Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

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basant
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

God! I-Derby ER integration test was there too, or what? "...to validate enhanced capability of already integrated Derby Beyond Visual Range (BVR) AAM". Not sure if it is I-Derby ER or just updated I-Derby.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by srai »

Kartik wrote:...

That makes the Tejas the deadliest WVR fighter in the IAF today. The combo of the DASH HMDS and Python V is deadly and can engage targets in an almost 360 degree sphere almost upto near BVR ranges. The Mirage-2000I with MICA-IR is the only one nearly as capable but I don't see HMDS being used on the Mirage-2000I, which gives the Tejas Mk1 an advantage over the Mirage-2000I in WVR combat.

...
IAF's French Mirages Fly With Russian Missiles, Thanks To Israeli 'Jugaad'
Written by Vishnu Som
Updated : July 11, 2019 12:20 pm IST

In Air Force circles, its been referred to as the ultimate 'jugaad' or innovative fix - mating a Russian air-to-air missile to an Israeli helmet mounted display to be worn by an Indian pilot flying a French-built Mirage 2000 fighter.

...

Eventually, the integration did take place, with more than a little help from engineers from the Israeli firm Elbit, which, by then, had been contracted by the IAF to supply its sophisticated DASH helmet-mounted display, a device which projects mission-critical information to the pilot's eyes.

But mating the R-73 missile to the DASH helmet was easier said than done. "There were key challenges," says an IAF officer aware of the integration challenges. "This was a new helmet and we were working without source codes." In other words, algorithms had to be developed for the radar of the Mirage and the Israeli helmet mounted sight to "talk" to the Russian missile. Without proper algorithms and modified software, the integration of the Russian missile would have been impossible. "Neither French or Russian help was taken. They were obviously upset," says the IAF officer but the 'jugaad' itself worked. "The R-73 missile was more capable than the Magic II that it replaced."

More details of this unprecedented upgrade of the Mirage lie buried in 'Indian Air Force: The Case for Indigenisation', a book edited by the late Air Commodore Jasjit Singh, one of the most prolific analysts of the IAF. In his chapter in the book, Air Marshal A.K Nagalia, the former Deputy Chief of the Air Staff refers to how Israeli engineers were given access to the Mirage's highly-sensitive Digibus, essentially a chipset which is the carrier of information from various sub-systems in the aircraft to its mission computer and back. "Elbit and Rafael, Israeli original equipment manufacturers of DASH and Crystal Maze systems undertook the responsibility of integrating their systems on the aircraft but we had to give them access to the aircraft for it."

Once this access was given, Israeli engineers, "by extensive trials, were able to decode the [data] bus protocol and integrated their systems on it." But this access did come with a cost. "We could be blamed for Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) violation," says Air Marshal Nagalia. "The Israelis were the beneficiaries of gaining an insight into this system architecture."

... "The Mica is about four times more capable than the R-73 in close combat and is integrated with the (Israeli) DASH helmet mounted sight as well," says an IAF pilot familiar with the upgrade process.

...
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by srai »

basant wrote:God! I-Derby ER integration test was there too, or what? "...to validate enhanced capability of already integrated Derby Beyond Visual Range (BVR) AAM". Not sure if it is I-Derby ER or just updated I-Derby.
I believe the original Derby integration used remaining IN ex-Sea Harrier stocks. Old version.

I-Derby would probably be in stock from Spyder SR system. But more likely potentially latest I-Derby ER variant that Su-30MKI was reportedly also being integrated with to give parity to AMRAAM C-5/7.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by srai »

ashishvikas wrote:Official Press Release.

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1714563
Interesting tidbits
...

Trials were also aimed to validate enhanced capability of already integrated Derby Beyond Visual Range (BVR) AAM on Tejas. The test firing at Goa completed a series of missile trials to validate its performance under extremely challenging scenarios. Derby missile achieved direct hit on a high-speed maneuvering aerial target and the Python missiles also achieved 100% hits, thereby validating their complete capability. The trials met all their planned objectives.

...

...At Goa, after successful separation trials, live launch of the missile on a Banshee target was carried out. Python-5 missile live firing was conducted to validate target engagement from all aspects as well as beyond visual ranges. In all the live firings, missile hit the aerial target.

...
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by srai »

X-posting

Tejas (radiance) ...living up to its name!

https://twitter.com/DefenceMinIndia/sta ... 61985?s=20

The
@DRDO_India
is going to set up 500 Medical Oxygen Plants within 3 months under PM CARES Fund.

The Medical Oxygen Plant technology developed by DRDO for On‐Board Oxygen Generation for LCA, Tejas will now help in fighting the current crisis of Oxygen for the COVID-19 patients.

Image
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Kartik »

basant wrote:Great news! Derby ER is the icing on the cake! :D

@Kartik, the range of Python-5 being 20 km is still about of half of near BVR range (20 nm). Or am I missing something?
Enhanced capability does not necessarily mean that the Derby-ER was tested.

Enhanced capability could do with how data is being shared with the Tejas after being fired (Dual datalink), or having another Tejas provide guidance to the Derby while the Tejas that fired it is nose cold with it's radar turned off.

Would need someone really authoritative to confirm this.
Last edited by Kartik on 28 Apr 2021 18:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by nash »

DRDO
@DRDO_India
Replying to
@DRDO_India
Video of Python-5 firing from Tejas

https://twitter.com/DRDO_India/status/1 ... 7267571712
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by srai »

^^^
Good point! Hopefully someone like Indranil, AK, Vishnu Som et al will shed more details on the testing in the coming days.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by srai »

basant
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

@Kartik, if it is a firmware update then it won't just be IAF or Tejas would be getting it. If it isTejas firmware, them it won't be enhanced missile capability. I am confused and probably that's written for the same purpose :|
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 36448?s=20 ---> Many more details of the Python and Derby missile launches here. DRDO conducts maiden trial of Python-5 Air to Air Missile.

DRDO conducts maiden trial of Python-5 Air to Air Missile
https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1714563
28 April 2021
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/138 ... 79297?s=20 ---> Object tracker patch. They are very much like position markers to identify known points on the aircraft, for analyzing video footage, can also be used as reference points in simulations.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/138 ... 34080?s=20 ---> The flutter issue has been resolved, Python 5 CCM got successfully test-fired from LCA TEJAS. Congratulations DRDO!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Kartik »

basant wrote:@Kartik, if it is a firmware update then it won't just be IAF or Tejas would be getting it. If it isTejas firmware, them it won't be enhanced missile capability. I am confused and probably that's written for the same purpose :|
Not sure how it matters if it won't be just the IAF or Tejas getting it? Other users of Derby may also be getting those software updates if it was missile related.

If it was related to the Tejas, it still has to be tested since it overall enhances the missile's capability. It could be radar/software/datalink related, we just don't know.

Or it could just be the I-Derby-ER which would be fantastic news.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Vips »

Earlier issues with firing of Python 5 from Tejas resolved:

basant
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

Agreed. We really needed good news these days and we've got a couple of them on a single day! :)
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by chetak »

For context, this means that the Tejas fighter has been successfully integrated with the Israeli Python 5 short-range air to air missile widely considered among the best in the world. Along with the Israeli Derby missile, this jet fields an exceptionally capable air to air arsenal. @VishnuNDTV
Tejas, India's indigenous Light Combat Aircraft, added the 5th generation Python-5 Air-to-Air Missile (AAM) in its weapons capability yesterday, 27th April 2021. Trials were also aimed to validate enhanced capability of already integrated Derby Beyond Visual Range (BVR) AAM.
via@DRDO_India
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by ArjunPandit »

Does this change get reflected in other Tejas' immediately ? or does it come into after some time..i would think that s/w changes may be easier to bring into but other changes impacting airframe (as flutter is involved) but h/w changes would take some time...
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Shameek »

Excellent news! Once again demonstrates the immense advantage of having our own platform. Continue making step changes and adapting to requirements. These lessons learnt can then reduce the development time on future projects and platforms. I hope this mentality continues to spread through the system.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Exactly Shameek. With appropriate use of tactics and exploiting the full capabilities of the Tejas Mk1A platform, the need for 114 fourth gen MRFA will diminish over time. Cancel the contest and acquire 36 more Rafales. Order more Mk1As instead. Tejas is the game changer, not 114 phoren fighters. 83 Mk1As is too little anyway.

With the money saved from the 114 MRFA boondoggle, invest that money in Mk2 development, Tejas production lines and AMCA. The quicker these platforms are inducted, the need for 114 MRFA will be eliminated.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by basant »

ArjunPandit wrote:Does this change get reflected in other Tejas' immediately ? or does it come into after some time..i would think that s/w changes may be easier to bring into but other changes impacting airframe (as flutter is involved) but h/w changes would take some time...
I don't think any h/w change would be made for Tejas as it could fiddle with its other characteristics. It must be Python that must have been adapted.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Vivek K »

So instead of harping for more Rafales, IAF should order more Mk 1As and cry hoarse about late deliveries. Perhaps set up of a private assembly line should be next?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by srai »

^^^

Matter of time ...

More orders ... more production options
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by nachiket »

I doubt we will see more orders for the Mk1A. The IAF might choose to wait for the Mk2 instead if the program proceeds according to plan. The Mk2 promises a significant leap in capability over the Mk1/1A in terms of payload/range as well as avionics. The current Mk1 and 1A orders themselves will take most of this decade to finish being delivered, and can then be quickly followed by the Mk2 which should hopefully be ready for induction by then.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by sankum »

Tejas mk1 LIFT order of 40 to 50 can be expected.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Vivek K »

^^^^ Chaiwallah or paanwallah news?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Vips wrote:Earlier issues with firing of Python 5 from Tejas resolved:
BTW is the test aircraft carrying a centerline EFT? Good news there as well.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by YashG »

nachiket wrote:I doubt we will see more orders for the Mk1A. The IAF might choose to wait for the Mk2 instead if the program proceeds according to plan. The Mk2 promises a significant leap in capability over the Mk1/1A in terms of payload/range as well as avionics. The current Mk1 and 1A orders themselves will take most of this decade to finish being delivered, and can then be quickly followed by the Mk2 which should hopefully be ready for induction by then.
Unless we accelerate the tejas/derivatives production ecosystem and scale it by 5 times; target Mk2 deliveries asap - it is deshdroh now. Besides Mk2 and its derivatives. Our spending power was restricted and it will be further so now given what our nation is going through. The Mk2 ecosystem is capable of scaling up; generate a leap in our MIC and preparedness. This nation has the technical capability. Some hard unpopular decisions have to be taken.
Last edited by YashG on 30 Apr 2021 07:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by hemant_sai »

200% with YashG.
To hold production of MWF because Mk1A deliveries will be pending is no less than sin.

Establishing dedicated line for MWF for parallel production along Mk1A is not a bad idea at all. Current capacity of 16/year for Mk1A is enough.
We need capacity for another 16 for MWF.
Those same can be transitioned to next decade production of TEDBF/ORCA/AMCA/GHATAK/CATS.

Also we are expecting export orders.

It is our urgent need to have all the infra ready in advance. Mod must make it a high priority with HAL and provide necessary assistance.

MWF deliveries should start from early 2026, so production must start in 2025.
IAF should come up with production plans in block fashion. Block1 should be with minimal essentials to have a ready combat platform better than Mk1A addressing shortcomings of Mk1A.

Capabilities like N/W centric warfare, Sensor fusion, integration with CATS can wait for next block version.
For me current bottleneck is only Uttam radar and it should have highest priority. Also hopefully at least 1 proto of MWF will be with M88-4 engine.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Kartik »

Cain Marko wrote:
Vips wrote:Earlier issues with firing of Python 5 from Tejas resolved:
BTW is the test aircraft carrying a centerline EFT? Good news there as well.
Not center line, but the port side wing mounted drop tank. It's an asymmetric configuration. If it was a center line drop tank it wouldn't be partly masked by the fuselage.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by jaysimha »

Ministry of Defence
DRDO conducts maiden trial of Python-5 Air to Air Missile
Posted On: 28 APR 2021 1:18PM by PIB Delhi
https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1714563
Trials were also aimed to validate enhanced capability of already integrated Derby Beyond Visual Range (BVR) AAM on Tejas. The test firing at Goa completed a series of missile trials to validate its performance under extremely challenging scenarios. Derby missile achieved direct hit on a high-speed maneuvering aerial target and the Python missiles also achieved 100% hits,
Prior to these trials, extensive missile carriage flight tests were conducted at Bengaluru to assess integration of the missile with aircraft systems on board the Tejas, like Avionics, Fire-control radar, Missile Weapon Delivery System and the Flight Control System.

At Goa, after successful separation trials, live launch of the missile on a Banshee target was carried out. Python-5 missile live firing was conducted to validate target engagement from all aspects as well as beyond visual ranges. In all the live firings, missile hit the aerial target.

The missiles were fired from Tejas aircraft of ADA flown by IAF Test pilots belonging to NFTC.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

Those wordings hopefully mean Derby ER version.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by YashG »

If it is derby er, whats stopping them from calling it so ? If it was er version they would have called it so!?

What will calling it enhanced Capability achieve - confuse or enemy?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by nachiket »

YashG wrote: Unless we accelerate the tejas/derivatives production ecosystem and scale it by 5 times; target Mk2 deliveries asap - it is deshdrohi now. Besides Mk2 and its derivatives. Our spending power was restricted and it will be further so now given what our nation is going through. The Mk2 ecosystem is capable of scaling up; generate a leap in our MIC and preparedness. This nation has the technical capability. Some hard unpopular decisions have to be taken.
Target Mk2 deliveries? There isn't even a prototype built yet. Who or what is deshdrohi (treasonous) in this?
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Vivek K »

I think that the post is exhorting all to do their best (not saying they aren't) to expedite all possible aspects to allow the country to field a formidable defence against the enemy. In that respect, if there were any avoidable delays, that would be treasonous especially faced with Chicom.

Look at Vikrant - already in delivery status. Compare to the time for the initial negotiation for Gorky and then further negotiations (read blackmail) for change orders by roos of additional $2 billion. So make in India and make Indian delivers big time therefore IAF should be placing additional orders and ask HAL to get its act together.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by krishna_krishna »

YashG wrote:If it is derby er, whats stopping them from calling it so ? If it was er version they would have called it so!?

What will calling it enhanced Capability achieve - confuse or enemy?

Deliberate to confuse. Here is the video of tejas firing all weapons, Python5, Derby, R-73 (I wish we can see Astra with this list ASAP):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBIk0oD3JwU
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by YashG »

nachiket wrote:
YashG wrote: Unless we accelerate the tejas/derivatives production ecosystem and scale it by 5 times; target Mk2 deliveries asap - it is deshdrohi now. Besides Mk2 and its derivatives. Our spending power was restricted and it will be further so now given what our nation is going through. The Mk2 ecosystem is capable of scaling up; generate a leap in our MIC and preparedness. This nation has the technical capability. Some hard unpopular decisions have to be taken.
Target Mk2 deliveries? There isn't even a prototype built yet. Who or what is deshdrohi (treasonous) in this?
I have corrected the post - deshdroh instead of deshdrohi. My post isn't targeted at any person.

Ofc mk2 prototype isnt ready but we should target the deliveries asap. So everything in the development to production chain has to be accelerated.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Rakesh »

YashG does that not mean the same thing? I am genuinely asking.

You cannot accelerate developmental timeframes. Everything has to be tested and certified.

You can however accelerate delivery timeframes. But that comes AFTER development.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by Kartik »

Janes is reporting that the Derby variant that was tested is the I-Derby ER, although they're just taking the reference from the Press Information Bureau's report and not other sources.

India test fires Python 5 AAM from Tejas
India’s government-run Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has conducted the first test-firings of the Israeli-made, imaging infrared (IIR)-guided Python 5 air-to-air missile (AAM) from a Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

In a 28 April statement the Indian government’s Press Information Bureau (PIB) said that the trials, which took place the previous day over Goa in southwestern India, were aimed at adding the fifth-generation, short-range missile – made by Rafael Advanced Defense Systems – to the LCA’s air-to-air weapon capabilities.

The Python 5 test-firings were the last in a series of missile trials designed to validate the aircraft’s performance under “extremely challenging scenarios”, noted the PIB, adding that the I-Derby ER (extended range) beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM), which is also made by Rafael, was also test-fired.

The Derby missile “achieved [a] direct hit on a high-speed manoeuvring aerial target and the Python missiles also achieved 100% hits, thereby validating their complete capability”, noted the PIB, adding that the trials “met all their planned objectives”.

The LCA used for the missile trials belonged to India’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and were flown by Indian Air Force (IAF) test pilots, said the PIB.

The bureau noted that prior to these trials extensive missile carriage flight tests were conducted at Bengaluru to assess the integration of the Python 5 with other systems aboard the Tejas, including avionics, the fire-control radar, the missile weapon delivery and the flight control systems.
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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 04 January 2021

Post by deejay »

All these HMDS, Derby, Python, IRST etc etc makes me think. The training required for pilots are increasing as these systems need to be learnt. Also, the systems are proliferating across Sqns and not limited to the uber M2K sqns.

Is the existing MOFT kind of set up enough or will we in some time see the creation of a dedicated LIFT Sqn? Need creates its own demand, right?
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