Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

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nachiket
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by nachiket »

Why would it lead to distrust? I'm happy he's getting a first hand view of the systems. Might help change his mind perhaps.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by VinodTK »

nachiket wrote:Why would it lead to distrust? I'm happy he's getting a first hand view of the systems. Might help change his mind perhaps.
I doubt it.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by suryag »

LCH is a beauty !!!
Anujan
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Anujan »

suryag wrote:LCH is a beauty !!!
Cross posting, it looks great in green as well

Image

from IN twitter account
@IN_Eastern Naval Command
@INEasternNaval1
The CinC was briefed on the Naval LCA programme & progress made on the design & development of Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter #TEDBF at ADA, the indigenous helicopter design development, production & repair/ overhaul activities being undertaken by HAL (2/3)
#AtmaNirbharBharat
https://twitter.com/INEasternNaval1/sta ... 7791275008
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by KSingh »

nachiket wrote:Why would it lead to distrust? I'm happy he's getting a first hand view of the systems. Might help change his mind perhaps.
Because it is disingenuous and highly cynical. He wasn’t doing these IDDM tours before his recent debacle/admission. He’s doing so purely for PR

We have all seen his intentions and focus, these highly orchestrated events designed to quieten the most superficial criticism shows how stupid they think the average commentator is. A few joyrides and we expect his mind had been changed? How many of the 201 LCA MK.2 projected 4 years ago will he commit to now?

I’m even more suspicious of his and his force’s motivations now after seeing they have felt the need to engage in this circus, their desire to pull the wool over the eyes of taxpayers and civilian leadership alike is clear.
Last edited by hnair on 06 Aug 2022 05:34, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Warning issued. Critique of specific actions ok, no running campaigns against IAF or its current chief. Use your social media profile for those
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by hnair »

KSingh, context based criticism is ok but use your social media profile for shaking perpetually in anger at forces and chief, not this forum. And do not link such angry-tweets of yours’ here as a creative workaround.

Warning issued
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by KSingh »

<Poof>
Admin note: Clearly mentioned the reason in the warning itself, you are running a concerted campaign against a chief and a service. And you are continuing by making claims of “failing institutions”. This forum does not encourage that and if you have further feedback, use the forum feedback threads. No more here.
Last edited by hnair on 07 Aug 2022 05:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ShauryaT »

IAF will finally get a strategic bomber
The Indian Air Force seems to be getting over the strategic hump, perhaps with a little push from the PMO, and will soon acquire the advanced and upgraded version of the Tu-160 Blackjack called the ‘White Swan’. This transaction, after the S-400 and help in hypersonic weapons technology, confirms Russia’s status as the sole supplier to India of prime military technologies (even if for a hefty price!).

This was disclosed in a throwaway line about a “bomber” being acquired by IAF, which was preceded by a generous acknowledgement — “Mr Bharat Karnad will be happy to know”, by the former CAS, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha. He was delivering the keynote speech yesterday at the first edition of the ‘Chanakya Dialogues’ hosted by the Chanakya Foundation in New Delhi. On further questioning by me, he confirmed that the aircraft in question was the Tu-160.
:) 8)
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by kit »

Imagine a blackjack carrying 12 NG Brahmos 8)
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by sanjaykumar »

But… but…. won’t this upset the balance with Pakistan? :rotfl:
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by prashantsharma »

Highly unlikely. RuAF barely has a dozen and a half for itself and it takes them years to build a new airframe.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Haridas »

6 pieces of TU-160 is just 1 flight (not even a unit, much less a squadron) even if availabelity is a super 70%.

Who will ever be shit scared of such token toys ?

After 5 years risk of been hanger queen, at best airshow king.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

Maybe the tupolev's are being invited to participate in the MRFA contest!!!

Afterall the swing wing makes it very multi role...

It can fly with wings swept back or fly with wings unswept or fly with wings in between. Truly multi-role!!!!
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Alternatively a clean sheet design powered by 4 dry Kaveri engine's with a flying wing configuration capable of carrying 9 tons with an un refuled combat radius of 3000 kms.

Service entry date 2035 if a start is made now.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by kit »

Hmm, so is the IAF comfortable with less.than 42 squadrons in 10 to 15 years as the projections for retiring jags,bisons, fulcrum and the mirages come to.??.. if not why are they not asking for more tejas now ?, or is the plan to order more later.? ..If the IAF is preparing for a 2/3 front war, are the force levels projected adequate, keeping in mind PLAAF in 10 years would be exponentially bigger ??..
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by kit »

Haridas wrote:6 pieces of TU-160 is just 1 flight (not even a unit, much less a squadron) even if availabelity is a super 70%.

Who will ever be shit scared of such token toys ?

After 5 years risk of been hanger queen, at best airshow king.
Don't think the bombers fly alone for any mission :D .. they would be escorted by fighters most likely Rafales and Su s. And have AWACS /satellite comm support to fly "blind"... they are "just" bomb trucks.
Similar analogy to an aircraft carrier group with its escorts.

Overwhelming firepower delivered in a single mission.

The other side should be scared indeed. Imagine the fire power layout for a couple of blackjacks and a squadron of su s escorted by Rafales. If that is not scary what is ?

I think the swans are back in production and old ones being upgraded , so along as RuAF is using the versions it may not be difficult to get support and maintenance?

Of course you would know better , Arun. Let's see your argument
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

Kit

Then they will say MRFA is needed to provide escort to the blackjacks!!!

Maybe that is why MEFA is needed!!!

The plan was to get a few Of these - perhaps one for each numberplated squadron!!!
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by kit »

If it comes to.that GOI probably is going to have to look through why IAF is.not keen on atmanirbhar :(( , aren't service chiefs emboldened to understand GOI guidelines and vouch for it in their staff requirements/acquisitions? If not how. Are they going to fight a war ? ..
Don't know if any other country experiences similar schism between service and government reg procurement!!
we do need a white paper for procurement to provide guidance ? I do suppose it is there
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

I was speaking in jest!!!
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... NVCfY9mzCw ---> "We need a bomber squadron…especially for the air vector of the Strategic Forces Command (SFC)," says former ⁦IAF⁩ Chief ACM Arup Raha on the dwindling fighter squadron assets, at the Chanakya Dialogues.

Image
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/somnath1978/status/ ... NVCfY9mzCw ---> If this is true, India must be enormously sanguine about CAATSA. Given the near US monopoly in India's advance warning sensors (Phalcon, P-8I, radar satellites, JSTAR soon), to have a leased Tu-160 hooked on to them.

https://twitter.com/somnath1978/status/ ... NVCfY9mzCw ---> The hypersonic glide missile is Brahmos 2 = Zircon painted in Indian colours with some software tweaks done in India. So integration with Tu-160 is a done deal.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:Alternatively a clean sheet design powered by 4 dry Kaveri engine's with a flying wing configuration capable of carrying 9 tons with an un refuled combat radius of 3000 kms.

Service entry date 2035 if a start is made now.
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/155 ... NVCfY9mzCw ---> Tu-160s are an interim solution & will be used for standoff cruise missile attacks while primarily being seen as a nuclear delivery asset. Once India's economy is a lot bigger, say by the 2030s, a penetrating strategic bomber must be developed. Initial work can begin now.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Prasad »

Rakesh wrote:
https://twitter.com/somnath1978/status/ ... NVCfY9mzCw ---> If this is true, India must be enormously sanguine about CAATSA. Given the near US monopoly in India's advance warning sensors (Phalcon, P-8I, radar satellites, JSTAR soon), to have a leased Tu-160 hooked on to them.

https://twitter.com/somnath1978/status/ ... NVCfY9mzCw ---> The hypersonic glide missile is Brahmos 2 = Zircon painted in Indian colours with some software tweaks done in India. So integration with Tu-160 is a done deal.
Zircon is a scramjet powered cruise missile. HGV is an entirely different thing :roll:
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... NVCfY9mzCw ---> I don’t see merit in this thought. Better to focus on getting that offensive - defensive edge beefed to the desired level with sufficient fighter sqns ASAP. Incidentally, without this umbrella, no SFC non-stealthy air vector will be able act with impunity in contested airspace.

https://twitter.com/KesariDhwaj/status/ ... NVCfY9mzCw ---> Agree on fighter squadron numbers but I look at long range bombers as versatile ALCM platforms. Based in central India, once airborne, the same aircraft can launch ALCM in any direction. Higher element of survivability & surprise as compared to ground based unit (which can't be everywhere).
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote:
https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... NVCfY9mzCw ---> I don’t see merit in this thought. Better to focus on getting that offensive - defensive edge beefed to the desired level with sufficient fighter sqns ASAP. Incidentally, without this umbrella, no SFC non-stealthy air vector will be able act with impunity in contested airspace.
https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... NVCfY9mzCw ---> Agree completely. Bharat Karnad says 6 Tu-160s are to be leased. How exactly would we defend them over contested airspace? Fighter squadrons do matter more as do EW, AEW&CS, IFR.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... NVCfY9mzCw ---> Only way I think this makes sense is if they carry outsized loads and fire them from within Indian airspace. Even there, better ways to achieve the same purpose. Hypersonic Glide Vehicles (HGVs) could be put on BMs for instance. Confusing reportage to be honest.

https://twitter.com/vsiddh1968/status/1 ... NVCfY9mzCw ---> We are barely able to procure spares for existing aircraft. Took RM Parriker to get involved and improve availability. Bombers will be hanger queens.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... NVCfY9mzCw ---> I am not sure if this is a short term goal we can afford. With the Russia Ukraine conflict going on, as you imply, its not easy to get anything like even the MiGs, Flankers from there. They'll prioritize their own fleet first. Karnad's 6 Blackjacks appear unattainable for now.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote:
https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... NVCfY9mzCw ---> I don’t see merit in this thought. Better to focus on getting that offensive - defensive edge beefed to the desired level with sufficient fighter sqns ASAP. Incidentally, without this umbrella, no SFC non-stealthy air vector will be able act with impunity in contested airspace.
https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... NVCfY9mzCw ---> Sir another angle. Looking at IOR - aircraft taking off from Rajali with 12 Nirbhay or Brahmos is like complete No 222 Tigersharks Squadron operating out of Thanjavur.

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... NVCfY9mzCw ---> Looks good on paper, in reality IAF is a supportive vector for operation in/via the IOR (Indian Ocean Region). The navy will soon have enough surface/subsurface strike capability in place, which is on their roadmap. By the same logic, a couple of IN destroyers can shoot off a bomber squadron worth of missiles, better ROI.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by hnair »

This is an oddball trial balloon by Karnad-saar

Merits:

- can fly towards harm’s way and launch long range missiles before reaching harm.

- Extends legs of bombing runs on logistics bases deep inside China. In a war that will see limited fighting during winter months, choking their supplies during inclement weather at source is an attractive option. PLA would need to spend a lot money on AD to fortify such logistics points

- For maritime strike, bomber can come back to base and reload faster than a destroyer that has shot its full magazine and need to chug back to port over a few days. Makes sense against a numbers based fleet-in-being situation like against PLAN

Demerits
- Single mission. can’t be used for any other missions in an airforce starved of airframes facing war time attrition. You can’t throw a valuable heavy bomber into CAP or in the mountains CAS
- Russian maal. As Haridas pointed out, uptime will be a pain. Even khan’s bomber fleet has big issues over keeping these in the air
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by srin »

If the bomber's supposed role is to launch standoff or long range missiles, why go for Tu-160s when you can go for customized civilian aircraft which have much better spares availability ?

I'd posted this before, but this is the kind of firepower that takes my fancy: 72 Tomahawks on a single 747 !!
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

hnair wrote:This is an oddball trial balloon by Karnad-saar
Karnad is an odd-ball himself. But nice post. Good points raised.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Baba Banaras is back at it :lol:

And the numbers keep going up. From 5 to 6 and now 8. And the delivery times are not even realistic IMVHO.

https://twitter.com/RealBababanaras/sta ... NVCfY9mzCw ----> Deal between India & Russia is almost final to buy 8 \Tu-160s - a supersonic, variable-sweep, wing heavy strategic bomber for the Indian Air Force - in which 2 are to be delivered by end of 2022 and the rest 6 to be delivered before July 2023. (Sources) :lol:

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Prasad »

If you want to hit Tibet-based nodes, why does it need to be air-launched at all? Ground based Nirbhay launchers are good enough. If IOR, why shoot cruise missiles at a flotilla instead of launching BMs from land, cruise missiles from existing sub/surface fleet? Magazine depth & response-time are the only negatives I see and even those can be mitigated to some extent offset by the savings on buying and maintaining a dedicated bomber fleet.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Haridas »

kit wrote:
Haridas wrote:6 pieces of TU-160 is just 1 flight (not even a unit, much less a squadron) even if availabelity is a super 70%.

Who will ever be shit scared of such token toys ?

After 5 years risk of been hanger queen, at best airshow king.
Don't think the bombers fly alone for any mission :D .. they would be escorted by fighters most likely Rafales and Su s. And have AWACS /satellite comm support to fly "blind"... they are "just" bomb trucks.
Similar analogy to an aircraft carrier group with its escorts.

Overwhelming firepower delivered in a single mission.

The other side should be scared indeed. Imagine the fire power layout for a couple of blackjacks and a squadron of su s escorted by Rafales. If that is not scary what is ?

I think the swans are back in production and old ones being upgraded , so along as RuAF is using the versions it may not be difficult to get support and maintenance?

Of course you would know better , Arun. Let's see your argument
Prey tell how Rafale and SU30 have GROWN long legs to escort TU160? Ungrounded imagination.

The only way Rafale or Su30 can escort the TU after 5 years is escort hanger queen in the hanger. :twisted: waiting for servicing & parts...

A flight of TU160 in even partially contested space is still a good target practice, not shitting experience to enemy. AD of today is nothing like what it was 15 yrs ago.

Eventually hanger queen doesn't scare even telibunnies.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ldev »

Haridas wrote: A flight of TU160 in even partially contested space is still a good target practice, not shitting experience to enemy. AD of today is nothing like what it was 15 yrs ago.

Eventually hanger queen doesn't scare even telibunnies.
:rotfl: Very true!! The Russians do not even dare to send the TU-160 over Ukraine, it fires off it's cruise missiles from well within Russian airspace. With an rcs of probably 100m^2, it will be the easiest aircraft for AD to target. Not to mention that it has no defensive aids at all. And hangar queen is the right phrase for the maintenance issues it has/will have. It is incredible that such a crackpot idea is being debated on the internet/twitter.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Haridas wrote:Prey tell how Rafale and SU30 have GROWN long legs to escort TU160? Ungrounded imagination.

The only way Rafale or Su30 can escort the TU after 5 years is escort hanger queen in the hanger. :twisted: waiting for servicing & parts...

A flight of TU160 in even partially contested space is still a good target practice, not shitting experience to enemy. AD of today is nothing like what it was 15 yrs ago.

Eventually hanger queen doesn't scare even telibunnies.
When I first read this on BRF, I honestly thought this was another one of Bharat Karnad's crazy fantasies. And he is known for spinning yarns and coming up with suggestions for asinine acquisitions.

But this has "reportedly" come in from none other than Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha (retd) - former Chief of Air Staff, Indian Air Force. So then, that begs the question why has this news come out in the public now? Prior to the current Air Chief, you had Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria and prior to him was Air Chief Marshal Birender Singh Dhanoa. His predecessor was Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha.

So was such a discussion being undertaken during Raha Sir's tenure from 31 Dec 2013 to 31 Dec 2016? And that the acquisition might finally be coming to fruition soon? If not, then is this discussion being undertaken at Air HQ now? And if so, why?

Couple of (my own assumptions) theories to that --->

1) The MRCBF contest is nearing completion. All indications to date suggest a win for Boeing. That is at least my perception. That will cause takleef at Air HQ, which is hoping for a Rafale win as that will increase their own chances of getting additional Rafales for the IAF.

2) The Tu-160 is another S-400 esque CAATSA trigger. Acquiring the Tu-160 will rankle a number of US Congressmen and Senators. After the US House just cleared a CAATSA waiver for India, acquiring the Tu-160 will be the straw that broke the camel's back. Apply CAATSA on India and any dream of F-18SHs will go right out the window. Even talk of such an acquisition will bring out the sword. So let us see if the GOTUS responds to an official news report that the GOI is seriously considering acquiring the Tu-160 for the IAF.

3) There are far better options available to the IAF, other than possibly acquiring the Tu-160. Even Air HQ is aware of this. Even they know that it will be a hangar queen and a huge target. What would be the point of the Tu-160 when the Su-30MKI will be able to do a similar task, albeit with a significantly smaller payload. The counter to that would be to have a number of Rambhas up in the air to mimic one Tu-160.

We are likely witnessing inter service rivalries at play here. I don't believe the Tu-160 will be acquired by the IAF, but serious discussions will be held with Russia over this. How much will India needle the US for them to pull the CAATSA trigger? And Raha Sir is perfect to leak out such info to gauge international (i.e. West) reaction. Former Air Chief, but private citizen. Free speech, so plausible deniability by the GOI. If ignored by the West, then move up the escalatory ladder.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

I am not sure how the discussion has reached this stage. The demand was for the acquisition of strategic bombers.

I don't believe that the former ACM Raha was saying that the acquisition of the strategic bombers is a done deal.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:I am not sure how the discussion has reached this stage. The demand was for the acquisition of strategic bombers.

I don't believe that the former ACM Raha was saying that the acquisition of the strategic bombers is a done deal.
Which strategic bomber is out there, that India can realistically acquire? Bring out the list :)
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Don't believe that any one is available for sale.

Which is why my first post on this particular topic was for an indigenous design utilising 4 dry Kaveri engines and an un refueled combat range of 3000 kms and a payload of 9 tons.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:Don't believe that any one is available for sale.

Which is why my first post on this particular topic was for an indigenous design utilising 4 dry Kaveri engines and an un refueled combat range of 3000 kms and a payload of 9 tons.
There are only three countries that have (or are making) strategic bombers in their air fleet;

1) United States with the B1 Lancer, the B2 Spirit and the upcoming B-21 Raider.
2) Russia with the Tu-22, the Tu-160 and the in development Tupolev PAK DA.
3) China with the Xian H-6 and the in development Xian H-20.

If there are others, please add to the list. Of these three countries who is most likely to sell/lease such strategic bombers to India? That does not mean that this news is true, but if India is looking at such a capability in the near future, it will be Russia.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by NRao »

Last edited by Rakesh on 08 Aug 2022 23:50, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Post Edited
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by kit »

This talk is almost exactly going like the aircraft carrier argument :lol: , let's see if you have long range ASMs why can't the Tu launch them from inside Indian territory ?... Base them in the ANC the whole of IOR is within reach, I don't think anyone is suggesting targeting Beijing with the TU well inside Chinese airspace ?! :mrgreen:

Let's just assume, forget the blackjack, what can a dedicated Indian bomber be useful for ?, it was not far off when forumites were worried about the Chinese bombers slinging large payloads towards India !
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