Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

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Pratyush
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Some nube questions.

Are these parts no longer available from OEM.

Or new parts are available but, are too expensive to acquire for the reminder of the service life.

The aircrafts in flying condition, can these be upgraded?
mody
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by mody »

The 8 flying aircrafts will be upgraded to our current standard and will be used to bring the 3rd squadron to full strength. The balance will be cannibalized for spares.
A good move none the less. Very cheap purchase. $27 million for 8 aircrafts plus spares, plus the cost of upgrades. Will be interesting to see if we go with the existing upgrade deal that costs almost $43 million per aircraft or some hybrid upgrade using some of our own systems and some from Dassault.
basant
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by basant »

$27 million is a gift, considering that the price of a single jet would be more than that. IIRC, that amount is about half the upgradation cost of a single jet! But seeing that it is from the French, I feel that this is related to additional Rafael purchases.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by sankum »

The sanctioned upgradation is for 51 nos Mirage 2000 but the fleet is 49 nos. 2 more from this second hand lot can be expected to be upgraded.
One upgraded crashed so that the total upgraded will be 50 nos. Plus may be 11 more second hand be used till the end of service life or used as spares.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

sankum-ji, 40 were inducted in the 1980s and 10 more in the early 2000s, for a total of 50 aircraft. At least 11 Mirage 2000s have crashed since induction in 1985. There are around 40 aircraft left, perhaps a bit less. This purchase is a big shot in the arm for the three Mirage 2000 squadrons.
sankum
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by sankum »

Rakeshji total induction in 1980s were 49 nos ( split between 40 initial plus 9 nos) and 10 Mirage 2000H secondhand were purchased in early 2000s to cover up for attrition loses for a total fleet of 59 nos of which 11 have crashed for a total fleet of 48 nos current. 13 nos flyable will make it 61 nos with 50 upgraded.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rupak »

Now they need to buy up the entire Qatari and UAE fleets so that they can have 3-4 new squadrons.
YashG
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by YashG »

Rupak wrote:Now they need to buy up the entire Qatari and UAE fleets so that they can have 3-4 new squadrons.
How likely is it, if the deal didnt go through earlier.
Cain Marko
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Rupak wrote:Now they need to buy up the entire Qatari and UAE fleets so that they can have 3-4 new squadrons.
At what cost? Esp the upgrade.That's the question. Remember the French just offered 36 shiny raffles for $5 billion.
Vivek K
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Vivek K »

Stay on target! Stay on target! Build Tejas MK2! Forget about buying used.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by yensoy »

YashG wrote:
Rupak wrote:Now they need to buy up the entire Qatari and UAE fleets so that they can have 3-4 new squadrons.
How likely is it, if the deal didnt go through earlier.
Now that there is a "market price" on the second-hand units, maybe the gulf militaries will be willing to make a realistic deal on their surplus. Also, by picking up the 24 units, we have soaked up all the spares. It may make it more difficult for Qatar/UAE to keep their fleets operational if we have all the spares :D
Vivek K wrote:Stay on target! Stay on target! Build Tejas MK2! Forget about buying used.
For a hundred reasons I will agree with you, but our appetite is so big we can do both. 30 million $ is pocket change. Each GE engine on Tejas is 7.5 million $.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by brar_w »

The UAE hasn’t finalized its F-35s yet, and hasn’t signed a contract for Rafale either. Until that happens it will be extremely unlikely that they would part with their M2Ks. Qatar could and the aircraft shouldn’t have seen a lot of hard use so those should be prime targets.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by viveks »

This is definitely a very good news.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by sohamn »

I thought they are buying all these aircraft to maintain a total of 51 UPG aircraft and using everything else as spares. I don't know if these aircrafts will ever fly, but rather will get cannibalized.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Atmavik »

sohamn wrote:I thought they are buying all these aircraft to maintain a total of 51 UPG aircraft and using everything else as spares. I don't know if these aircrafts will ever fly, but rather will get cannibalized.

8 can fly
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

As per the news report, 13 are intact, 8 are ready to fly after servicing and the remaining 11 will be used as Christmas trees.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

sankum wrote:Rakeshji total induction in 1980s were 49 nos ( split between 40 initial plus 9 nos) and 10 Mirage 2000H secondhand were purchased in early 2000s to cover up for attrition loses for a total fleet of 59 nos of which 11 have crashed for a total fleet of 48 nos current. 13 nos flyable will make it 61 nos with 50 upgraded.
I forgot the 9 ordered in the mid-80s, after the order of the first 40. You are correct. Oops! :)
Vivek K
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Vivek K »

So is the deal already done? Does it mean 13 additional aircraft? Can the 11 others be resurrected/refurbished? Certainly if these can be brought up to M2K upg standard, they add to the fleet strength and would be huge! No denying that!
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

I doubt there are any surmounting technical challenges in getting all 24 flying. Rather, the questions remains will it be cost effective? I guess it is better to strip the 11 for spares to keep the serviceability rate of the flying airframes high.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

sankum wrote:Rakeshji total induction in 1980s were 49 nos ( split between 40 initial plus 9 nos) and 10 Mirage 2000H secondhand were purchased in early 2000s to cover up for attrition loses for a total fleet of 59 nos of which 11 have crashed for a total fleet of 48 nos current. 13 nos flyable will make it 61 nos with 50 upgraded.
The batch of 10 in early 2000s was new not second hand, it was a stopgap measure after Kargil while ground work for 126 order was being prepared when the Tehelka shitstorm broke making a single vendor procurement into MMRCA contest, these were very convenient for the Pakis and the Chinese.
Karan M
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

Rakesh wrote:
sankum wrote:Rakeshji total induction in 1980s were 49 nos ( split between 40 initial plus 9 nos) and 10 Mirage 2000H secondhand were purchased in early 2000s to cover up for attrition loses for a total fleet of 59 nos of which 11 have crashed for a total fleet of 48 nos current. 13 nos flyable will make it 61 nos with 50 upgraded.
I forgot the 9 ordered in the mid-80s, after the order of the first 40. You are correct. Oops! :)
3 full squadrons at 18 airframes each including No9 Wolfpacks, plus seven in reserve. What's not to like.
We just need to add Mica compatibility. Mirage 2000 5Fs faced off against the Su-30 during exercises in France, and the Flankers though they were ahead, rated them highly.
The Mirage 2000 5-F added new cockpit displays, new mission computing plus the Mica capability to the RDI radar equipped C. We can then use them for air defense, and if a new HAL mission computer can be added in parallel to the existing MC on the digibus, new weapons too.
I hope MOD/IAF finalise the purchase of the additional MiG-29s and Su-30s quickly as well. Will add a significant combat boost to the IAF. That, and the Su-30 upgrade.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by LakshmanPST »

https://twitter.com/MaverickBharat/stat ... 11876?s=19
-'NONE' of the 24 Mirage-2000 , Indian Airforce is procuring will be used for Flying.

-Indian Airforce also procured 10 Mirage-2000 earlier for spares which reached Gwalior last year.
Not sure how much of this is true...

----
EDIT:- Looks like it is true... So, no increase in Mirage 2000 numbers...

Indian Air Force signs deal with French Air Force to purchase phased out Mirage aircraft
https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... ssion=true

Also this quote in the article--->
Earlier also, India had signed a contract with French companies for supplying old Mirages which reached Gwalior last year and have helped in significantly improving operational availability, the sources said.
Karan M
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

Two contradictory reports. Lets wait and see. Shishir Gupta is pretty reliable in his reportage.
sankum
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by sankum »

These aircraft are bound to be used as spares. Only 2 nos will be upgraded to Mirage 2000 I standard for a fleet of 50.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Vips »

brar_w wrote:The UAE hasn’t finalized its F-35s yet, and hasn’t signed a contract for Rafale either. Until that happens it will be extremely unlikely that they would part with their M2Ks. Qatar could and the aircraft shouldn’t have seen a lot of hard use so those should be prime targets.
Pakistan is interested in getting the M2K from Qatar. Qatar may be open to doing it if Pukes can come up with the cash and if France does not object to it.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Vips »

Rupak wrote:Now they need to buy up the entire Qatari and UAE fleets so that they can have 3-4 new squadrons.
You are forgetting the Taiwanese M2K fleet.
Vivek K
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Vivek K »

Vips wrote:Pakistan is interested in getting the M2K from Qatar. Qatar may be open to doing it if Pukes can come up with the cash and if France does not object to it.
PAF would need tons of money for the Qatari Mirages - and then what standard would they be at? With their current spat with France, it doesn't make sense to buy more French hardware for them.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by jamwal »

Pakistan has ancient Mirage III and Vs which are good only for ground attack roles. They have created infrastructure for their maintenance and repair in-house.

Mirage 2000 is a very different bird and will need lot of new investments in addition to airframe cost.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by sohamn »

Atmavik wrote:
sohamn wrote:I thought they are buying all these aircraft to maintain a total of 51 UPG aircraft and using everything else as spares. I don't know if these aircrafts will ever fly, but rather will get cannibalized.

8 can fly
8 can fly but none will fly. All are for spares.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by fanne »

Says who?
Karan M
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

jamwal wrote:Pakistan has ancient Mirage III and Vs which are good only for ground attack roles. They have created infrastructure for their maintenance and repair in-house.

Mirage 2000 is a very different bird and will need lot of new investments in addition to airframe cost.
FYI, HAL maintains and repairs IAF Mirage 2000's in-house.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

sankum wrote:These aircraft are bound to be used as spares. Only 2 nos will be upgraded to Mirage 2000 I standard for a fleet of 50.
If several are in decent condition, why only upgrade a couple. Having 3 full strength squadrons will be a net positive for the IAF.
sankum
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by sankum »

Sir, for $43m per Mirage 2000 upgrade cost they can buy a Tejas mk1a with 45 year life.
basant
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by basant »

Mount your horses, BRFites!
Not to wry if everything goes as planned soon a lot of enthusiasts ll b able to spin some mean machines with a thunderous roar. Not to mention break sound barrier or see grd rushing behind at 300 m/s in ftrs. Also do loops,barrel rolls & inverted flt in fully aerobatic trainer ac

5:47 PM · Sep 20, 2021
Source: Akash Jaiswal @akashpilot
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Srutayus »

Janes uvacha:
he Indian Air Force (IAF) is fast-tracking its EUR27 million (USD31.78 million) plan to purchase 24 second-hand Dassault Mirage 2000 fighters from France in a bid to boost its declining combat squadrons.

Thirteen of the 24 aircraft are in “completed condition”, needing only “servicing and basic maintenance” before becoming fully operational for squadron service, official sources told Janes
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... rage-2000s
Karan M
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

sankum wrote:Sir, for $43m per Mirage 2000 upgrade cost they can buy a Tejas mk1a with 45 year life.
So think differently, why would you not keep them as they are? They'll come with good enough radar and EW fit - at best upgrade them to fire the Mica and add the new SDR, a new IFF, and a new mission computer for additional weapons. The spares of course will be different from the rest of the fleet, but we can strike a deal with the French for those, and plus there are the 11 additional airframes. If you are strapped for budget, you can still use these airframes with limited mods. A RDI equipped Mirage 2000C with a basic FAF standard RDI radar/RWR/SPJ fit plus the mods above will still be quite useful in the AD role. We are even flying Bisons!
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ArjunPandit »

sankum wrote:Sir, for $43m per Mirage 2000 upgrade cost they can buy a Tejas mk1a with 45 year life.
true only if you can get it by end of this week. War is not very far. IAF needs plans asap. More power to tejas but these deals are good with existing bird types..
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by sohamn »

Srutayus wrote:Janes uvacha:
he Indian Air Force (IAF) is fast-tracking its EUR27 million (USD31.78 million) plan to purchase 24 second-hand Dassault Mirage 2000 fighters from France in a bid to boost its declining combat squadrons.

Thirteen of the 24 aircraft are in “completed condition”, needing only “servicing and basic maintenance” before becoming fully operational for squadron service, official sources told Janes
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... rage-2000s

Janes got it wrong according to Desi Journos, none of these aircraft will fly.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 316155.cms

https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/ ... e-air.html

https://www.republicworld.com/india-new ... craft.html

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 315197.cms

https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india/ ... ase-734750

https://www.opindia.com/2021/09/indian- ... om-france/

https://twitter.com/ind_military_fp/sta ... 9231385611

https://twitter.com/DefenceForge/status ... 8055776260

https://twitter.com/RaghuramanMenon/sta ... 4177349632
ArjunPandit
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ArjunPandit »

all in all this saga is again a less to have our own plane that can be managed and maintained as per our own needs...hope these are the last set of birds we buy adn get done with the madness of MMRCA: Monkey madness repeatedly comes again
fanne
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by fanne »

i am totally confused -
I searched the 4 vedas and the Indian constitution and French one, along with musing from judiciary - None are forbidding flying the second hand Mirages. So what could be the reasons (if the news are true)
1. These planes are really not in flyable condition or near EOL so too risky
2. Airforce is Sati Savitri types - they dont fly second hand, only plan A that is rafale
3. France is selling at 1 Euro (rest I speculate is transportation cost as these delicate birds have to transported with care) and the condition is you cannot fly them, use for spare else pay us 43 million Euros for each bird.

My vote is that news is wrong and we can fly them, but if we cannot fly them reason can be 2 or 3.
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