India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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pankajs
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby pankajs » 07 Sep 2020 23:43

Right .. The Chinese too wanted to win/impose their will/stamp their authority/show India and/or Modi up without fighting. That has been their tactics till date and a successful one at that!

They never thought it would change. While the last Indian gambit is still cautious still a BIG change from Chinese pov.

Wanted to write this before, they have got accustomed to it BOTH on the Indo-Tibet border and Champa sea (SSC) when faced with the sole super power. Why wouldn't they be confident in their strategy after all this!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby vimal » 07 Sep 2020 23:57

nam wrote:The Chinis wanted to blackmail us to stop the road building, in return for allowing the patrol back. Hence they created a bigger drama with 3-4 intrusion, but only towards their claim of LAC, so as not to provoke a armed response from us.

We refused. Then Galwan happened and everything went haywire for the Chinis. We started economic sanctions. The Chinis thought we might as well keep the areas occupied, since we are not getting anything by going back.

Then we captured the heights. They have now painted themselves in a corner. Either they go back voluntarily or use force with potential blowback on a 3400KM line. In the first case it will be a loss of face. In the second one, they would need to get half of PLA in to godforsaken barren Tibet to guard a 3400Km line..


I think the economic cost of maintaining vigil across 1.2 million sq km of Tibet must be staggering for Hans. Tibet is almost 1/3rd the size of India with nothing really of value except for water perhaps. If India can shed defensive posture and grab area, we can impose this cost on China. Imagine what it would do to it’s economy.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby vijayk » 08 Sep 2020 00:00

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/chin ... 36558.html
China bans Scratch, MIT's programming language for kids

Projects on Scratch contains "a great deal of humiliating, fake, and libelous content about China," including placing Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan in a dropdown list of "countries", a state-run news outlet reported on August 21.

The article added that "any service distributing information in China" must comply with local regulations, and Scratch's website and user forum had been shut down in the country.


This is how these scums operate ...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Vips » 08 Sep 2020 00:11

SriKumar wrote:OT maybe ...USS Nimitz a/c in North Arabian sea, message to Pakistan? Eye on Gwadar?

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/navy-se ... d=72851994


If not right now will certainly be so if the Porkis try to open a 2nd front on us if and when we are at war with the Chinese in Oct/Nov.

An independent Baluchistan which is a protectorate of USA is of immense sense:
- The Chinese will be shut off from the so called alternate route to Malaka straits.
-Its investement in porkistan so far goes up in smoke.
-It will allow US to strangle Iran and cut off the likely China- Pak-Iran- Russia axis from playing any meaningful or even a nuisance role in the Gulf.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Cyrano » 08 Sep 2020 00:17

nam wrote:The Chinis wanted to blackmail us to stop the road building, in return for allowing the patrol back. Hence they created a bigger drama with 3-4 intrusion, but only towards their claim of LAC, so as not to provoke a armed response from us.

We refused. Then Galwan happened and everything went haywire for the Chinis. We started economic sanctions. The Chinis thought we might as well keep the areas occupied, since we are not getting anything by going back.

Then we captured the heights. They have now painted themselves in a corner. Either they go back voluntarily or use force with potential blowback on a 3400KM line. In the first case it will be a loss of face. In the second one, they would need to get half of PLA in to godforsaken barren Tibet to guard a 3400Km line..


That is the best sum up of the situation so far. What I'm trying to get at is that China will try this again, in Depsang or Demchok or somewhere else on the eastern front. Now or later.

Their FM is on record mentioning border talks, they know it will be a long drawn process for years. India has elections, China doesn't. Depending on what GoI does now, they will make further incursions or cool off and wait it out until hopefully a different Govt comes to power. Meanwhile, grab whatever else they can, to negotiate from a position of strength. They will set various negotiation traps I posted before, each of which will be a losing compromise if the Govt of the day vacillates even one bit. And in the end, there is a good possibility we lose good chunks of the territory we've claimed for long.

But that route is not inevitable to take. And if this Govt cannot change the course of events, I doubt any future Govt will.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 08 Sep 2020 00:17

amar_p wrote:India's traditional posture is defensive. Our forces are not designed to be expeditionary forces. China very well knows that. And it also knows that defensive postures will not impose unacceptable costs on the aggressor.

.....

Recent successes do make us feel good that we have broken out of some holding ground Nehruvian mould, but the reality is that India so far has not imposed any unaffordable, unacceptable costs on PLA for its adventure. In the larger scheme of things, these setbacks India has afflicted so far on PLA don't amount to much. Its a minor sideshow for Xitler which helps him get greater grip on PLA, weed out the incompetent/unloyal elements in PLA & CCP.

Unless India makes the panda hurt so badly that it feels like its paw is caught in the piercing spring-jaws of a bear trap, unless its survival depends on somehow freeing its mangled paw and limping away, this menace will not durably go away. Fix the Panda and the jackal to the west is taken care of as well.


Amar_p ji, thank you for the detailed and well laid out arguments. Point is that ultimately we will have to do what we have to do. Years of worrying has made us into the proverbial horse tied to a chair.
Image

Forget punching about our own weight we have been socially conditioned to worry about getting in the ring. These are bit baby steps. Maybe in an inter- generational change.

How many of us see the same aggressive tone of BRF outside. By bringing the topic up, it's at least forced people to notice. People are at least a little more aware of Ladakh and the debacle of the sixties. Small victories will increase self confidence.

Maybe our children will see the Indian flag flying from Skardu to Lhasa to Imphal to Kanyakumari

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Cyrano » 08 Sep 2020 00:19

Vips wrote:
SriKumar wrote:OT maybe ...USS Nimitz a/c in North Arabian sea, message to Pakistan? Eye on Gwadar?

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/navy-se ... d=72851994


If not right now will certainly be so if the Porkis try to open a 2nd front on us if and when we are at war with the Chinese in Oct/Nov.

An independent Baluchistan which is a protectorate of USA is of immense sense:
- The Chinese will be shut off from the so called alternate route to Malaka straits.
-Its investement in porkistan so far goes up in smoke.
-It will allow US to strangle Iran and cut off the likely China- Pak-Iran- Russia axis from playing any meaningful or even a nuisance role in the Gulf.


I'd rather have an independent Baluchistan which is a protectorate of India.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 08 Sep 2020 00:19

amar_p wrote:......

But that route is not inevitable to take. And if this Govt cannot change the course of events, I doubt any future Govt will.


No sir, the change will happen as long as sufficient people believe this. Tomorrow if the politicians in Congress realize that Nationalism is the only game in town to get elected they will also serve up the same.

Critical is to keep the flambe alive and fan it wider.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby nam » 08 Sep 2020 00:28

Chinis are complaining that we crossed again at some hill called Shenpao. Wonder if they are trying to put pressure for Wednesday's meeting..

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby sanjayc » 08 Sep 2020 00:29

How Indian Army foiled China’s move to push 1,000 soldiers into Pangong Tso’s south bank
India’s moves on night of 28 August were ‘precautionary deployment’, and its troops did not cross over to Chinese side of LAC.

On the night of 28 August, China had attempted to move in over 1,000 soldiers to capture territory on the Indian side of the Line of Actual Control, near the southern bank of Pangong Tso, ThePrint has learnt.

However, the attempt was thwarted by a combination of an alert surveillance system and troops specialising in mountain warfare, who raced against time and managed to outflank the Chinese and dominate several heights, giving India strategic hold over Reqin Pass and Spanggur Gap in the hills in the Chushul sector.

Sources in the defence and security establishment described the Indian move as a “precautionary deployment”, and underlined repeatedly that the forces had not crossed the LAC, even though inputs said ‘Black Top’ across the LAC was also a scene of action.

ThePrint had reported earlier that Indian troops had to resort to “tactical warnings” to the incoming Chinese soldiers to dissuade them.

How the events unfolded
Sources said at about 11 pm on 28 August, an Indian surveillance team first noticed the movement of some Chinese armoured personnel carriers (APCs) in Moldo.

This was followed by drone surveillance, and the People’s Liberation Army troops’ movement indicated they were going towards the LAC, and to a specific feature. Sources refused to identify the feature, citing operational reasons.

They said at this moment, specialised Indian units raced for the heights and dominated them — going even quicker than what had been worked out when multiple scenarios were being studied.

Then, it was noticed that the Chinese soldiers were carrying equipment meant to set up holding positions. This is when the Chinese were given the first tactical warning, and they stopped.

Realising that the Indians had understood their tactics, the Chinese called in additional vehicles as back up, so the Indian side issued additional warnings to dissuade them. “They realised the Indians meant business,” a source said.

“In total, 40 to 50 vehicles were there, including APCs. Each vehicle is believed to have 30-40 PLA personnel. So, the Chinese were easily over 1,000 strong,” the source said.

India then decided to dominate more hill tops in the area, and ended up doing just that over 50 km of unoccupied territory. Soldiers of the Mountain Strike Corps and a specialised elite unit raced for the passes, and dominated them with back up provided by certain other fighting arms.

Sources said specialised teams had already been deployed in the area in wake of the crisis that began in May, and were acclimatised and aware of the terrain and different routes to be taken. These troops specialise in carrying out covert operations behind enemy lines.

Around the same time, Nyima Tenzin, a Tibetan-Indian from the elite covert paramilitary unit Special Frontier Force (SFF), stepped on a 1962-vintage anti-personnel mine and was killed in action. His last rites were conducted Monday.


https://theprint.in/defence/how-indian- ... nk/497804/

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby abhik » 08 Sep 2020 00:29

Global Times
@globaltimesnews

China state-affiliated media

The #Indian army again illegally crossed the Line of Actual Control in Shenpao mountain near the south bank of Pangong Tso Lake on Monday, #PLA Western Theater Command spokesperson revealed.
11:47 PM · Sep 7, 2020

Where is this Shenpao mountain?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby nam » 08 Sep 2020 00:33

amar_p wrote:That is the best sum up of the situation so far. What I'm trying to get at is that China will try this again, in Depsang or Demchok or somewhere else on the eastern front. Now or later.

Their FM is on record mentioning border talks, they know it will be a long drawn process for years. India has elections, China doesn't. Depending on what GoI does now, they will make further incursions or cool off and wait it out until hopefully a different Govt comes to power. Meanwhile, grab whatever else they can, to negotiate from a position of strength. They will set various negotiation traps I posted before, each of which will be a losing compromise if the Govt of the day vacillates even one bit. And in the end, there is a good possibility we lose good chunks of the territory we've claimed for long.

But that route is not inevitable to take. And if this Govt cannot change the course of events, I doubt any future Govt will.


The biggest advantage of the current standoff being openly discussed threadbare..no future Indian government can quietly make any deal with the Chinis.

No future gov can let Chinis keep F4 without making it public. They cannot hand over land claimed by India without a sign from the parliament. And now everyone knows about F4 and no one will allow it to be given away!

Previous government would hide all the Chini intrusion. Now on it will be leaked very quickly.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby VikramS » 08 Sep 2020 00:34

India is leveraging the current situation with China to:

  • Mobilize and operationalize the domestic MIC
  • Build military alliances throughout the region surrounding China
  • Building momentum to get MNCs to open up manufacturing in India
  • Encouraging Desi consumers to boycott Chinese goods; this will spur Indian industries especially in MSME which have been hit by the cheap Chinese imports.
  • Limit Chinese Capital investment in Indian IT sector

The cost is of supporting forward deployed troops.
  • The incremental cost is not the same as supporting Siachin
  • Those soldiers would have been fed and accommodated in peace time locations; now we are creating new peace time locations near the LAC
  • The environment is certainly harsher; but that also means that troops can be rotated among units and all units of IA can then get ready for Mountain Warfare.
  • Better connectivity (BRO is doing a great job) will also reduce the cost of the logistic line.
  • Innovations in ground transportation tech means that we should be able to replace the human volunteers (porters) with mechanized transportation mechanisms. If a human can climb up, a 4x4 supporting path can also be created.

All in all, I see no reason for GOI to rush to seek a quick resolution in unfavorable terms.

Regardless of what compromise happens, the border will anyway have to be manned because the PLA/CCP combine will find some excuse or the other to put India in her place (sic).

India is better off looking down on the PlA from the heights than putting foot-patrols at risk; which have both a physical and psychological impact.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Mort Walker » 08 Sep 2020 00:34

The south bank of Pangong Tso means it is most likely still at the original LAC. The IA is not going to cross too far or it risks supply lines.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby nam » 08 Sep 2020 00:37

GT whining we shot in the air...jokers are finally learning PR. Get to be the first to complain..

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Kakarat » 08 Sep 2020 00:42

https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/sta ... 5674804226

Chinese border defense troops were forced to take countermeasures to stabilize the situation after the #Indian troops outrageously fired warning shots to PLA border patrol soldiers who were about to negotiate, said the spokesperson.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby abhik » 08 Sep 2020 00:42

^^^
Will have to wait to know what the "countermeasures" were.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby AshishA » 08 Sep 2020 00:44

Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1303035475674804226

Chinese border defense troops were forced to take countermeasures to stabilize the situation after the #Indian troops outrageously fired warning shots to PLA border patrol soldiers who were about to negotiate, said the spokesperson.


Forced to take countermeasures in my opinion means a firefight has taken place there. But let's wait for official army statement. Gobar times cannot be trusted.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby abhik » 08 Sep 2020 00:48

If gobar times is reporting it then something must have happened, either something that is significant or something that shows the PLA in good light.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Lisa » 08 Sep 2020 00:49

abhik wrote:^^^
Will have to wait to know what the "countermeasures" were.


They ran!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Lisa » 08 Sep 2020 00:53

^^^More to the point, they will create or are creating an excuse to say that they were attacked and were forced to retaliate and teach the Indians a 'lesson'.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby AshishA » 08 Sep 2020 00:55

Lisa wrote:^^^More to the point, they will create or are creating an excuse to say that they were attacked and were forced to retaliate and teach the Indians a 'lesson'.

Instead the little emperors will be taught a lesson by IA. Btw isn't it 3 am in Beijing? What are the need to post something like this so early?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby UPrabhu » 08 Sep 2020 00:59

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:
amar_p wrote:......

But that route is not inevitable to take. And if this Govt cannot change the course of events, I doubt any future Govt will.


No sir, the change will happen as long as sufficient people believe this. Tomorrow if the politicians in Congress realize that Nationalism is the only game in town to get elected they will also serve up the same.

Critical is to keep the flambe alive and fan it wider.


Yeah, but the idiots are still not getting it... they talking of rolling back 370 removal... they have become totally subservient

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby nam » 08 Sep 2020 00:59

Things have been far too quite since the defence minister meet...very unusual.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby LakshmanPST » 08 Sep 2020 01:02

They themselves clearly mentioned that Indian Army fired only warning shots... So, I don't think there is any loss of life...
-
My guess is, they're creating a narrative that they foiled an Indian Aggresive move, to save face...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby abhik » 08 Sep 2020 01:07

AshishAcharya wrote:
Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1303035475674804226



Forced to take countermeasures in my opinion means a firefight has taken place there. But let's wait for official army statement. Gobar times cannot be trusted.

While we wait for official news :| , I think there might have been a firefight too - the counter to warning shots cannot be warning shots, you would have to actually attack or retreat.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Anujan » 08 Sep 2020 01:10

I dont understand what "illegally crossing the LAC" means when they are not ready to exchange maps about their claim lines.

Their ambassador to India is on record saying that clear delineation of lines is not possible in the interest of peace and tranquility. Then what are they complaining about?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby g.sarkar » 08 Sep 2020 01:17

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... CPuIM.html
China’s foreign minister Wang Yi reaching Moscow to discuss total disengagement in Ladakh with Jaishankar
The much awaited meeting of foreign ministers is expected to record a forward movement towards complete disengagement and de-escalation of People’s Liberation Army.
Shishir Gupta, Hindustan Times, New Delhi, Sep 07, 2020

With Chinese State Councillor and foreign minister Wang Yi confirming his arrival in Moscow on Wednesday evening, the bilateral meeting with Indian External Affairs Minister S Jaishankar to discuss ways and means to resolve the present Ladakh standoff is confirmed on September 10. The two leaders are meeting on the sidelines of Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) ministerial hosted by Russian Federation. The time of the meeting is being finalised.
While EAM Jaishankar will arrive in Moscow on Tuesday evening with desk officers of China division, Foreign minister Wang will reach the next day to discuss the border escalation in Ladakh. The much awaited meeting of foreign ministers is expected to record a forward movement towards complete disengagement and de-escalation of People’s Liberation Army (PLA) with the Indian side insistent upon China to follow bilateral agreements and protocols since 1993.
Although Indian Defence Minister Rajnath Singh met his Chinese counterpart Gen Wei Fenghe on the same platform on September 5, but the talks did not yield any result with both sides merely stating their formal positions. The meeting took place after Indian Army troops pre-empted a PLA aggression on south of Pangong Tso on August 29-30 and occupied the Rezang La ridgeline without either yielding to Chinese show of military strength or allowing them to cross the Indian perception of Line of Actual Control (LAC).
....
Gautam

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby AshishA » 08 Sep 2020 01:28

abhik wrote:
AshishAcharya wrote:
Forced to take countermeasures in my opinion means a firefight has taken place there. But let's wait for official army statement. Gobar times cannot be trusted.

While we wait for official news :| , I think there might have been a firefight too - the counter to warning shots cannot be warning shots, you would have to actually attack or retreat.

I was thinking that something as important as this, shouldn't it be announced by Xinhua or CCP daily or something like that? Those news agency who are directly connected to the top? Why let a trash/propaganda news agency like Global Times (acc to Chinese) publish it?

Unless it was meant for Indian public as many Indians follow the Global Times handle.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby k prasad » 08 Sep 2020 01:33

abhik wrote:^^^
Will have to wait to know what the "countermeasures" were.


Countermeasures means the PLA patrols made a tactical withdrawal (they ran) to base to effect a change in equipment (aka Chaddies).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Lisa » 08 Sep 2020 01:35

In essence, if one reads between the lines, the chinese are huffing and puffing threatening to bring our house down. What they cannot understand is that this has worked everywhere else but not here. Why? Because we have build a Pukka house. Thank you Mr Modi.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby IndraD » 08 Sep 2020 01:39

looks like some tactics to build pressure on Jaishankar before meet?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Anujan » 08 Sep 2020 01:44

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1303055711320956928?s=20

Incident of firing took place on the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Eastern Ladakh sector where troops of India and China have been engaged in a stand-off for over three months. More details awaited: Sources


ANI

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby g.sarkar » 08 Sep 2020 01:46

Anujan wrote:I dont understand what "illegally crossing the LAC" means when they are not ready to exchange maps about their claim lines.
Their ambassador to India is on record saying that clear delineation of lines is not possible in the interest of peace and tranquility. Then what are they complaining about?

China is the Middle Kingdom. The whole universe revolves around China. The old days the Chinese emperor used to write to the kings of vassal states with "Tremblingly obey and show no negligence". Eleven is the new Chinese emperor, the world has to tremble and obey.
Gautam
Last edited by g.sarkar on 08 Sep 2020 01:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby abhik » 08 Sep 2020 01:47

IndraD wrote:looks like some tactics to build pressure on Jaishankar before meet?

"Graded escalation" is the phrase I read somewhere, they will definitely want to get some leverage before the Wednesday meeting.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby hnair » 08 Sep 2020 01:47

Got to state the obvious - much as the PRC wants us to believe they are the senior partners, it is obvious it is the Pakis who are commanding the mighty China’s military in Tibet to serve their Kashmir fixation and even setting the foreign policies with regards to India

Even something like downhill skiing when fired in the air by IA is being done as per Paki army SOP. And the face saving rush to Moscow reminds one of Badmash’s dash to DC

A huge fall from tall claims and strutting around Indo-China Sea. Not to mention the billions being bled every week in economic domino effect. Not even khan at its dumbest let the Pakis have this much freedom on their dollars :lol:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby vimal » 08 Sep 2020 01:55

It seems like India and China have swapped positions now they are talking about the sanctity of LAC and complete disengagement while we seem to be happy to bide our time and fire shots at them as we please. Only solution is to capture more territory and push the Hans back.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby williams » 08 Sep 2020 01:59

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/1303057245773524992?s=20
BREAKING: There’s been an incident of firing between troops of India & China along the LAC in eastern Ladakh, reports
quoting govt sources, who say the situation has been brought under control. (Possibly warning shots both sides, details awaited)

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Kakarat » 08 Sep 2020 02:06

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/13 ... 6745694208
The Flag of China PLA Western Theatre Command says there’s been a face-off in/near the Shenpao mountain with warning shots by Flag of IndiaArmy. Precise location unclear, and unless mistaken, it’s on the shore somewhere in that Heavy large circle. Usual disclaimers on Chinese claims apply, of course.
@IndiaToday


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby k prasad » 08 Sep 2020 02:17

Looks like a possible attempt by PLA to take some positions along the Helmet Top ridgeline, strengthen their positions on the approach to Thakung.


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