Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

basant · Post by **basant** » 19 Jan 2021 21:52

^^^
IIRC, they have been deployed elsewhere courtesy LAC.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Jan 2021 22:21

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 79296?s=20 --->

To ensure the timely delivery of Tejas MK1A. A penalty clause has been added into the contract.

- In an event of on time delivery failure, 10% penalty can be imposed on HAL.
- Also inflation of that year will not be counted.

HAL CMD Mr. R Madhavan

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Jan 2021 22:41

Group Captain HV Thakur (retd) Sir in the first picture...

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/135 ... 98660?s=20 ---> Beauty and beast in same soul.

https://twitter.com/DefProdnIndia/statu ... 67204?s=20 ---> Shri Raj Kumar, Secretary, Department of Defence Production visited HAL facilities in Bengaluru on January 16, 2021.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Jan 2021 22:50

Excellent news...

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 40481?s=20 ---> HAL will be delivering five more FOC Tejas Mk1 aircraft to the IAF by end of March: HAL Chief.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Jan 2021 22:52

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 76000?s=20 ---> 83 Tejas MK1A Deal

1. Base price of 83 MK1A: ₹ 26,145 crore
2. ADA consultation charges: ₹ 800 crore
3. Maintenance/spares: ₹ 8,000 crore
4. Technical Training: ₹ 600 crore
5. GSE/GHE: ₹ 1,202 crore
6. Central Taxes: ₹ 9,000 crore

TOTAL: ₹ 45,696 crore

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 19 Jan 2021 23:47

HAL Tejas Deal: We Are Confident We Will Be Able To Deliver 16 Aircraft Annually- R Madhavan

Full Interview of CNBCTV18.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxpRZLq ... e=youtu.be

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Jan 2021 23:59

Eventually, it will be announced.
So no need to probe.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 20 Jan 2021 00:00

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 76000?s=20 ---> 83 Tejas MK1A Deal

1. Base price of 83 MK1A: ₹ 26,145 crore
2. ADA consultation charges: ₹ 800 crore
3. Maintenance/spares: ₹ 8,000 crore
4. Technical Training: ₹ 600 crore
5. GSE/GHE: ₹ 1,202 crore
6. Central Taxes: ₹ 9,000 crore

TOTAL: ₹ 45,696 crore

Good to know the breakup. So base price is around 4 billion USD for 83 frames. Or roughly 50 million USD per craft. So much for “costs more than acquiring su30” etc being floated around by that Angry Bird-colonel!

hemant_sai · Post by **hemant_sai** » 20 Jan 2021 00:46

Can anyone confirm if order of 160 mk1A would have push per aircraft base price to 30-35M USD?
If yes then it is not really fair to make so much of fuss about per aircraft price.

But if even 160 will only reduce it to 40-45M then can we call it bit on higher side than it should be?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jan 2021 01:18

nam wrote:50% by value. That is 134 system cost half of of the cost. I guess replacing radar and jammer will increase to 65%.

At present, only 50 per cent of the jet is made in India, while the engine and the latest radar — called AESA — come from the US and Israel, respectively.

Currently, the aircraft has around 344 systems fitted in it and 210 systems are indigenous and 134 of them are imported, said a senior functionary.
I wonder if the list, includes weapons like Derby/Python/R73?

There is the cost break down. The 134 imported sub-systems constitute 50 % of the cost of Tejas Mk1A.
The plan is for Uttam radar from the 20th jet onwards.
Need to do something about the engine cost.

Can someone post the map of the 344 systems and their location to get an idea?

nam, weapons system is extra.
Gun is included with the plane.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Jan 2021 01:25

Ramana-ji, I do not know about all 344 systems, but this was posted before in this thread. Not sure if this helps, but FWIW....

1) Auto cannon from Russia (licensed produced by OFB)
2) Ejection seat from Britain
3) IFR probe from Britain
4) Radome from Britain
5) Engine from America
6) SDR from Israel
7) AESAR from Israel (to be switched to Uttam)

IMVHO, #5 (the heart of the plane) and #7 (the brains of the plane) are most important.

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 84515?s=20 ---> Indigenous content in Tejas Mk1 is around 59%, It is expected to cross 60% mark in the MK-1A variant.

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 68066?s=20 ---> BTW, the content level is in value terms.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jan 2021 02:24

It does. Thanks.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jan 2021 02:28

Big-ticket items are
- Engine US,
- Radar Israel,
- SDR Israel (No plans to change),
- Ejection seat UK, (No plans to change)
- IFR probe, UK (no plans to change)

The radome is Cobham design and India produced.

The engine is most problematic after the Biden administration.
Especially if the slow bureaucracy delays placing the order with GE.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jan 2021 02:29

This is what I meant three years wasted by petty fogging.

viewtopic.php?p=2479847#p2479847

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 20 Jan 2021 04:45

It is sad, we could have engine deal done during trump presidency (and also produced some 20-40 LCA MK1A) by now, but for the petty Brown Sahibs with their subterfuge, ego bigger than any race/people in the world and perhaps a dose of fine wish that project dies and western maal is imported (with the attended malai).

The few possible way we can mitigate any sanction is as follows. Either way, the inlet design will have to change. But if sanctions are coming, it sucks, but it is worth the effort.
- Make more of LCA mk1a (and not mk2) as many engines have similar performance as F404 (not F414)
Use M-88 - Almost same performance as F404, but more advanced and lighter (190kg lighter) and smaller - Will be more costly and is 10% lesser afterburner thrust than F404IN20 (but dry thrust is same). Means longer runways, lesser payload, but more loiter time.
Eurojet ej2000 - Again same weight class, midway between F404 and f414 (more towards F414). The LCAmk1a will be a rocket with this engine, but Mk2 will be on the slower side. The dry thrust is way more than f404 and also more than f414. AB thrust, shy of F414.
RD-33 (mIG 29 ENGINE) - Lousy performer, similar dry thrust but lower afterburner thrust as compared to F404. Not recommended, but we do license manufacture it. Not recommended
SU30MKI engine - Lousy, but performance-wise 1.5 times of these engines. Basically, we make J-10 (which is F-16 of PLAAF), but LCA (actually will be bigger than MWF) is in all aspect will be better than J-10.

The situation is ugly but not hopeless. The knight in the shining armor could be other option if other companies are willing to develop 110 KN engine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y5_ohQ-eD0

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 20 Jan 2021 06:45

ramana wrote:
Mollick.R wrote:Good to see that media giving the legend publicity and due respect.
(Video Published on Jan 14, 2021)
He deserves his moment of glory as the Tejas production order is signed.

perhaps a campaign for him to be nominated for bharat ratna would be a small tribute to his contributions!

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 20 Jan 2021 06:48

fanne wrote:It is sad, we could have engine deal done during trump presidency (and also produced some 20-40 LCA MK1A) by now, but for the petty Brown Sahibs with their subterfuge, ego bigger than any race/people in the world and perhaps a dose of fine wish that project dies and western maal is imported (with the attended malai).

The few possible way we can mitigate any sanction is as follows. Either way, the inlet design will have to change. But if sanctions are coming, it sucks, but it is worth the effort.
- Make more of LCA mk1a (and not mk2) as many engines have similar performance as F404 (not F414)
Use M-88 - Almost same performance as F404, but more advanced and lighter (190kg lighter) and smaller - Will be more costly and is 10% lesser afterburner thrust than F404IN20 (but dry thrust is same). Means longer runways, lesser payload, but more loiter time.
Eurojet ej2000 - Again same weight class, midway between F404 and f414 (more towards F414). The LCAmk1a will be a rocket with this engine, but Mk2 will be on the slower side. The dry thrust is way more than f404 and also more than f414. AB thrust, shy of F414.
RD-33 (mIG 29 ENGINE) - Lousy performer, similar dry thrust but lower afterburner thrust as compared to F404. Not recommended, but we do license manufacture it. Not recommended
SU30MKI engine - Lousy, but performance-wise 1.5 times of these engines. Basically, we make J-10 (which is F-16 of PLAAF), but LCA (actually will be bigger than MWF) is in all aspect will be better than J-10.

The situation is ugly but not hopeless. The knight in the shining armor could be other option if other companies are willing to develop 110 KN engine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y5_ohQ-eD0

fanne ji wont engine change be a major update requiring a lot more testing and pushing timelines further down the road. Any option is at least 5-10 years down the lane. Till that time if sanctions are coming then we have a bigger screw up on C130, C17, Mk45, drones and other areas. Till that time if things go as planned, we will have at around 100 LCAs.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 20 Jan 2021 08:16

The game can be played in many ways. My view is that there will be no sanction - low probability but high impact.
If they want non-Hindu rights to be imposed on India (just a more sophisticated policy of what Auranzeb followed), they will delay, huff and puff, make spares rare for c130,c17....but that is also not more likely.
They have just made 50% of us population as damastic atankwadi - They will be more busy with that.

srai · Post by **srai** » 20 Jan 2021 08:35

hnair wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 76000?s=20 ---> 83 Tejas MK1A Deal

1. Base price of 83 MK1A: ₹ 26,145 crore
2. ADA consultation charges: ₹ 800 crore
3. Maintenance/spares: ₹ 8,000 crore
4. Technical Training: ₹ 600 crore
5. GSE/GHE: ₹ 1,202 crore
6. Central Taxes: ₹ 9,000 crore

TOTAL: ₹ 45,696 crore
Good to know the breakup. So base price is around 4 billion USD for 83 frames. Or roughly 50 million USD per craft. So much for “costs more than acquiring su30” etc being floated around by that Angry Bird-colonel!

Those breakdown came from a follow-up article by the Colonel. He must have got a lot of flak from his initial statement.

Here’s the follow up article:
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2021/01/at-4 ... rk-1a.html

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Jan 2021 10:39

Rakesh wrote:Group Captain HV Thakur (retd) Sir in that picture...

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/135 ... 98660?s=20 ---> Beauty and beast in same soul.

What no hinges, JF17B hinges get compared only to uber Rafale not humble Tejas Hain ji. That too with the heavy 22mm glass requirement of IAF.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 20 Jan 2021 11:20

Even the SDR will be replaced by a desi radio later on. IAF process for SDR induction everywhere is glacial but it is happening.

mody · Post by **mody** » 20 Jan 2021 18:32

ramana wrote:
nam wrote:50% by value. That is 134 system cost half of of the cost. I guess replacing radar and jammer will increase to 65%.

I wonder if the list, includes weapons like Derby/Python/R73?
There is the cost break down. The 134 imported sub-systems constitute 50 % of the cost of Tejas Mk1A.
The plan is for Uttam radar from the 20th jet onwards.
Need to do something about the engine cost.

Can someone post the map of the 344 systems and their location to get an idea?

nam, weapons system is extra.
Gun is included with the plane.

Ramana Sir, any reference for the Uttam AESA likely to replace the Elta 2052 after the first 20 planes?
If we can get the Uttam AESA on the MK1A, that will be the real game changer. Indigenous engine is not going to come for the MK1A, but an indigenous jammer and EW suite, AESA radar and SDR are a possibility.
I had written on the last page as well, the avioinics, radar, EW/ECS and weapons suite for the Tejas should be completely indigenous. With the Uttam AESA, under development EW suite and jammer from DARE, Astra family AAMs and all the other air to ground PGMs can make this happen. The exact timeline is the only question.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Jan 2021 00:55

The next generation of torch bearers to continue the tradition of supporting Indian maal via the written word.

Tejas: The Ultimate Gamechanger For IAF
https://kreately.in/tejas-the-ultimate- ... r-for-iaf/
By Udit Tripathi, 20 Jan 2021

https://twitter.com/i_udit_t/status/135 ... 51139?s=20 ---> My article on Tejas. Tried to cover the Tejas programme in a simplified language. It couldn't have been possible without reading the works of @Firezstarter1, @Indrani1_Roy, @nileshjrane, @KSingh_1469. Also special thanks to @Firezstarter1 for personal guidance and motivation.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 41728?s=20 ---> The new torch bearers for Tejas. Read. Also, he's being kind, the entire article is his, through and through.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 21 Jan 2021 00:58

rakesh ji can you please put the firestarter's article here..

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Jan 2021 00:59

It is not Firestarter's article, but Udit Narayan's. Also not fair use of copyright laws to copy an entire article without asking for permission.

Is the link not working?

bharathp · Post by **bharathp** » 21 Jan 2021 01:50

mody wrote:
Ramana Sir, any reference for the Uttam AESA likely to replace the Elta 2052 after the first 20 planes?
If we can get the Uttam AESA on the MK1A, that will be the real game changer. Indigenous engine is not going to come for the MK1A, but an indigenous jammer and EW suite, AESA radar and SDR are a possibility.
I had written on the last page as well, the avioinics, radar, EW/ECS and weapons suite for the Tejas should be completely indigenous. With the Uttam AESA, under development EW suite and jammer from DARE, Astra family AAMs and all the other air to ground PGMs can make this happen. The exact timeline is the only question.

it is from the post here:

LakshmanPST wrote:https://twitter.com/CNBCTV18News/status ... 56002?s=19

He also said that Uttam is expected to be used instead of ELTA 2052 starting from 20th jet...
So, in the worst case, first 2 squadrons of Tejas Mk1A will have ELTA 2052 and last 2 squadrons will have Uttam...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jan 2021 05:53

LakshmanPST wrote:https://twitter.com/CNBCTV18News/status ... 56002?s=19

He also said that Uttam is expected to be used instead of ELTA 2052 starting from 20th jet...
So, in the worst case, first 2 squadrons of Tejas Mk1A will have ELTA 2052 and last 2 squadrons will have Uttam...

Here you go.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jan 2021 05:58

Only engine, ejection seat, refueling probe and some sundries will be imported in the end.

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 21 Jan 2021 06:33

ramana wrote:Only engine, ejection seat, refueling probe and some sundries will be imported in the end.

I remember reading that we did develop our own ejection seat which was tested and approved by martin baker. Anyone knows what happened?

basant · Post by **basant** » 21 Jan 2021 09:24

^^^
Never heard of any indigenous program/effort towards ejection seat.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Jan 2021 09:42

This 9k crore as tax is very funny MoF->MoD(HAL)->MoF, the GoI doesnt even need to release the money just three ledger entries.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 21 Jan 2021 10:26

Not that simple it's a plethora of vendors, whose subvendors etc etc. If Tejas is tax exempt then any telephone supplier or Hotel room related this will have to made exempt as GST credit will not be available. Compiling with this will be headache for everyone involved
This is probably the easiest solution out there

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Jan 2021 10:42

Thanks AdityaV garu

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 21 Jan 2021 13:28

rajsunder wrote:
ramana wrote:Only engine, ejection seat, refueling probe and some sundries will be imported in the end.
I remember reading that we did develop our own ejection seat which was tested and approved by martin baker. Anyone knows what happened?

It got ejected!!!

vcsekhar · Post by **vcsekhar** » 21 Jan 2021 14:48

Aditya_V wrote:Not that simple it's a plethora of vendors, whose subvendors etc etc. If Tejas is tax exempt then any telephone supplier or Hotel room related this will have to made exempt as GST credit will not be available. Compiling with this will be headache for everyone involved
This is probably the easiest solution out there

I can second this, we make several electronic components that are used by HAL and other organizations and during excise time it used to be a pain dealing with their "Exempt" status. These days I don't hear of the same problem with GST, so I guess they are not exempt anymore which is good for manufacturers.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 21 Jan 2021 17:43

I'm a little dismayed by the talk of sanctions for US engines. Those kind of sanctions are a thing of past.

If biden administration is unhappy with Modi admin - they will not sanction military supplies (it will lose them money and play loose with Pentagon's long term plan on Asia pivot). Also they wont matter to Modi admin. No one will vote out a govt because LCAs got delayed. Punitive action if at all will come in form of Trade restrictions. e.g. US still gives India some favorable trade access, only given to very poor nations. That kind of punitive action in trade, investments and international diplomacy (like India's observer status in G8) are better punishment options.

So we can safely assume, LCA engine supply if at all threatened - will be some business move not a policy move from US Govt. LCA engine supplies are safe. Miltech denial for India is a thing of past, largely. This India is different, also She lives in a different world.

basant · Post by **basant** » 21 Jan 2021 18:46

Probably the first talk of Shiv?

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 22 Jan 2021 00:44

srai wrote:
...

3. Maintenance running list of spares : Rs 8,000 crore
4. Technical training schools : Rs 600 crore
5. GSE/GHE : Rs 1,202 crore

This would be from operational experience with a squadron of Mk.1 IOC over the last 4-years.

Not for Item #5 , that number came from some other experienced person input.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 22 Jan 2021 03:56

ramana wrote:
Haridas wrote:First base we know, second base ???
Brilliant move for it ensures aircraft availability and gives the user control over aircraft maintenance. Finally boosts IAF maintenance command capabilities.

Its like attached Base Repair Depot at each of the two airbase.

One more thing is Tejas has any LRUs which can be swapped as plug and play. This also cuts the repair downtime something got being thought about!

Having IAF BRD will keep HAL aircraft servicing honest on quality and service standards. Also it should satisfy IAF pilots concern about HAL service quality. Win win

BRD civilian staff need to be upgraded with constant importance on their quality of work that pilots trust to put their life on it, and productivity that is at least 7 hrs per day (ok just reduce chai cafee from current 5 hrs to 1 hr). But BRD is 100% IAF officers and perhaps 30% men, has better infrastructure to enforce decipline on all men.

D.Mahesh · Post by **D.Mahesh** » 22 Jan 2021 08:42

basant wrote:Probably the first talk of Shiv?

Excellent