Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

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brar_w
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by brar_w »

disha wrote:Given that, Malaysia has no other option but to buy LCA. Given that S. Korea currently has T-50 developed which is more a trainer than a combat aircraft. With Indonesia jointly developing KF-21 with S. Korea, Malaysia is left with no option.
Malaysia's program to acquire these aircraft is called "Fighter Lead In Trainer-Light Combat Aircraft" (FLIA-LCA). It would appear it wants a single solution that can form the backbone of its fighter pilot training, as well as meet the light combat aircraft roles. This is what the T-50 and F/A-50 is including the training part of the mission, the virtual and synthetic training needs (of ROKAF and other operators) etc. These aircraft will replace the MB-339s and Hawks. The M-346 too has the advanced training mission as its primary focus and now even has a combat configuration (variant) that is on offer. So they clearly have 2-4 potential aircraft to chose from to meet their training and light combat duties. LCA will be very competitive but it is far from the only choice they may have, and depending on what training solution HAL presents and how it is evaluated it may not be the lead choice for that purpose (though it will be the best in terms of combat capabilities of the lot).
Samad said that under the RMAF Capability Development Plan 2055 (CAP55), the service plans to procure 36 FLIT/LCA aircraft in two steps.

“The RMAF needs the FLIT/LCA as this single dual-purpose platform has a balanced ability to perform training roles for fighter pilots and various operational missions.

"The RMAF has asked the government for a budget for the acquisition of 18 aircraft in phase 1 through the submission of the new projects 2021 and another 18 aircraft in phase 2, under the 13th Malaysia Plan (RMK-13)," he said.

The RMAF currently operates two variants of the BAE Systems Hawk in the FLIT/LCA roles, as well as some Aermacchi MB339 trainers. Half of the fleet is nearing the end of its operational life and needs to be replaced within 10 years at the latest. Light jets play a major role in the security of the nation, such as the counter-terrorism operations carried out by the Hawk in the eastern state of Sabah, bordering the southern Philippines. https://www.blogbeforeflight.net/2021/0 ... craft.html
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by ashishvikas »

Apart from Pa*m Oil etc. etc., there is another reason why Malaysia might just want to buy the Tejas instead of the KAI T-50: Indonesia has already bought the T-50I.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/143 ... 29324?s=19
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by brar_w »

As per Janes, they are looking for a 8-10 split in terms of fighter lead in trainers, and light attack aircraft. This in the first iteration (a follow on order of 18 is expected, possibly with the same split). Depending on what they have in terms of requirements, KAI may offer a mix of the T-50 and the F/A-50. Having a lead in trainer that is similar to what the Indonesian air force may have is hardly going to be a deal breaker. Depending on their requirements and budgets, the light combat aircraft configuration that KAI offers and the accompanying weapons package may look a lot different from what Indonesia has with its T-50 I's. This is probably the best near term chance for HAL but this is far from being an easy win as there is going to be stiff competition and multiple aircraft on offer should easily be able to satisfy RMAF's requirements here.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by rajsunder »

brar_w wrote:As per Janes, they are looking for a 8-10 split in terms of fighter lead in trainers, and light attack aircraft. This in the first iteration (a follow on order of 18 is expected, possibly with the same split). Depending on what they have in terms of requirements, KAI may offer a mix of the T-50 and the F/A-50. Having a lead in trainer that is similar to what the Indonesian air force may have is hardly going to be a deal breaker. Depending on their requirements and budgets, the light combat aircraft configuration that KAI offers and the accompanying weapons package may look a lot different from what Indonesia has with its T-50 I's. This is probably the best near term chance for HAL but this is far from being an easy win as there is going to be stiff competition and multiple aircraft on offer should easily be able to satisfy RMAF's requirements here.
Korea can offer many things, but can not offer integration of Russian missiles. I think Malaysian Air Force is similar to our Indian Air Force, in that we both use western and Russian fighters.

India is the only country that is suited to offer the integration of Russian missiles on a western engine fighter/trainer Jet to Malaysia.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by hemant_sai »

ashishvikas wrote:Apart from Pa*m Oil etc. etc., there is another reason why Malaysia ... Indonesia has already bought the T-50I.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/143 ... 29324?s=19
Indonesia and India relations are better compared with Malaysia.
Why India is promoting military sale to countries which have potential of future conflict?
Is it part of strategy to make them dependent on us and thereby hedging the risk?
Do we have dedicated military department which would monitor export safety provisions?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by YashG »

rajsunder wrote:
brar_w wrote:As per Janes, they are looking for a 8-10 split in terms of fighter lead in trainers, and light attack aircraft. This in the first iteration (a follow on order of 18 is expected, possibly with the same split). Depending on what they have in terms of requirements, KAI may offer a mix of the T-50 and the F/A-50. Having a lead in trainer that is similar to what the Indonesian air force may have is hardly going to be a deal breaker. Depending on their requirements and budgets, the light combat aircraft configuration that KAI offers and the accompanying weapons package may look a lot different from what Indonesia has with its T-50 I's. This is probably the best near term chance for HAL but this is far from being an easy win as there is going to be stiff competition and multiple aircraft on offer should easily be able to satisfy RMAF's requirements here.
Korea can offer many things, but can not offer integration of Russian missiles. I think Malaysian Air Force is similar to our Indian Air Force, in that we both use western and Russian fighters.

India is the only country that is suited to offer the integration of Russian missiles on a western engine fighter/trainer Jet to Malaysia.
While I would like to believe i what you say but data says otherwise. Malaysia has FA18 & Hawks both of which use AMRAAMs - therefore T50 which also uses AMRAAM is better out of the box. Tejas will have commanality with SU30s. But on commonality, T50 edges Tejas 2-1. Also Derby ER that is Tejas' longest punch in the sky, outranging even C5, is not with Malaysia.

Also otherwise just as India, Malaysia might be moving away from R77s.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by nachiket »

YashG wrote: Also otherwise just as India, Malaysia might be moving away from R77s.
R-77 is not integrated with the Tejas as of now anyway.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by YashG »

hemant_sai wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:Apart from Pa*m Oil etc. etc., there is another reason why Malaysia ... Indonesia has already bought the T-50I.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/143 ... 29324?s=19
Indonesia and India relations are better compared with Malaysia.
Why India is promoting military sale to countries which have potential of future conflict?
Is it part of strategy to make them dependent on us and thereby hedging the risk?
Do we have dedicated military department which would monitor export safety provisions?
Such questions would hardly matter at this early stage. This is very early stage - this acquisition is atleast 3 years away, if palm oil is on the table.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by brar_w »

rajsunder wrote:Korea can offer many things, but can not offer integration of Russian missiles.
It really depends on what their requirements are for the light combat part of the program. This isn't their MRCA program or an attempt to replace either the Flanker or the Hornets. Or find a replacement for the MiG-29. But as YashG has stated, they operate the Hornet, (and were actually recently looking to pick up some older Hornets from Finland as well) and several weapons operated by their Hornet fleet (including JDAM and Maverick) are already integrated on the F/A-50.
YashG wrote:While I would like to believe i what you say but data says otherwise. Malaysia has FA18 & Hawks both of which use AMRAAMs - therefore T50 which also uses AMRAAM is better out of the box.
Actually, the current T-50I or F/A-50 do not use the AIM-120. They don't have BVR capability at all. That said, KAI is said to be working on the block 20 enhancement for the F/A-50 that would add the AIM-120 AMRAAM capability to all radar equipped variants as an upgrade (and new build). They are also integrating the Sniper ATP and ability to self designate LGB's in the block 10 configuration so most of these things could be on offer. But it really all comes down to what the RMAF wants and can afford. If all they really ask for is a trainer that can be a back up light attack platform then it will really be a race to the bottom in terms of procurement, operating and support cost and service. Something like the M-346 family (including the M-346FA) would be very competitive here as it is likely to be one of the most affordable to operate. Keep going up the performance spectrum and the T-50 and ultimately the Tejas begin to look more attractive but both will also cost a lot more. Especially if they keep demanding weapons and other capabilities that begin to overlap some of their MRCA requirements of the past.
Last edited by brar_w on 07 Sep 2021 19:32, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by RishiChatterjee »

YashG wrote: Such questions would hardly matter at this early stage. This is very early stage - this acquisition is atleast 3 years away, if palm oil is on the table.
Shouldn't their mothballed Mig-29s be on the table more?.. That'd allow us to offer an exchange discount.

Tejas' Israeli radar & AAMs may not be acceptable to the Malaysians either. That would mean Elta radar & EW pod may need alternatives (assuming Astra & R-73 would be enough as AAMs).
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by bharathp »

should we be even thinking of exporting Astra at the moment? specially given Malaysia's propensity to be a biraadar mulk?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by V_Raman »

We have no choice but to have a good relationship with malaysia - it is 10% Indian!!
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by sohamn »

avionics should be different than what we would have in Mk1a, otherwise all the details would land up in TSP's desk for sure since Malaysia is tightly coupled with TSP and that is something we should be careful when giving them inner details of our frontline fighter
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by RishiChatterjee »

:P

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1434862630334730251 ---> From the latest HAL Annual Report: 'MoU signed with with Ms MMTC as channelizing partner for import of palm oil, for likely countertrade for sale of LCA-Tejas to Royal Malaysian Air force.'

Muwahahaha. As, I was saying...
Last edited by Rakesh on 08 Sep 2021 08:27, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Copy the content of the tweet when posting and not just the link. Post Edited.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

@Rishi, the tweet from Saurav Jha about the Uttam AESA radar has already been posted in the Radar thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2914&p=2513438#p2513438
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by RishiChatterjee »

https://idrw.org/hal-offers-lca-lift-in ... air-force/
HAL offers LCA-LIFT in response to RFI issued by the Australian Air Force :D
Rakesh wrote:@Rishi, the tweet from Saurav Jha about the Uttam AESA radar has already been posted in the Radar thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2914&p=2513438#p2513438
Ok yes, didn't see there.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Pratyush »

I didn't know about the Australian LIFT project.

Damm, so this is the third major trainer project after US, Malaysia,

What a change in the direction of the program a few years brings.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

This is excellent news. Start participating in every contest out there, even if they don't win.

Learn the ropes of selling arms to foreign countries. Wish HAL all the best.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

The Tejas-LIFT's biggest plus point will be the GE F404 engine. A turbofan that is very familiar to the RAAF.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Vivek K »

hemant_sai wrote: Indonesia and India relations are better compared with Malaysia.
Why India is promoting military sale to countries which have potential of future conflict?
Is it part of strategy to make them dependent on us and thereby hedging the risk?
Do we have dedicated military department which would monitor export safety provisions?
That line of thought would result in no sales. Remember - Russia sells to Pakistan risking angering its biggest buyer - India. US sells to the Saudis and others in the region risking angering Israel etc.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by brar_w »

Rakesh wrote:The Tejas-LIFT's biggest plus point will be the GE F404 engine. A turbofan that is very familiar to the RAAF.
Its biggest plus would be the combat capable variant that they could consider if they wanted a light fighter configuration. The F404 is shared by two other competitors so isn’t really a differentiator here but the Tejas has the most potential if they are interested in converting some to a light attack fighter role.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by mody »

Tejas can offer the Paveway-II LGB, NGARM-RudraM1, Gautam and Gaurav precision guided bombs in the future along with Astra Mk1 and later Astra MK2, apart from R-73 and maybe ASRAAM in the future. In trems of being combat capable, the Tejas offers the best bet, especially if the MK1A variant is chosen.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

IAF Plans 350 Aircraft...Over next 20 Years
https://m.rediff.com/amp/news/report/ia ... 210909.htm
09 Sept 2021
ACM Bhadauria's staff officer, Air Vice Marshal N Tiwari, rebutted criticism that the Tejas LCA had taken too long to be developed. AVM Tewari said the first 4-5 years in the Tejas fighter's design and development cycle went into setting up testing and production facilities that are essential for aircraft development programmes. "Today, if we are ready to move forward in developing a next-generation fighter, it is because the Tejas programme gave us a core critical mass," said AVM Tiwari
"When I get feedback from the Tejas squadron today, the pilots are uniformly happy with the way the plane flies, and how well integrated it is for the pilot," said AVM Tiwari. "We have a fighter that incorporates the best of the Russian and the Western fighter design philosophies." He gave the example of the autopilot, which, in Russian fighters, allows a disoriented pilot to return his fighter to level flight by simply pressing a 'level mode' button -- a facility that Western fighters, such as the Mirage 2000, do not have. This feature has been incorporated into the Tejas fighter.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Pratyush »

The statement from the top is the airforce is quite encouraging.

This shows a deep appreciation of the challenges in developing of clean sheet design.

It also shows that as an institution the IAF has grown quite comfortable with research and development. Along with Something that was not always visible or apparent in the past.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Cyrano »

Why barter against artery clogging palm oil of all things, trading LCA for heart attacks of Indians ? Doesn't Malaysia have nothing better to offer? For ex: Lease us for 99 yrs an island in the Indo-China sea for developing a joint/Indian Air &/or Naval base ?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

Nice to see both officers speaking highly of the feedback. I hope the maintenance issues referred to by the ACM earlier have been addressed to the satisfaction of IAF.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by YashG »

We import palm oil in copious amounts, one way or the other. So it would be cool if we end up exporting a fighter jet for the palm oil that we will buy anyways.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by SriKumar »

All this stuff about Malaysia and Palm oil reminds me of the spat that happened a couple of years ago where their PM (mahatir?) said something about Cashmore or some specific internal matter to India; and malaysian palm oil was embargoed. Maybe it is off the embargo list now.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by yensoy »

Cyrano wrote:Why barter against artery clogging palm oil of all things, trading LCA for heart attacks of Indians ? Doesn't Malaysia have nothing better to offer? For ex: Lease us for 99 yrs an island in the Indo-China sea for developing a joint/Indian Air &/or Naval base ?
My heart skipped a beat there and had to look up online. Evidently palm oil isn't that terrible https://www.independent.co.uk/life-styl ... 05521.html, though of course its hydrogenated version is probably pretty nasty. Yes we import a lot of oils of all types, Shekar Gupta had an interesting video on this topic recently.

Of course I would love the island, even better if we could grow palm oil there 8) between the runway and the staff quarters.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by rajsunder »

Vivek K wrote:
hemant_sai wrote: Indonesia and India relations are better compared with Malaysia.
Why India is promoting military sale to countries which have potential of future conflict?
Is it part of strategy to make them dependent on us and thereby hedging the risk?
Do we have dedicated military department which would monitor export safety provisions?
That line of thought would result in no sales. Remember - Russia sells to Pakistan risking angering its biggest buyer - India. US sells to the Saudis and others in the region risking angering Israel etc.
Israel is not the paying customer,rather US subsidizes the purchase of US arms by Israel.
Also I do not think Israel and Saudi view each other as enemies, the case that I point out is the bombing of iraq's nuke reactor by Israeli air force f16's in 1980's. There is no way mathematically possible for those jets to fly low to ground and reach Iraq without refueling in Saudi air space.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Vivek K »

Or the Saudis did not realize that the Israelis did what they did. Are you saying that Saudis are friendly towards Israel? That would make the whole problem of the middle east go away since Wahabism has been the most radical form/interpretation of Islam.

The point is - figure out what is possible and sell to someone at least! Use less powerful GE engines, do not give tech for weapons integration etc.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Anujan »

OT for this thread:

Saudis are friendly towards Israel

For example, were informed of and allowed Israeli overflight when Israelis bombed the Osirak reactor.

Israel also has an understanding with them for overflights to bomb Iran.

Imagine you are Saudis. You hate Iran because it is Shiite and you hate Iraq because it (was) powerful and could invade and capture your country. It was also a largely secular dictatorship. Iran suppports Hezbollah, that Israel hates. Iraq had a nuclear program that Israel is afraid if.

You share common enemies, so you find ways to cooperate.

It is simply reductive to assume Saudis == wahhabis so must be the case that they hate Israel

Saudis == Monarchy that enjoys a lifestyle of billions of dollars per year. A family that runs the oil business and reaps all the profits and is desperate to cling on to its power. All ME monarchies are like that. They sell Islam to the population to keep them calm.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Vivek K »

The point - without getting into long drawn posts - India must look at selling great systems like Arjun, LCA, Missiles and ships to earn money. The added production will add to a) reduced overhead for unit production and b) larger MIC.

In a nut shell - why won't India play the double game that Saudis play? Extract your pound of flesh from the Malaysians. Charge a large sum for say Astra integration or any other missile asked for. We are selling ourselves short by a) not buying LCA in large numbers, b) not setting large production facilities for it, and then walking away from exports. The export version could have the lower thrust GE 404, standard 2032 (not 2052 or Uttam or perhaps Uttam with lots of modes blocked).

The sale will make Malaysia dependent on us for spares etc. Sell them more stuff to increase their dependence.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Brad Goodman »

It would be our 1st major sell so we are also playing nice, Once it is owned and operated by one country we can be in position to showcase it as a viable product to others. I love the confidence HAL is showing by participating in tenders in Australia & USA it makes other nations stand up & take notice
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Frankly, I don't care if a sale is made or not.

The fact that Tejas is in contention I enough for me. Add to that the vote of confidence from the brass I am over the moon.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Neela »

One way to sales is bring development partners for components.
Invite Malaysia Indonesia for development of landing gear , or a new project etc and hook them into Lca and other military sales.
For example a military cargo plane of c130 type development jointly funded by 3 countries will ensure cost distribution + guaranteed sales + RoI + 1000s of jobs
Also sale of military gear is leverage.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by nam »

The comment by AVM Tiwari shows why it is important to have local fighter development. It creates trust in local tech.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by chetak »

Cyrano wrote:Why barter against artery clogging palm oil of all things, trading LCA for heart attacks of Indians ? Doesn't Malaysia have nothing better to offer? For ex: Lease us for 99 yrs an island in the Indo-China sea for developing a joint/Indian Air &/or Naval base ?
the next time Cyrano ji, you buy some baked goods like puffs, biscuits, and pastries, think of palm oil because that's where most of it goes.

I gather that it may still be in domestic use in many rural and smaller towns
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by chetak »

Neela wrote:One way to sales is bring development partners for components.
Invite Malaysia Indonesia for development of landing gear , or a new project etc and hook them into Lca and other military sales.
For example a military cargo plane of c130 type development jointly funded by 3 countries will ensure cost distribution + guaranteed sales + RoI + 1000s of jobs
Also sale of military gear is leverage.

two ummah countries and one kaffir country, how does that even work
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

OT, We forget Palm Oil has another major uses- Soap, Lipstick Shampoo. I am all for Palm oil use in all products which are not part of Dietery consumption. It is better to be avoided in Biscuits, Bread, fried stuff etc but unfortunately being the cheapest oil is widely used.
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