rommel,Skorzeny,Hannibal, et al in his blood!

PS:There is a report in the UK Daily Express about a Chin boast that they used terrifying new weapons" against our troops in Ladakh.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/13 ... rowave-ont

Xcpts:
WW3: China uses terrifying new weapons against Indian forces in bitter military stand-off
CHINA has used microwave weapons to push back Indian forces during a military stand-off in the Himalayas.

Now, a Beijing-based international relations expert has claimed China has made use of highly-focussed beams of radiation in order to drive away Indian forces.The weapons reportedly make use of microwave pulses which can cause pain and discomfort to human targets.
Use of such weapons have been seen by analysts as a way around using conventional weaponry such as guns.
The use of guns and explosives is banned on the disputed border following an agreement between India and China in 1996.
Jin Canrong, a professor of international relations at Beijing’s Renmin University, made the claim of microwave weapons use in a lecture, The Times has reported.

He described how China’s People’s Liberation Army “beautifully” gained territory in two strategic hilltops that had been occupied by Indian forces without an exchange of gunfire.
The professor added: “We didn’t publicise it because we solved the problem beautifully.” In contrast, he claimed India “lost miserably”.
Mr Jin said Chinese forces had deployed the microwave weapons to the bottom of the hills and aimed them at the peaks.
He claimed Indian forces on the hilltops began to “vomit” as a result of the microwave beams within 15 minutes and subsequently retreated.
The Times reports this may be the first time such weapons have been used ‘against hostile troops’.
Other countries such as the United States have used electromagnetic radiation weapons before.
They use high-energy beams of radiation which are capable of harming humans but also destroying electronics or missile systems.
Such weapons have been referred to as ‘direct energy’ weapons. Some, instead of using electromagnetic radiation, use sound waves.
There is much speculation of such weapons having been used before, though usually against diplomats in foreign nations.
One sceptic, Robert Bartholomew, a medical sociologist at the University of Auckland in New Zealand, told Australia’s ABC News ‘it’s just science fiction’.

PPS:It appears that the aptly named Chin "expert",Mr.Jin,has been imbibing more than he can hold of the similar sounding delightful aperitif!
Perhaps he should mix his "ginning" with Indian tonic water to get a grasp of the reality of the situ.India never "
"lost miserably",neither did we lose the ridges we secured looking down upon the Chin vermin,and if we had "lost",why are the Chins howling about our troops first descending from our ridge vantage points in de-escalation? However,if these scum-of-scum did indeed try some MW weaponry against our troops,the next time it occurs we must give them a full dose of regular weaponry and take out Chin losers in their hundreds.


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