Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Ramana-ji, my post was tongue-in-cheek. I fully agree and I would like to take it a step further. Someone needs to formalize the counterpoints into an article and publish it. I am appalled that as a former Defence Secretary of India, this is his argument.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by Neela »

As India's dependence increased, the domestic defence industry's growth was stunted. Efforts at bringing Russian manufacturers to enter into JVs with Indian MSMEs have not borne fruit.
So the secretary's argument to stunted domestic industry is to .........import more ?!
The LUH , given the volumes (600!!! ) , has enough potential to be as large as initial tejas order and also to get more private players into long term commitments and them funding their own R&D. If we are able to plug in the HTSE , we are potentially creating a fully indigenous platform .
The LUH will go really far. The secretary's pitch seems like last throw of the dice.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by Anujan »

Rakesh wrote:Ramana-ji, my post was tongue-in-cheek. I fully agree and I would like to take it a step further. Someone needs to formalize the counterpoints into an article and publish it. I am appalled that as a former Defence Secretary of India, this is his argument.
I am not sure any deep thought went into it -- The article has gems like these:
India also needs to gain competence in manufacturing a twin-engine helicopter, like the Kamov226T.
I thought Dhruv and Rudra were both twin engined? Last I checked, >300 Dhruv/Rudra have been delivered and is in operation.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by nachiket »

Rakesh wrote:Ramana-ji, my post was tongue-in-cheek. I fully agree and I would like to take it a step further. Someone needs to formalize the counterpoints into an article and publish it. I am appalled that as a former Defence Secretary of India, this is his argument.
Anujan wrote: I am not sure any deep thought went into it -- The article has gems like these:
India also needs to gain competence in manufacturing a twin-engine helicopter, like the Kamov226T.
I thought Dhruv and Rudra were both twin engined? Last I checked, >300 Dhruv/Rudra have been delivered and is in operation.
Just goes to show what a cesspool the MoD can be. No wonder Parrikar ji hated working there. And it might also reveal why we still struggle to get large orders for indigenous systems. This character will definitely not be the last of his kind over there.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by ramana »

Rakesh I want the full text so we can refute it. All along people blame the services when the rot is in the babucracy too.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by vipins »

Link
The manufacture of the Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), which has received the Initial Operational Clearance, is also in advanced stages with HAL’s new facility in Tumkur set to be ready by March. The government recently informed in Parliament that four Limited Series Production (LSP) LUH would be manufactured by 2022-23 and eight LSP LUHs by 2023-24.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by Cybaru »

Twitter reporting. Clap clap clap! Hope its true!

https://twitter.com/Sandeep_Mave/status ... 17441?s=20

"Breaking: Kamov ka 226 and IGLA deal cancelled in favour of indigenous options"
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by sanjayc »

Modi govt scraps missile, chopper tenders to push 'Make in India'
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 469_1.html
In line with the Narendra Modi government's push for promoting 'Make in India', the Defence Ministry on Friday decided to withdraw tenders for deals related to buying short-range surface-to-air missiles and 14 helicopters.

The meeting, however, allowed the forces to go ahead with a deal to buy air-to-ground missiles from France and overhaul of Russian helicopters, government sources told ANI.

The Defence Ministry has started reviewing the import deals under the Buy Global category which are fully acquired from foreign vendors.

A number of deals have been put in the closure and deferment list by the Defence Ministry and with the ministry discussing whether they can be closed in favour of Indian vendors or developers.

The foreclosure and deferment lists include deals like the Very Short Range Air Defence Systems, towed artillery guns, vertically launched surface-to-air missiles, shipborne unmanned aerial systems, additional P-8I surveillance aircraft along with the MiG-29 combat aircraft.

Deals under the Foreign Military Sales route like the General Purpose Machine Guns are also in the list and a missile deal is also going to be scrutinised.

The multi-billion-dollar Kamov-226 helicopter deal with Russia has also been put in the list. The Kamov-31 shipborne choppers along with the Klub class anti-ship missiles are also in the list. A number of classified projects are also in the list which would be taken up for discussion.]

The initiative came after Prime Minister Modi took a review meeting with the Defence Ministry officials, including the then Chief of Defence Staff General Bipin Rawat, where it was felt that strong measures would have to be taken to ensure that the country moves firmly towards Aatmanirbhar Bharat in the defence sector.

The Prime Minister has been personally reviewing the progress of Make in India initiative in the defence sector and has from time to time asked officials in both services and the Defence Ministry to ensure that more steps are taken to promote Make in India in the defence sector.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by mody »

For for LUH will now exceed 400 units. MoD should start placing the orders on time and HAL needs to ramp up production to a minimum 36 units per year for LUH. Along with additional orders for ALH and the expected orders for LCH, HAL should plan for production of upto 60-72 helicopters per year, at a minimum.

The coast guard requirement for larger helicopters is also likely to be cancelled and will mean additional ALH for CG.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by Prem Kumar »

This is music to our ears. Kudos to the PM, RM & the late CDS!

Now lets hope bulk orders for Indian systems are placed, given that the other door has been firmly shut
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by VickyAvinash »

This is great news. Der aaye, drust aaye (late decision wiser nonetheless). Kudos to Government to stand against import lobbies and deliver this. True service to nation.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by Rakesh »

sanjayc wrote:Modi govt scraps missile, chopper tenders to push 'Make in India'
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 469_1.html
This is fantastic news. Very happy with the Govt's decision. Yeh Jingo Khush Hua!

The LUH is any day better than the Ka-226. Mass order - in triple digits - is now the next step.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by Cybaru »

Maybe clearing decks and reallocating resources to order a follow on deal for Su30s and Raffies.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by hanumadu »

Looks like Russia is going to get some other big order.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by SRajesh »

^^^Wonder what it could be??
Some Naval Assets??
Cant be flying types! :roll:
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by John »

hanumadu wrote:Looks like Russia is going to get some other big order.
Not likely till Ukraine standoff ends it would hard for any deal to be signed.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by Rakesh »

For copyright reasons, I am not posting the article in here. But click on the link below.

https://twitter.com/Dark_ReaperX666/sta ... 14017?s=20 ---> An interesting and detailed article about HAL LCH published on AFM February, 2022 Edition. Hope you guys will like it.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by sankum »

LUH data from above;
Range: 217 miles(350 km)
Payload: 1102 lb (500 kg)
Speed: 145 mph (233 kmph)

Engine :1430 shp Ardiden 1U
MTOW: 6872 lb (3113 kg)
Empty weight: 4211 lb (1908 kg)
Altitude ceiling: 21325 ft (6.5 km )
Highest helipad 309 lb(140 kg) payload at 19000 ft.
165 lb (75 kg) payload to 19685 ft.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by Bharadwaj »

sankum wrote:LUH data from above;
Range: 217 miles(350 km)
Payload: 1102 lb (500 kg)
Speed: 145 mph (233 kmph)

Engine :1430 shp Ardiden 1U
MTOW: 6872 lb (3113 kg)
Empty weight: 4211 lb (1908 kg)
Altitude ceiling: 21325 ft (6.5 km )
Highest helipad 309 lb(140 kg) payload at 19000 ft.
165 lb (75 kg) payload to 19685 ft.
Saar, the 75kg at 19.6k ft is the spec the customer wants but the article shows that this is beaten by a 2 fold margin at the highest helipad(either amar or sonam) which are above 19k ft. The ka-226 order is going to be history very soon and for obvious reasons. The LUH looks a winner and is a winner. But the twin engine dhruv is still the king at high altitudes- 600 kg plus lift was demonstrated at Siachen.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by sankum »

Gotton old .Used magnifying lens. What I understood that requirement was 165 lb and 166 lb was achieved or cleared.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by Bharadwaj »

light-utility-helicopter-could-be-perfect-replacement-for-ageing-cheetahs-chetaks

https://www.theweek.in/theweek/specials ... etaks.html
The LUH’s top speed is 240kmph, but it can only carry around 75kg at the peak of its operational ceiling. But it is an improvement on the Cheetah and Chetak, which can carry only 30kg to 40kg. “We aim to increase the LUH’s capacity, but nothing has been finalised, yet,” said Chatterjee.
The Army, however, wanted some more improvements in the rudder margin, which plays a major role in controlling the yawing motion of a helicopter. After incorporating the changes, HAL completed the test flights

It should be noted that the AFM article above thread clearly says the nominal 75kg spec has been beaten in testing.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by Malayappan »

HAL Results Conference Call Transcript

Page 4 -
..regarding both the LCH and the LUH ....the procedures involved is that first they will give you a limited series production order that is for 12 LUH and 15 LCH has already come in. After that they have some time utilizing this and any changes if they are required they have to bring it in. Generally it is one year for that to happen after we supply the first aircraft and in this case they might do it earlier because they are in a hurry to place the orders also for the larger number so that happens then the balance or aircrafts which is already cleared up by the DAC will be put for RFQ... - (Madhavan CMD)
Q: Based on your experience would that be in 2023-2024? Answer(Madhavan CMD): At least two years from now. At least two years it will take. ........(on Naval UH) ....we have already discussed with them the possibilities of converting the existing ALH for the LUH and the initial order they are planning to place is for 40 followed by the balance number as per the LUH program requirement
later in response to another question in page 13,
Q: ..about the 15 LCH orders and are you getting anymore LUH orders, new orders in the pipeline? Answer (Madhavan CMD): After the initial orders executed that will happen this year then that it will take sometime probably a year's time before start of activity for the main order. Main order is generally around 140 odd aircrafts are pending so they will start action for that. We expect the order placement not before two years from now
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by KSingh »

Finally some updates (with pics) of Tumkur

https://twitter.com/chethan_dash/status ... x5SGGO4s7g

Quite sickening to see all the infra but know the IA/IAF have only committed to 6 each when phase 1 of the site’s production plan is 30/year. They’d have to have a few hundred orders to even justify that forget about their phase 2 plans (60/year)


The most they are talking about is 180 units and for some reason the KA-226 is still being forced on HAL?


Cannot have world class industry without serious support from local users, that’s the missing piece now
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by KSingh »

https://twitter.com/ksingh_1469/status/ ... 4bqIhtJu5w

So this is the game they are going to play? What happened to 400 LUH/RSH requirement? 114 LCH (plus 65 for IAF)?


All whilst pushing for 11 more gold plated apaches. The last 6 AH-64E cost IA ~$1bn, what will 11 more cost? How many LCH/LUH can be bought for that
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by KSingh »

ramana wrote:Rakesh We should discuss the arguments made in the above article for it reveals a lot.
What? I’ve haven’t read such nonsense in a while :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


There was MAYBE some justification for KA-226 in 2015 when LUH was nowhere near ready but in 2022 with it having passed every single development milestone? KA-226 wasn’t needed in 2020/21 and certainly not in 2022 after Russia has created a war in Europe.


The article is just typical HAL bashing in favour of imports but the biggest joke is they simultaneously say KA-226 is needed and HAL needs a competitor- Russian Helicopters signed an MOU with HAL to assemble the KA-226 in the EXACT SAME facility as the LUH. So every KA-226 that is assembled is one less LUH that will see service


That this article even dares to say india/HAL lacks expertise in 2 engine helicopters in 2021 with 300++ ALH flying and the LCH in production shows they’ll go to any length to justify the unjustifiable(importing basic utility helicopters when you have a superior option on the table at home).


Name one SQR the LUH has not met or exceeded
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by Anujan »

the article has obviously stupid statement like
India also needs to gain competence in manufacturing a twin-engine helicopter, like the Kamov226T.
The *only* thing that Kamov226T brings to the table is a coaxial rotor system

Note that Sikorsky Raider X is a coaxial rotor helicopter, and India should master the tech of multi rotors (tandem rotors like Chinook and tilt rotor like Osprey).

Not sure Kamov will share the tech -- coaxial rotor tech is a crown jewel of Kamov.

If they dont share the tech, we will be doing screwdrivergiri without understanding the design rationale of coaxial rotor system.

Going by T90 ammo saga, its probably screwdrivergiri
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by nachiket »

Building the Ka-226 in India will have the same effect on our our ability to design and manufacture a coaxial rotor system that building the AL-31's in India had on our domestic engine program....which is none.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by Prem Kumar »

There is a piece on Chindu that the IA gave the LOI for the 12 LUH airframes. That 9 out of 15 LCH have been manufactured and are in the process of being delivered. The LOI BS is for airframes that the HAL built on its own accord, without any orders from the armed forces

But the real news is the shilling for the 11 additional Apaches!

There is another shocker:
In addition, the Request For Quotation (RFQ) for the larger order for LUH RFQ has also been issued, one source stated.

HAL is in the process of responding to the RFQ and expects to conclude the related issues in one or two years, the source stated.
Its from "sources", so a pinch of salt is warranted. But what in the world is 2 years to respond to an RFQ for birds that are already in Production?

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 707237.ece
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by KSingh »

Anujan wrote:the article has obviously stupid statement like
India also needs to gain competence in manufacturing a twin-engine helicopter, like the Kamov226T.
The *only* thing that Kamov226T brings to the table is a coaxial rotor system

Note that Sikorsky Raider X is a coaxial rotor helicopter, and India should master the tech of multi rotors (tandem rotors like Chinook and tilt rotor like Osprey).

Not sure Kamov will share the tech -- coaxial rotor tech is a crown jewel of Kamov.

If they dont share the tech, we will be doing screwdrivergiri without understanding the design rationale of coaxial rotor system.

Going by T90 ammo saga, its probably screwdrivergiri
When has Russia ever shared meaningful ToT? Even today the SU-30MKI has to get specialist parts and tooling from Russia


Has no one learned that there’s no shortcuts by now?
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by KSingh »

Prem Kumar wrote:There is a piece on Chindu that the IA gave the LOI for the 12 LUH airframes. That 9 out of 15 LCH have been manufactured and are in the process of being delivered. The LOI BS is for airframes that the HAL built on its own accord, without any orders from the armed forces

But the real news is the shilling for the 11 additional Apaches!

There is another shocker:
In addition, the Request For Quotation (RFQ) for the larger order for LUH RFQ has also been issued, one source stated.

HAL is in the process of responding to the RFQ and expects to conclude the related issues in one or two years, the source stated.
Its from "sources", so a pinch of salt is warranted. But what in the world is 2 years to respond to an RFQ for birds that are already in Production?

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 707237.ece
I *believe* that that RFQ is for the larger batch of series production after the 6+6 LSP is completed


Either way it’s abundantly clear that they are paying stupid games as usual to kill numbers of another IDDM project


https://twitter.com/ksingh_1469/status/ ... rGAgm15WvQ


https://twitter.com/ksingh_1469/status/ ... rGAgm15WvQ
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by Prem Kumar »

Yes, I know the RFQ is for the larger order. The question is, why does it take 2 years to complete the process? Will the assembly line be idle till then and start in 2024? I am sure the Chinese will be patient.

And yes, the IA seems to be playing tricks with the numbers. It was 114. Now, we are hearing numbers like 95, with mountain units being 7 (with 10 choppers each). 114 --> 95 --> 70 .....

The only saving grace is that Ka-226 is dead. Or maybe the IA Chandigarh lobby is praying for a regime change in 2024, post-which the gravy train can continue
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by KSingh »

Prem Kumar wrote:Yes, I know the RFQ is for the larger order. The question is, why does it take 2 years to complete the process? Will the assembly line be idle till then and start in 2024? I am sure the Chinese will be patient.

And yes, the IA seems to be playing tricks with the numbers. It was 114. Now, we are hearing numbers like 95, with mountain units being 7 (with 10 choppers each). 114 --> 95 --> 70 .....

The only saving grace is that Ka-226 is dead. Or maybe the IA Chandigarh lobby is praying for a regime change in 2024, post-which the gravy train can continue
I agree when I saw the 2 year timeframe for the RFQ I was disappointed, 2 years means 3+ years before a contract.

Currently the 6+6 LSP are being made, all to be handed over by March 2024.


I suppose the only hope is that HAL continues with their self-finding approach and after LSP is complete they commence series production in anticipation of the final contract.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by Prem Kumar »

One thing is clear. Our Services Chiefs are clearly not preparing to win a war. They are barely preparing to fight one.

The jawan-of-the-soil is the one who saves the day each time, while the Staff College types spout nonsense about 5th generation warfare that they read about in brochures & wait for their turn boarding the import gravy train.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by mody »

The other sad part is that the larger numbers for the LUH being talked about, is still 187 and not close to 400 nos. that are needed. pelase recall that the earlier proposal was for 194 Ka-226T and 187 LUH to be produced. Now with the Ka-226T all but dead and the LUH having met all the requriements or exceeded them, the logical thing would be to ramp up the number to close to 400. Yet, all reports still mention the larger order numbers as 187. This will not allow HAL to ramp up production to minimum 36-48 LUH per year, as the total order quantity will simply not be enough.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by Pratyush »

What is it that compells the services to accept the product produced without any production orders from them.

They can simply say that we will not accept this product for XYZ reasons. Who is going to hell that cat?
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by Pratyush »

https://idrw.org/luh-wsi-hal-starts-wor ... erivative/

LUH-WSI: HAL starts work on attack-orientated derivative

September 10, 2022
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by SRajesh »

Premji
Wait for some for 'Winter Han Return' in Ladakh area, all emergency requisitions will be back on full swing like Negev, SigSauer etc:
who knows Ka-Whirly, Sprut will be bought
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by mody »

Pratyush wrote:https://idrw.org/luh-wsi-hal-starts-wor ... erivative/

LUH-WSI: HAL starts work on attack-orientated derivative

September 10, 2022
Has the IAF or IA raised any such requirement or have they asked for an armed variant of the LUH? The WSI-Rudra is ready and being inducted in numbers. There is very little rationale for WSI-LUH variant as well. Seems like a waste of resources by HAL, if the service's have not explicitly raised the requirement. Resourced which would be better spent on increasing the production rate of the LUH.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by Thakur_B »

Chetak and Cheetah were used in armed variants. LUH WSI was inevitable.
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Re: Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

Post by YashG »

Pratyush wrote:https://idrw.org/luh-wsi-hal-starts-wor ... erivative/

LUH-WSI: HAL starts work on attack-orientated derivative

September 10, 2022
how is LUH_WSI substantially different than LCH or Rudra?

What niche will it fill ? Is it for exports, nations who need lowcost attack helis?
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