India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

[Sonugn]

Sorry Sir, Mods might be angry at that.

You can find it on twitter.

Please to tell us whose TL we are looking for, sonugn-garu. And when it was posted, so that we can find it on our own.

Rhymes with Barveen Chowmeenhey

[Shanmukh]

Please to tell us whose TL we are looking for, sonugn-garu. And when it was posted, so that we can find it on our own.

Rhymes with Barveen Chowmeenhey

Thanks, saar. Blocked by ze said gent, but I shall log out and see what ze chentleman had to say.

[Atmavik]

Please to tell us whose TL we are looking for, sonugn-garu. And when it was posted, so that we can find it on our own.

Rhymes with Barveen Chowmeenhey

wait.. did a grand mother cross the LAC ?

[sanjayc]

China has released a video of Galwan valley clash trying to pin the blame on Indians. However , the video shows how Chincoms came prepared with riot gear and it was a planned move .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTAE9Y5qrfY
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 113415.cms

These tactics may force the hand of Indian govt. sooner or later to take Galwan clash to logical conclusion.

Full video: https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202102/1215920.shtml
Shows badly injured Chinese regimental commander with head injury

[hnair]

Admin Note: enough about the Granny-smither and his bat-acid-trips. Anyone who posts his moronic tweets or links will get a perma-ban on general principles!!!

[RaviB]

Full video: https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202102/1215920.shtml
Shows badly injured Chinese regimental commander with head injury

The video is extremely crazy, the language and the entire tone is kind of like North Korean News. They've really gone all out with the propaganda, the narrator sounds like he's on the verge of tears at the glorious bravery of these warriors. They don't mention India by name in the video, probably due to some CCP guidelines.

Reminded me of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6jfaoDtXLY

[ramana]

what if tomorrow PLA in a quick move occupies heights on (Kailash range + top of F4) and comes in till f4... what will be indian response? though the Commanders on ground know best, i still feel we had some solid cards and gave it away for little.

PLA will be withdrawing about 6 x the distance IA withdraws. Plus regular overflight for verification.

So it's like CFE treaty.

Lt Gen Joshi was military attache in Beijing among other things.

[manjgu]

thats nice/interesting. it would be interesting to see where the PLA 'heavies' are moving to. From where did they come in Apr 2020? If i was negotiating , i would have focussed on areas other than Pangong first and come to pangong ( north/south) last. anyway lets see how the negotiations proceed from now on. Round 1 to IA. well played. 3) the Pakis must be sh.ting bricks seeing rapidity/scale/quality of Indian deployment..

[Punjabi]

Full video: https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202102/1215920.shtml
Shows badly injured Chinese regimental commander with head injury

The video is extremely crazy, the language and the entire tone is kind of like North Korean News. They've really gone all out with the propaganda, the narrator sounds like he's on the verge of tears at the glorious bravery of these warriors. They don't mention India by name in the video, probably due to some CCP guidelines.

Reminded me of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6jfaoDtXLY

They are learning fast from Piglets...who said Balakot mein 300 shaitaan nahin shaeed hue, just 300 crows ki tail aur beak tedi ho gayi.... and the KuffarAIrForce violated the Animal Rights...

[Atmavik]

^^ was abt to say make the comparison with Pukis, at least the pukis response was quick. these folks needed 8 months to edit a video.

[ramana]

thats nice/interesting. it would be interesting to see where the PLA 'heavies' are moving to. From where did they come in Apr 2020? IIf i was negotiating , i would have focussed on areas other than Pangong first and come to pangong ( north/south) last. anyway lets see how the negotiations proceed from now on. Round 1 to IA. well played. 3) the Pakis must be sh.ting bricks seeing rapidity/scale/quality of Indian deployment..

There must be a reason why IA wanted that.
I read 10th commanders meeting announced.

[Pratyush]

^^ was abt to say make the comparison with Pukis, at least the pukis response was quick. these folks needed 8 months to edit a video.

The pukies took 8 weeks to reveal the location of the raids in Balakot.

The Chinese have taken 8 months to reveal the casualties from Galawan.

One Paki = 10 Chinese.

[dinesha]

India boosting defences along north-eastern border with China
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... m_term=sce

Centre okays 18 border foot tracks in Arunachal Pradesh
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... aign=cppst

[LakshmanPST]

Was going through some Chinese forums...
The narrative fed to Chinese regarding Finger area is this--->
"LAC is always at Finger 4, but India crossed F4 and patrolled for the first time to F8 in April 2020... So, PLA was forced to mobilize to F4..."
So, the news that India will go back to F3 and PLA to F8 and patrolling won't be done between F4 & F8 (no mention of this being a temporary arrangement) is seen as a victory of PLA and defeat of IA...

China and Pakis are true brothers when it comes to propaganda against their own citizens...

Also Rahul Gandhi's statements that India gave up Finger area are quoted as proof that India lost and that news that India will accept Chinese investments is shown as proof that India is bending over backwards for compromise...
-
But one thing is definitely confirmed---> Chinese got their face-saver... As far as handling their public is concerned, this 'victory' message is enough...
If at all PLA will come back for a fight, it will be due to loss of face internationally or to prove a point to India elsewhere... But it won't be due to public anger...

The anger at seeing those edited Galwan videos will also probably go down after few days since they announced that only 4 soldiers died against 20 Indians (you know 1:5 ratio)...

[nam]

The ho ha is due to a feeling that there might be some truth in Indians claiming lot of PLA causalities. They know that if Indians attacked in large numbers, PLA are not super humans to kill 20, when only 4 self are killed.

Moreover we publicly showed lot of our men in hospital.

If only 4 were killed why hide for 8 months. Fear that slowly other causalities might become public.

[asgkhan]

https://twitter.com/shen_shiwei/status/ ... 2439510021

All I see is chubby femboy losing his sensitive vocal chords @ the bearded gaijin.

No wonder us desis can stomp their soft skinned faces in the North east mud.

[manjgu]

even if we killled 1000000 hans in galwan they will manipulate the narrative... so we should just enjoy their antics. maybe after few months they will give medals to a few more and so on..

[Aditya_V]

https://twitter.com/shen_shiwei/status/1362697742439510021

All I see is chubby femboy losing his sensitive vocal chords @ the bearded gaijin.

No wonder us desis can stomp their soft skinned faces in the North east mud.

The worst part is this ITBP PLA or Chinese Border discussion in Uttarkhand Border in June 20, so this guy manned multiple fronts?

[shyamd]

I don’t think it’s time to celebrate. There was a back channel diplomacy between Russia India and China. They are trying to arrange a summit in Delhi in the next few months.

Something related to Belt and road is being negotiated

We’ll know soon.

Is this an indication that CCP orchestrated the border standoff as a bargaining chip for our entry to BRI?

It’s more about geography and strategic control.

[ramana]

political.

[Rishi]

https://twitter.com/rajfortyseven/statu ... 67266?s=20

Raj says that Chinese pic of Y20 with 4 coffins is at Lhasa airport while the KIA were supposedly buried at Kangshiwar cemetery (at Hotan). ie staged photo?

[Ankit Desai]

thats nice/interesting. it would be interesting to see where the PLA 'heavies' are moving to. From where did they come in Apr 2020? If i was negotiating , i would have focussed on areas other than Pangong first and come to pangong ( north/south) last. anyway lets see how the negotiations proceed from now on. Round 1 to IA. well played. 3) the Pakis must be sh.ting bricks seeing rapidity/scale/quality of Indian deployment..

1. PLA moved tanks and other supporting resources, 200 odd Km south/east of Moldo or 200 odd km east of Sirijap. (Nitiin Gokhle in conversation with Lt Gen YK Joshi).
2. YK Joshi aware of the danger, he mention that As part of new written agreement PLA commanders had it in black & white that they won't venture between F4-F8 as well south bank, kailash range (not sure sure how long, meaning once things got normalize will both side resume patrolling ?)
3. The written agreement would be interesting to get hands on.

To Nam while in conversation with Rakesh about US' influence. YK Joshi very specifically mention that after Aug 29-30, once IA occupied heights on Pangong Tso South Bank, Kailash Range, F4-F5 over looking, PLA realized that they have no option but to accept Indian demand to agree to Status Quo ante April 2020. Since they invested heavily on F5-F6 they were tryign to delay as much they can and also in subsequent meetings they were pushing/trying to offer to come from F4 to F5/6 and make it new F8. IA did not budge. Winter took tool on PLA and break through on Pangong Tso. So US has no role other than providing intel.

-Ankit

[shyamd]

thats nice/interesting. it would be interesting to see where the PLA 'heavies' are moving to. From where did they come in Apr 2020? IIf i was negotiating , i would have focussed on areas other than Pangong first and come to pangong ( north/south) last. anyway lets see how the negotiations proceed from now on. Round 1 to IA. well played. 3) the Pakis must be sh.ting bricks seeing rapidity/scale/quality of Indian deployment..

There must be a reason why IA wanted that.
I read 10th commanders meeting announced.

Operation Snow Leopard is STILL ongoing and it definitely involves Depsang. The Pangong Tso part of the op could not happen unless Depsang was reinforced. Look at the map. Won’t say more on this.

It makes sense for Pangong Tso disengagement to happen first

[SSridhar]

If only 4 were killed why hide for 8 months.

The Chinese have an answer for that. They haven't said that openly as is their wont, but this is what is quoted:

. . . was a balancing act intended to deter relations from worsening. The Chinese government has been under intense scrutiny for refraining from casualty announcements, Lin said, but it was a matter of geopolitical interest, with a resolution of the border conflict seen as a higher priority.

The implication of what they said, which I posted in the previous page is that had they revealed only 4 much earlier, the Indian population would have been more angered and resolution would have been delayed !!

Being the world-leading superpower that they are, they could take such a benign attitude against 'uncooked barbarians' in the larger interests of Planet Earth as Confucius has taught them to be. Such actions also reinforce their Heavenly Mandate.

I have always believed that the Chinese were totally clueless when it came to such matters. Their 'famed' diplomacy was all bunkum and blown out of proportions. That gets reinforced with every outing.

[manjgu]

once we disengage from PTso what lever do we have to force PLA to comply is beyond me..( atleast from what is available on public fora)? from what i understood ..depsang is one end of the chain..PTso in the middle..demchok is the other end. i think the biggest loss of patrolling rights was in depsang area and which is of critical interest to PLA.. negotiations should have begun from there. Ptso IMHO has more publicity value but from a strategic POV depsang is more important. I still do not understand why Ptso has to happen first.

[SSridhar]

I still do not understand why Ptso has to happen first.

One reason could be that Depsang had been a long-standing issue while PTso happened in May.

[LakshmanPST]

I remembering reading somewhere (or hearing in some Nithin Gokhale's video) 2 days back that Depsang issue is not related to current stand-off...
Negotiations for Depsang (exact area is probably the bottleneck and PPs 10 to 13) will take much longer...

[Sonugn]

I remembering reading somewhere (or hearing in some Nithin Gokhale's video) 2 days back that Depsang issue is not related to current stand-off...
Negotiations for Depsang (exact area is probably the bottleneck and PPs 10 to 13) will take much longer...

I still do not understand why Ptso has to happen first.

One reason could be that Depsang had been a long-standing issue while PTso happened in May.

Correct, There was issue at Depsang 2013 which did not go in our favor.

We had to demolish several bunkers, listening/observation posts (At Chumar) for the PLA to go back.

[Ankit Desai]

once we disengage from PTso what lever do we have to force PLA to comply is beyond me..( atleast from what is available on public fora)? from what i understood ..depsang is one end of the chain..PTso in the middle..demchok is the other end. i think the biggest loss of patrolling rights was in depsang area and which is of critical interest to PLA.. negotiations should have begun from there. Ptso IMHO has more publicity value but from a strategic POV depsang is more important. I still do not understand why Ptso has to happen first.

1. It is we jingos who are clubbing PTso, Kailash range (yes I keep South PTso & Kailash range separate), Gogara, Hot Spring, Despsang, Galwan & Demchok.

2. Lt Gen YK Joshi & commanders keept only PTso & Kailash range togather where South PTso & Kailash range for bargain chips. YK Joshi pointed out in interview with Gaurav c Sawant of india today as well with Nitin Gokhale.

3. They are not even considering Depsang with 2020 incident, he even pointed out that in near past there was incident at depsang which lasted for 21 days and chinese went back.

4. He also mentioned that as things stand today, IA & PLA both are blocking each other's patrol. PLA perception line is quite in toward west. IA is not allowing them.

5. He also mentioned during both interviews that IA has ways to created South of PTso & Kailash range at Depsang and at other points.

6. Gogra & Hot Spring are stalled disengagement which should be relatively fast and there are not large number of troops facing each other either which will make it even faster.

New entrant in disengagement talk is Charding Ninglung Nallah (CNN) !

Similarly, the “friction” at the Charding Ninglung Nallah (CNN) track junction in the Demchok sector, which arose after the people’s Liberation Army (PLA) pitched some tents while also denying grazing rights to Indian villagers there, should be relatively easier to resolve, said sources.

IF POSSIBLE CAN ANYONE DRAW A MAP OF DEMCHOK AREA ? INDIA's area vs Chinese. A request to Rohit went in vain.

-Ankit

[NRao]

[LakshmanPST]

IF POSSIBLE CAN ANYONE DRAW A MAP OF DEMCHOK AREA ? INDIA's area vs Chinese. A request to Rohit went in vain.

-Ankit

I marked the general area and roads here--->
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7810&p=2447484&hilit=DEMCHOK#p2447484

But don't know the specifics of CNN... I guess Rohit Vats sir might know...

[SSridhar]

1. It is we jingos who are clubbing PTso, Kailash range (yes I keep South PTso & Kailash range separate), Gogara, Hot Spring, Despsang, Galwan & Demchok.

Ankit, there is also another school of thought. The Chinese always prefer a 'package deal' whether it is with us in our east, or Vietnam or ASEAN in Indo-China Sea or FSU (Ussuri River) etc. But, this time they don't seem to have insisted on similar lines. It is sector by sector.

[ramana]

Ankit you are right. Only outsiders link everything together and scream fail.

[sanjayc]

Another man detained for insulting fallen heroes in border clash with India

Another web user who slung mud at the PLA heroes who were killed in the Galwan Valley border clash with India has been reported to police and was detained on Sunday, one day after an online blogger who smeared the heroes was detained, winning applause from Chinese netizens for the quick reaction and proper punishment for the slanderers.

The notice of the arrest was published on the official WeChat account of the Beijing police on Sunday. It said that they had received a report on Saturday of a person aged 28, surnamed Chen, publishing insulting comments in a group chat about the PLA soldiers who died when dealing with the Indian military's illegal trespassing in the Galwan Valley.

The comments sparked fury among other members in the group, who later reported his remarks to the police. The case was quickly investigated, and local police found Chen on Saturday evening, who said he had done it to vent his emotions.

Chen was detained, and the case is undergoing further investigation.

Police in Nanjing, East China's Jiangsu Province, detained an online blogger, surnamed Qiu and known as Labixiaoqiu online, for insulting the fallen heroes on Saturday. The police were hailed by the Chinese public for their quick reaction and giving the proper punishment to the slanderer, whose Weibo account with more than 2.5 million followers was also suspended.

China on Friday unveiled for the first time details of the Chinese casualties involved in the border clash with the Indian military in Galwan Valley LAC, prompting many to flood social media platforms to mourn the late heroes and their sacrifices made in fighting for the country.

A law that came into effect on May 1, 2018 stipulates that it is illegal to defame the country's heroes and martyrs.

Global Times

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202102/1216026.shtml

[tandav]

In long distance running at Sea Level altitude 1m of altitude gain is considered to be equivalent to 10 m of flat running eg if I run 10000m and increase my altitude by say 200m then it is considered equivalent to running 10000+200*10m = 12000m. If there is a retreat of forces then then a formula taking into account the altitude drop should be considered. At high altitudes I would say 1m of altitude is equivalent to 100m of flat ground.

[manjgu]

1) with the facts available in public fora.. if i were a chinese ( PLA) i would prefer a sector by sector approach to resolution with the sector where I ( PLA) is at the weakest to be resolved first. I heard Gen Joshi say depsang, demchok are legacy issues. Right.. but are not the political/military leadership responsible for solving all issues ( legacy/recent) ? 2) when was IA stopped from patrolling till the PP's at the Y junction or is it the bottleneck?

[sanjaykumar]

https://www.indiatoday.in/news-analysis ... 2021-02-21



While there was some satisfaction that a major crisis could be averted for the time being, there was much more disappointment in China over perceptions like “China has given away too much - a piece for peace”, that “the concession was inexplicable” and “the agreement unfair and unfavourable to China”.

Many commentators in the Chinese internet argued that the retreat was far from “equidistant” - China retreated far more than India, demolished more structures than India and surrendered its key advantages at the Northern Bank of Pangong Lake.


My my the great CCP cannot even control the discourse of patriotic proletariat behind the great firewall of China. They are slipping, India forces glasnost. Hehehehe.

[vimal]

https://twitter.com/shen_shiwei/status/ ... 2439510021

N.Biren Singh
@NBirenSingh
Meet Capt. Soiba Maningba Rangnamei from Senapati District, Manipur of 16 Bihar, leading his men in Galwan during the confrontation against the Chinese PLA. The valour you have shown while standing up for the Nation has made all of us proud.

[Ankit Desai]

IF POSSIBLE CAN ANYONE DRAW A MAP OF DEMCHOK AREA ? INDIA's area vs Chinese. A request to Rohit went in vain.

-Ankit

I marked the general area and roads here--->
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7810&p=2447484&hilit=DEMCHOK#p2447484

But don't know the specifics of CNN... I guess Rohit Vats sir might know...

Thank you Lakshman, really appreciate it.

-Ankit

[Davidrock]

China has released a video of Galwan valley clash trying to pin the blame on Indians. However , the video shows how Chincoms came prepared with riot gear and it was a planned move .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTAE9Y5qrfY
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 113415.cms

These tactics may force the hand of Indian govt. sooner or later to take Galwan clash to logical conclusion.

Full video: https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202102/1215920.shtml
Shows badly injured Chinese regimental commander with head injury

Some observations (couple of them already discussed)

1. PLA troops have a dog with them.
2. They are wearing hip high waders, which mean they could easily step in cold water.
3. Their riot gear has padded upper body, and they could easily bear some lathi.
4. IA had minimum riot gear - shield and stick.
5. This seems to have been first of the clashes on that night. No immediate fight indicates it.