Light Utility Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 16 Feb 2023 15:14

I believe the ALH has it. So no harm in waiting for a few months to get this resolved satisfactorily. Its not as if these new birds will go from the production floor to Saichen straight away.

Also what makes you say that autopilot is peripheral? It may be an important req for flying in some areas.

Maybe getting the autopilot done in service ac could mean having to take them of the flight line for a bit. Something not necessarily desirable in those areas.

Who knows?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Feb 2023 20:42

sachin saar, can I repeat the same question that Bharadwaj asked above ---> does the Chetak and Cheetah have an autopilot?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Feb 2023 04:16

IAF’s Only Chopper Pilot Chief Just Flew The LUH. And Loved It.
https://www.livefistdefence.com/iafs-on ... -loved-it/
16 Feb 2023

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 17 Feb 2023 04:24

Rakesh wrote:sachin saar, can I repeat the same question that Bharadwaj asked above ---> does the Chetak and Cheetah have an autopilot?

I don't know Admiral. But if you say the IA/AKF does not need the autopilot to be fully operational before deliveries just because Chetak and Cheetah and did not have it then I will trust your judgement. Since I don't know what is the last mile work that is required to get the autopilot to be fully operational.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 17 Feb 2023 06:06

Bharadwaj wrote:Based on other reports doing the rounds in the media, the autopilot integration appears to be the hold up for deliveries...

Any links to these reports?
Thanks

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 17 Feb 2023 07:12

nachiket wrote:
Bharadwaj wrote:Based on other reports doing the rounds in the media, the autopilot integration appears to be the hold up for deliveries...
Any links to these reports?
Thanks

Not able to locate it now but it was from around the time of the chetaah crash late last year. I then dismissed it as BS but given the comments of the COAS at aero india about having asked for additional capabilities including autopilot as well as the quote form the program head above it seems to have been true. The original article IIRC referred to the autopilot having been part of the commitments from HAL and the cause of delay.

Edit: got it now

https://theprint.in/defence/army-wives- ... d/1159417/

Sources said that HAL will be producing four LUHs this year and eight next year but deliveries will not happen until the contract is signed.

Also as per Request for Quotation (RFQ), the first LUH should have AFCS (Automatic Flight Control System). But it is not yet certified and hence the deliveries of these 12 choppers will happen only during 2023-24.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 17 Feb 2023 10:37

1) The Tumkur facility is massive and ready, but will be idle very soon
2) LUH development & the first prototypes have been internally funded by HAL
3) Rigorous tests over 5-6 years has proven the rotor-craft in all conditions. Everyone who has flown it loves it!
4) IOC and Army Acceptance tests cleared
5) MoD has placed an initial order of 12 LUHs
6) 50% Capex yet to be consumed before FY 2022-2023 ends

How did auto-pilot appear as a requirement at the 11th hour? IMO, the auto-pilot can bloody well wait till the next tranche. Get the first lot ordered before March 31 & prevent further Cheetah crashes!

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 17 Feb 2023 11:52

You have not read the previous post!!

AFCS was promised by HAL.

basant · Post by **basant** » 17 Feb 2023 13:09

ks_sachin wrote:You have not read the previous post!!

AFCS was promised by HAL.

Does this mean that the production of LUH can commence but not the deliveries?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 17 Feb 2023 13:13

Will the forces even order the machine without the equipment certified?

basant · Post by **basant** » 17 Feb 2023 13:27

Pratyush wrote:Will the forces even order the machine without the equipment certified?

They may reorder them too. Like Tejas Mk1A.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 28 Feb 2023 20:38

LUH LSP1 out on a sortie!
@HALHQBLR

https://twitter.com/gaur_av_iation/stat ... 444Jg&s=19

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Apr 2023 12:35

Storm in a teacup as usual.

Shubham · Post by **Shubham** » 03 Apr 2023 19:17

Requirement of Autopilot in a Helicopter ?

Autopilot can be a mandatory requirement or an optional depends on Helicopter static and dynamic stability for the desired speed regime, CG positions, Altitude of operation.

What Autopilot/Stabilization Chetak /Cheetah has , Has absolutely no bearing on what is required in LUH.

In chetak / Cheetah in allowed flight regimes, where ever there is unstable divergence it is easily controllable by the pilot. Hence to fly chetak, a pilot expends moderate effort to keep Helicopter flying the way he wants and rest of the mental and physical wherewithal is used for mission related tasks. Since there were not many mission avionics in chetak, and missions were not too complex and weight was at premium. Autopilot/Stabilization was not incorporated (though I believe it was tested on some prototype).

Some Helicopter are not controllable without Autopilot

For Dhruv, it is possible to fly it like Chetak, with Autopilot off. But the difference in effort required is like riding a mono cycle wrt ridding pillon on a rapido.

Additionally, the safety of autopilot is a must have feature. If you enter clouds or get disoriented. Just engage speed hold, Altitude hold, heading hold, and leave controls. Let helicopter come into straight and level flight, relax take stock of situation and press few buttons to tell helicopter where to go to.

So, if Autopilot is being demanded:
1. Either in some flight conditions LUH is not easy to fly .
2. The safety and mission accomplishments demand an Autopilot.

basant · Post by **basant** » 03 Apr 2023 21:32

IMHO opinion LUH autopilot requires only s/w upgrade that could be done retrospectively. But as the trend goes...

“All trials on the four LUH prototypes are over. The last set of trials to establish LUH’s extra manoeuvrability concluded in Ladakh this week. The army and IAF wanted some changes and LUH performed much better than expected,” said a second official.

Source: First LUH military variant to make maiden test flight next August

Also:

All certification activities like Ground testing, Ground Test Vehicle endurance runs, system testing, Flight testing including hot weather trials, cold weather trials, sea level trials and hot weather high altitude trials have been completed. Based on the flight trials carried out, all PJSQR requirements for basic helicopter certification have been complied satisfactorily.

Source: PIB Delhi

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 04 Apr 2023 01:57

Shubham wrote:Requirement of Autopilot in a Helicopter ?

Autopilot can be a mandatory requirement or an optional depends on Helicopter static and dynamic stability for the desired speed regime, CG positions, Altitude of operation.

What Autopilot/Stabilization Chetak /Cheetah has , Has absolutely no bearing on what is required in LUH.

In chetak / Cheetah in allowed flight regimes, where ever there is unstable divergence it is easily controllable by the pilot. Hence to fly chetak, a pilot expends moderate effort to keep Helicopter flying the way he wants and rest of the mental and physical wherewithal is used for mission related tasks. Since there were not many mission avionics in chetak, and missions were not too complex and weight was at premium. Autopilot/Stabilization was not incorporated (though I believe it was tested on some prototype).

Some Helicopter are not controllable without Autopilot

For Dhruv, it is possible to fly it like Chetak, with Autopilot off. But the difference in effort required is like riding a mono cycle wrt ridding pillon on a rapido.

Additionally, the safety of autopilot is a must have feature. If you enter clouds or get disoriented. Just engage speed hold, Altitude hold, heading hold, and leave controls. Let helicopter come into straight and level flight, relax take stock of situation and press few buttons to tell helicopter where to go to.

So, if Autopilot is being demanded:
1. Either in some flight conditions LUH is not easy to fly .
2. The safety and mission accomplishments demand an Autopilot.

Autopilot is a nice to have feature but it’s not essential for military aviation- particularly helicopters and the Chetak/Cheetah the LUH replaces has no such features and are daytime VFR only. The LUH is all weather, day/night capable with a full IFR certification on top of that its raw performance is ~3-4x the Cheetah at high altitudes and likely has a longer range/endurance on top of all other features of a contemporary flying machine. That IA/IAF aren’t furiously trying to get the LUH in serious numbers to replace the 1950s era junk they currently fly is beyond my comprehension.

+ yes the LUH has fully digital flight controls so an autopilot would be a very simple retrospective fix.

As usual Indian armed forces show they aren’t interested or capable of supporting a domestic MIC, everything has to be delivered with 100% capability from day one otherwise perpetual testing and order delays

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 May 2023 06:26

Test pilots and the taste of danger
https://www.deccanherald.com/specials/t ... 22258.html
27 May 2023

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FxLWLESaIAE ... name=large --->

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Oct 2023 03:23

VIDEO: https://x.com/anthonyrozerio/status/170 ... 44835?s=20 ---> It can fly at a speed of 235 kmph, carry a payload of 3,150 kg, and do all this with ease - whether it’s in the sub-zero climes of Siachen or the hot dust bowls of Rajasthan. Watch my story on the making of the Light Utility Helicopter designed in India by @HALHQBLR.

basant · Post by **basant** » 06 Oct 2023 10:48

HAL working on LUH Mk2 that addresses IAF's ENHANCED requirements. It will include autopilot (specifically asked by IAF) and other minor changes. (IDRW)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Oct 2023 09:11

basant wrote: ↑06 Oct 2023 10:48 HAL working on LUH Mk2 that addresses IAF's ENHANCED requirements. It will include autopilot (specifically asked by IAF) and other minor changes. (IDRW)

The story claims the Indian Army wants the auto-pilot.

One question why was it not required earlier during the development program?

rrao · Post by **rrao** » 07 Oct 2023 11:09

sir, Already HAL developed AFCS for LCH indigenously couple of years ago. control law tweaking also done ,if i am not wrong on LCH. They have AHRS,GPS,Altimeter,AFCS,DGNS etc...only thing is they have to have autopilot computer, which AFCS dupe can do ..

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 07 Oct 2023 12:06

Sure, let the IA keep delaying the induction with moving targets, while Cheetah/Chetak copters continue to under-perform and crash

This after HAL manufactured LUH's with their own budget & without an order on hand

No concept of tranches and iterative improvement

basant · Post by **basant** » 07 Oct 2023 17:32

ramana wrote: ↑07 Oct 2023 09:11
basant wrote: ↑06 Oct 2023 10:48 HAL working on LUH Mk2 that addresses IAF's ENHANCED requirements. It will include autopilot (specifically asked by IAF) and other minor changes. (IDRW)
The story claims the Indian Army wants the auto-pilot.

One question why was it not required earlier during the development program?

Ramana garu, I don't know for sure and it looks a little complicated. First, there is Preliminary Joint SQR (PJSQR) that is mentioned for a basic helicopter. It is known that "PJSQR requirements for basic helicopter certification have been complied satisfactorily" in 2021. Then there is RFQ which requires AFCS. So, AFCS is likely an addon to the initial (PJ)SQR.

HAL developed indigenous AFCS and tested for the first time on LCH in 2020. So, they might be adapting it for LUH, though it might be only of limited utility for a 3 ton helo.

The impression I was under, and probably still true, is that IOC did not have AFCS but FOC (not Mk2) will have it. There were a few reports about the same a few years ago.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Oct 2023 19:19

Thanks guys!

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 23 Oct 2023 09:02

Army to start phasing out Cheetah, Chetak helicopters from 2027

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 2.ece/amp/

“The issue with the auto-pilot of the LUH has been addressed and the trials by the HAL have commenced. The six LSP LUH are expected to be delivered to the Army between December 2024 and June 2025. The bigger contract for LUH is expected to be concluded by January 2024 and deliveries expected to begin by 2026 onwards,”

Shubham · Post by **Shubham** » 23 Oct 2023 11:42

ramana wrote: ↑07 Oct 2023 09:11
The story claims the Indian Army wants the auto-pilot.

One question why was it not required earlier during the development program?

I will risk this reply even at the cost of being misunderstood.

Firstly, HAL likeness in descending order is IA, IAF and IN. Reason being IA orders are huge and IA is willing to get hold of any chopper platform that they can to expand their aviation group.

Secondly, comparison of LUH with other light heli are relevant but moot since LUH is a new and highly challenging design for HAL. There are many things HAL design group has to master. Improving flying and handling qualities is one such aspect. It is going to take some time. LUH should have been fielded without an autopilot but now apparently it is a must.

So, we can drop all conspiracy theories. I guess there is no other light bird except LUH coming in to forces.

Let hope afcs integration takes place quickly and in future we get a luh without afcs.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 08 Nov 2023 09:43

Replacing ageing Cheetah/Chetak choppers to take at least 10 yrs, hopes pinned on LUH & leasing
https://theprint.in/defence/replacing-a ... g/1836502/
08 Nov 2023

However, the helicopters, which Army sources said were better in terms of performance, compared to Cheetah/Chetak, and performed exceptionally well in high-altitude areas, were not fitted with autopilot. This feature, sources explained, is a must for these choppers to be able to fly in high-altitude zones like Siachen, owing to a change in the rotor system.

The LUH has now been fitted with the autopilot feature and is undergoing trials.

The plot thickens... it appears that the immediate autopilot need for the lsps emerged as a result of the modified tail rotor?

srin · Post by **srin** » 08 Nov 2023 10:38

Do Chetak or Cheetah have auto pilot?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 08 Nov 2023 11:42

srin wrote: ↑08 Nov 2023 10:38 Do Chetak or Cheetah have auto pilot?

Don't know.

But the post above yours does suggest that this requirement was a result of a increased torque produced by the revised tail rotor.

The tail rotor as originally designed for the machine was sufficient for low altitude flight. However, it was found to be deficient for high altitude operations.

Keeping in view the above, it is quite logical for the forces to demand an auto pilot in order to cope with a system that may be over powered in certain flight regimes.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 08 Nov 2023 17:46

So if they wanted, IA could have ordered and inducted LUH without the auto-pilot by specifying a operational ceiling, while the auto-pilot gets qualified! It could easily have been retrofitted.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 08 Nov 2023 18:23

JTull wrote: ↑08 Nov 2023 17:46 So if they wanted, IA could have ordered and inducted LUH without the auto-pilot by specifying a operational ceiling, while the auto-pilot gets qualified! It could easily have been retrofitted.

+108

Of the total sorties being carried out by Cheetah and Chetak, what percentage is in high-altitude areas? How about buying the current version of LUH for the squadrons deployed in the plains for now, while the autopilot version is being developed?

Is this not just common sense, or am I talking through my hat?

AkshaySG · Post by **AkshaySG** » 08 Nov 2023 18:25

Pratyush wrote: ↑08 Nov 2023 11:42
Keeping in view the above, it is quite logical for the forces to demand an auto pilot in order to cope with a system that may be over powered in certain flight regimes.

It is logical from a buyer's perspective but probably not the best way to go if they want to speed up the replacement of Cheetah/Chetak and induction of LUHs.

We could have ordered LUH in a first tranch/Block 1 configuration albeit with certain operational limitations, HAL would have guaranteed orders and could then work on an improved Block 2 with autopilot and other improvements.

The forces could then start training and building operating procedures in the meantime while supply chain issues and hiccups get ironed out.

bala · Post by **bala** » 27 Nov 2023 21:33

HAL's LUH Flying with newly integrated Automatic Flight Control System

On Nov 27, 2023, Air Marshal Ashutosh Dixit, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff, was given a demo and was satisfied.

Now awaiting the big contract order for LUH by Army and Airforce.

Indian Defence Analysis is claiming

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyKLTQFCE_M

Mollick.R · Post by **Mollick.R** » 28 Nov 2023 12:44

bala wrote: ↑27 Nov 2023 21:33 HAL's LUH Flying with newly integrated Automatic Flight Control System

Now I expect "some people" with decision taking power to come up with new set of requirements

1. Nuclear Fusion powered Heli Engine for LUH
2. Agni Launch Capacity from heli
3. Harry Potter type invisible cloak for stealth

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Nov 2023 12:46

Don't give them any ideas.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Nov 2023 20:34

bala wrote: ↑27 Nov 2023 21:33Indian Defence Analysis is claiming.

Correct News!

https://x.com/IAF_MCC/status/1729137103907475586?s=20 ---> Reaffirming the IAF's commitment to #Atmanirbharta, the DCAS Air Mshl Ashutosh Dixit flew in a HAL Light Utility Helicopter at Bengaluru today. He was given a hands on experience of the helicopter's flight performance with its newly integrated Automatic Flight Control System.

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1729105 ... 06536?s=20 ---> Air Marshal Ashutosh Dixit, DCAS, IAF flew indigenously designed & developed HAL Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) at Bengaluru for the first time. He expressed his satisfaction and said LUH is a nice flying machine and has great potential. @delhidefence

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Dec 2023 20:14

GREAT NEWS!!!

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1730 ... 67995?s=20 ---> Indian Navy confirms Utility Helicopter by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is *platform of choice* for future acquisition by the service.

https://x.com/VivekSi85847001/status/17 ... 88046?s=20 --->Indian Navy Chief confirms that deal to acquire 111 NUH Helicopters will be sourced locally from HAL. He said HAL Platforms will be the key choice for this. NUH acquisition cost is estimated $3 billion.

bala · Post by **bala** » 19 Dec 2023 20:08

Indian Defence Analysis YT

1st Prototype of Indian Navy's Utility Helicopter Maritime (UHM) by 2024

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Dec 2023 21:02

HAL Chetak and HAL Cheetahs to be replaced with LUH.

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1737728 ... 06555?s=20 ---> Good to see that there's no mention for Ka-226 as a replacement of IAF's Chetak/Cheetah fleet. All bets should be on LUH. And IMRH for Mi-17.