Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

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williams
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by williams »

chetak wrote:
Neela wrote:One way to sales is bring development partners for components.
Invite Malaysia Indonesia for development of landing gear , or a new project etc and hook them into Lca and other military sales.
For example a military cargo plane of c130 type development jointly funded by 3 countries will ensure cost distribution + guaranteed sales + RoI + 1000s of jobs
Also sale of military gear is leverage.

two ummah countries and one kaffir country, how does that even work
Why not? It's just business. Other kafir countries will make money and threaten to take over us if we don't. Besides once we have influence they will dance to our tunes or atleast stay neutral.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Cyrano »

Absolutely right Chetak & Aditya_V. I didn't elaborate since OT for this thread. Dietary use of palm oil is no good. Please check ingredients list carefully for ready to eat & processed food. If palm oil is mentioned, please avoid. GoI has launched a program to improve oil seed cultivation. But I also hear NE states are being studied for palm oil tree plantations. Thats a doubly harmful move, lose high quality forest cover for nutritionally bad palm oil. If you want to discuss more, we should go to Economic forum.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Nikhil_Naya »

In other news...

Due to high cost of fighter operations, CAG has recommended the GoI to task the DRDO lab GTRE to work with NOM to develop engines that run on Palm Oil...
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by chetak »

Nikhil_Naya wrote:In other news...

Due to high cost of fighter operations, CAG has recommended the GoI to task the DRDO lab GTRE to work with NOM to develop engines that run on Palm Oil...
so, one more country can sanction us

these CAG guys are living in the clouds, no clue about ground realities.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

Nikhil_Naya wrote:In other news...

Due to high cost of fighter operations, CAG has recommended the GoI to task the DRDO lab GTRE to work with NOM to develop engines that run on Palm Oil...
Source? I don't think CAG would say that. If forced, probably they'd argue in favour of coconut/mustard oil :P
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Vivek K »

By setting up ridiculously small production facilities for LCA and with resources being limited to merely replacement of retiring fighters, India (MOD, IAF, DRDO, HAL) has put its national security on the line. The depleted force with portions facing obsolescence at any given time and guarding hostile borders is stretched to its limits. Forget force projection, the IAF’s mission for the next 2 decades it seems will be limited to homeland defense.

We have failed to use our money wisely - choosing expensive imports as a quick fix instead of building domestic capability and capacity. With China as the second superpower on our Northern border, we are not well prepared for the battles to come. Our Pak centric ecosystem needs to grow rapidly (don’t know if PSUs understand the meaning of rapid) to counter China.

The only way to build numbers to match the Chinese is domestic MIC. Priority should be accorded to LCA MK1A and MK2 that are within current capabilities to come to fruition rapidly. And their development should be expedited with IAF involved in all decision making. Manufacturing capabilities for 50 jets a year at least should be prepared. At this point HAL has not delivered a single aircraft for over a year now. So what capabilities really exist?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Vivek K »

What's holding up MK1 deliveries? It seems that HAL cannot even produce 1 aircraft per year at present? Can someone shed light on the impact of Covid-19 on domestic MIC?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

Tejas production should have been higher, but that was contingent upon MoD's determination and vision. However, 4 FOCs were delivered this year, so I am confused as to why you say not a single a/c was delivered over a year now.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Vivek K »

The crux is - bigger production facilities should have been put in place instead of diverting funds for expensive imports. That is the only way to protect the homeland.

Can you provide a source for the 4 FOC deliveries. I may have missed it but it seems we continue to be told that 5-6 FOC aircraft are ready and will be handed over "this month". I was beginning to feel "this month" will never come.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

LA-5019, LA-5020, LA-5021 and LA-5022 all had their first flight in 2021.

FWIW....I have been advised that all four are delivered to No 18 Flying Bullets Sqn.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

Vivek K wrote:Can you provide a source for the 4 FOC deliveries. I may have missed it but it seems we continue to be told that 5-6 FOC aircraft are ready and will be handed over "this month". I was beginning to feel "this month" will never come.
Sp-21 and Sp-22 FOC Tejas MK1 takes to Air
These are the last 2 I think. The full list was posted by Adm Rakesh in Mk1 thread.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Vivek K »

Taking to air is different from deliveries, respectfully.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Vivek K »

That is heartening if correct. HAL is committing to delivering 10 more by March 2022. Will this be a one shot delivery?

Does that put 18 Sqdrn at 7 units?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

Why should this info be publicly available? I mean, it's no more the first few we are talking about and this is routine stuff.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

I believe there are six units (LA-5017 and LA-5018 had their first flights last year) in No 18 Squadron, but not sure.

More units - I don't know how many - will arrive before end of the financial year in March 2022.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

@ Vivek, I echo basant. I track only first flights and not deliveries. No need to advertise squadron strength.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Vivek K »

No disagreement with that Admiral. I sometimes get the feeling that deliveries are higher than advertised here. Why would HAL keep aircraft that are ready in its inventory?

We need robust production of LCA and to ensure that HAL must ensure the best resources and healthcare for its workers!
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

I would look look to the 83 Mk1A order for robust production. That will be the true measure of success for HAL.

Let them iron out whatever issues - if any exist - they have with the Mk1. This is the time to learn.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

HAL did okay with IOCs, then there was a disruption with FOC wrt production and deliveries. Going by recent report on first mid-air incident handling, it appears that ADA, HAL and IAF are working well together. That is heartening.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Brad Goodman »

I agree though OT we are importing $11B worth of edible oil for domestic consumption. If you decide to import healthy Avacardo or Olive oil in that quantity then the bill will be way more than current $11B, plus there might not be enough to supply, Currently the futures of Palm are up 60% that is why Govt had to cut duties to control prices. That oil is going mostly into commercial uses from Lays & Haldiram to soaps and shampoos as well as restaurants and eateries. Only very poor families buy it for home use.
FYI. Biggest commercial use oil in US is cottonseed oil. All ready to eat food & restaurants use it since it is cheapest, I doubt it is any better than Palm.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by RishiChatterjee »

Rakesh wrote:LA-5019, LA-5020, LA-5021 and LA-5022 all had their first flight in 2021.

FWIW....I have been advised that all four are delivered to No 18 Flying Bullets Sqn.
Ok, now that would be really good news.... We'd heard new of 1st flights, but not further delivery.
Vivek K wrote:Why would HAL keep aircraft that are ready in its inventory?
Ongoing process of Astra, SAAW, EW integration.. I assumed.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

There are LSPs to use for trails. So I doubt it.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by RajaRudra »

basant wrote: Going by recent report on first mid-air incident handling, it appears that ADA, HAL and IAF are working well together. That is heartening.
Which incident ji? While its a great thing that Tejas is a Safety success for HAL, we should also support the production agency to the tilt if at all any incident happens(praying it should never be...).

Import wallas journalists will be pumped up and put up articles in various news portals pinpricking on tejas.

------------------------------
Thank you Pratyush for the update
Last edited by RajaRudra on 13 Sep 2021 13:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Pratyush »

It was a mid air incident.

The pilot was recognised for his skill and dedication to service and received a gallantry medal from the IAF.

Having said so, I don't worry about import pasand journalist any more. Because they exist as part of a system which consists of services and political parties.

Take them out of the equation the journalists don't have any ability to do anything.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

This was the incident. That there was no unnecessary hullabaloo or grounding on pretext of safety speaks highly of IAF's commitment.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Neela »

williams wrote:
chetak wrote:

two ummah countries and one kaffir country, how does that even work
Why not? It's just business. Other kafir countries will make money and threaten to take over us if we don't. Besides once we have influence they will dance to our tunes or atleast stay neutral.
Absolutely. Simple fact is the LCA type market is massive. For small to medium sized countries, it is a perfect solution with a significant cost advantage. Grab the market. Get the big spenders , tie them down into the lsupply chain and make them develop components. Open up the weapons interface to let them tweak it to custom local demands. You will open up the market in return. We are using the import leverage with Malaysia. Why not technology leverage. But you need a bait for it.

Same for Emb 145 based Netra. Such a shame. Such a shame. How does one recover the cost of development sunk into it?
Sell it South America, Africa or East countries. If you sell 30 of them and get a services contract, your till will be ringing for the next 30 years.
If you dont, China will ...or probably has. Wait for Comac C919, the A320 equivalent. In 20 years, before we all die, you will see 100s of them flying across the globe.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by RajaRudra »

basant wrote:This was the incident. That there was no unnecessary hullabaloo or grounding on pretext of safety speaks highly of IAF's commitment.

Kudos to the Pilot. Single handedly saved the program(by saving the product in his hand).
As an institutional reform, we must normalize failures and incidents so as to give the leeway to the developers and encourage them to try new envelops.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by chetak »

Neela wrote:
williams wrote: Why not? It's just business. Other kafir countries will make money and threaten to take over us if we don't. Besides once we have influence they will dance to our tunes or atleast stay neutral.
Absolutely. Simple fact is the LCA type market is massive. For small to medium sized countries, it is a perfect solution with a significant cost advantage. Grab the market. Get the big spenders , tie them down into the lsupply chain and make them develop components. Open up the weapons interface to let them tweak it to custom local demands. You will open up the market in return. We are using the import leverage with Malaysia. Why not technology leverage. But you need a bait for it.

Same for Emb 145 based Netra. Such a shame. Such a shame. How does one recover the cost of development sunk into it?
Sell it South America, Africa or East countries. If you sell 30 of them and get a services contract, your till will be ringing for the next 30 years.
If you dont, China will ...or probably has. Wait for Comac C919, the A320 equivalent. In 20 years, before we all die, you will see 100s of them flying across the globe.
I don't want to rain on your parade but without a home brew engine the LCA is hamstrung as far as exports are concerned, dependent as we will be on ameriki permission to export the GE engine, which will not be forthcoming.

Because of the cheeni presence, we may not even be allowed to sell GE engined LCAs to the beedis, nepal or even the sinhala.

The same with the 145. The customer will have to procure the standard 145, bring it to India for the modification which we can do. What if the customer is not allowed to buy the 145 for such end use.

even a country like israel says bring your own platform and we will modify it as per your specs. we will not procure any platform for you.

Integration of weapons and missiles are not the problem. There are equipment which (in India) is designated as (GFE) Govt furnished equipment. To stretch a point, customer owned systems like weapons and missiles may slide through for installation on the LCA.

the market is there for guys who can sell the entire package without restrictions.

BTW, one or both of these ummah countries may have some sort of alliance with the pakis and that makes it more than just business as our hardware may be directly accessible to the unwashed abduls
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Vivek K »

chetak wrote:
I don't want to rain on your parade but without a home brew engine the LCA is hamstrung as far as exports are concerned, dependent as we will be on ameriki permission to export the GE engine, which will not be forthcoming.

Because of the cheeni presence, we may not even be allowed to sell GE engined LCAs to the beedis, nepal or even the sinhala.

The same with the 145. The customer will have to procure the standard 145, bring it to India for the modification which we can do. What if the customer is not allowed to buy the 145 for such end use.
No pain, No gain. So should this be given up without even trying? If it were that easy for the Chinese to access American tech - they would have clones of the F-16 from PAF's use of them. (Note the J-10 is a poor copy of the Israeli Lavi).

Netra's and LCA should be exported. If the customer cannot buy a new 145 - guess what - buy used. Perhaps HAL should do that perhaps and buy used 145s.
the market is there for guys who can sell the entire package without restrictions.
You do have a point there but I would say that - "the leaders in the arms export market have access to all techs that go into the final product". But we're not looking to be "leaders" of the export market yet. Just making small sales here and there.

So question for you - how did the Chinese produce so many Mig clones? Did they reverse engineer their power plants - or license produce them?
BTW, one or both of these ummah countries may have some sort of alliance with the pakis and that makes it more than just business as our hardware may be directly accessible to the unwashed abduls
And so will Pakistan sell them spares for Malaysian LCAs? Or perhaps provide software upgrades for problems that may come up? Are we giving Pakis more credit?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by chetak »

Vivek K wrote:....
why provide chances for the pakis to examine, devise counters and understand the enemy's fighter aircraft or their EW and surveillance capabilities

BTW, the israelis sold them the lavi tech (obviously, without the ameriki engine). They have used it to upgrade their design and manufacturing.

the J-10 is a development offshoot. The lavi was dead in the water anyway, as the amerikis made it very clear that they did not appreciate competition on the fighter export front.

what the israelis did with the Kfir is a very different story and that is probably the root cause of their bad relations with the frenchies
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Vivek K »

Bade bhai - there is only a discussion for the potential sale. We need to use this as an investment to identify the acquisition systems of foreign governments. Need to identify key persons in the chain that must be handled as necessary etc. You will need to do this once you have a super dee duper platform with engine and other techs.

I am a failed marketing man but my failures teach me a lesson that it is not only the best products that are sold. If that were the case, the Chinese would never have sold even one example of their Mig clones.

But think about what was posted - an order for 30 Netras - how much does it help the local MIC? BRF is riddled with pimps for imports hawking Rafale, Mig 35, Gripen and what not! Invest in an expected failed effort.

Do you think Malaysia would like to buy a complex fighter from an enemy (not that we are enemies)? They would be suspicious of trapdoors and trojans that could be exploited. So instead of naysaying be supportive of the process and the investment. Perhaps we could sell them HTT-40 or the IJT if not the LCA or maybe some ships , or some Arjuns. Let the talks happen and support the efforts. Its a long shot - but the payoffs would be tremendous.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by chetak »

Vivek K wrote:Bade bhai - there is only a discussion for the potential sale. We need to use this as an investment to identify the acquisition systems of foreign governments. Need to identify key persons in the chain that must be handled as necessary etc. You will need to do this once you have a super dee duper platform with engine and other techs.

I am a failed marketing man but my failures teach me a lesson that it is not only the best products that are sold. If that were the case, the Chinese would never have sold even one example of their Mig clones.

But think about what was posted - an order for 30 Netras - how much does it help the local MIC? BRF is riddled with pimps for imports hawking Rafale, Mig 35, Gripen and what not! Invest in an expected failed effort.

Do you think Malaysia would like to buy a complex fighter from an enemy (not that we are enemies)? They would be suspicious of trapdoors and trojans that could be exploited. So instead of naysaying be supportive of the process and the investment. Perhaps we could sell them HTT-40 or the IJT if not the LCA or maybe some ships , or some Arjuns. Let the talks happen and support the efforts. Its a long shot - but the payoffs would be tremendous.
start small and build from there.

no exports of crown jewels because our production cannot even meet internal requirements.

Everyone uses basic trainers and advanced trainers.

Vessels made specifically for the coast guard patrol vessels, both harbor and ocean-going tugs, fleet tankers and amphibious assault ships, fishery research vessels

and remember the dhruv sales fiasco. HAL didn't know jack about product support. All they understand are "cost +10% contracts" which they use to rook their customers. There are no commercial customers willing to enter into such a stoopide contract. HAL management is too risk averse to enter into any other contract, other than maybe a variation of the "cost +10% contract"

They also "exported" dorniers to druk air with a built in maintenance contract and that was another costly fiasco.

urgent need for professional product and tech support staff, not the tired potbellied union worker, passing his time chewing pan

By pulling strings at the ministry level, the DPSUs have shut down a lot of private players that are capable because the DPSUs didn't want competition, thus seriously hampering the growth of the MIC ecosystem.

barath forge, godrej, L&T, mahindras, tatas and the kalyani group have proven far too powerful for the DPSUs to suppress or sideline.

The transport aircraft contract for the tatas has left a lot of sulking faces in the DPSUs as well as the ministry.

my last on this
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by YashG »

Vivek K wrote: Let the talks happen and support the efforts. Its a long shot - but the payoffs would be tremendous.
Agreed, let them try. We might not end up making a sales but the experience will be worth the learnings. We will succeed, even if we fail. At worst, we will make some chai-biskoot babus to learn to move a leg.

While about selling family jewel - that is not a problem we need to solve now. If against all odds, we do end up making a LCA sale - we will find ways to not divulge our best secrets - some ways to export a different config. Given the delivery of any such deal is atleast 4 years ago.

Third, about not being able to manage internal demand - argument is viable only if we're producing at our max internal rate. I think we can produce a lot more than we are right now. Engines apart - nothing is stopping us form doing 25-50 MK1A an year in a 2-3 year ramp up from now.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by chetak »

Tata's Apache fuselage line near Hyderabad
image via@livefist

A majority of the employees are ex PSU. Many of those who wilfully wouldn't work there, whiling away their time, but are sweating here.

Image
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

:rotfl: So true chetak-ji, so true.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by mody »

Not placing additional orders for Tejas Mk1/MK1A is sheer stupidity. Only 6 squadrons to replace the 6 squadrons of Bison plus 2 squadrons of Mig-27s. Not to mention the the 2 squadrons of old Jaguars.

Apart from making up the numbers, we need to address our weakness in mass production. There is hardly an ecosystem for airplane manufacturing in India and that too is being setup along with the Tejas program. We need this production line humming at a minimum 24 aircrafts per year, to get it ready for the Tejas MK2, AMCA and TEDBF productions to follow. Besides the private sector companies that have made the investments to start producing major components large the fuselage sections and the wings etc. besides so many other parts, also should be given higher numbers to stabilize their production line and also amortize the cost of their investment in a shorter duration of time. In addition to that for composite parts, the drawings will change for Tejas MK2. Hence production for the fuselage sections etc. will be less than 100 nos as per the current orders.

At current rate of production the planned 350 IAF aircrafts, plus 80-100 TEDBF aircrafts would take more than 20 years to build. Besides single engine cheaper to operate aircrafts can help increase the numbers for IAF, without breaking the bank.

The Tejas MK1A with the Elta 2052 or Uttam Aesa radar, Astra MK1, Astra MK2, I-Derby-ER, Python-V, R-73E, RudraM-1 etc, plus all the air to ground weapons, plus Elta 8222 or comparable indigenous EW pod, digital RWR, SDR etc would be superior to the upgraded Mk2's except for the range and also superior to the Mig-29s.

More importantly superior to the Block 52 F-16s that the PAF has.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Vivek K »

If wishes were horses.....! But quite rightly put. It is a shame that such miniscule production rates were supported and now with the pandemic's hit these have also fallen by the wayside. We need to focus and learn from this to ramp up to larger volumes. Buy 150 GE engines at a time and look accelerated production.

If they keep these meagre orders only, IAF will fall short of its required fleet strength.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by RishiChatterjee »

RishiChatterjee wrote:Until real photos with Derby-ER & Python-5 together come forth, make do with these...

Image
Image
1st is CAP configuration with 4 Derby-ER & 2 Python-5... 2nd is endurance configuration with 3 droptanks, with a pair Derby & Python each.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

Derby or Derby-ER?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by nits »

Do we have any creative pic showing Mark 1, Mark 1A and Mark 2 side by side
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