Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Jan 2021 22:23

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 48800?s=20 ----> Report: IAF Tejas Mk1A to get integration with indigenous Garuthmaa/Garuda SOWs, which have already been integrated with Su-30MKI. While the Astra Mk2 (Mk1 initially) will provide Tejas Mk1A with a lethal BVR capability, these glide bombs will vastly enhance A2G strike capability.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Jan 2021 22:26

jamwal wrote:Do we know the squadrons to which the new Tejas will be assigned?

Jamwal Saab, your answer below....

sankum wrote:https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 61858?s=20 ---> IAF's No. 10 Sqn 'Daggers' & No. 29 Sqn 'Scorpions' among the top prospects for becoming the first two Tejas Mk1-A fighter squadrons.

Both operated MiG-27s in the past, before getting number plated.

No 29 Sqn, called Scorpios NOT Scorpions, was the last MiG-27 unit.
Link to No 29 Sqn History ---> https://www.facebook.com/IndianAirForce ... 689201912/

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 Jan 2021 23:17

High bloody time. Now for hal to keep it's end. Hopefully the irst requirement that's been added on at the last moment doesnt cause complications. Fingers crossed and looking to clear skies ahead.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 14 Jan 2021 23:39

where is the IRST requirement for MK1A? I believe it is for MK2. Many western fighters that do not have dedicated IRST, use the IR sensor of CCM to get some IR info (with limited FOV, range and resolution).

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Jan 2021 00:21

BTW, I have added this in page 1 of the thread. Gurus, please check for accuracy. Please advise of any errors. Thank You.

Avionics - Mk1 Variant
• Radar: Elta EL/M-2032 multi-mode all weather fire control radar with day and night capability.

Avionics - Mk1A Variant
• Radar: Elta EL/M-2052 AESA radar with EL/L-8222 ECM pod for initial production batch. Later production batches could feature LRDE's Uttam AESA radar and DARE's Unified Electronic Warfare Suite.

Armament
• Guns: One 23mm twin-barrel GSh-23 auto-cannon
• Close Combat Missiles: R-73, ASRAAM and Python 5
• Beyond Visual Range Missiles: Astra Mk1, Astra Mk2, I-Derby ER and R-77
• Rockets: TBD
• Air to Surface Missiles: TBD
• Anti-Radiation Missiles: TBD
• Anti-Ship Missiles: TBD
• Precision Guided Munitions: TBD
• Laser Guided Bombs: TBD
• Un-Guided/Gravity Bombs: TBD
• Cluster Munitions: TBD

disha · Post by **disha** » 15 Jan 2021 00:24

Congratulations to HAL, IAF, GOI, DRDO, ADA and everybody else who have kept the faith in Tejas since it began and flew first in 2001* !

Tejas LCA has morphed from a 3-legged Cheetah to a full-formed ferocious Tiger

IAF chief asked to compare India’s Tejas with China-Pak JF-17 jets
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 5-amp.html
14 Jan 2021

*In 2001, I did meet one of the person (retd. engineer) who worked on the design team of Tejas (he was in KH's team). He was happy that Tejas flew in 2001 and was skeptical that it will see FOC. I told him then that it will take at least a decade and most likely a decade and a half before it will come through. Oh, I was so optimistic then

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Jan 2021 00:33

https://twitter.com/KesariDhwaj/status/ ... 33474?s=20 --->

- WVR or CCM Astra version under development and to be used on Tejas Mk1A
- AESA based jammer
- Myriad of air-to-ground weapons

@MjaVinod with some great details associated with Tejas Mk1A order. Please do listen.

***VIDEO*** https://twitter.com/CNNnews18/status/13 ... 29638?s=20

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 15 Jan 2021 00:52

Will this order bring GE engine assembly to India?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Jan 2021 00:54

No, but would be nice.

An MRO (Maintenance, Repair & Overhaul) facility - for the GE F404 and F414 - would be even better. They can keep the single crystal blade technology under lock & key. It belongs to them anyway.

The F404 (and F414) is world class and IMVHO is the best. Every IAF officer - when asked - states that the engine is excellent. Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa Sir, Group MJA Vinod Sir, etc are just a few that come to mind.

If we can service that engine in India, it would be fabulous.

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 15 Jan 2021 01:02

GE has collaboration with TASL, hope they expand for all their products used in India
https://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/news ... ts-in.html

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 15 Jan 2021 01:16

Rakesh wrote:No, but would be nice.

An MRO (Maintenance, Repair & Overhaul) facility - for the GE F404 and F414 - would be even better. They can keep the single crystal blade technology under lock & key. It belongs to them anyway.

Why the whine about SCB tech ?
Is SU30MKI flying on jinn power made in HAL korba?

Engine tech is much more than SCB.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Jan 2021 01:24

Sirjee, not whining at all. The hot section of a turbofan is a company's crown jewel. We will never get it. So best not to dream of stuff, we will not get our hands on.

I do not buy HAL's claim that they are manufacturing the AL-31FP turbofan from raw materials. NPO Saturn will not part with that tech. If that really was the case, GTRE should have a workable flying prototype of the Kaveri.

I do not want to derail the thread, so we can continue discussion in the Kaveri thread if you choose.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 15 Jan 2021 02:55

jamwal wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1349703545231065091 ---> The actual unit cost of the Tejas Mk-1A is just north of Rs 300 crores, if you strip away ancillary allocations related to infrastructure etc. I will write a detailed piece as promised.

Sad to say but Ajai Shukla is posting stuff copied straight from posts of Paki trolls. Claiming 550 crore for Tejas and 430 for Su-30. He is losing all credibility with every article and tweet he writes.

'Suck' la does not know or willfully chooses not to mention that the total cost includes Simulators, Logistical support, Spares etc. There will be a guaranteed up time for IAF under the contract.

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 Jan 2021 03:31

...

• Laser Guided Bombs: TBD
• Un-Guided/Gravity Bombs: TBD

...

These are known.

LGB —> Griffin-3 kit on PB-500 and 1000lb Mk.11
Bombs —> 1000lb Mk.11, 250kg HSLD, 450kg HSLD, practice bombs

Also external tanks: 725ltr centerline, 800ltr and 1200ltr

Griffin-3 PB500

PB500 is a laser-guided bunker blaster and hard target bomb, with pinpoint accuracy and capable of penetrating 2 m of concrete

Griffin-3 1000lb Mk.11

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 15 Jan 2021 20:51

JayS wrote:A very subdued reaction here. I thought all lungies would be deployed, evil yindoo crackers would have made air black and Admiral would be ready with 6560kg mithai already.

Probably has a lot to do with the rather lack-luster performance of HAL on deliveries of FOC Tejas Mk1s. Once they start rolling off the production lines and taking to the air, the level of confidence of people in HAL's ability to deliver on schedule will go up.

Najunamar · Post by **Najunamar** » 15 Jan 2021 21:43

The less than enthusiastic response may be less to do with any apprehensions on HAL adherence to delivery schedule than a sense of this is a bit too little (hopefully not too late)- expectation was for more (quantities ordered) after the huge delays in inking the deal.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Jan 2021 22:44

Where on the Mk1A do they plan to deploy these 900 kg bombs? The stations closest to the fuselage to reduce moment loads?

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 48800?s=20 ----> Report: IAF Tejas Mk1A to get integration with indigenous Garuthmaa/Garuda SOWs, which have already been integrated with Su-30MKI. While the Astra Mk2 (Mk1 initially) will provide Tejas Mk1A with a lethal BVR capability, these glide bombs will vastly enhance A2G strike capability.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 15 Jan 2021 23:07

First of all congrats to all the people and organizations involved in the Tejas.

HAL's performance in delivery had dampened the mood but equally by the IAF changing the goalposts for accepting the FOC aircraft. Let's hope these issues are sorted at the earliest and FOC deliveries can speed up. All in all good progress but still the ink is missing on the paper.

Let's hope next in the line are Arjun, LCH, Namica, ATAGS orders.

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 15 Jan 2021 23:07

This picture of the vendors speaks a lot and fantastic! on how many vendors are included and also how focused LCA team is in identifying and managing the supply chain. This is really great news, and start of great era coming up for Indian Aviation industry aswell and along with missile and radar tech, for Military industrial complex in general.

For anyone that has been following the Indian military tech and capabilities in the tech apartheid era with all the technology denials, this has been a great achievement and very happy to see many small vendors also coming up and competing in this category- bodes very well for the future.

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/13 ... 36480?s=20 ---> Why Tejas Mk1A deal is a major boost for the domestic aviation sector - a pan India vendor list that will generate jobs and revenue over next seven years at the very least.

https://twitter.com/MohanCRaja/status/1 ... 90531?s=20 ---> Manu, who are the main foreign vendors in the project and from where?

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/13 ... 45888?s=20 ---> American GE engines, Israeli ELTA radar and BAE sensors.

basant · Post by **basant** » 15 Jan 2021 23:29

A decent coverage by SG on LCA. He mentions BR towards then end!

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 16 Jan 2021 01:46

A lot of us want more MK1 orders as well. 83 fighters is a great order but the games to attack LCA will now start - late deliveries (perhaps caused by client requested changes), maintenance issues, spares etc. The battle is won but the war with imports still lingers. So everyone needs to do their part. Do not underestimate the value of your opinion!

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 16 Jan 2021 02:35

basant wrote:A decent coverage by SG on LCA. He mentions BR towards then end!

He mentions Bharat Rakshak between 30-31 minutes for the article on Fairchild C-82 Packet!!!

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Jan 2021 12:21

V_Raman wrote:He mentions BharatRakshak between 30-31 minutes for the article on Fairchild C-82 Packet!!!

And, from the way he nonchalantly mentions BR, he appears to be a long-time lurker.

Aside that, it was a nice summary covering all apsects for a layman. There were also some interesting tidbits. Didn't know Kurt was in Chennai's MIT! Chennai's German connection is very deep indeed.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 16 Jan 2021 13:04

SSridhar wrote:
V_Raman wrote:He mentions BharatRakshak between 30-31 minutes for the article on Fairchild C-82 Packet!!!
And, from the way he nonchalantly mentions BR, he appears to be a long-time lurker.

Aside that, it was a nice summary covering all apsects for a layman. There were also some interesting tidbits. Didn't know Kurt was in Chennai's MIT! Chennai's German connection is very deep indeed.

He wrongly said C119 Packet's jet engine was HAL made Orpheus. Orpheus engines were used bcoz India had them in excess as spares from Gnat import. Secondly the jet pack was added by US maker of Packet (Fairchild) and then we fitted the Britshit engine lying idle in stores instead of using Yankee jet engine.

My dad tells me the Jet engine was very useful when on Himalayan mission in Laddhak. He was posted two times to C119 sqn both in Agra.

I recall the fun part to climb up the ladder to cockpit section, and open the escape the ascape chute there that exposed a tunnel down the belly. All was fun in 1968.

srai · Post by **srai** » 16 Jan 2021 13:32

ramana wrote:Where on the Mk1A do they plan to deploy these 900 kg bombs? The stations closest to the fuselage to reduce moment loads?

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 48800?s=20 ----> Report: IAF Tejas Mk1A to get integration with indigenous Garuthmaa/Garuda SOWs, which have already been integrated with Su-30MKI. While the Astra Mk2 (Mk1 initially) will provide Tejas Mk1A with a lethal BVR capability, these glide bombs will vastly enhance A2G strike capability.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Jan 2021 09:20

Srai Thanks.

So station 3 and 5 are rated for 1.5 tonnes. Awesome.

Station 4 is for centerline fuel tank?

srai · Post by **srai** » 17 Jan 2021 09:52

ramana wrote:...Station 4 is for centerline fuel tank?

So far ...

Griffin-3 LGB 1000lb Mk.11 (and non-LGB as well)

725-ltr external fuel tank

Supersonic external fuel tank

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Jan 2021 10:00

Great. I was hoping the 1200 kg rated Station 3 can accommodate a large 1000 liter centerline tank.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 17 Jan 2021 13:18

Per unit cost of Tejas is INR 384 cr (USD 52.5 mil), not 550 cr as Ajai Shukla claimed. Whatever he writes these days seems to be deliberate propaganda rather than honest mistakes.

Tejas resurgent
https://www.orfonline.org/expert-speak/tejas-resurgent/

One of the discrepancies immediately highlighted after the MoD’s announcement was the approximately INR 8,600 crore (US$ 1.17 billion) difference between what the CCS cleared and the figure approved by the DAC last year. The headline price immediately led to a chorus of disbelief about what appeared to be an average cost of INR 548 crore (US$ 75 million) per aircraft, resulting in unwarranted comparisons with more capable aircraft such as the Su-30MKI. Lack of transparency in defence spending only damages institutional credibility, in addition to hurting the sales prospects of the LCA beyond its domestic customer.

What should have been made clear up front was that the contract also includes a large fixed cost component, including development expenditures as well as a Performance Based Logistics (PBL) arrangement. The unit price of the LCA Mk.1A under the present deal is some INR 384 crore (US$ 52.5 million). The escalation from the March 2020 figure is accounted for mainly by variations in foreign currency exchange rates, as well as 18 percent in taxes.

srai · Post by **srai** » 17 Jan 2021 16:01

ramana wrote:Great. I was hoping the 1200 kg rated Station 3 can accommodate a large 1000 liter centerline tank.

2 x 1200ltr + 1 x 725ltr

2 x 800ltr (mid wing)

nam · Post by **nam** » 17 Jan 2021 18:55

Now that we know MK1A is around 52M. If MWF & TEDBF/ORCA comes to an average of 75M to 80M, then we might see an average savings of atleast 20-30M.

We have need atleast 300+, including replacing Su30 in the future. It might go up to 500 jets. That is saving of 9B to 15B! Even if Su30 are to be replaced with unmanned 4.5G mud movers.

When people ask, if we have the money to develop so many types. The savings itself pays for it. And i haven't even considered the common logistics..

D.Mahesh · Post by **D.Mahesh** » 17 Jan 2021 21:35

SSridhar wrote:
V_Raman wrote:He mentions BharatRakshak between 30-31 minutes for the article on Fairchild C-82 Packet!!!
And, from the way he nonchalantly mentions BR, he appears to be a long-time lurker.

Aside that, it was a nice summary covering all apsects for a layman. There were also some interesting tidbits. Didn't know Kurt was in Chennai's MIT! Chennai's German connection is very deep indeed.

BRF used to be the primary source of expertise at one time - and even news - as we have had a very robust Nonsense-Bandpass Filter. The Mod_Gurus of yore are now in retirement but still pack a mighty sting and can strike when needed. SG knows that.

As for the German connection in Chennai, German was taught in COEngg. Guindy and AC Tech those days. Also all scientists up to the 60s knew German.

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 17 Jan 2021 22:27

What is with the number 83. Assuming 4 squadrons, where are the remainder of the crafts going ?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 17 Jan 2021 22:46

Nam- the saving is the fact most of the money goes to our own economy! Add to that the learning from actually manufacturing our own design. The hours of testing with operational squadrons would bring in so many datapoints adding to the domestic knowledge base that is priceless!

So this cannot be looked at purely from the cost perspective!

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 17 Jan 2021 22:49

Clarification by Angad.

The final cost *after* taxes is 52.5 MM. Price before tax (with profit!) is in the region of 44.5 MM.

https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 64864?s=19

jamwal wrote:Per unit cost of Tejas is INR 384 cr (USD 52.5 mil), not 550 cr as Ajai Shukla claimed. Whatever he writes these days seems to be deliberate propaganda rather than honest mistakes.

Tejas Resurgent
https://www.orfonline.org/expert-speak/tejas-resurgent/
One of the discrepancies immediately highlighted after the MoD’s announcement was the approximately INR 8,600 crore (US$ 1.17 billion) difference between what the CCS cleared and the figure approved by the DAC last year. The headline price immediately led to a chorus of disbelief about what appeared to be an average cost of INR 548 crore (US$ 75 million) per aircraft, resulting in unwarranted comparisons with more capable aircraft such as the Su-30MKI. Lack of transparency in defence spending only damages institutional credibility, in addition to hurting the sales prospects of the LCA beyond its domestic customer.

What should have been made clear up front was that the contract also includes a large fixed cost component, including development expenditures as well as a Performance Based Logistics (PBL) arrangement. The unit price of the LCA Mk.1A under the present deal is some INR 384 crore (US$ 52.5 million). The escalation from the March 2020 figure is accounted for mainly by variations in foreign currency exchange rates, as well as 18 percent in taxes.

Nsmith · Post by **Nsmith** » 17 Jan 2021 23:06

nam wrote:Now that we know MK1A is around 52M. If MWF & TEDBF/ORCA comes to an average of 75M to 80M, then we might see an average savings of atleast 20-30M.

We have need atleast 300+, including replacing Su30 in the future. It might go up to 500 jets. That is saving of 9B to 15B! Even if Su30 are to be replaced with unmanned 4.5G mud movers.

When people ask, if we have the money to develop so many types. The savings itself pays for it. And i haven't even considered the common logistics..

Nam ji, we should not look at it from a savings/ airframe lens. While I agree that the savings in terms of cash outflow itself justify the development costs, the second order effects of spending 10-15B on the Indian aerospace MIC in terms of jobs created and benefits of spending that money on Indian suppliers and Pvt cos are a 100 times more valuable than paying that money to a French or Israeli company

kit · Post by **kit** » 17 Jan 2021 23:33

Nsmith wrote: Nam ji, we should not look at it from a savings/ airframe lens. While I agree that the savings in terms of cash outflow itself justify the development costs, the second order effects of spending 10-15B on the Indian aerospace MIC in terms of jobs created and benefits of spending that money on Indian suppliers and Pvt cos are a 100 times more valuable than paying that money to a French or Israeli company

quite right . the value generation downstream goes by another metric , i wonder if there is a calculator of sorts to use to have an indication of value generated , for example even one billion usd invested in india has a multiplier level downstream by a couple of magnitude

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 17 Jan 2021 23:42

Lecture by Dr. Satish Reddy
Has information about TEDBF, LCA MK2 and AMCA

Starting @ 41.00 Minutes

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 18 Jan 2021 01:01

SidSoma wrote:What is with the number 83. Assuming 4 squadrons, where are the remainder of the crafts going ?

IAF standard squadron composition is 16 fighters + 2 trainers...
So, total Mk1 and Mk1A will be as follow:-
32 single seat Mk1:- 2 squadrons (2×16=32)
73 single seat Mk1A:- 4 squadrons (4×16=64) + 9 extra
18 twin seat Mk1:- 6 squadrons (6×2=12) + 6 extra

The 9 Single seat Mk1A and 6 twin seat Mk1 jets are probably for TACDE and attrition reserves...
Once Tejas Mk2 enters production, I doubt Mk1A line would be active... So, IAF is probably stocking up attrition reserves now itself...

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 18 Jan 2021 01:23

Thanks Lakshman for the breakdown.. i thought the IAF squadron contained 21 fighters but looks like things have changed.

we have been eagerly waiting for this order and it has finally come. scanning thru youtube looks like a wave of positive reaction and glad to see none of the DDM negativity

here is Nitin Gokhale on the order.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjUUM38v9bw&t=38s