Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

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ShivS
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by ShivS »

Any evidence that we have ready stocks of Derby ER integrated with the Tejas?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

There was this press release from PIB

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1714563
Tejas, India's indigenous Light Combat Aircraft, added the 5th generation Python-5 Air-to-Air Missile (AAM) in its air-to-air weapons capability on April 27, 2021. Trials were also aimed to validate enhanced capability of already integrated Derby Beyond Visual Range (BVR) AAM on Tejas. The test firing at Goa completed a series of missile trials to validate its performance under extremely challenging scenarios. Derby missile achieved direct hit on a high-speed maneuvering aerial target and the Python missiles also achieved 100% hits, thereby validating their complete capability. The trials met all their planned objectives.
Now it is not clear enhanced capability means in Derby to IDerby ER, but what else can mean by Enhanced capability to the Derby missiles? And also extremely challenging scenarios- I guess simulating lessons from 27-Feb-19.
Last edited by Aditya_V on 16 Sep 2021 13:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by RishiChatterjee »

basant wrote:Derby or Derby-ER?
Well, they look the same externally.. So as far as I'm concerned, it can be either.

ShivS wrote:Any evidence that we have ready stocks of Derby ER integrated with the Tejas?
No but Israeli ads say its the same missile software wise. Maybe seperate integration isn't required & the above news indeed meant trials of ER (what else can "enhanced capability" mean?).
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

RishiChatterjee wrote:No but Israeli ads say its the same missile software wise. Maybe seperate integration isn't required & the above news indeed meant trials of ER (what else can "enhanced capability" mean?).
Those are ads. DRDO statement of 2021 was a little vague, "... Trials were also aimed to validate enhanced capability of already integrated Derby Beyond Visual Range (BVR) AAM on Tejas". Also, no news of procurement of I-Derby ER. It is a possibility, nevertheless. However, it is more likely that I-Derby ER was validated but is yet to be procured.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by ShivS »

Aditya_V wrote:There was this press release from PIB

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1714563
objectives.
Now it is not clear enhanced capability means in Derby to IDerby ER, but what else can mean by Enhanced capability to the Derby missiles? And also extremely challenging scenarios- I guess simulating lessons from 27-Feb-19.
Am speculating too, but more likely to mean the I-derby with a active software defined seeker - big improvement over the past seeker - than the i derby er, which has the new seeker and a dual pulse motor.

If we had ordered I-derby-er stocks it would have been news.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

My understand is that it would be again I-Derby ER if it were to have that seeker. Could be wrong though.
Derby’s variants include I-Derby and I-Derby ER (Extended Range). The upgraded I-Derby AAR missile is equipped with a software-defined active radar seeker and was unveiled at the Aero India 2015 exhibition held in Bengaluru, India.

The I-Derby ER advanced active radar missile was unveiled at the Paris Air Show 2015. It features a solid-state active radar seeker and a dual pulse rocket motor, which provides an operational range of up to 100km.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Chinmay »

Some spectacular images of the Tejas!

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1438395942311378949

Image
Image
Image
Image
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

How reliable is Airforce Technology

https://www.airforce-technology.com/pro ... r-missile/
India test-fired I-Derby ER missile from a Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) in Goa in April 2021, marking the Tejas LCA’s improved beyond visual range capabilities. India purchased the I-Derby ER missiles from Israel in 2020 under emergency mode during the India-China stand-off in the Galwan valley.

The Indian Air Force’s Su-30MKI fleet is expected to be armed with I-Derby ER missiles by 2022.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 94546.html
India spent ₹20,776 crore on emergency defence purchase amid border row
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/spec ... 2020-07-25
The air force wants additional shipments of Derby and MICA air-to-air missiles and Spice-1000 precision-guided munitions for its fighters.
Looks like the Airforce most probably has Purchased this under the radar during the Chinese stand off last year
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by nam »

Am I seeing what I am seeing in that 4th image of LCA :D

Edit: okay, it is not. Looks like it is extra support for the drop tanks.
Last edited by nam on 16 Sep 2021 14:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by SinghS »

We don't have hawk eye of the BR veterans. Kindly provide clue for the sake of us earthly beings. :)
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

I think Nam was referring to was dual missile rakes to launch multiple A2A missiles from 1 Hardpoint- even I thought that- the last image with IAF showing an LCA with bolt on AAR probe is definitely a FOC aircraft inducted into the IAF.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by SinghS »

I am not sure, that design looks like it is for the external fuel tank. The first pic also has a similar design. Apart from that seems like the gun is being carried now. I think now it is allowed to be fired. People in knowledge may know better.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Chinmay wrote:Some spectacular images of the Tejas!

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1438395942311378949
Truly amazing photos. Vivek's wish just got fulfilled.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

A picture from Hushkit in his 2019 article shows the Sam in a better angle.

Image
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Manish_P »

Chinmay wrote:Some spectacular images of the Tejas!
...
uuff.. What a bird. Keep them coming... the raw numbers and the photos.

Desperately waiting to see the Tejas in multiple camos.. (no complaints of the current grey mind).

Of course the ultimate wish is to see a multi-squadron elephant predator walk on the runway.. as the IAF Surya Kirans team (also equipped with Tejas, by then) flies overhead with the tricolor smoke-winders
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by ShivS »

Aditya_V wrote:....
Looks like the Airforce most probably has Purchased this under the radar during the Chinese stand off last year[/quote]

Cool - unusual that there is no press release from the OEM.

So a Su30 could carry a R77/27, MICA, Astra or a Derby ER..

Nasty
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

ShivS, you got to love the fact that a Su-30 can carry all that and more :mrgreen:

Waiting for the Super Sukhoi upgrade to commence.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/DesiEscobar07/statu ... 50598?s=20 ---> DARE is working on a light advanced self protection jamming pod for the LCA Tejas MK1 Program. Smaller ASPJ is shorter by 1000mm and weights 50Kg less but diameter remains the same at 300mm.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Vicky »

ADA seems to be scrambling to recertify Mk1's Open Architecture Computer LRU's as per recent rush of tenders. The earlier revision of OAC had PPC4B PowerPC cards which seem to have had a very high failure rate. They are moving to DP-0405 PowerPC cards.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by jaysimha »

quite old.. ( posting for records)
---------------------------------------------------

Hyderabad’s VEM Technologies manufactures Centre Fuselage for Tejas
BY TELANGANA TODAY
PUBLISHED: 26TH JUL 2021 3:00 PM


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VEM Technologies is the production partner for ‘Centre Fuselage’ fabricated in VEM with the support from HAL – LCA Division. The Centre Fuselage is assembled with 1595 parts of Mechanical and Composite structures certified by HAL QC and DGAQA.

The state of the art infrastructure including the Hi-precision Machinery, Metallurgical Processes and Treatments and Pneumo-hydraulic systems, Fuel systems, Automated PCBAs, Composites, RF & MW, Electro-Optics and Electrical Integration facilities is established by the VEM to build the integrated systems for Land, Air and Naval Systems.
https://telanganatoday.com/hyderabads-v ... -for-tejas
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by AdityaM »

Karan M
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Karan M »

Vicky wrote:ADA seems to be scrambling to recertify Mk1's Open Architecture Computer LRU's as per recent rush of tenders. The earlier revision of OAC had PPC4B PowerPC cards which seem to have had a very high failure rate. They are moving to DP-0405 PowerPC cards.
Did they mention a high failure rate and that the MK1 OACs will be upgraded too? Thats good news if they are doing a fleetwide fix.

Those cards were from Radstone UK, I am expecting we will give this contract to a local DRDO partner which already took part in its development.

Good find btw and do keep posting these snippets. Helps us keep track of things going on.

DARE has moved away from PPC, to other newer processors, I suspect the OAC software and architecture was designed around PPC and hence they are seeking to retain compatibility.

Tejas Mk1A will have a completely new mission computer anyhow.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Vicky »

Karan M wrote: Did they mention a high failure rate and that the MK1 OACs will be upgraded too? Thats good news if they are doing a fleetwide fix.
Yes, They mentioned failure rate in the tender. Don't know about the OAC on the Mk1A though.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Karan M »

Vicky wrote:
Karan M wrote: Did they mention a high failure rate and that the MK1 OACs will be upgraded too? Thats good news if they are doing a fleetwide fix.
Yes, They mentioned failure rate in the tender. Don't know about the OAC on the Mk1A though.
The above Mk1 computer, in my estimate, the cards are ready, tender is just a process to be followed. The Mk1A will have a new mission computer, by HAL itself. DARE will do the Tejas MWF MC.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hindus ... 4-amp.html
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by la.khan »

Karan M wrote:The above Mk1 computer, in my estimate, the cards are ready, tender is just a process to be followed. The Mk1A will have a new mission computer, by HAL itself. DARE will do the Tejas MWF MC.
While I am happy that Tejas gets better hardware and/or software, with a new mission computer, will not the IAF insist ADA/DRDO/HAL redo all the tests & validations for Tejas Mk1A? Is this not an opening for IAF to do an Arjun MBT number on Tejas Mk1A?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

If IAF wants to do an aaj ka Arjun with Mk1A, it would anyway do with our without major changes. However, if political is available, it would force for interim order for another 83 Mk1s or more. :P
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Pratyush »

la.khan wrote: While I am happy that Tejas gets better hardware and/or software, with a new mission computer, will not the IAF insist ADA/DRDO/HAL redo all the tests & validations for Tejas Mk1A? Is this not an opening for IAF to do an Arjun MBT number on Tejas Mk1A?

Sir Ji, naat to worry. For all we know IAF identified and highlighted the issue. The agencies will fix those issues and the we will move on.

Validation of hardware will be required in it that it can operate in the full operating envelope of the aircraft.

With the developments of the SU30 systems over 20 years ago and the various Jaguar upgrades. You should not be worried about the future of the Tejas and it's MC upgrade.

I am cautiously optimistic that the backbone of the import lobby has been broken by the government. So no stop gap imports will be forthcoming.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by rrao »

HAL's MCSRDC in BLR has already developed DARIN-III and MIRAGE -2000 upgrade MC successfully. They can use the same boards for OAC upgrade for speeding up.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Vicky »

Karan M wrote:]
Those cards were from Radstone UK, I am expecting we will give this contract to a local DRDO partner which already took part in its development.
Old cards are from Radstone, new cards are by Data Patterns, BLR based off COTS PowerPC VME platform.
https://www.datapatternsindia.com/produ ... menu_id=27

Darin-III, Mirage Upgrade, MKI all use the same LCA OAC/MC platform but different generations. MKI uses an older 386/486 based platform I think. Mk1 used a slightly newer generation which is probably the only gen with such a problem. The OAC/MC has been going through continuous improvement at HAL, ADA and ADE since 1996

Separate newer generation designs are in the works for Mk1A, Mk2, AMCA and the UCAV programs. Some tenders indicate they might move to ARM based platform for after Mk2 but no confirmation.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Nikhil_Naya »

chetak wrote:
Nikhil_Naya wrote:In other news...

Due to high cost of fighter operations, CAG has recommended the GoI to task the DRDO lab GTRE to work with NOM to develop engines that run on Palm Oil...
so, one more country can sanction us

these CAG guys are living in the clouds, no clue about ground realities.
basant wrote:
Nikhil_Naya wrote:In other news...

Due to high cost of fighter operations, CAG has recommended the GoI to task the DRDO lab GTRE to work with NOM to develop engines that run on Palm Oil...
Source? I don't think CAG would say that. If forced, probably they'd argue in favour of coconut/mustard oil :P

Ahem Ahem...another one of my classic OSINT pieces! Now waiting for DFI or ToIlet to pick this and run it...
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by chetak »

rrao wrote:HAL's MCSRDC in BLR has already developed DARIN-III and MIRAGE -2000 upgrade MC successfully. They can use the same boards for OAC upgrade for speeding up.
the IAF may have a very different take on this.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Karan M »

Vicky wrote:
Karan wrote:
Those cards were from Radstone UK, I am expecting we will give this contract to a local DRDO partner which already took part in its development.
Old cards are from Radstone, new cards are by Data Patterns, BLR based off COTS PowerPC VME platform.
https://www.datapatternsindia.com/produ ... menu_id=27

Darin-III, Mirage Upgrade, MKI all use the same LCA OAC/MC platform but different generations. MKI uses an older 386/486 based platform I think. Mk1 used a slightly newer generation which is probably the only gen with such a problem. The OAC/MC has been going through continuous improvement at HAL, ADA and ADE since 1996

Separate newer generation designs are in the works for Mk1A, Mk2, AMCA and the UCAV programs. Some tenders indicate they might move to ARM based platform for after Mk2 but no confirmation.
DP is the DRDO partner I was referring to, and yes those are DP cards, basically ADA is using existing desi designed hardware to replace the earlier units from Radstone.

The other MCs are not the same as the OAC or even the same as each other.

The original MC was the one developed for Tejas LSP. This was adapted for the Su-30 MKI, Jaguar DARIN-2 and the MiG-27 Upgrade. These were all 386 and later 486 based units. All of these were designed by DARE.

The next mission computer was from ADA itself, this was the Tejas Production Variant OAC. This is the one that used Radstone boards.

The next set of mission computers are all from HAL. These include the ones on the new Jaguar, Mirage 2000 and Hawk. HAL itself had a dedicated avionics JV with a mission computer as its primary product and that was likely the reference design for all these programs. They are based on PPC too. I expect one of these designs will be re-used/leveraged by the IAF for the MiG-29 upgrade as well.

The Tejas Mk1A also has a new HAL mission computer, but its based on a new processor architecture.

DARE has a mission computer suite available for the Su30 upgrade too, but HAL will likely prefer its project for that as well if its the lead designer and system integrator.

DARE is handling the mission computer for the Tejas MWF and AMCA. The DARE was looking into moving beyond conventional federated units into a single avionics LRU that would take up a lot of the processing currently split across multiple boxes.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Karan M »

la.khan wrote:
Karan M wrote:The above Mk1 computer, in my estimate, the cards are ready, tender is just a process to be followed. The Mk1A will have a new mission computer, by HAL itself. DARE will do the Tejas MWF MC.
While I am happy that Tejas gets better hardware and/or software, with a new mission computer, will not the IAF insist ADA/DRDO/HAL redo all the tests & validations for Tejas Mk1A? Is this not an opening for IAF to do an Arjun MBT number on Tejas Mk1A?
The Tejas Mk1A has a new mission computer anyhow. It also has several new avionics LRUs for a decent level of sensor fusion.

We need a new mission computer as the existing Mk1 OAC will need to be enhanced significantly to deal with the new functions expected of the Mk1A.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Brad Goodman »

Are the aircrafts rolled out of HAL being handed to IAF? If yes then which Squadron is getting equipped? Looks like I missed the news
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by disha »

AdityaM wrote:Tejas Wind Tunnel Footage!

https://twitter.com/archit_ch/status/14 ... 32614?s=21

Excellent. At 4:25 in the clip above, is it GSLV MkIII being tested in wind tunnel?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by jamwal »

Is small size of Tejas a limiting factor in it's aerodynamic performance? It still has not been cleared for 9G AFAIK. It also seems like canards can't be fitted unless length is increased due to lack of space for instruments required. A lot of design changes like the lengthening of fuselage and addition of canards in Mk-II perhaps are a way of solving these limitations.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

jamwal wrote:Is small size of Tejas a limiting factor in it's aerodynamic performance? It still has not been cleared for 9G AFAIK. It also seems like canards can't be fitted unless length is increased due to lack of space for instruments required. A lot of design changes like the lengthening of fuselage and addition of canards in Mk-II perhaps are a way of solving these limitations.
How would small size limit aerodynamic perf?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by jamwal »

I've only read a few books and articles and trying to see if it makes sense wrt to Mk-II and performance characteristics of Mk-1. Things like engine nozzle size and length affect drag. And a few of things are being modified for Mk-II. So just wondering what could be the limiting factors for Mk-1.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

jamwal wrote:I've only read a few books and articles and trying to see if it makes sense wrt to Mk-II and performance characteristics of Mk-1. Things like engine nozzle size and length affect drag. And a few of things are being modified for Mk-II. So just wondering what could be the limiting factors for Mk-1.
Jamwal Ji Indranil and Nike’s Rane have authored an article on this and lots discussions on aero dynamics wrt to LCA. In short area ruling. MK2 is being designed to reduce transonic and supersonic drag…
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by jamwal »

https://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/ ... er-part-i/
This one, right?

I've read it and was looking for some more information which is available in public domain.
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