India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Kashi » 25 Nov 2020 17:58

Deans wrote:1. Do what we are allowed to under Indus water treaty. Help Afghanistan negotiate a similar treaty with Pak, to reduce water flowing into Pak.


Seems like policy-makers are moving in a closely aligned direction

India’s plan to build dam to aid Afghanistan likely to unnerve Pakistan

TNN | Nov 25, 2020
NEW DELHI:
..
Foreign minister S Jaishankar announced at the Geneva donors conference, “India had just concluded with Afghanistan an agreement for construction of Shahtoot Dam, which would provide safe drinking water to 2 million residents of Kabul city.”
...
“I am happy to learn of India's commitment on constructing the Shahtoot Dam on Kabul river. It is essential for drinking water supplies to Kabul which is staring at serious water shortage. We started a conversation on this in 2016. We should, together with Afghan partners, expedite work on this project for which basic ground work has been done,” former ambassador to Afghanistan Amar Sinha said.

MEA spokesperson Anurag Srivastava said, “The minister also announced launch of Phase-IV of high impact community development projects in Afghanistan, which envisage more than 100 projects worth $80 million that India will undertake in Afghanistan.” The high impact small development projects have shown to have very high levels of popular support and participation. Started in Afghanistan, India has now replicated this template in other neighbouring countries as well.

In his response, Afghan President Ashraf Ghani said, “I’d like to thank India and Iran for the Chabahar corridor and the related sea as well as air corridor.”

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Vidur » 25 Nov 2020 18:04

Cyrano wrote:
Vidur wrote:Even 3 years later I would not be in a position to make the statements I made in the previous post. Window is now.


Vidur ji,
I'm trying to read together your earlier comment about the leadership in the forces being risk averse and the comment above. The only third ingredient is the decision making by the Govt leadership. How do you see their appetite for a kinetic resolution of the Pak problem in the near term?


Not much

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 25 Nov 2020 20:26

shyamd wrote:It looks like the armed forces did indeed conduct deeper strikes across the border.


Could you elaborate? There was some yes-no about some action on Nov 13. All very grey.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ParGha » 25 Nov 2020 20:33

Vidur wrote:''War is not a excel spreadsheet comparison of numbers as is seen on TV channels. It is ability to bring force to bear at right place taking full advantage of geography'' - Indian Military friends. It was illuminating for me as well when I first saw these concepts.


Your Indian Army friends are generalizing "maneuver-warfare" as "war". It is understandable, but incomplete.

Marshal Tukhachevsky argues that for an economically weak country at low-end of industrialization (like India), "maneuver-warfare" is the best way to conclude a war quickly because the economy cannot sustain a long war. General Svechin argues that a large and populous country (like India) should play to its natural strengths, and be prepared to outfight and outlast a technically-superior enemy in a long "attrition-warfare". The synthesis of Tukhachevsky's thesis and Svechin's anti-thesis is that the first few battles of a campaign can be fast-and-fluid, but ultimately it would come down to a war of attrition.

What your friends say about the Clausewitzian economy-of-force (bring force to bear at right place taking full advantage of geography) is a narrow operational application. It does not illuminate much about the broader strategic environment where military operates.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby SSridhar » 25 Nov 2020 21:37

The continuing tests of BrahMos off A&N, the Ex. Malabar on both seaboards, the earlier Passex with USS Nimitz near Malacca Straits all convey significant meaning, IMO.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby chetak » 25 Nov 2020 21:56

a_bharat wrote:
sreerudra wrote:Remember Mumbai attacks? They didn't care to hand off Hadley guy. They don't really care.


That's a funny way of putting it. They were careful to not hand over Headley to cover their own role in terrorism against India.


Especially when they could have warned us but did not. Their deep state preferred to sacrifice a few amerikis rather than reveal some of their own operations in India

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby chetak » 25 Nov 2020 22:07

Deans wrote:
1. Do what we are allowed to under Indus water treaty. Help Afghanistan negotiate a similar treaty with Pak, to reduce water flowing into Pak.


The IWT has held because of India's military capability that has helped to buttress the sharp focus that India has maintained on the dam building and water diversion schemes that have actively hurt the pakis.

We also have the legal and technical firepower that out guns those on the paki side

the afghans lack this backing, as well as, the experts required to fight off legal/technical challenges during arbitration proceedings.

Any IWT like afghan pak agreement will soon be overun/ignored by the taqiya pakis, maybe even up to the point of deliberately damaging the dam infrastructure.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby shyamd » 25 Nov 2020 22:22

Prem Kumar wrote:
shyamd wrote:It looks like the armed forces did indeed conduct deeper strikes across the border.

Could you elaborate? There was some yes-no about some action on Nov 13. All very grey.

Action took place, decision at highest levels not to go public with it hence the DGMO statement denying action. Only reason I posted is because GOI recognise some things have been made public already.

In my earlier post which I quoted, I was alluding that just arty strikes alone is not going to strategically deter TSPA from sending terrorists. this was clearly the IA op to strategically send a message to TSPA. Worth reading some of my previous posts to understand the story. I suspect GOI want to keep the action relatively quiet because they don't want to escalate.
Last edited by shyamd on 25 Nov 2020 22:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby hnair » 25 Nov 2020 22:32

SSridhar wrote:The continuing tests of BrahMos off A&N, the Ex. Malabar on both seaboards, the earlier Passex with USS Nimitz near Malacca Straits all convey significant meaning, IMO.


Indeed. Not to mention the blinding speed with which Sea Guardians were leased and operated (probably by contractors) off Bay of Bengal.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby jamwal » 25 Nov 2020 23:22

As far as Headley is concerned, Indian investigative agencies were instructed by "secular" politicians in power to underplay Paki hand and put more attention on their pet project of so called saffron terrorism. It's mentioned in some detail in book Myth of Hindu Terror.

US was not exactly very cooperative, but the investigations were partially sabotaged from within UPA government by Diggy and his frands in police, one of whom died in same attack.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby csharma » 26 Nov 2020 01:14

All this talk of sending messages is not very meaningful. It has not changed Chinese behavior one bit.
Well one thing is for sure, PLA has not attacked so far. From their point of view, it does look a little odd that they are in a stalemate and not winning easily.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby kit » 26 Nov 2020 02:13

hnair wrote:
SSridhar wrote:The continuing tests of BrahMos off A&N, the Ex. Malabar on both seaboards, the earlier Passex with USS Nimitz near Malacca Straits all convey significant meaning, IMO.


Indeed. Not to mention the blinding speed with which Sea Guardians were leased and operated (probably by contractors) off Bay of Bengal.


Curious though , the IN operates Poseidons and the IAI Herons as well for round the clock surveillance. What new capability does the Sea guardians bring into play other than plugging into uncles plug and play sensor/shooter network

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby SSridhar » 26 Nov 2020 08:00

Deans wrote:1. Do what we are allowed to under Indus water treaty. Help Afghanistan negotiate a similar treaty with Pak, to reduce water flowing into Pak.

Afghanistan must not enter into any such treaty with the lower riparian Pakistan. China refuses to have such treaties over Salween, Mekong etc. With great difficulty, we managed to get flood level details on the Brahmaputra only since 2007. Whenever asked about a Treaty, China gives a one-line answer, "We are a responsible country". That's it.

The flow in the Kabul River, a tributary of the Indus is 27 MAF (Million Acre Feet), which is approximately 25% of the total flow of the Indus.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Yagnasri » 26 Nov 2020 09:05

@Vidurji,

It is good to know we are in good position weapons, systems, logistics etc wise in any two-front war. But I feel the real fight that can give us a massive advantage in any conflict is going to take place in the South i.e. on the seas. It is here we are not investing much to counter the massive naval build-up of China. Our Capital investment is very low in the Navy ( and also in IA and IAF for that matter).

Secondly, I think our aim of fighting a defensive war with China in case of a two-front war will not be useful to stop the long term threat of China which is investing heavily in their forces. If we continue with the low budget and consequently low capital investment in our forces, this disparity will continue to grow and may prove to be very dangerous to us.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RajaRudra » 26 Nov 2020 12:51

With winter settling in, the chance of hot LAC is less for atleast 3 to 4 months.
May be its time for us to do some visible material degradation of war fighting capability to our beloved western entity through some border skirmishes.

That will make sure, the chance of the western entity joining with cheenis in the upcoming summer border skirmish that chinese are preparing for, with us a little less.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby a_bharat » 26 Nov 2020 17:50

I would like to understand the pros and cons of revoking MFN to China.

China might challenge the revocation, but there is apparently a "war-time or other emergency in international relations” provision for this. India used it last year against Pak (which never reciprocated in the first place).

One would argue that revoking MFN and imposing impossible tariff barriers would make Indian industries even less competitive due to not having cheap inputs from China. But, I think this is necessary for self-reliance and Indian industries should find/create domestic sources.

I would love to see all the Chinese junk and mobile phones off Indian market.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Yagnasri » 26 Nov 2020 17:59

The best way would be to tax imports from China. Makes our companies more competitive and will stop exports without violating any law. I am sure we can find a lot of loopholes in the WTO provisions.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Deans » 26 Nov 2020 19:03

chetak wrote:
Deans wrote:
1. Do what we are allowed to under Indus water treaty. Help Afghanistan negotiate a similar treaty with Pak, to reduce water flowing into Pak.


The IWT has held because of India's military capability that has helped to buttress the sharp focus that India has maintained on the dam building and water diversion schemes that have actively hurt the pakis.

We also have the legal and technical firepower that out guns those on the paki side

the afghans lack this backing, as well as, the experts required to fight off legal/technical challenges during arbitration proceedings.

Any IWT like afghan pak agreement will soon be overun/ignored by the taqiya pakis, maybe even up to the point of deliberately damaging the dam infrastructure.


The IWT has held. because we, as the country where the rivers flow from, has never bothered to review it.
Secondly, we are not getting what we are entitled to, because of our inefficiency (resulting in leakage of water from Punjab, shortages of water and power and J&K, unilaterally halting the Tulbul barrage etc.
You are right in suggesting Afghanistan alone cannot negotiate a treaty, but India can (on their behalf) and must - after starting work on dams controlling the flow of water from Afghanistan to Pak. Building dams also gives the Afghan Govt the excuse to invite us in to protect dam infrastructure.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Deans » 26 Nov 2020 19:13

a_bharat wrote:I would like to understand the pros and cons of revoking MFN to China.

China might challenge the revocation, but there is apparently a "war-time or other emergency in international relations” provision for this. India used it last year against Pak (which never reciprocated in the first place).

One would argue that revoking MFN and imposing impossible tariff barriers would make Indian industries even less competitive due to not having cheap inputs from China. But, I think this is necessary for self-reliance and Indian industries should find/create domestic sources.

I would love to see all the Chinese junk and mobile phones off Indian market.


There are several things we can do short of revoking MFN (which is not desirable). We have started taking baby steps. For e.g.
- PSU & Govt companies cannot buy from any country which has a national security threat to India.
- Other large private sectory companies `encouraged' not to buy Chinese.
- Ditto for business in sectors critical to national security (e.g. telecom, or anything where data MAY be stored abroad or shared e.g mobiles).
- We MAY disallow companies doing business with organizations designated as terrorist entities (e.g. Pak army and Fauji foundation), or operating in Indian territory (POK) from doing business in India. Our babus love case by case permissions.
- Special import duty (defence levy) on countries who have illegally occupied our territory.
- Floor price on all imports (to prevent rampant under-invoicing).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby chetak » 26 Nov 2020 21:10

Deans wrote:
chetak wrote:
The IWT has held because of India's military capability that has helped to buttress the sharp focus that India has maintained on the dam building and water diversion schemes that have actively hurt the pakis.

We also have the legal and technical firepower that out guns those on the paki side

the afghans lack this backing, as well as, the experts required to fight off legal/technical challenges during arbitration proceedings.

Any IWT like afghan pak agreement will soon be overun/ignored by the taqiya pakis, maybe even up to the point of deliberately damaging the dam infrastructure.


The IWT has held. because we, as the country where the rivers flow from, has never bothered to review it.
Secondly, we are not getting what we are entitled to, because of our inefficiency (resulting in leakage of water from Punjab, shortages of water and power and J&K, unilaterally halting the Tulbul barrage etc.
You are right in suggesting Afghanistan alone cannot negotiate a treaty, but India can (on their behalf) and must - after starting work on dams controlling the flow of water from Afghanistan to Pak. Building dams also gives the Afghan Govt the excuse to invite us in to protect dam infrastructure.


we seem to have slightly different takes on the issue.

one however fears being sucked into the entire afghan mess with disastrous consequences for India.

It's best that we have no Indian boots on the ground in afghanistan because there will be an immediate BIF funded blowback on own internal security situation.

Also, we have limited access to afghanistan for logistics support while others including china, pakis and iran have an almost unrestricted access to that country and none of these guys can be trusted.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Cain Marko » 27 Nov 2020 01:09

^here I will beg to differ with you saar. India should not be timid about boys on ground in an area that is traditionally it's playground. It has certain crucial advantages:
1. Takes the pressure off Kashmir
2. Gives tspa real problem
3. Wars should be fought as far away from the homeland as possible, as great nations have always done.
4 gives India a chance to be a player in central asia.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 27 Nov 2020 01:38

There has been 3 causalities today. If the Nagrota attackers were not killed, we might have had more attacks on the day of 26/11.

Pak seems to be trying to hard to force India to mount an open response. There will probably be increased losses on LC & J&K. Might be another major terror attack.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby sudeepj » 27 Nov 2020 12:22

nam wrote:There has been 3 causalities today. If the Nagrota attackers were not killed, we might have had more attacks on the day of 26/11.

Pak seems to be trying to hard to force India to mount an open response. There will probably be increased losses on LC & J&K. Might be another major terror attack.


Cant blame the jihadis for not trying! Something in the strategic calculus changed, i.e. the India-China standoff and the new administration in the US, they will try something. Baby steps first, then full monty. I think the 'something' that happened at the border means the Modi govt. is on top of it and making sure our red lines are emphasized even more. The public silence, even secrecy, means they dont want it to escalate beyond their chosen point.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby jamwal » 27 Nov 2020 12:31

Image
Image
Image

Chinese soldiers are being given oxygen daily and spending nights in pressure chambers just for survival. Even then, 1-2 die daily.

General acclimatisation begins with 7-10 days at 2500-3000 meters, then they go higher gradually or can be sent directly to places near 4500 m high. Almost any soldier healthy enough to be in army should be able to live normally without pressure chambers and extra oxygen in a 10-12 days at most.
Even I've been to higher places than this carrying 8-10 kg for 7-8 hours everyday. What kind of people are they inducting in PLA?

Is this just pysops showing that CCP cares a lot about lowly conscripted PLA grunts or are these Hans really this weak?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby darshhan » 27 Nov 2020 12:31

With respect to Indian Mil presence in Afghanistan, yes we should have boots on the ground in Afghanistan. But the path to Afghanistan should go through Pakistan. First Conquer Pakistan, and only then we should stabilise Afghanistan

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby rajpa » 27 Nov 2020 12:46

jamwal wrote:Image
Image
Image

Chinese soldiers are being given oxygen daily and spending nights in pressure chambers just for survival. Even then, 1-2 die daily.

General acclimatisation begins with 7-10 days at 2500-3000 meters, then they go higher gradually or can be sent directly to places near 4500 m high. Almost any soldier healthy enough to be in army should be able to live normally without pressure chambers and extra oxygen in a 10-12 days at most.
Even I've been to higher places than this carrying 8-10 kg for 7-8 hours everyday. What kind of people are they inducting in PLA?

Is this just pysops showing that CCP cares a lot about lowly conscripted PLA grunts or are these Hans really this weak?

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Master Bates Li surfing p0rn needs a lot more O2 to survive. You can see him pretending to read some empty pages with a smuff book hidden inside.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Vidur » 27 Nov 2020 13:42

Yagnasri wrote:@Vidurji,

It is good to know we are in good position weapons, systems, logistics etc wise in any two-front war. But I feel the real fight that can give us a massive advantage in any conflict is going to take place in the South i.e. on the seas. It is here we are not investing much to counter the massive naval build-up of China. Our Capital investment is very low in the Navy ( and also in IA and IAF for that matter).

Secondly, I think our aim of fighting a defensive war with China in case of a two-front war will not be useful to stop the long term threat of China which is investing heavily in their forces. If we continue with the low budget and consequently low capital investment in our forces, this disparity will continue to grow and may prove to be very dangerous to us.


Yes, defence of India the mandate of the Def Secy will ne impossible in a few years. I dont see anything changing on budgetary, procurement rules, defence production fronts.

That's why I don't buy the logic of waiting for a few years to build our muscles. Our muscles will not build, they will atrophy. Window is now

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Pashupatastra » 27 Nov 2020 14:55

Meanwhile 2 more bravehearts attained veergati at LoC today . IMHO Indian establishments have preferred this "No War , No peace" only "Insurgency" mode since 1989. Had Pakistan not foisted Kargil war in 1999 , we would still be celebrating the laurels earned for bold action in 1971. Even the attack on Parliament in 2001 led to an ineffective long deployment depleting valuable billions. I think the fear of collateral damage from all out war will keep taking valuable lives in single , double digits for foreseeable future till someone like Gen Sundar jee decides to precipitate matters and burns all bridges to cut off option of retreat.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Yagnasri » 27 Nov 2020 15:44

Vidur wrote:That's why I don't buy the logic of waiting for a few years to build our muscles. Our muscles will not build, they will atrophy. Window is now


A few years back China has no carriers. Now they are talking about having 6. They are turning over ships and subs like pancakes. Now we talk talking about the low levels of training, lack of experience and low morale of the Chinese. It may not take long for them to train and bring morale up. In the meanwhile, we take a dozen years to buy/make minesweepers or missile boats. No efforts to increase funding.

I failed to understand why there is no seriousness or urgency at the higher levels of defence management.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 27 Nov 2020 17:07

2 more loss on LoC today.

Pak is dragging us in to a response.

We got to carry out PGM strikes on Pak artillery and positions, with video feed. Something which PA cannot deny.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 27 Nov 2020 18:23

I also don't buy into this "Lets hit Pak hard but not talk about it" philosophy. I understand the reason (if we don't talk about it, Pakis don't have pressure to react), but don't agree.

Our goal is the dismemberment of Pakistan. For that, a "new norm" should be set in people's minds that India is a much bigger boy than Pakistan and they can never match up to us. That we will continue to hammer them into submission & servility. People on all sides will need to internalize this by the repeated stories of our success and their failure. This should also be internalized by the Ummah as a failure of Dar-ul-Islam and a success of Hindustan.

So, we should systematically cull Pakis and publicize it in a matter-of-fact manner. Example: we should kill 20 Pakis and publicly declare that our Jawans at the LoC have been avenged. We owe it to their mothers & wives.

If they react, we will hit them 10X harder and then publicize that!

Hitting them and being silent is not Chanakian'ess. It reflects a lack of self-confidence & clarity in objectives. It signals that our own H&D is not important.

I want to hear about our successful missions from the MoD, Chinar Corps etc, not from Dr. APR.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby darshhan » 27 Nov 2020 19:49

Prem Kumar wrote:I also don't buy into this "Lets hit Pak hard but not talk about it" philosophy. I understand the reason (if we don't talk about it, Pakis don't have pressure to react), but don't agree.

Our goal is the dismemberment of Pakistan. For that, a "new norm" should be set in people's minds that India is a much bigger boy than Pakistan and they can never match up to us. That we will continue to hammer them into submission & servility. People on all sides will need to internalize this by the repeated stories of our success and their failure. This should also be internalized by the Ummah as a failure of Dar-ul-Islam and a success of Hindustan.

So, we should systematically cull Pakis and publicize it in a matter-of-fact manner. Example: we should kill 20 Pakis and publicly declare that our Jawans at the LoC have been avenged. We owe it to their mothers & wives.

If they react, we will hit them 10X harder and then publicize that!

Hitting them and being silent is not Chanakian'ess. It reflects a lack of self-confidence & clarity in objectives. It signals that our own H&D is not important.

I want to hear about our successful missions from the MoD, Chinar Corps etc, not from Dr. APR.


Agree completely. We are way beyond the level of " only covert options ". No need to play hide and seek anymore.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Aditya_V » 27 Nov 2020 21:46

Sorry, it's not only pressure but the way most media is, our actions are either escallatory if we show proof or lies if we don't show proof. Pakis play this no proof of action hence Indians are liars with BBC Al Jazeera etc. playing fiddle, so let's keep hitting them harder and harder. This media evidence etc let's leave it. Unless we do something really dramatic no point showing it.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 27 Nov 2020 23:01

No one bought the "show us proof" nonsense that RaGa was trying to pull. The average Indian family trusts our Armed Forces even more than they trust Modi.

So, we don't need to give two-hoots about anyone who asks for proof. An SOP can be established regarding how these kinds of news shall be communicated officially. Its not rocket science.

The war is larger

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Deans » 28 Nov 2020 09:40

chetak wrote:
Deans wrote:
The IWT has held. because we, as the country where the rivers flow from, has never bothered to review it.
Secondly, we are not getting what we are entitled to, because of our inefficiency (resulting in leakage of water from Punjab, shortages of water and power and J&K, unilaterally halting the Tulbul barrage etc.
You are right in suggesting Afghanistan alone cannot negotiate a treaty, but India can (on their behalf) and must - after starting work on dams controlling the flow of water from Afghanistan to Pak. Building dams also gives the Afghan Govt the excuse to invite us in to protect dam infrastructure.


we seem to have slightly different takes on the issue.

one however fears being sucked into the entire afghan mess with disastrous consequences for India.
It's best that we have no Indian boots on the ground in afghanistan because there will be an immediate BIF funded blowback on own internal security situation.
Also, we have limited access to afghanistan for logistics support while others including china, pakis and iran have an almost unrestricted access to that country and none of these guys can be trusted.


Chetak ji, I Don't think we really disagree. Putting boots in the ground in Afghanistan has the advantages that Cain Marko suggests in the next post.
However, I share your concerns. My point is that we have already built a dam in Afghanistan and are collaborating on others. Our support can be extended to helping Afghanistan negotiate an equitable treaty. If we send a security force, it is with the invitation of the Afghan govt and to protect THEIR infrastructure, not to bring democracy to it, nation building, or whatever it is the West does. With a Biden administration, I don't think there would be a serious objection to our using Chabahar and the road and rail link we have built, to transport infrastructure & material etc to Afghanistan through Iran (along with logistical support for a small infra protection force). It can even get UN sanction.
Even a small force can cause serious discomfort in Pak and force them to reconsider where their military assets are deployed - particularly if for e.g we have an agreement for the IAF to maintain Afghan aircraft or deploy our own aircraft (purely for development work).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 28 Nov 2020 15:12

India should fund building the dam. Once the dam is done, even the Taliban cannot destroy it and flood downstream Pak.

Instead of regular boots on ground or IAF jets, we should deploy armed Rustom drones to provide air support to Afghan forces. It is enough to turn the tide in any battle with Taliban. In terms of men in ops, it should be spec ops only.

Transfer 105MM IFG and T72 to Afghan forces.

We need cheap armed drones. Need Rustom 2 armed version asap.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby V_Raman » 28 Nov 2020 15:39

And we will pilot those drones from a nondescript building in chennai :twisted:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Cyrano » 28 Nov 2020 16:19

Agree Cain Marko and Deans.

Putting forces in and around AF for specific objectives in a calibrated manner will add to the experience of all three forces, CDS structure and beyond, and help us come out of "purely defensive" mindset that exists at various levels in the forces and policy makers. UNPK missions are not the same thing. We need to build new capabilities to be able de defend India's expanding zones of interest on the globe, if we aim to be in the UNSC and play an active role as an important power in the future.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby chetak » 28 Nov 2020 18:26

Deans wrote:
chetak wrote:
we seem to have slightly different takes on the issue.

one however fears being sucked into the entire afghan mess with disastrous consequences for India.
It's best that we have no Indian boots on the ground in afghanistan because there will be an immediate BIF funded blowback on own internal security situation.
Also, we have limited access to afghanistan for logistics support while others including china, pakis and iran have an almost unrestricted access to that country and none of these guys can be trusted.


Chetak ji, I Don't think we really disagree. Putting boots in the ground in Afghanistan has the advantages that Cain Marko suggests in the next post.
However, I share your concerns. My point is that we have already built a dam in Afghanistan and are collaborating on others. Our support can be extended to helping Afghanistan negotiate an equitable treaty. If we send a security force, it is with the invitation of the Afghan govt and to protect THEIR infrastructure, not to bring democracy to it, nation building, or whatever it is the West does. With a Biden administration, I don't think there would be a serious objection to our using Chabahar and the road and rail link we have built, to transport infrastructure & material etc to Afghanistan through Iran (along with logistical support for a small infra protection force). It can even get UN sanction.
Even a small force can cause serious discomfort in Pak and force them to reconsider where their military assets are deployed - particularly if for e.g we have an agreement for the IAF to maintain Afghan aircraft or deploy our own aircraft (purely for development work).


Deans saar,

my principal concern is that if and when push comes to shove, iran may not weigh in on our side, thus negating any advantages we may be wishfully perceiving in chabahar port, UN sanction to the contrary notwithstanding.

they seem to have cleverly used our impatience to access central asian countries to get themselves free infrastructure paid for and built by us and we have foolishly fallen for crap like "ancient civilizational ties" forgetting that they were once among the invaders of India and their sense of superiority has never really gone away from their cultural perception of India as a country of inferior peoples.

their attitude towards us has always been overbearing, with more than a hint of bullying.

at the end of the day, and with no qualms whatsoever, they have aligned themselves with sunni pakis and turkis to berate India on cashmere.

ummah is as ummah does.

also, not to mention, their hopes of getting any nuclear tech from India went up in smoke a long time ago, adding further to their anguish and general dissatisfaction with us.

iran's disdainful and constant taunts about India weakly succumbing to the US sanctions and not aiding them in breaking the oil embargo never did explain why India would/should poke the ameriki bear for a few barrels of waxy third grade iranian crude.

both countries, iran and turki are prostrating before the pakis and the hans hoping to be thrown some nuclear crumbs so these two paranoid countries can evolve into dominating regional monsters, each with their own grandiose visions of global ummah leadership

chetak
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby chetak » 28 Nov 2020 20:42

Hawala network worth Rs 1000 crore operated by China unearthed by the Ministry of Home Affairs



Hawala network worth Rs 1000 crore operated by China unearthed by the Ministry of Home Affairs


28 November, 2020
OpIndia Staff


A Hawala ring worth Rs1000 crore reportedly being run by the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) of China has been traced by the Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA). According to Times Now, the Chinese agents were receiving assistance from deep-rooted Pakistani spy ring to establish their networks in India.


Earlier in 2018, Delhi police had arrested a person named Luo Sang, aka Charlie Peng, who was suspected to be an agent of Chinese intelligence, the Ministry of State Security (MSS), on the charges of espionage.

Chinese agent Luo Sang had faked Indian identity

In the major crackdown on the Hawala racket operating in Delhi-NCR, it was revealed that that Sang had created fake Indian identity of Charlie Peng through forged Aadhaar cards and travel documents. According to the report, he was first sent to Nepal where he received training in money exchange, hawala operations and accounts after which he came to India. Sang was reportedly collecting information on whereabouts of important Tibetan refugees and people close to Dalai Lama in India.

Sang had married an Indian woman in Manipur
In September 2018, when Sang was arrested by a Special Cell of Delhi police on allegations of running a spy network in India, forged Indian passport was recovered from his possession that he had procured from Manipur. Sang revealed during interrogation that he had entered India in 2013 and settled in Manipur. He told that he married an Indian woman in Manipur and the couple had rented an accommodation where they lived a few years before moving to Delhi.

It was revealed during the investigation that Sang had created over 40 bank accounts linked to multiple shell companies. The hawala operations were linked to transactions of more than Rs 1000 crore. China-Pakistan nexus has been a serious concern for India. This year in June, the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) said that it was strengthening its maritime intelligence network with increased focus on the Arabian Sea region to counter the increasing influence of China-Pakistan nexus in the Indian Ocean.


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