Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

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Y I Patel
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Y I Patel »

One thing I noticed is that the pilot seems to be leaning forward even when the aircraft is in steep ascent. I would have thought that in that case the pilot would be pinned back due to g forces. Could some guru explain please?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

It could be due to deceleration.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

ashishvikas wrote:Indranil: SP25 & SP26 both flew today.

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... 39362?s=19
Page 1 updated.

No 18 Sqn has six aircraft flying.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Avtar Singh »

Steep ascent does not lead to g forces... these are a function of the rate of turn.

having high speed and pulling a tight turn will induce highest amount of g force,
needs lots of power to keep the speed during such a tight turn

There might be g on entry into a climb/ascent but continuing to pull g whilst climbing
will result in a loop.

once you are in the climb there is no g force unless you have the power of a
saturn rocket pinning you into the seat
the kind of power most jet engines cannot reproduce even with re-heat
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Y I Patel »

thanks for the explanations!
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by srai »

Kakkaji wrote:Don't want to be a party pooper, but it looks like it will be a while before SP-25 and SP-26 will actually join IAF service, even though they flew today. On the accounting books, they will probably be transferred to the IAF before March 31st.

...
https://www.onmanorama.com/news/india/2 ... ghter.html
...

Normally, a Tejas Mk1 undergoes three test-flights undertaken by HAL’s Test Pilots followed by another three CAF by the IAF pilots. The CAF flight could be undertaken by pilots from Flying Daggers or those from the Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment of IAF.

...
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Kartik »

nam wrote:
srai wrote:^^^
What is the difference between the darker yellow and the yellow composite parts?
Let me give a shot. The yellow parts are actually aluminum sheets, riveted on top on the composites. Take the wings. It is entirely made of composites. Without the aluminum sheet, it looks like grey plastic. However the aluminium sheet makes it look yellow.

I believe the AL sheet is to provide conductivity for lighting strikes. Composites don't conduct.

Riveting these AL sheets on composite wings is a hard job. As composites are tough, it is not easy to rivet. The answer I got for riveting is that it would help in inspecting for cracks and damages.

We are using such high level of composites for the first time, so everyone is being cautious. May be in future, we will get confidence to do away with the riveting.
No they're not Aluminium sheets riveted onto composites. That would beat the very purpose of going with composites. Most of the Tejas' skin is composite.

Best answer would have to come from someone who knows HAL's manufacturing processes and suppliers. Some variations could be due to carbon fiber composite versus glass fiber composite. Other variations could be simply be due to the composite pre-preg being sourced from different suppliers or having a coat of primer on it.

SP-11 on first flight looked like this.

Image

SP-3 on first flight looked like this

Image

An older LSP looked like this..all yellow

Image

SP-01 looked like this prior to painting

Image
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by csaurabh »

All materials metals or composites are not simply used as they are. They are given many layers of protective coating.
The differences in color are probably due to the paint scheme and not much else.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Prem Kumar »

Is there a particular reason why Astra or Asraam isn't integrated with Tejas-Mk1?

Is it because, for 40 airplanes, they don't want to integrate 1 more radar type with Astra/Asraam?

Imagine an IAF pilot in a Tejas with its modern avionics, powerful radar & armed with Astra/Asraam, jack-knifing up from behind mountain cover? How lethal would that be?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Kartik »

Supposedly, Astra integration with Tejas Mk1 is going on.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by chetak »

csaurabh wrote:All materials metals or composites are not simply used as they are. They are given many layers of protective coating.
The differences in color are probably due to the paint scheme and not much else.

It is the primer coat.

The painting has not been completed
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Indranil »

Kartik wrote:Supposedly, Astra integration with Tejas Mk1 is going on.
They are planning to finish qualifications with Mk1A qualifications.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by ashishvikas »

Hi Indranil, please share some new updates on Mk1A if possible.. contract is in place now, so work must be in full swing.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

ashishvikas wrote:Hi Indranil, please share some new updates on Mk1A if possible.. contract is in place now, so work must be in full swing.
Any info on who flew (test pilot name?) SP-20, SP-21 and SP-22? Formerly SP-24, SP-25 and SP-26.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Indranil »

First flights:

SP-25
Image

SP-26
Image

Image
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by srai »

Indranil wrote:
Kartik wrote:Supposedly, Astra integration with Tejas Mk1 is going on.
They are planning to finish qualifications with Mk1A qualifications.
Probably same with ASRAAM plus dual rack and pod jammer.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by ashishvikas »

Rakesh wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:Hi Indranil, please share some new updates on Mk1A if possible.. contract is in place now, so work must be in full swing.
Any info on who flew (test pilot name?) SP-20, SP-21 and SP-22? Formerly SP-24, SP-25 and SP-26.
No information sir.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Prem Kumar »

Indranil wrote:
Kartik wrote:Supposedly, Astra integration with Tejas Mk1 is going on.
They are planning to finish qualifications with Mk1A qualifications.
Indranil: not sure if I understood. Do you mean Astra will only be integrated with Mk1A (or) will it be integrated with Mk1 in the same timeframe as Mk1A integration?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Kartik »

Indranil wrote:
Kartik wrote:Supposedly, Astra integration with Tejas Mk1 is going on.
They are planning to finish qualifications with Mk1A qualifications.
But the Mk1A is at least 3 years away from being produced. Is there any timeframe that you are aware of for Astra integration?

And correct me if I’m wrong, but Mk1A gets a new MC from HAL that’ll feature new architecture and address obsolescence issues with the older MC on Mk1? So basically different MC and radar on the Mk1A compared to Mk1. While aerodynamics will remain similar, integration on both variants will have differences.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

I hope at least they'll integrate I-Derby ER quickly.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

What we need is to intergrate Astra and ramp up production with more orders to concurrently start producing more of them, 49 for Navy + 250 for Airforce +50 preproduction batch less around 20 used in tests.

Hope we are receiving the R-77 -M-1 missiles ordered post Balakot.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by ArjunPandit »

Indranil wrote:First flights:

bootiful images
The build quality seems rafalaesque ...amazing..
seems a sin not to have ordered even Mk1 more. having an additional production line could minimize the so sqdn shortage no.s the earliest..
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Indranil »

Prem Kumar wrote: Indranil: not sure if I understood. Do you mean Astra will only be integrated with Mk1A (or) will it be integrated with Mk1 in the same timeframe as Mk1A integration?
Kartik wrote: But the Mk1A is at least 3 years away from being produced. Is there any timeframe that you are aware of for Astra integration?

And correct me if I’m wrong, but Mk1A gets a new MC from HAL that’ll feature new architecture and address obsolescence issues with the older MC on Mk1? So basically different MC and radar on the Mk1A compared to Mk1. While aerodynamics will remain similar, integration on both variants will have differences.
AFAIK, the MC of Mk1A is different, but the front end is the same as Mk1. This ensures that previously cleared and certified components need not be recertified all over again.

With regards to Astra, instead of doing the whole integration process twice. They are combining it Mk1A certification. Because the Mk1 MC-front end is the same as Mk1A, then can easily port it back to Mk1. Until then Mk1 will be certified and fly with Derby-variants, R73, ASRAAM and Python5.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by V_Raman »

I am fairly confident that more Mk1 orders will come once IAF gets a taste of FOC jets and HAL streamlines the production. They will not let the production line go idle.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Cybaru »

V_Raman wrote:I am fairly confident that more Mk1 orders will come once IAF gets a taste of FOC jets and HAL streamlines the production. They will not let the production line go idle.

There is a lead time required to ensure suppliers plan for it. Order has to come now for it to take advantage of 2022/2023. It may already be too late.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by srai »

V_Raman wrote:I am fairly confident that more Mk1 orders will come once IAF gets a taste of FOC jets and HAL streamlines the production. They will not let the production line go idle.
Wait and see approach doesn’t quite work when it comes to complex products that require 24-36 months lead times. To top that off, the lengthy bureaucratic acquisition process doesn’t help. Look at how long it took to approve and sign contract for 83 Mk1A/trainer order.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by AkshaySG »

Trainers are Mk1 standard are they not?

The order for 10 trainers can be fulfilled by the time Mk1A starts entering serial production
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by sajaym »

V_Raman wrote:I am fairly confident that more Mk1 orders will come once IAF gets a taste of FOC jets and HAL streamlines the production. They will not let the production line go idle.
The LCA IOC & FOC variants will always be viewed as WIP (work-in-progress) aircraft in the IAF ORBAT. So the right thing to do will be to remove these two squadrons from the IAF line up once the MK-1As strength increases past 2 sqdns and use these birds for:

1. As immediate 'gap-fillers' for export customers who have ordered units.
2. They can be given on 'Try & Buy" basis or "Friendly lease" to friendly countries who are interested but cant buy immediately.
3. As part of a MOFTU type organization for imparting training to own & other country trainees and also for providing birds for pt.1 & pt.2. Also, it would be helpful if the MOFTU LCAs can be attached to India's UN missions abroad so as to expose them to some action & generate interest.

For HAL, if it doesn't want the production line to fall idle after the 83 units order then pt.2 makes the most sense.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by srai »

^^^
With IAF squadron shortages, ain’t gonna happen. They need all 6 squadrons of LCA.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Kartik »

basant wrote:I hope at least they'll integrate I-Derby ER quickly.
IAI claimed that all operators and types integrated with Derby could use the I-Derby ER as the weight, interfaces and external shape are the same for both missiles. All changes are internal. But even with that, there may well be some qualification to be done IF I-Derby-ER is procured. As of now, we have only ex-Indian Navy Derby stocks that were transferred to the IAF after the Sea Harrier LUSH retired.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Kartik »

sajaym wrote:
V_Raman wrote:I am fairly confident that more Mk1 orders will come once IAF gets a taste of FOC jets and HAL streamlines the production. They will not let the production line go idle.
The LCA IOC & FOC variants will always be viewed as WIP (work-in-progress) aircraft in the IAF ORBAT. So the right thing to do will be to remove these two squadrons from the IAF line up once the MK-1As strength increases past 2 sqdns and use these birds for:

1. As immediate 'gap-fillers' for export customers who have ordered units.
2. They can be given on 'Try & Buy" basis or "Friendly lease" to friendly countries who are interested but cant buy immediately.
3. As part of a MOFTU type organization for imparting training to own & other country trainees and also for providing birds for pt.1 & pt.2. Also, it would be helpful if the MOFTU LCAs can be attached to India's UN missions abroad so as to expose them to some action & generate interest.

For HAL, if it doesn't want the production line to fall idle after the 83 units order then pt.2 makes the most sense.
We are running short of airframes and you're talking about handing these over to an export customer as a possibility?? Those Bisons' retirement hinges on the Tejas taking over their duties.

Those 36 Mk1s will be upgraded to the Mk1A standard with Uttam AESA, El8222 SPJ pod and possibly even the HAL Mission Computer will be upgraded to that of the Mk1A. They're absolutely vital fighters and need to be fully exploited.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Yagnasri »

IIRC the plan was to upgrade all Mk1s to FOC level in long run. Hopefully that will be done asap.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

I think s/w upgrade was already in progress sometime back. The h/w changes wouldn't be possible as their internal layouts are a little different.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Vivek K »

sajaym wrote: The LCA IOC & FOC variants will always be viewed as WIP (work-in-progress) aircraft in the IAF ORBAT. So the right thing to do will be to remove these two squadrons from the IAF line up once the MK-1As strength increases past 2 sqdns and use these birds for:
Really? What more does the LCA have to be done to be taken seriously? It can do a lot more than the Mig-21 and with a great safety record it makes the perfect platform to exploit. So the IOC and FOC aircraft are more than ready for combat. I would recommend people get a little serious about domestic platforms or else Make in India and Atam Nirbhar slogans will remain just that or maybe turn into Atamhatya for the individuals that respond to the call.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by LakshmanPST »

I think s/w upgrade was already in progress sometime back. The h/w changes wouldn't be possible as their internal layouts are a little different.
Except for internal piping for Air-to-air refuelling, what other hardware differences are there between IOC and FOC aircraft...?
Are there any structural changes from IOC to FOC...?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by nachiket »

Indranil wrote: With regards to Astra, instead of doing the whole integration process twice. They are combining it Mk1A certification. Because the Mk1 MC-front end is the same as Mk1A, then can easily port it back to Mk1. Until then Mk1 will be certified and fly with Derby-variants, R73, ASRAAM and Python5.
I thought the Python5 did not work out because of some aerodynamic challenges with the missile+pylon being carried under the LCA wing. In any case, what is the need to integrate 3 different CCM's? There were reports that the IAF was planning to standardize the ASRAAM as the fleet wide CCM (at least for the MKI, Jaguar and Tejas squadrons once integrated)
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Indranil »

IAI is pushing. They made the modifications. Good to have it qualified. If there is an export customer who wants it, they can have it. We also retain the capability (at the minimum as a bargaining chip). Also, we have Python 5s as part of Spyder. So ....
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by srai »

Image
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

LakshmanPST wrote: Except for internal piping for Air-to-air refuelling, what other hardware differences are there between IOC and FOC aircraft...?
Are there any structural changes from IOC to FOC...?
IIRC, accessibility enhancements for maintenance made on FOCs is another difference.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by srai »

^^^
Nope. That’s Mk1A
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