Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Locked
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4282
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by fanne »

Barath wrote:An old question that came up.

https://thediplomat.com/2017/11/indian- ... ian-skies/

IAF talked of 59 minutes of combat endurance for Tejas vs 3 hrs for Gripen and ~4 for F-16. and payload of ~3 t for Tejas vs 6+ for Gripen and 7 for F-16
Seriously, how is it possible that both Gripen and LCA flying on the same engine (in fact Indian F404 in20 has marginally more thrust than the Swedish one), similar weight class can have so much difference in range, flight time and weapon load.....Unless ADA completely sucked in the aeroframe design, we just designed a flying brick. I doubt IAF would have made such a statement, and if they did, they must have assumed everyone else is a grade A duffer.

Also serious questions to some AE guys here, LCA had issues and inefficiencies due to area ruling etc. (rectified in mk2), is the design that bad? Is there some hidden info about LCA that is not public? The above statement does not past muster even a smell test
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4282
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by fanne »

IN 30 is ready, it is same engine in every way (size etc, except for mass flow, and I do not know if that means intake changes - if yes then a big NO NO), but extra 5-15% thrust will be very welcomed.
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by brar_w »

They may be comparing it to the Gripen E/F instead of the Gripen C since the E/F was being offered at the time. As such, the apt comparison would be to the MWF design and anticipated performance.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

I have no issue with a powerful turbofan. My worry lies with our decision makers who will take eons to come to an agreement. At a future date, when an upgrade for the Mk1A fleet is being considered, a more powerful F404 turbofan can be looked at. Right now, please start with production as per the agreed upon schedule.
srin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2508
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by srin »

ashishvikas wrote:
MORE BIG NEWS!!

"Ordering of the engines, marks a major milestone in the execution of 83 LCA contract with IAF. The co-operation will be further enhanced with the manufacturing of GE F414 engines in India for the upcoming LCA MkII programme"

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 00290?s=19
IIRC, manufacturing of F414 was the RFP condition in the contest that EJ200 lost (I used to have the link and there was a discussion on BRF at that time, but can't find it now), so this is not a great favor for us.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Actually, screwdrivergiri is a step up from direct delivery of the F414 turbofan. You will not learn anything of value (hot section tech), but that was never coming anyway. The impasse and eventual closure of the JETJWG committee illustrated that.
nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9097
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by nachiket »

fanne wrote: Seriously, how is it possible that both Gripen and LCA flying on the same engine (in fact Indian F404 in20 has marginally more thrust than the Swedish one), similar weight class can have so much difference in range, flight time and weapon load.....Unless ADA completely sucked in the aeroframe design, we just designed a flying brick. I doubt IAF would have made such a statement, and if they did, they must have assumed everyone else is a grade A duffer.

Also serious questions to some AE guys here, LCA had issues and inefficiencies due to area ruling etc. (rectified in mk2), is the design that bad? Is there some hidden info about LCA that is not public? The above statement does not past muster even a smell test
This has been more than adequately explained and refuted using data by Indranil and Nilesh in their article on the Tejas, along with several other ridiculous assertions made about he Tejas so far. The article has been linked and discussed here as well when it came out.

Link: https://delhidefencereview.com/2020/05/ ... s-fighter/
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4282
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by fanne »

Thanks for that reminder. And why would Barath keep on regurgitating the same old trash?
suryag
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4040
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:14

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by suryag »

WingCo Varun Singh tons of blessings from all of us. May you live a long, healthy and happy life. You not only saved an Aircraft but by your actions saved the program from a lot of heartburn from lifafas(3rd grade zero knowledge fellows commenting on things way beyond their leagues)
rajsunder
BRFite
Posts: 855
Joined: 01 Jul 2006 02:38
Location: MASA Land

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by rajsunder »

Rakesh wrote:At this stage in the game, F404-IN20 is the way to go. Let them commence with the production of the Mk1A (as per their schedule) and not add any new complications i.e. a better F404 turbofan.

The screwdrivergiri of the F414 turbofan will be good for India, when her own turbofan for the AMCA comes on the scene.
So is the F414 the regular version or the Enhanced Engine?
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by brar_w »

There is no enhanced version (yet). It is just the regular version with changes to support MWF integration.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

rajsunder wrote:So is the F414 the regular version or the Enhanced Engine?
In addition to what brar said above, this is the F414 variant the Tejas Mk2 is going to have ---> https://www.geaviation.com/sites/defaul ... Family.pdf

The F414 is a world class turbofan that will serve the Tejas Mk 2 fleet with elan.

The Americans are the undisputed leader in the field of jet engine technology. Followed by UK (Rolls Royce) and France (Safran) and finally Russia (UEC Saturn and Klimov). India will get there, just like we did with everything else.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ndtv/status/1427634 ... 50502?s=20 ---> HAL has placed an order of USD 716 million (Rs 5375 crores) for 99 F404-GE-IN20 engines and support services with GE Aviation, USA, to power the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft. The contract was signed today at HAL Corporate Office in Bengaluru: Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

Image

Image
vimal
BRFite
Posts: 1902
Joined: 27 Jul 2017 10:32

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by vimal »

Is there anything thats made in India for those engines?
RishiChatterjee
BRFite
Posts: 125
Joined: 19 Jun 2021 09:15

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by RishiChatterjee »

brar_w wrote:There is no enhanced version (yet). It is just the regular version with changes to support MWF integration.
Has F414 got any TVC options?..
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by brar_w »

Yes but none that are operational. If you use the search feature you can dig up some old info I posted about it. GE has a very well design 3D TV nozzle that is still pretty much class leading or close enough. They offered to scale it for the F-404 or 414 when SAAB was considering TVC but since it wasn't pursued, and the USN had no requirement, no one has funded its operationalization.
RishiChatterjee
BRFite
Posts: 125
Joined: 19 Jun 2021 09:15

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by RishiChatterjee »

brar_w wrote:Yes but none that are operational. If you use the search feature you can dig up some old info I posted about it. GE has a very well design 3D TV nozzle that is still pretty much class leading or close enough. They offered to scale it for the F-404 or 414 when SAAB was considering TVC but since it wasn't pursued, and the USN had no requirement, no one has funded its operationalization.
Whoa... we should do it then. 3D TVC even!

It'd be a shame if MWF comes with no TVC against the likes of J-10C getting it. Btw is this the one that you meant I found "search"?

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7261&p=2062552&hilit=Tvc#p2062552
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14331
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

IAF SU30 have TVC , and Rafale does not- TVC is nice to have but does not make a fighter useless. Except for some close quarter dogfights or a few Aerial manvuvers TVC is not a game changer.

J-10C probably getting it because its Russian engine the AL-31 series used in our Su-30 has been having since ages.
Also in Tibet one sees Flankers not J-10, do they Chinese ever explain why?
RishiChatterjee
BRFite
Posts: 125
Joined: 19 Jun 2021 09:15

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by RishiChatterjee »

Aditya_V wrote:Also in Tibet one sees Flankers not J-10, do they Chinese ever explain why?
To make a neutral assessment, I'll go with range reasons had the highest probability... Still I'd prefer if Mark2 had it than not.
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14331
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

Lets Consider it for future upgrades- lets get the LCAMk-2 prototypes ready and Induct as soon as possible. No need scope creep and Unbotium.
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by brar_w »

Pursuing TVC is probably not worth the investment. Better to spend money on engine enhancements to get more thrust, or endurance. At some point in the future, the US Navy will begin planning for upgrades to their Super Hornet fleet in the post 2030 timeframe (hundreds of SH's will be in service b/w 2030 and 2050). This will likely involve thrust or efficiency enhancements for the engine to provide for upgraded radars, and to compensate for range degradation on account of increased weight of larger weapons and new avionics etc. That would be a good time for HAL to look to either upgrade, or replace the current F-414 engine modules and capture those enhancements. That investment would have a much better ROI since it would directly impact almost all the missions for MWF and the early AMCAs with the F414.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Indranil »

^^^ +1
RishiChatterjee
BRFite
Posts: 125
Joined: 19 Jun 2021 09:15

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by RishiChatterjee »

Aditya_V wrote:Lets Consider it for future upgrades- lets get the LCAMk-2 prototypes ready and Induct as soon as possible. No need scope creep and Unbotium.
Yes.. I believe I'd read about the 110kN-class one eventually going to MWF as an MLU, we even modeled a saw-toothed nozzle on MWF.

That's gotta be 3d TVC. Because that'll go to AMCA Mk2.
Roop
BRFite
Posts: 664
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Roop »

RishiChatterjee wrote:That's gotta be 3d TVC. Because that'll go to AMCA Mk2.
I don't understand this remark, a clarification would be appreciated.

The way I see it, Su-30MKI already has 3D TVC because it is a twin-engined aircraft, i.e. the thrust is vectorable in 3 rotational DOFs (degrees of freedom): each engine's nozzle can vector in the vertical plane (giving the aircraft a DOF around the pitch axis), in the horizontal plane (giving the aircraft a DOF around the yaw axis) and the two engines vertically in opposing directions (giving the aircraft a DOF around the roll axis).

So what more is required that is not already there? TIA.
RishiChatterjee
BRFite
Posts: 125
Joined: 19 Jun 2021 09:15

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by RishiChatterjee »

Roop wrote:
RishiChatterjee wrote:That's gotta be 3d TVC. Because that'll go to AMCA Mk2.
I don't understand this remark, a clarification would be appreciated.

The way I see it, Su-30MKI already has 3D TVC because it is a twin-engined aircraft, i.e. the thrust is vectorable in 3 rotational DOFs (degrees of freedom): each engine's nozzle can vector in the vertical plane (giving the aircraft a DOF around the pitch axis), in the horizontal plane (giving the aircraft a DOF around the yaw axis) and the two engines vertically in opposing directions (giving the aircraft a DOF around the roll axis).

So what more is required that is not already there? TIA.
OT
Su-30 won't be around forever. AMCA Mark2 will take over pretty much. So they need to have a TVC engine, or we'll lose whatever skillis learnt about using a thrust-vectored jet in past 20years.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20772
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Karan M »

The Su30 will be around for two more decades IMHO.
RishiChatterjee
BRFite
Posts: 125
Joined: 19 Jun 2021 09:15

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by RishiChatterjee »

Karan M wrote:The Su30 will be around for two more decades IMHO.
Yes, but AMCA Mark2 will enter in 2040 probably, atleast 8-10years after Mark1... Last of the Su-30s will be out by 2045/50.

So we need it 3D TVC replacement for the air-superiority job, no?.. I know BVR prospects are getting better but so is EW. It cannot be predicted if supermaneuverability won't to be needed anymore.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 47748?s=20 ---> HAL will send it's bid to sell 18 Tejas Mk-1A fighter jets to the Malaysian Air Force in 3rd week of Sept, says HAL CMD. Adds, "Regions which have exhibited interest in the LCA Mk-1A are Eastern Europe, South Asia, West Asia and South America".
KSingh
BRFite
Posts: 504
Joined: 16 Jun 2020 17:52

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by KSingh »

SP26 Seen today, by the revised numbering system wouldn’t this make it the 10th FOC SP single seater?

https://twitter.com/ksingh_1469/status/ ... 77699?s=21

Edit. It’s the ‘new’ SP-22 which makes it the SIXTH FOC single seater

All sat in hangers at HAL, what is the delay in handing them over to IAF? Think we are likely to see 10-11 FOC SPs ready by March 22 at this rate
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Indranil »

It is earmarked for Mk1A mods, tests and certification.
KSingh
BRFite
Posts: 504
Joined: 16 Jun 2020 17:52

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by KSingh »

Indranil wrote:It is earmarked for Mk1A mods, tests and certification.
SP-22? What about the other 5?


I thought a few LSPs had already been running MK1A equipment?
RishiChatterjee
BRFite
Posts: 125
Joined: 19 Jun 2021 09:15

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by RishiChatterjee »

KSingh wrote:
Indranil wrote:It is earmarked for Mk1A mods, tests and certification.
SP-22? What about the other 5?


I thought a few LSPs had already been running MK1A equipment?

Yes, but some(?) might come in as FOC+ only. Here (http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 4-amp.html) it reads;
“The preliminary design review is over and so is the critical design review for several systems, including mission computer, digital map generator and digital flight control systems. We are integrating the active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar and the electronic warfare suite on the final operational clearance (FOC) version of the LCA. After it is proven there, we will integrate it on the final Mk-1A version,” the HAL chairman said.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/14027 ... 20386?s=20 --->

Having built the foundation for a 100-story sky scraper, we aren't going to stop at the first floor...

The whole world knows, we've cracked it. The future belongs to us.

Image
putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4665
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by putnanja »

IAF chief RKS Bhadauria flies Tejas MK 1 FOC fighter in Bengaluru
Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria flew a Tejas single-seater light combat aircraft MK1 FOC fighter during his visit to IAF and flight test establishments and facilities of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bengaluru.

During his two-day visit on August 23-24, the Chief of the Air Staff (CAS) also visited the Software Development Institute (SDI), the unit tasked with undertaking the development of avionics software.
...
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14331
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

Headline states FOC aircraft but wordings state IOC Aircraft is LA-5012 an FOC or IOC Aircraft. IAF Twitter handle states ACM flew in Tejas Mk1 Aircraft- no mention of FOC or IOC. I think main difference between the 2 will be lack of GSH 23 Canon and Bolt on Bolt off Refuelling probe in FOC aircraft.

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1430 ... gr%5Etweet
mody
BRFite
Posts: 1362
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by mody »

The photo accompanying the report does not show a air to air refueling probe on the aircraft.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/ia ... tp#image=1
basant
BRFite
Posts: 889
Joined: 20 Mar 2020 20:58

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

FOC's probe can be removed.
LakshmanPST
BRFite
Posts: 673
Joined: 05 Apr 2019 18:23

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by LakshmanPST »

LA5012 is from the IOC order... But the headline mentions FOC...
Also, all 16 jets from IOC order were already delivered to IAF... So, what is this jet doing in HAL facility...?
-
My guess is---> IOC jets are being upgraded to FOC standard barring the refuelling probe... This is one of the upgraded jets...
OR
It was just a typographical error and I'm expecting too much...
ks_sachin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2906
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

LakshmanPST wrote:LA5012 is from the IOC order... But the headline mentions FOC...
Also, all 16 jets from IOC order were already delivered to IAF... So, what is this jet doing in HAL facility...?
-
My guess is---> IOC jets are being upgraded to FOC standard barring the refuelling probe... This is one of the upgraded jets...
OR
It was just a typographical error and I'm expecting too much...
Or an a/c flew in from Sulur for this photo op?
Locked