Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Feb 2021 01:04

Mody, The argument for more planes is to carry the war to the opponent. SAM reduces the need for large number of dedicated air defence planes.

So SAM is needed but does not reduce the squadrons as needs have gone up due to active LAC.

Like your options of Mk1A+Rafale.
But MK1A has short range.
Am thinking islands defence/offence.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 05 Feb 2021 05:47

After the Indian Air Force order for Tejas, HAL to export LCA Mk1A.

A day after the order for 83 Light Combat Aircraft `Tejas’ for the Indian Air Force (IAF) was handed over to the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL, stage is getting set for the export of these indigenous fighter jets. On day two of the 13th edition of Aero-India 2021, R Madhavan, chairman of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), said that “Countries from the Middle East and Southeast Asia have expressed their interest in the indigenous LCA `Tejas’ Mk 1A fighter at a vanilla price of just Rs 309 crore per aircraft.”

In an interaction with the media persons on the sideline, the HAL CMD said that as countries from Southeast Asia and West Asia East have evinced interest, the export version will be a bit different from what IAF is going to get.”

According to the CMD, “The is cost of Rs 309 crore is the cheapest and the aircraft will be exported at this price, though the cost will be a bit extra because bases and the services we will be providing overseas.”

What’s inside the LCA Mark 1A

The aircraft comes with the same airframe and engine as the Mark 1. The Mark IA is equipped with AESA radar which is from Israel, Electronic Warfare suite, there is a much better pilot machine interface.

Also, a state of the art ‘fly by wire’ system which according to a former aviator would be the envy of the aviation world.

The weapons on board are a mixture of indigenous as well as imported.

For instance, the radar which has been bought off the shelf from Israel is also behind some parts for the EW suite and has been integrated to perform optimally and indigenously.

Also, most upgrades for Mk 1A have been developed in house which also includes the FBW — this gives the pilot the capability of handling through the ALSR (Advanced Auto Low-Speed Recovery).

It has capability to fire Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles, bombs and precision-guided munitions.

More about the 83 fighters for IAF

Breaking down the entire package for 83 fighters for IAF, the CMD explained: “The contract is for around Rs 48,000 crore. However, it will come down to just around Rs 36,000 if the tax component and escalation in foreign exchange is taken away.”

“The way the calculation is being done is wrong. Take out the taxes and duty, and increase in foreign exchange brings the total cost to just Rs 25,150 crore,” the CMD explained.

Breaking it down further the CMD stated, “If you calculate the taxes and customs duty it works out to around Rs 9,200 crore, and then you add another Rs 11,000 crore which is for the ground equipment which will take the chunk, spares, training aides and manuals, and other expenses.”

How much will one LCA `Tejas’ cost?

According to him, cost per aircraft is Rs 309 crore. The cost of the trainer is around Rs 280 crore. The countries which have reached out have found this cost to be the cheapest for the four and a half generation aircraft.”

Financial Express Online has reported earlier that countries including Malaysia, Indonesia, Sri Lanka are among those who have evinced interests in these fighters and the HAL is also planning to set logistics facilities to attract buyers from the region.

Davidrock · Post by **Davidrock** » 05 Feb 2021 06:31

I saw the aerobatics of Tejas and I still feel that there are some comparable aircrafts which have better manouver. Like climbing immediately after take off etc. Is there a software that is restricting this. As tejas has better specs than those aircraft, we should demonstrate that to our potential customers. Any thoughts ?

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 05 Feb 2021 07:33

^^^^ huh? the low takeoff and sharp liftoff at the end of the runway was deliberate, to give the audience time to appreciate the aircraft. You think an aircraft that has does carrier sorties can't climb?

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 05 Feb 2021 07:37

The official and public evidence of 42 sqdn no. appears in early 2000s. That was at a time when
1. IAF was mostly Mig 21, 23 and 27s, Su 30s were just entering IAF and mirage 2000 & mig 29 were the tip of spear
2. IAADS was nowhere on horizon (although greenpine and LRTR was under works in long shadow)
3. Desi MIC was in poor shape leading to poor availbility rates of fighters (Su 30 was around 50% until 2015 as most of spares did not have inventories)
4. Proliferation of drone warfare

5.a China was realized to be true enemy but the twin front war threat was neither forecasted nor planned (GF statement around 98 soon after P2). Galwan did not happen and the visible desire to take fight to china was not there as is evident from now through MSCs. That would need air cover too

5.b 26/11 hadnt happened and the requirements of CAS for cold start were not finalized/operationalized.
6. The aerial blitzkrieg, while always within the reach of IAF, was not thoroughly tested and demonstrated in large scale exercises. So requirements internal requirements were not finalized
7. Our ISR was not of the order of magnitude that it is today through the ISRO satellites. Basically more targets now (PK barbora saying 5k targets in paxtan)
8. Chinese navy had not forayed into IOR including africa, SL etc. String of pearls was just on paper and we were getting to hear this only

So 1,2,3,4 reduce requirements from an attrition point of view for fighter jets but 4 onwards drastically increase the requirements esp with Chinese, an enemy with very good manufacturing base that is beyond the range of most fighters and can appear at a vast Sea, and land space in an area that has huge mountains providing natural cover complemented by bad weather.
So even with enhanced capability our requirements, IMHO, should at least remain same, if not increase. Even with drones, hepters, fighter jets of different types have a critical role.

IAF does not reach/approach the 42 sqdn figure without either MRCA or another production line of tejas.
My order of preference if it matters at all is to complement the the IAF inventory in 2030s (13 MKI, 6 MK1/Mk1As, 2 Mirage 2000s, 4 Mig 29, 2 rafale ) assuming 21 in a sqdn: total 27 sqdns
> acq (4) of existing types: 2 sqdn rafale, 2 sqdn mig 29, Desi: potential mk2 deliveries, Mk 2: 3/4 sqdns. : Total 35 sqdns.
Now that still leaves 5-6 sqdns. One can say that with Hawk/drone weaponization and stand off weapons we will manage low end of threat spectrum and reduce attrition but that still is a stop gap measure.
Potential ways to fulfill is to have additional 5-6 sqdns is
> additional tejas lines to keep churning more Mk1s without burdening Fx and creating jobs and capabilities in desh only. Any type, Mk1/1A, 2, TEDBF/ORCA etc
>acquisition of More rafales.
> F35: has potential impact on AMCA. Shuts the door for PAKFA, Which means end of russian cooperation if there is any. Has good capability but less likely for navy. wing size quite high so carrier synergy not possible
> F-teens (15 Ex or 18). Synergy with navy for F18.
Out of the above options, tejas based options make more sense to me as they can be ramped up easily without any fear of corruption, does not blwo a hole in pocket from either acqusition or operating point, do not add to the jungle, makes a stronger case for testing our own engines.
Unless somethign comes off the shelf, has political advantages or offers some unique capabilities, that we can't make we would be better off leasing stuff rather than buying.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Feb 2021 07:43

This coming from the Chief himself is amazing. Not the title of the article, but the quote.

Rafale has caused worries in China's camp, says IAF Chief
https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india/ ... ria-682651
04 Feb 2021

On how LCA Tejas induction will help squadron strength of Air Force, he said, "With LCA induction, we have arrested the slide of the number of squadrons depleting and we've now reversed it to start increasing back. We are going to start upwards 30 squadrons now."

Tejas is arresting the slide or squadron shortage. Think of the significance of this and from who it is coming from. An issue that has been plaguing the IAF since the early 2000s.

Not 12 Su-30MKIs or 21 MiG-29s or even 36 Rafales. They obviously all help, but Tejas is addressing the shortage. T-E-J-A-S!

Tejas will be India's mass produced 4+ generation fighter to be acquired in triple digits and in multiple variants.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 05 Feb 2021 13:03

Irrespective of what stalwarts on brf opine about the necessity of 42 sqds, the IAF seems to keen on it:

"The IAF vice chief has informed that target has been fixed to reach a level of 42 squadrons," the report of the Standing Committee on Defence, said.

Now as far as the practicality of such a desire goes, I'm not sure either. But if that's what they think is needed, I'll defer to their planners. And they're is plenty of merit in numbers.

Ultimately, if it becomes a 2 front "aar-paar ki ladhai" it'll be an attrition game and numbers will matter. All fancy drone swarms notwithstanding. you can expect plaaf to start positioning fighters in tsp territory. that will easily offset they're inability to bring in numbers from the north.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Feb 2021 13:18

We on BRF would like 60 or 70 squadrons and a no contest wars but the funding and practically are what matter, IAF wants more Rafales and probably know they cannot get another 114 but want to keep these going for being politically correct, avoid single vendor situations etc.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Feb 2021 13:33

Aditya-V

Its quite complex. There is a gap that needs to be filled in affordable and timely manner. Its not just aircraft numbers but quality of aircraft.

To understand it we need to time phase the draw down and phase in of the aircraft. And keep a total tally. While doing this need to keep eye on the threats.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Feb 2021 13:33

we will take it up in IAF thread. Will transfer all relevant posts there.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Feb 2021 18:17

A fatal &flaw inthe Tejas export ointment." Only after IAF orders are met.What's stopping HAL for having one extra dedicated line for export of 1As
at the ROP of 16/18/yr.
From given details, an LCA Mk-1A will cost upwards of $42M. This is highly competitive pricewise and capabilitywise compared to current western fighters.
Production on a 3rd.HAL line or one in the pvt. sector. Mass producing the 1A with its AESA radar,etc., in large qtys.,will allow for faster deliveries,negating to an extent the Parliamentary Committe on Security', observations about the 3 decade delay in
its arrival.Assuming that there are 3 lines,with MKI production ending v.soon.

If HAL build at speed MK-1As, the vanilla Mk-1A could play a role similar to the legendary MIG- 21 / Gnat and find many willing countries wanting an inexpensive light fighter.
One unknown detail is the maintenance and turnaround time for Tejas,how easy it is to operate and maintain in the field. Engine replacement time for instance. The cost/ hr. of flying time,etc., have to be better than rivals from aero majors who may be better enginered than Tejas.

A plus point with Tejas though is that it will come with desi weaponry,which by known info will be highly competitive to western weaponry.Astra, BMos-NG, plus our menu of glide bombs,ARMs, the newly revealed CATS UCAV pluus drone swarms ,etc., all desi- developed systems, will make for a v.attractive package. It can still carry a wide range of firang milware should the buyer desire it.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 06 Feb 2021 12:08

@Indranil ,
ADA brochure gives for Tejas mk1

Empty weight 7040kg
Clean takeoff weight 10330kg
External Payload 3910 kg

From the above figures both empty weight and clean take of weight have gone up by 500kg and MTOW of 14240kg.

Is it true or a mistake were empty equipped weight of 7040 kg is taken as empty weight and messes up clean takeoff weight also.

nam · Post by **nam** » 06 Feb 2021 16:13

DRDO has setup LSP3 with Uttam and probably internal EW(D29?) . HAL will setup another LSP with 2052 & EL8022.

So there will be two prototype fundamentally competing with the MK1A setup to get to the finish line!

I don't see any D29 antennas like Mig29 on LSP3. So either it will test DARE EW pod and DRDO just means Uttam, when it says "indigenous electronics".

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Feb 2021 22:47

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/135 ... 20289?s=20 ---> “LCA Tejas no longer just an indigenous project we need to support, but something that provides a strong capability enhancement to the IAF.”

Lots of excellent messaging here by the IAF chief in this interview to @RahulSinghx.

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 07 Feb 2021 00:05

Air cheifs short interview with Tarmak. really nice gesture by the cheif to thank Anantha for the dedication he has shown to cover Tejas( at the end)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfQKsfCQPlI

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 07 Feb 2021 12:30

Philip wrote:A fatal &flaw inthe Tejas export ointment." Only after IAF orders are met.What's stopping HAL for having one extra dedicated line for export of 1As
at the ROP of 16/18/yr.
From given details, an LCA Mk-1A will cost upwards of $42M. This is highly competitive pricewise and capabilitywise compared to current western fighters.
Production on a 3rd.HAL line or one in the pvt. sector. Mass producing the 1A with its AESA radar,etc., in large qtys.,will allow for faster deliveries,negating to an extent the Parliamentary Committe on Security', observations about the 3 decade delay in
its arrival.Assuming that there are 3 lines,with MKI production ending v.soon.

If HAL build at speed MK-1As, the vanilla Mk-1A could play a role similar to the legendary MIG- 21 / Gnat and find many willing countries wanting an inexpensive light fighter.
One unknown detail is the maintenance and turnaround time for Tejas,how easy it is to operate and maintain in the field. Engine replacement time for instance. The cost/ hr. of flying time,etc., have to be better than rivals from aero majors who may be better enginered than Tejas.

A plus point with Tejas though is that it will come with desi weaponry,which by known info will be highly competitive to western weaponry.Astra, BMos-NG, plus our menu of glide bombs,ARMs, the newly revealed CATS UCAV pluus drone swarms ,etc., all desi- developed systems, will make for a v.attractive package. It can still carry a wide range of firang milware should the buyer desire it.

So for export order of say 18 Tejas-1A build another parallel production line?
Paisa kiska grandfather daygaa? Simple pooch onlee.

kit · Post by **kit** » 07 Feb 2021 14:00

Indeed no one builds another line just for exports. Not even the US. Witness their longest running program with the F16s. Its simply not economical nor desirable

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 07 Feb 2021 15:08

Does exporting LCA to a foreign country require that country to be cleared for export by US as well since it uses a GE engine? And by Israel for the Elta radar ?

What kind of technology solutions and agreement clauses must India put in place to prevent a foreign country from using Tejas against us some day?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 07 Feb 2021 20:02

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 45569?s=20 ---> Digital RWR derived from the one developed for AEW&CS, for the LCA program by DLRL. Interestingly enough, DARE was the usual RWR provider for the IAF, indicates we now have two labs which can take this up. Digital RWRs are software reprogrammable, can pick up advanced radars.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 07 Feb 2021 20:23

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 73635?s=20 ---> An MoU has been exchanged between DRDO and HAL to cooperate and finalise the aspects of ToTs of Uttam radar for new LCA configurations and new generation Radar Warning Receiver (RWR-NG).

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 07 Feb 2021 20:28

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 27553?s=20 ---> List of foreign dignitaries who flew in India' HAL Tejas:

1) Singapore defence minister
2) USAF Chief
3) French AF Chief
4) Bangladesh AF Chief

In addition, a Russian test pilot also flew in Tejas.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 07 Feb 2021 20:32

https://twitter.com/Mave_Intel/status/1 ... 13824?s=20 ---> Bangladesh Air Force Chief in LCA Tejas KH-T 2010

Photo by Team Photo 1.

sajaym · Post by **sajaym** » 07 Feb 2021 21:29

Guys, a techno-financial pooch -- I suspect that a lot of kit can be taken off from the LCA to make it more affordable for garib log like Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Vietnam etc. So what would it be?? Derby missile? LDP? Aerial refuelling? Data links? SDRs?

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 07 Feb 2021 21:46

sajaym wrote:Guys, a techno-financial pooch -- I suspect that a lot of kit can be taken off from the LCA to make it more affordable for garib log like Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Vietnam etc. So what would it be?? Derby missile? LDP? Aerial refuelling? Data links? SDRs?

Without any of those things, what is the point of buying the plane? They would be better off with something like Hawk-i, and in any case they don't have any adversaries on the horizon that they would need to fight with something like LCA. Vietnam is the exception here, and can probably afford and use a fully capable MK1A or MK2.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 08 Feb 2021 14:56

Well done to ADA, HAL , IAF and all the other private and public players.
Most of all Congratulations to all the BRFites.

After all these years I am gonna shuddup and say
Der Aaye , Durrust Ayye.

@Admiral Rakesh
An 18 year old was opened on the weekend as per the promise.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Feb 2021 23:45

Khalsa wrote:@Admiral Rakesh
An 18 year old was opened on the weekend as per the promise.

Damn this COVID, otherwise I would have joined you.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Feb 2021 23:50

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 50560?s=20 ---> So, as surmised, number of TRMs used was correct (16 TRM linear array version). Can well be used for both the Tejas and Su-30 if ERP is high enough. Pic credit: DDR, VP Singh respectively.

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 21504?s=20 ---> Advanced Self Protection Jamming Pod (ASPJ) by DRDO's Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE).

* Uses 16 element active array T/R unit
* Air-cooled system
* Proto Manufactured
* Soon to begin testing with the IAF

AATRU can change the angular direction of its radiation pattern electronically by imposing a suitable phase shift among the radiating elements using phase shifter in each T/R Module.

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 94948?s=20 ---> And the 2nd POD is a Dual-Colour Missile Approach Warning System for the Su-30MKI. It is a modified HADF pod. Designed to protect aircraft from SAMs and AAMs. The spectral info of two colours is used to discriminate efficiently between sunlight reflections, BG radiation and radiation from missiles.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Feb 2021 00:04

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 37444?s=20 ---> Blast from the past: When US blocked Israel's plans to supply Elta 2052 AESA radar to India in early 2011. The block was later lifted in a few years. Now, EL-2052 radar has found it's way onboard Tejas Mk1As (initial batches) & Jaguar DARIN IIIs.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 09 Feb 2021 01:05

I think just like the Phalcon radar, the deal to sell China too was retracted under American pressure and some arrangement was worked around this time to sell it to India. That to me seems another reason why IAF might be keen on getting Uttam.

EL-2052 has an interesting history. It was tried on USAF F15I upgrade to replace AN/APG 62, under pressure from US it was not and upgrade was done through AN/APG 82V. Later on the rumours appeared that JF-17 radar had very similar specs to EL-2052.

Chinese Radar Strongly Resembles Israeli Product
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2015/08 ... i-product/

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 09 Feb 2021 01:05

Rakesh wrote: ttps://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/status/1358614525055037444?s=20 ---> Blast from the past: When US blocked Israel's plans to supply Elta 2052 AESA radar to India in early 2011. The block was later lifted in a few years. Now, EL-2052 radar has found it's way onboard Tejas Mk1As (initial batches) & Jaguar DARIN IIIs.

so much for ombaba diplomacy with mannu uncle!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Feb 2021 01:17

The date of that news piece (if I am reading the date format correctly) is 11 Jan 2011.

The technical down select in MMRCA 1.0 had still not yet occurred. That happened on 27 April 2011. The technical downselect was the rejection of the Gripen, the F-18, the F-16 and the MiG-35. Only the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale were left.

So if Wolfpack and Arie Egozi are reporting this, then connect the dots....

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 09 Feb 2021 01:34

ArjunPandit wrote:
EL-2052 has an interesting history. It was tried on USAF F15I upgrade to replace AN/APG 62, under pressure from US it was not and upgrade was done through AN/APG 82V. Later on the rumours appeared that JF-17 radar had very similar specs to EL-2052.

Israel selected the APG-82 (likely) for its F-15 upgrades but none have actually be purchased and definitely none have been installed yet. Israel has many electronics installed on its F-15 and F-16 aircraft and even has its own mission computer and software baseline giving it the ability to integrate its own weapons. The problems arise when it seeks to pay for things using US aid. There is no Elta radar currently of the size and performance of the AN/APG-82. If Israel wants to develop it, test and certify it it is not going to face opposition in doing so with its own money. However, it ties these upgrades to the annual defense aid so the US Congress is not going to approve an FMS case that is mostly fully funded by aid, that excludes US hardware and indirectly gets the US taxpayer to fund Israeli R&D at the expense of US systems. Why would they be willing to do that?

venkat_kv · Post by **venkat_kv** » 09 Feb 2021 02:43

ramana wrote:83 Tejas Mk1A contract signed at Aero India.

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1356823498862170112?s=19

late to the party, really great day for India.
Congrats to HAL, NAL, ADE IAF and a whole lot of small and big private and public sector companies toiling away even when there were no confirmed orders to get the plane up and flying through its paces.
People have been waiting for the official confirmation for a long time as well.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 09 Feb 2021 14:36

Rakesh wrote:
Khalsa wrote:@Admiral Rakesh
An 18 year old was opened on the weekend as per the promise.
Damn this COVID, otherwise I would have joined you.

One Day Sir One Day we will indeed.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 09 Feb 2021 20:29

Khalsa wrote:
Rakesh wrote: Damn this COVID, otherwise I would have joined you.
One Day Sir One Day we will indeed.

I've a 40yo received on my 40th waiting to be opened when delivery of first 40 is completed!

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 10 Feb 2021 21:43

Interview with Air Marshall Philip Rajkumar; MUST WATCH, do not miss!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geEA7EBpU5Q

Raman · Post by **Raman** » 10 Feb 2021 21:50

If anyone figures out where one can buy this book, please post it here.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/monograph/radia ... tejas-saga

(The "Download" link the above page only includes introductions, TOC, etc.)

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 10 Feb 2021 22:55

Raman wrote:If anyone figures out where one can buy this book, please post it here.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/monograph/radia ... tejas-saga

(The "Download" link the above page only includes introductions, TOC, etc.)

I got another book from an Exhibition , the likely process is through bank draft

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 11 Feb 2021 20:59

Belated Congratulations to the team LCA and the airforce.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 12 Feb 2021 01:23

A fairly large number of countries dont need all advanced features like full fledged AESA, integration with so many diverse weapons, ecm systems and so on. Countries like Myanmar, Bangladesh, Kenya, Peru and a few others which have air forces but no significant external threats can be potential customers. Air forces considering Jf-17 type of low quality or even Gripen can be enticed to a cheap Tejas with some extra features removed.

Of course its all counting chickens before hatching and all that, considering US engines, HAL and MoD.