Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

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Kartik
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Kartik »

another view of the Tejas' performance over Colombo..must say this particular video did a better job than others of showing just how nimble and agile the Tejas Mk1 really is..hope we get to see it fly at more Air Shows.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Haridas »

Prem Kumar wrote:Haridas Ji: per @hvtiaf (circa March 2020), Uttam is GaAs based. GaN is still in the works

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1243361094069960704
IIRC at AI2021 the GaN based tr module specs came out. Ostensibly for Uttam.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

Do the new TR modules require significant change in algorithms?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by ranneel »

basant wrote:Do the new TR modules require significant change in algorithms?
Baseband algos should not change but sure enough new RF calibration needs to be done for the TR modules.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Kartik »

LCA twin seater (SPORT?) for CATS cockpit with LAD and sidestick.

Twitter link
So guys, here it is how it will be in the cockpit of the mothership. Zoom in to check.
#CATS #Tejas
Image

Twitter link with video of the cockpit displays

expand the image to see the details of the types of Pages that will be there on the LAD. And see the next link to view the front and rear cockpits.

I could spot a RWR display on the rightmost with data on number of Chaff and Flares, Fuel in tanks, Speed, Altitude and wonderfully interesting Page that looks like it shows the possible SAM or threat bubbles in the pilot's flight path with Terrain Avoidance mode. Then a beautiful digital moving map and leftmost being the radar display. And between the pilot's legs is the Center Pedestal Display with what appears to be Situational Awareness from the Warrior Loyal Wingmen. Dedicated back seater would control those in flight with the rear cockpit being a replica of the front cockpit.
Last edited by Kartik on 11 Mar 2021 15:03, edited 1 time in total.
nam
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by nam »

X band GaN TRM is already on QRSAM BMFR. So it is not an issue.

However LCA doesn't have enough power to utilize GaN TRM. BEL also has GaN Transmitter and GaAs receiver modules. Such modules will be cheaper than all GaN TRM.

If we apply a 20W GaN TRM on Uttam, technically the job of 750+ GaAs TRM can done in 380 odd GaN TRM! The radar will just become smaller!
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

BMFR is ground based, so would be okay to get some idea, but algos will be quite different. In fact, even AEW's modes also needed to be modified for the fast maneuvering jet. As GaN for Mk1x sounds tempting but I would be happy going ahead with a proven and adequate radar, till MLU. We need those jets yesterday!
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Prasad »

BMFR doesn't have GaN afaik. It is GaAs.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by nam »

Prasad wrote:BMFR doesn't have GaN afaik. It is GaAs.
The poster says it is GaN.

Image
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by ArjunPandit »

year is about to end..was hoping to see some more tejas deliveries..now even lock down is over..hope it picks up in this year
nam
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by nam »

basant wrote:BMFR is ground based, so would be okay to get some idea, but algos will be quite different. In fact, even AEW's modes also needed to be modified for the fast maneuvering jet. As GaN for Mk1x sounds tempting but I would be happy going ahead with a proven and adequate radar, till MLU. We need those jets yesterday!
GaN is used in the power electronics. Especially amplifiers. which can handle higher power and temperature. So in terms of signal processing and logic, it should not be a major challenge to use GaN.

You need to manage the power electronics part of things (heat and power), rather than DSP part of things.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Prasad »

nam wrote:
Prasad wrote:BMFR doesn't have GaN afaik. It is GaAs.
The poster says it is GaN.
Interesting. Wonder if the BSR or the MFR is GaN based. C-band GaN was ready a while back. X-band isn't afaik.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Kartik »

Tejas Mk1 with 2 R-73Es and 2 Derby BVRAAMs

Twitter link

Image
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by srai »

^^^
With 3 drop tanks (2 x 1200ltr and 1 x 725ltr centerline) + AAMs (2 x CCM and 2 x BVR)

Anyone can guess what the range would be?

Long range Ferrying config
Image



https://delhidefencereview.com/2020/05/ ... s-fighter/
...

The Tejas regularly flies non-stop between Bengaluru and Jodhpur & Bengaluru and Jaisalmer for various trials and exercises. For example, flying between Bengaluru and Jaisalmer with two 1200 litre (l) drop tanks, the aircraft lands with 800 kg of fuel still onboard even after flying for 2.5 hours! In fact, these flights are regularly done at 28,000 feet (because of air traffic regulations) instead of 35,000 feet where the endurance will be even greater. Taking all these aspects into account it is easy to see why the endurance of the Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A is above 3 hours
...
With 2 x 1200ltr, flies for 2.5 hours (plus reserve 800 kg remaining). Extra 725-ltr, easily looking at 3+ hour flight or ferry range of 1700+km (possibly >2000km +). Combat radius would be around 800 km (@40% ferry range).
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/BlehDFI/status/1371 ... 77444?s=20 ---> Tejas full weapons load...Derby & R-73, 1200 litre & 725 litre drop-tanks.

Image
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Prem Kumar »

Another Mig-21 crash today & we lost Group Captain A Gupta. The IAF top brass have blood on their hands.

The Tejas-Mk1 version itself is far superior to the Mig-21 Bisons. If they had operated in a mission mode to replace Mig-21 squadrons with Tejas Mk1 squadrons, so many lives could have been saved.

But hey no: we will wait for Mk1A, even if it means a few more pilots & airframes lost in the next 3 years

Because you see: "We will fight with what we have. Our boys will die in what we import"
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by kit »

Its inspiring that Tejas has an impeccable safety record !!.. And there is another sales pitch for potential buyers
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Vivek K »

Sad about Group Captain Gupta! Should have replaced bisons with MK1 - agree with Prem Kumar!
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Prem Kumar »

Even now, if the IAF cares for the lives of its pilots, it can place an order for MK1. The assembly line is still chugging along and if there are assured orders, HAL can even open up another line.

I believe we have about 6 squadrons of Mig-21s left. Replace them with 3 squadrons of MK1 (which could be delivered over the next 3 years) and the rest with MK1A's.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Vivek K »

It would be the right thing to do. IAF has too much invested in pilots to lose them like this.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Raman »

The anguish is understandable, but let's remember that we don't know what caused the accident, and even if the IAF placed an order today for Mk1 aircraft, it will take 3 years until first delivery.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/13723 ... 21345?s=20 ---> Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft urgently required to replace aging fleets.

Never a more urgent time to replace the IAF’s MiG-21s with India's Tejas
https://www.livefistdefence.com/never-a ... ias-tejas/
28 Feb 2019
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Mort Walker »

He was killed during take off. Ground the MiG-21s and expedite the LCA Tejas Mk1. The lives of pilots are worth something.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Raman wrote:The anguish is understandable, but let's remember that we don't know what caused the accident, and even if the IAF placed an order today for Mk1 aircraft, it will take 3 years until first delivery.
Very True, but they can add to the order of 83? Or is 114 MRFA more important? Tejas surpasses the MiG-21 Bison and even the Jaguar IS/IM. We have 4 - 6 Bison units left I believe. Can also retire the older Jaguar squadrons. You may not even need to do a one-to-one squadron replacement vis-a-viv the MiG-21 Bison. For four Bison units, even two additional Tejas units could very well be sufficient in terms of capability.

See tweets below....

https://twitter.com/akki_bauer22_/statu ... 70720?s=20 ---> Can Tejas Mk1A match up to Mig 21 Bison's role?

https://twitter.com/SanskariBaalak/stat ... 61696?s=20 ---> No. It outmatches it.

https://twitter.com/akki_bauer22_/statu ... 66177?s=20 ---> Please make a list on which aspects :)

https://twitter.com/MI6GB/status/137223 ... 43909?s=20 --->

1- Low RCS
2- far superior radar, avionics, sensors package.
3- Far superior BVR, WVR, A2G missiles and munitions.
4- Use of carbon composites, makes the aircraft lighter and lowers the RCS.
5- FBW.
6- Pod based SPJ, MAWS, ECM.
7- Better TWR
and many, many, many, many things more.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 06883?s=20 ---> Report: All the MiG-21 Bison squadrons of IAF are likely to be phased out over the next five to six years.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 57377?s=20 ---> MiG-21s with IAF will soldier on for a few more years (2025).
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

Unless the IAF makes a decision like the Mig 27 with the last Bison recently overhauled, it is likely they the Bisons will be phased out when the Tejas MK1A's come into service. That means Bison phase out will happen between 2025-29 . IAF otherwise simply does not have the numbers. This is the sad truth.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Indeed, there is no choice but to solider on with the MiG-21 for the next few years. 36 Rafales are not going to solve that, 114 MRFA is not going to solve that and neither will 83 Tejas Mk1A solve that issue RIGHT NOW.

However, ordering additional Tejas Mk1As - over the 83 Mk1A order - will result in an increased delivery schedule. Increased delivery numbers of the Tejas = decreased numbers of MiG-21 Bisons in service.

HAL is planning to do 16 aircraft per year with the Mk1A, IAF wants to increase the delivery to 20 per year. Add another two more units (at minimum) and HAL can push out 24 aircraft per year. More orders = greater production numbers. A fact that is proven, time and time again.

The ball lies in the IAF's court. And in the MoD's court. And in the GOI's court.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by nachiket »

My concern is that HAL seems to be struggling to keep to the delivery schedule they agreed upon for the Mk1. Yes, the order quantity at 40 is quite low. But that is not an excuse for failing to deliver the number of aircraft they have already agreed upon after factoring in the order size. Hopefully, this year will be better. Ideally the IAF should have ordered at least 4 squadrons of the Mk1 FOC, but it is difficult to make that case when they can point to the agonizingly slow pace of deliveries by HAL.

Then there are other questions like why exactly do we have to wait for the Mk1A in order to integrate the SPJ pod and why the integration of the Astra on the Tejas is taking so long. The baseline Derby (not the i-Derby-ER) is a suboptimal weapon to have in today's BVR environment, especially when facing AMRAAM armed opponents. But these issues do not affect the need to replace the Mig-21s as quickly as possible. The current Mk1 as it stands is more than adequate to do that.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by AkshaySG »

Always maintained that we should have ordered more Mk1's ..yes they weren't as good as 1A but were still much more advanced than a Mig21 , would have gotten HAL into mass production mindset from making LSPs and TDs much quicker .

Elon Musk frequently speaks about “building the machine that builds the machine,” where the factory first becomes a product in their overall process. In a manufacturing facility, this means investing in resources to increase the velocity of production and the density of manufacturable goods to increase output .

Its HAL's first time with such production and growing pains should be expected and factored into any timelines they want to meet .


Plus right now even if the Mk1 does get delivered quicker the IOC,FOC planes won't be based near the frontline and that means they won't be doing the high workrate CAPs, interception roles that the 21 undertakes , So in terms of workload there is still a massive burden on Mig-21s unlike say the 25,27 who could be pulled back and retired without affecting doctrine that much
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Karan M »

MK1 has production engineering issues - it was moved from prototype into LSP into SP without the time to reengineer for easy maintenance, so serviceability is harder than it would otherwise be.

Not as bad as old gen MiGs etc but still Mk1A will solve those issues.

Answer is to fund and resource HAL/ADA/Partners to develop Mk1A faster and build more of them at a faster rate/year, accelerate MWF too.

IAF is stuck on waiting for 114 MRFA unwilling to admit or see the reality we can't afford yet another $30 Bn acquisition.

The 36 Rafales cost us something like a dozen Billion, even assuming lower costs and keeping service agreements aside, the cost plus TOT would easily cross >$30 Bn. Wont be surprised if it is around $40 Bn.

At a fraction of that cost, IAF could order another 4 squadrons of Mk1A, ask for doubling of the rate by HAL. Add another 2 squadrons of Rafale, drop the MRFA. That's $18Bn assuming all costs stay the same as the original Rafale and Mk1A deal. But actually costs would drop (Rafale base, maint costs dont need to be repeated, ditto for a lot of the Mk1A D&D costs).

IAF can absorb two squadrons of Mk1A per year. It will mean a ramp up, but the MiG-21s can be replaced faster.

Sadly GOI delayed placing the Mk1A order and the order that does exist, for 4 Mk1A squadrons (~73 aircraft, single seaters plus 2+trainers per squadron) is not enough to accelerate a build rate out beyond 16 per year, and this order is stretching deliveries out over 6 years but at the rate of a squadron per year.

GOI hasnt even signed up for 21 MiG-29s and 12 Su-30s yet, the Russians will surely keep hiking costs up. Meanwhile IAF is at its nadir, airframe strength wise, out of which a huge chunk - 4-6 MiG-21s are almost completely obsolete for today's battlefield, the older generation's nostalgia for them apart.

The money IAF spares from a MRFA purchase around $10-20 Bn - use them for the Su-30 upgrade, better AAMs, refuellers, EW and more SAMs/BMD to head off the PLARF missile barrage.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by srai »

LCA Tejas Mk1/1A were supposed to be the number fillers in a manner that is affordable for India. With limited quantities ordered (40 + 83), sadly that won’t be the case.

Three decades of ambitious pursuit (and costs so high that they are unaffordable) for MRCA and MRFA have halted other sensible options.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by nachiket »

srai wrote:LCA Tejas Mk1/1A were supposed to be the number fillers in a manner that is affordable for India. With limited quantities ordered (40 + 83), sadly that won’t be the case.

Three decades of ambitious pursuit (and costs so high that they are unaffordable) for MRCA and MRFA have halted other sensible options.
Well when they were imagined as number fillers, nobody thought we would be flying 270 Su-30's either.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by srai »

^^^
Those 270 Su-30MKI badly require MLU soon. That will easily cost around $10 billion.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Karan M »

I am just amazed at how many serious observers of the Indian defense scene can't see there is no money for an ambitious MRFA. And how limited bang for buck that MRFA will be, when the whole world, literally the whole world, is doubling down on 5th gen airframes, whereas we will be paying through our nose for 4.5 Gen ones and asking for TOT i.e. license assembly of black boxes.

I mean, you think you will get an 114 aircraft production run, which is Rafale level, for a mere $20 Bn? And the real cost, around $40Bn. Well guess what that's around the cost of giving piped water, setting up desalination plants, fixing sewage etc for the entire Jal Jeevan plan. We can't afford a single semiconductor foundry yet.

And folks think GOI has that money to spare?

We have spent around $100 Bn in capex alone over 2014-2021. That's a drop in the bucket given our soldiers lack so many basics like optics, ample NV, arty guns. Instead, of focusing on firepower, mobility, networking and sensors - offensive and defensive, we have two standard answers - buy "new" (as versus fixing what's there) and raise new formations.

So lets just think how improbable the chances of getting 40% of capex spend for over 7 years is for one program alone, and what that would do the availability of funds for MWF and AMCA.

And even as I state this, its also clear GOI has to spend on defense, the next conflict with PRC is around the corner, and another escalation will happen. They will also transfer gear to Pak.

The only answers are more Tejas Mk1A as a bridge to the MWF and to bulk up the numbers, add 2 more squadron Rafale, the 1 sq of MiG-29s, a few more Flankers, and progress the latters upgrade. Use the massive savings in funds to add more Astra Mk1/2 across the fleet plus enhanced EW, and sensors.
Most of this money will directly go to Indian industry, strengthen our economy as well and return cash to GOI to fund more R&D. Its virtuous spend.

The Gripen guys will desperately angle for the deal stating low costs. Slightly greater range/payload apart, the aircraft will be no great shakes over the Mk1A, and will be equal to the MWF at best. Its key USP, its swashplate radar is likely denied to us as we blacklisted its supplier. Its radar will have to be an untested SAAB unit and the aircraft will arrive buggy, consuming all our scarce funds slowing down the MWF and AMCA as well.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by ArjunPandit »

Mind you this is only iaf acquisition list, there are requirements for in ia either GDP increases 10% pa for next decade or we just go for Tejas extra line.. At best try to recover costs through small export orders else take that and keep taking a mirage 2000 level plane..
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by kit »

I do think a billion dollars goes much further in the Indian Mil Industrial complex than say a French or American one !
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by AkshaySG »

Karan M wrote:
At a fraction of that cost, IAF could order another 4 squadrons of Mk1A, ask for doubling of the rate by HAL. Add another 2 squadrons of Rafale, drop the MRFA. That's $18Bn assuming all costs stay the same as the original Rafale and Mk1A deal. But actually costs would drop (Rafale base, maint costs dont need to be repeated, ditto for a lot of the Mk1A D&D costs).
Karan M wrote:
The only answers are more Tejas Mk1A as a bridge to the MWF and to bulk up the numbers, add 2 more squadron Rafale, the 1 sq of MiG-29s, a few more Flankers, and progress the latters upgrade. Use the massive savings in funds to add more Astra Mk1/2 across the fleet plus enhanced EW, and sensors.
Most of this money will directly go to Indian industry, strengthen our economy as well and return cash to GOI to fund more R&D. Its virtuous spend.
You're right in saying that the MRFA is unreasonable, bloated and expensive but incorrect in assuming that we can "divert" its money elsewhere because it simply doesn't exist

You can't "save money" and use it elsewhere when you don't have it in the first place ... Its not like the IAF/GOI has set aside 30 Billion (or whatever) for MRFA and is waiting to spend it which we can divert to more value for money options

Its like me saying i'll rather buy a Honda than a Lamborghini and spend the leftover money on a house when the fact of the matter is I need bank loans and EMIs to even afford the Honda .

So even scrounging up 18 Bil for more more Mk1As and Rafales , R&D , EW suites is gonna be a very very difficult task especially considering deals like C295,AWACS,tankers,drones and whatnot also waiting in the wings all of which are probably higher in priority .
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Indranil »

History was made yesterday. An SP took to the year for the first time and nobody cared or reported.

Sp 25 and 26 should be ready within this month
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

With 2 x 1200ltr, flies for 2.5 hours (plus reserve 800 kg remaining). Extra 725-ltr, easily looking at 3+ hour flight or ferry range of 1700+km (possibly >2000km +). Combat radius would be around 800 km (@40% ferry range).
The configuration, speed, and flightpaths for ferry range are drastically different from a combat scenario. While ferry range improves with subsonic flight and gentle maneuvers, combat scenario requirements are exactly opposite with added inability to carry all fuel tanks (due to trade-offs). A 500 km combat radius does look like a more reasonable number at about 30% ferry range, though the earlier speculated 350-400 km is perhaps more reasonable. With limited number of mid-air refuellers that we have, the issue of range is indeed irksome.
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