India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

[fanne]

The Chinese now showing off the speed of moving their heavy equipment. 100 Tanks taken back within 8 hours.

A loosing party may not get anything. The chinis conclusively lost this round.

[Varuna]

Any idea if we can monitor the area now for any tunnels that the chinis might have dug there. There were some reports a while ago about tunnels ( https://swarajyamag.com/insta/chinese-a ... -of-ladakh )

[Philip]

At a tangent,but part of the PRC's great game,a large Chinko spy network in Kabul with Afghans on their payroll was busted by Afghan intel.,with alleged input from our side. This cell had links to the Haqqani network and were trying to set up a feku Uighar terror group too.
The key Chinko Xu, who said he " hated India", was caught pants down with arms,cash and drugs. The gang of spies numbering around 10+ say some reports, were deported back to the PRC.

What is also evident is that these Chinkos with their Haq links,may have been responsible for the bounties offered for killing US troops and " contractors". The Trump admin. mentioned this but gave no names. The Ladakh gambit by the PRC and the nefarious goings on in Kabul, Pak ,Burma-the coup,and in Sri Lanka, indicate that recent synchronised events are all part of the larger gameplan of the PRC to tighten the ring of steel being established
around India using every means,military, diplomatic,economic,religious- attempts to control Tibetan Buddhism ,all over the IOR littoral.
Ladakh and the Himalayan gambit are also a means to divert our attention and resources from the maritime domain,well knowing that against the PRC,it is our strongest asset, but we are handicapped with limited resources to match even in part the massive build-up of the PLAN,now the largest navy in the world

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 40835?s=20 ---> India does not recognize the Chinese 1959 claim line (this puts damp water on claims of amateurs analysts that India accepted 1959 line) says Northern Army commander. Adds Depsang is not related to current standoff but is a legacy issue.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 87040?s=20 ---> China realized India was not going to budge, so it had to relent, says Northern Army commander Lt Gen YK Joshi. Adds currently 90,000 Indian Army troops deployed in Ladakh.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 55338?s=20 ---> A war was averted on 30 August 2020, on LAC. Situation was on the brink, says GoC-in-C of Indian Army's Northern Command, Lt Gen YK Joshi.

[sivab]

Full interview with Northern Army Commander.

Transcript of interview.
https://bharatshakti.in/northern-army-c ... we-ceding/

[sivab]

Another interview with NAC. See link for video.

https://twitter.com/CNNnews18/status/13 ... 6911475712

@shreyadhoundial
: At any point in time, did you think this cld blow up into an armed conflict [with China]?

India's Northern Army Commander says yes. Talks of "very tense" moment in August. Says "a war was actually averted. We were on the edge. We were absolutely on the brink."

Northern Army Commander: "When [the gunner] see the adversary's tank coming into the crosshairs, the easiest thing for him to do...is pull the trigger...But the most difficult thing which needs courage is not to open fire, not to press the trigger"

Timing was on Aug. 31 after IA occupied heights, Chicom was itching to come up to teach a lesson.

[sivab]

https://bharatshakti.in/northern-army-c ... we-ceding/

Joshi: Absolutely. Step one was disengagement of the armour that was in proximity and that has happened very smoothly. Steps 2 and 3 are disengagement from the north and south banks. Step 4 is the final disengagement which will happen from Rezang La and Rechin La complex (the RR Complex). Important thing is that it was decided that once this phase of the disengagement process gets over, within 48 hours we will have the 10th Corps Commanders flag meeting where we’ll discuss resolution of other friction areas.

Lt Gen Joshi: That is a misinterpretation of the agreement. We’ve to look at this in the manner that our claim line is till Finger 8. The PLA is going behind the Finger 8, behind our claim line. They are restoring the entire landforms from Finger 4 to Finger 8, back to April 2020. They will not carry out any activity on our side of F-8, i.e. our claimed areas. It’s a huge success, how are we ceding? Their claim is till F-4 but they are not doing any activity, whether it is military or otherwise, in areas claimed by us. It’s a huge success.

Lt Gen Joshi: This disengagement agreement is based on the premise that we will not occupy again. Having done this, we have indicated our intentions very clearly to the PLA that we will not allow the unilateral change of the status quo on the LAC. In the agreement, it is there that these areas will not be occupied again. We’ll be vigilant, our force levels are alert.

In 2010, when you came to Ladakh and I was brigade commander here, only two battalions were looking after the entire area but now we have over 90,000 troops in eastern Ladakh.

Lt Gen Joshi: Other friction points are Depsang, Patrolling Points PP-15, PP-17A and the Demchok area. Once we agreed to this disengagement, it was also agreed that the day this process finishes, within 48 hours we will have another meeting of the Corps Commanders, discuss other areas and resolve them.

[nam]

IIRC, Lt. Gen Panag(?) did mention that the same deal was reached in Nov, but Indian media blew their trumpets a bit too much for China. So, per that source this time around China announced the deal *first* and he went on to state perhaps GoI told Indian media to knock it off.

Check out a recent vid from the Print, with Lt. Gen Hooda.

For what it is worth

Irrespective of how & when they do it, if the PLA is going back, our media will go to town with the story. If the Chinis were so concerned about our media ( which would be fabulous), they could have done it like Doklam. Ask the Indian side not to publish anything in the media. Or do their retreat during night.
Our side would have gladly agreed.

They are doing it in broad day light! So I feel
- there is some sort of "give" from our side or
- they are facing serious losses deploying at those heights.
- a PR campaign to show the world China is "all for peace" etc.

Whatever be the reason, this is humiliation of self styled "super power" without firing a shot! In full media glare. Chinis are not going to sallow this very easily.

[Y I Patel]

Recall that very early in the standoff we had discussed the geography north of Pangong Tso, and had mentioned Piu La and Ane La as key passes leading up to Finger 8 and even to Fort Khurnak...

Huge news hidden in this snippet - Gen Joshi reveals to Gaurav Sawant that IA has occupied Piu La and Ane La as part of Op Snow Leopard! Will probably withdraw though, as part of the agreement.

https://twitter.com/IndiaToday/status/1 ... 8617427971

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 69027?s=20 ---> Ladakh: Till August Chinese were not relenting in high level meetings. But after Aug 29-30 action by Indian Army, the Chinese were looking for a face saver in all subsequent meetings, says Northern Army commander.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 01824?s=20 ---> As I reported last night, the disengagement from the north and south banks of Pangong Tso is on. These exclusive pictures shared by the Indian Army say it all: the Chinese dismantling sangars, temporary structures, tanks pulling back and troops leaving lock, stock & barrel.

[ramana]

Chinis must be getting something in return for such a public humiliation.

I feel we might see easing of the app ban and other sanctions. Chinis never retaliated on our app ban.

They were quite hopeful of a resolution.

IIRC, Lt. Gen Panag(?) did mention that the same deal was reached in Nov, but Indian media blew their trumpets a bit too much for China. So, per that source this time around China announced the deal *first* and he went on to state perhaps GoI told Indian media to knock it off.

Check out a recent vid from the Print, with Lt. Gen Hooda.

For what it is worth

Gen Panag has been very political along with Gen Honda. And this has been noticed by other veterans too.
Secondly, GOI will never tell own media to knock it off as it's not in their DNA.
Thirdly, the duo is mistaking Opposition modus operandi for BJP.
Fourthly, no such agreement was reached in November for the timing was not right.
Fifthly, don't bring those type of foolish arguments now.

Share the moment, as we see ghost of 1962 buried in Himalayan permafrost.

[Rakesh]

+108 to you Ramana-ji!

[D.Mahesh]

IIRC, Lt. Gen Panag(?) ...GoI told Indian media to knock it off.

Check out a recent vid from the Print, with Lt. Gen Hooda.

For what it is worth

Irrespective of how & when they do it, if the PLA is going back...

Whatever be the reason, this is humiliation of self styled "super power" without firing a shot! In full media glare. Chinis are not going to sallow this very easily.

Re media. Our DDM Angrezi media is completely compromised. It's the desi channels where the action is - and then of course Republic, T_NOW, and a handful of correspondents - who march to their own tune - out of step with their bosses. It's the desi_media where perceptions are aired and formed. And this is ginormous Dammit - India is the world's largest FREE media market.
China too has been becoming a different place for years now. Dharnas, morchas are not rare and can get quite active even. Of course the actions are directed at afsars no higher than our Tahslildars. But in China, a bureacratic state/society by design and heritage, this is quite a prominent level. ChiComs committed way more resources this time - comparable to Nathu La at leas. THey just found they aren't up to it

[ramana]

Problem is not the media but the mendacious folks who misuse it.

[ramana]

Full interview with Northern Army Commander.

Transcript of interview.
https://bharatshakti.in/northern-army-c ... we-ceding/

Please listen again and again.
This general fought in Kargil as battalion commander. Deployed as Brigadier, Maj General, Corps commander and now Northern Command.

[Pratyush]

Share the moment, as we see ghost of 1962 buried in Himalayan permafrost.

I am quite happy that the PRC choose to withdraw.

But I am suspicious of PRC's motivations.

An army belonging to a party that dreams of dominating the world at some point in time, doesn't just walk away from the field when faced with what is a second rate power in its mind.

They will try to teach us a lesson some time in the future. We have to remain vigilant always.

[Sonugn]

Unbelievable meltdown & name calling from a certain Indian CCP shrill on twitter who boasted about PLA algorithmic warfare & warp drives.

PLA moving back has impacted him at the personal level.

[Mort Walker]

Please listen again and again.
This general fought in Kargil as battalion commander. Deployed as Brigadier, Maj General, Corps commander and now Northern Command.

At 11:05-11:15, General Joshi states from 2010 there were two battalions and by late Aug 2020 it went up to 90,000 troops (these are mountain division men) and at least (implied) a division of high altitude armor. That reality sunk into the PLA as they had 50,000 troops in Sep 2020, with even less armor. The PLA had to back down or face losses by attrition.

[NRao]

India to clear new investment proposals from China post Ladakh disengagement

"We'll start giving approvals to some greenfield investment proposals, but we will only clear those sectors which are not sensitive to national security," one of the officials said.

[isubodh]

India to clear new investment proposals from China post Ladakh disengagement

That's logical. We need their investment, it will also give us leverage like tiktok later.

General Question : Have ever asked China formally to return our area taken in 1962. Or mentioned the same in UN ? Not that this will get it back but it makes our stand clear we want it back.

[nachiket]

Please listen again and again.
This general fought in Kargil as battalion commander. Deployed as Brigadier, Maj General, Corps commander and now Northern Command.

Just to add, he was the Commanding officer of Capt. Vikram Batra (13 JAK Rifles) and himself won a Vir Chakra for leading from the front in the battle to capture Point 5140.

[suryag]

Played by Sanjay Dutt in the movie

[YashG]

Re media. Our DDM Angrezi media is completely compromised.

Just to be sure DDM Angrezi media is now just NDTV. All major broadcasting TV channels (Nt counting print media, blog types) - Zee, Times Now, India Today, Aajtak, Headlines today etc. are pretty much in sync with GoI mostly.

[manjgu]

while the disengagement is welcome... i dont think we will get such an opportunity once again as right now...when we have our feet on their face/tail. my only grouse is that a more substantive disengagement/resolution should have been negotiated. anyway ...lets trust our political/mil leadership. Leaders should always try to resolve legacy issues and not leave issues/problems for next generations.

[rajkumar]

Unbelievable meltdown & name calling from a certain Indian CCP shrill on twitter who boasted about PLA algorithmic warfare & warp drives.

PLA moving back has impacted him at the personal level.

Please post link for us to enjoy...

[nam]

It is important that we DON'T have a resolution. The moment there is peace, every t, d, h will relax.

For starters the next set of order for Astra 1 will come in 2025. PLI will be reduced, as we can easily import from "friendly" China

We can resolve the border, once we cross 10T GDP and have a powerful MIC.

[Cyrano]

CNN reports with more pictures:

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/18/asia/india-china-border-disengagement-intl-hnk/index.html

[John]

Not suprised they willing to swallow this and move on because they sense a bigger opportunity at land grab elsewhere. As I been saying I expect China to turn its attention on Russia they realize Putin is venerable in post Trump era.

[durairaaj]

Looks like Biden admin. has dropped the ball. The anti-China coalition that was assiduously built by Trump administration for four years has been destroyed in mere four weeks by Biden administration. By rejecting a conflict with China, he killed the Quad in one stroke and finished India's will to take the fight to Tibet.

It's no wonder PM Modi and MEA has decided that it's not worth to fight China with the blood of our Sons and tears of our daughters, when US is not ready to fight China in the future.

I only hope that manufacturing and economy related initiatives taken post Galwan incident are continued and make Indian industry independent of China. If not, we will forever be subservient to China.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status/1361578372967501824?s=20 ---> As I reported last night, the disengagement from the north and south banks of Pangong Tso is on. These exclusive pictures shared by the Indian Army say it all: the Chinese dismantling sangars, temporary structures, tanks pulling back and troops leaving lock, stock & barrel.

https://twitter.com/ananthkrishnan/stat ... 39971?s=20 ---> Amazing visuals. Leaves one still wondering: what was the point of this all?

https://twitter.com/Cold_Peace_/status/ ... 09866?s=20 ---> No idea. But if I had to hazard a wild guess. Pissed off about Doklam and DSDBO, China felt a limited op might send a coercive signal to halt LAC roads while nabbing some grey zone real estate. Miscalculated resistance, countermoves, and the geopolitical and practical costs.

[Rakesh]

Unbelievable meltdown & name calling from a certain Indian CCP shrill on twitter who boasted about PLA algorithmic warfare & warp drives.

PLA moving back has impacted him at the personal level.

Big takleef to many, as evidenced by a few on the forum as well.

[Rakesh]

Looks like Biden admin. has dropped the ball. The anti-China coalition that was assiduously built by Trump administration for four years has been destroyed in mere four weeks by Biden administration. By rejecting a conflict with China, he killed the Quad in one stroke and finished India's will to take the fight to Tibet.

It's no wonder PM Modi and MEA has decided that it's not worth to fight China with the blood of our Sons and tears of our daughters, when US is not ready to fight China in the future.

I only hope that manufacturing and economy related initiatives taken post Galwan incident are continued and make Indian industry independent of China. If not, we will forever be subservient to China.

And you came up with this analysis, based on less than one month of the Biden Administration?

Killing the Quad only serves to further (and accelerate) the purpose of indigenizing India's industry, especially the defence sector. That is not really in the American MIC interest.

No Quad = No CATOBAR aircraft carrier, for which the JWGACTC meets
No Quad = No phoren carrier borne fighter, in which Boeing is pitting the F-18SH Block III.
No Quad = No ASW helicopter, in which the MH-60R has been purchased by the Indian Navy.
No Quad = No airborne early warning aircraft carrier, in which the E-2D Advanced Hawkeye has been offered.

Biden Administration is going to kill all this and ruin the opportunity to make billions for the American MIC?

Rather than celebrate the moment, you want folks to dhoti shiver. I wonder what (or whose) agenda are you trying to push?

I especially love this emotional line, "....with the blood of our Sons and tears of our daughters...." Amazing dialogue delivery. Kudos to you! Reminds of this cliched line from Bollywood movies, "Bhagwan maine aaj tak tujhse kuch nahi maanga....."

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/status/1362096482371969027?s=20 ---> Ladakh: Till August Chinese were not relenting in high level meetings. But after Aug 29-30 action by Indian Army, the Chinese were looking for a face saver in all subsequent meetings, says Northern Army commander.

https://twitter.com/abhish_31/status/13 ... 07136?s=20 ---> It is evident that PLA has made blunder in tactical planning, while the Bosses in Beijing has made blunder in strategic planning. PLA underestimated Indian Army, while Beijing underestimated New Delhi. But for India; there should not be any complacency.

[durairaaj]

And you came up with this analysis, based on less than one month of the Biden Administration?

It was soon after Biden's talk with Modi and his public announcement about future US policies the disengagement was executed by China and India. After that public announcement none of the other Quad members are making any noise. Only US is making noise about renewing Quad. But Japan and Australia has stopped talking about it. India was not talking collaboration with Russia all these days. But now Foreign secretary is talkiong about Russian cooperation in dialogue with China. If you still did not get my point go through the timeline on this topic in Google news.

...
I wonder what (or whose) agenda are you trying to push?

I especially love this emotional line, "....with the blood of our Sons and tears of our daughters...." Amazing dialogue delivery. Kudos to you! Reminds of this cliched line from Bollywood movies, "Bhagwan maine aaj tak tujhse kuch nahi maanga....."

If your understanding is that I am creating a fear of Chinese military attack then you misunderstood me. In fact, I am ok with the disengagement. My fear is the following news. I guess you have not read it.
India set to clear some new investment proposals from China in coming weeks

[Anujan]

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status/1361578372967501824?s=20 ---> As I reported last night, the disengagement from the north and south banks of Pangong Tso is on. These exclusive pictures shared by the Indian Army say it all: the Chinese dismantling sangars, temporary structures, tanks pulling back and troops leaving lock, stock & barrel.

https://twitter.com/ananthkrishnan/stat ... 39971?s=20 ---> Amazing visuals. Leaves one still wondering: what was the point of this all?

https://twitter.com/Cold_Peace_/status/ ... 09866?s=20 ---> No idea. But if I had to hazard a wild guess. Pissed off about Doklam and DSDBO, China felt a limited op might send a coercive signal to halt LAC roads while nabbing some grey zone real estate. Miscalculated resistance, countermoves, and the geopolitical and practical costs.

This is most probably the correct explanation.

I think many people are falling into the trap of "Chunkian chineese have a 50 year plan!!!"

Here is my speculation:

Doklam was perceived as a major insult in China. The same Jernail (IIRC retiring Nov 2020?) wanted to send India a message by showing up in force in LAC and grabbing some territory. Same tactical brilliance as Op Gibraltar. Desi babus and Army were scratching their head as to why cheen would do this, since we've had a relatively peaceful border for many years and trade/economic interdependence was increasing.

China thought they'd sent a message, wanted to leave after grabbing some land and inflicting some casualties in Galwan. Our brave souls did not let that happen. We went up the escalation spiral. Then the thinking in Cheen would have been "Confucious say, sad situation is opportunity" and tried to grab land elsewhere. We went and sat on top of Kailash range. No option left but to mutually agree to withdraw

a) There was no Chunkian Chinese with 50 year plan, they just made it up as they went along. They envisioned showing up in force, grabbing some land and India rolling over and taking the slap

b) They will be back again

[A Nandy]

Meanwhile tunnels and tanks(light). In this small window of opportunity we have to build these fast.

[Atmavik]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKC-wLj96zY

'China wanted to humiliate Modi, but was forced to withdraw as mil stalemate was going nowhere'

Nitin Gohkle and Ananth krishnan(from hindu) discuss the chineese point of view.

[Rakesh]

It was soon after Biden's talk with Modi and his public announcement about future US policies the disengagement was executed by China and India. After that public announcement none of the other Quad members are making any noise. Only US is making noise about renewing Quad. But Japan and Australia has stopped talking about it. India was not talking collaboration with Russia all these days. But now Foreign secretary is talking about Russian cooperation in dialogue with China. If you still did not get my point go through the timeline on this topic in Google news.

Blinken to hold virtual 'Quad' meeting with Australia, India, Japan
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN2AH2MH
17 Feb 2021

In the above link, India, Japan and Australia are taking part in the next Quad meeting, which is happening today - 18 Feb 2021 - right alongside with the US. So your claim that India, Japan and Australia are not talking about Quad is factually incorrect. They are active participants in today's meeting and just like Malabar 2020, the navies of these countries will participate with the navies of US and India when Malabar 2021 occurs. Participation makes one as complicit, as the one who leads the conversation.

If your understanding is that I am creating a fear of Chinese military attack then you misunderstood me. In fact, I am ok with the disengagement. My fear is the following news. I guess you have not read it.
India set to clear some new investment proposals from China in coming weeks

When the proposal clears, this Govt will ensure that it will be in India's interest. At that point, you may be "ok" with it...just as you are ok with the disengagement. After all, it was this Govt that negotiated the disengagement.

[Deans]

Please listen again and again.
This general fought in Kargil as battalion commander. Deployed as Brigadier, Maj General, Corps commander and now Northern Command.

Just to add, he was the Commanding officer of Capt. Vikram Batra (13 JAK Rifles) and himself won a Vir Chakra for leading from the front in the battle to capture Point 5140.

He took over command of 13 JAK Rifles in the middle of the war and 2 of his men got the PVC - Capt Vikram Batra & Rifleman Sanjay Kumar.