Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

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Kartik
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Kartik »

Prasad wrote:Indonesia was a partner in the Korean fighter program initially.
It still is. There are differences regarding how to pay what Indonesia owes, but they may settle it with some sort of trade where South Korea buys some CN-235s from Indonesia in return for the 50 KF-21s that Indonesia needs to buy.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/14 ... 84000?s=20 ---> Welcome to Mirage Monday! Kicking off this week with an infographic that offers a view at Mirage 2000H "Vajra" sporting some "jugaad" that focuses on enhancing the capabilities of the French battle machine by adding potent Russian and Israeli systems.

Image

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/14 ... 97922?s=20 ---> Additional post for Mirage Monday: Indian Air Force Mirage 2000I "Vajra" UPG with it's primary offensive and defensive battle systems onboard.

* DASH mention is for fact purpose only, the Gueneau T458 is there in the frame.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... 91748?s=20 ---> The DARE-BEL, EW Suite for MiG-29UPG. Active Phased Array steering with narrow beams pinpoint threat jamming : 6-18 GHz, DFRM based jam 2 in 1 Warning, Jamming Radar Warning: 1 18 GHz; DR based Wide Band Receiver. Narrow Band Receiver options. Courtesy: Firestarter-DFI.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 57504?s=20 ---> Massive air power exercise to be held by IAF next month in Rajasthan. Will focus on LFE, DCA, OCA, SEAD, TacR, CAS, AirI, SWS etc. More than 10,000 combat training sorties expected to be launched.

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 90049?s=20 ---> Will focus on a two front war with quick theater switching.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/statu ... 61088?s=20 ---> Jaguar Darin-3 Mission Computer.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by rohitvats »

Good morning!

Details of S-400 System and its AD cover.

- Details of key components like surveillance and fire-control radars, TELs, support vehicles etc. which constitute S-400 Air Defense Missile System.
- Configuration of a typical S-400 missile regiment.
- Likely configuration of S-400 squadron in IAF service.
- Hypothetical scenario of deployment of 2 x S-400 squadrons on India's western border, and the type of air defense cover provided by them.

- Coverage provided by hypothetical deployment of 2 x S-400 Squadrons. One squadron is in the general area of Jalandhar, and other Squadron is close to Bikaner. The image shows primary (91N6E 'Big Bird') and secondary (96L6E 'Cheese Board') radar cover, and range of 40N6E(400-km), 48N6E3(250km), and 9M96E2 (120-km) range missiles.

Image

Complete video with details of the system and coverage:


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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Another S-400 piece, this time by Mihir Shah.

Read the sub-heading part, titled "One Part of a Whole" carefully. That is the best part of this well written piece.

A Definitive Decoding Of India’s S-400 ‘Triumf’
https://www.livefistdefence.com/demysti ... 00-triumf/
07 Jan 2022
ldev
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ldev »

rohitvats wrote:Good morning!

Details of S-400 System and its AD cover.

- Details of key components like surveillance and fire-control radars, TELs, support vehicles etc. which constitute S-400 Air Defense Missile System.
- Configuration of a typical S-400 missile regiment.
- Likely configuration of S-400 squadron in IAF service.
- Hypothetical scenario of deployment of 2 x S-400 squadrons on India's western border, and the type of air defense cover provided by them.

- Coverage provided by hypothetical deployment of 2 x S-400 Squadrons. One squadron is in the general area of Jalandhar, and other Squadron is close to Bikaner. The image shows primary (91N6E 'Big Bird') and secondary (96L6E 'Cheese Board') radar cover, and range of 40N6E(400-km), 48N6E3(250km), and 9M96E2 (120-km) range missiles.
The presumption in this scenario is that the earth is flat, which it is not. Ground based radars have over the horizon limitations on how far they can see which in turn depends on the height at which the target is flying. At a distance of 600 km and assuming that the S-400 radar mast is located 20 feet above the ground, the target aircraft will appear on the horizon, as seen from the radar location, if it flying at an altitude of 75,000 to 80,000 feet.

Since your scenario is looking at the Pakistan border, clearly the PAF will adjust it's tactics to take into account the S-400 and will not risk high flying jinks :)

They could start looking at low level tactics, flying 500 feet above the ground e.g. how successful they will be remains to be seen. At which level the S-400 acquisition range will be about 60 km.

Also, I doubt that the IAF will risk putting the S-400 in Jalandhar, it's far too close to the border and will be vulnerable to a AGM missile fired from a very low level i.e. the range of the AGM will not be degraded beyond the range to the S-400 target. I would guess that it's Ambala, because it is ~200 kms from the border and is beyond the range of any AGM specially those launched from low levels.

Added later: What the S-400 deployment will do though is force the PAF AEWCs, which need to fly at altitude, to fly much farther away from the border and deny the PAF that battlefield surveillance.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

rohitvats wrote:Good morning!...
Excellent work Rohit. A little feedback... You may want to soften or eliminate the background music and increase the volume of your voice.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Deans »

ldev wrote:....
Not many people realise that the range of ground (or ship) based radar is limited by the curvature of the earth. The S-400 will work best in conjunction with AEW aircraft and a Akash or a QR-SAM battery to prevent the S-400 being swamped by low level attacks. The IAF base at Halwara with its own air defences, may be a better location for the S-400 than Jalandhar. I think Leh and Tezpur are logical choices for the next batteries.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Mihir »

Rakesh wrote:Another S-400 piece, this time by Mihir Shah.

Read the sub-heading part, titled "One Part of a Whole" carefully. That is the best part of this well written piece.

A Definitive Decoding Of India’s S-400 ‘Triumf’
https://www.livefistdefence.com/demysti ... 00-triumf/
07 Jan 2022
Thanks, Rakesh saar! :)
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by rohitvats »

ldev wrote: The presumption in this scenario is that the earth is flat, which it is not. Ground based radars have over the horizon limitations on how far they can see which in turn depends on the height at which the target is flying. At a distance of 600 km and assuming that the S-400 radar mast is located 20 feet above the ground, the target aircraft will appear on the horizon, as seen from the radar location, if it flying at an altitude of 75,000 to 80,000 feet.
Valid point.

The illustration is representative in nature.

Coming to the range part -

1. Major part/belt of Pakistan which has their main and satellite air-bases is ~250 km from the border.

2. Using an online range calculator, I get the following ranges for different altitudes:
- 300+km for 20,000 feet
- 250+km for 15,000 feet
- 200+km for 10,000 feet
- 150+ km for 5,000 feet

3. The main surveillance radar of S-400 (which I've assumed is 100km inside from IB), does not require the full 600km range to detect air activity within Pakistan airspace.

4. Further, S-400 surveillance radar is part of the whole. There will be other surveillance radars, AWACS, AEW&C, some located much closer to the border, and other optimized for detecting low-level flying, and low RCS threats, which will feed into IACCS. And S-400 will receive feed from them. Remember, we detected the PAF package the moment they took-off from their bases on 27th February, 2020?
Since your scenario is looking at the Pakistan border, clearly the PAF will adjust it's tactics to take into account the S-400 and will not risk high flying jinks :)
PAF is being forced to change tactics, and adjust to a new threat w/o a single missile being fired from our side itself shows the potential, and worth of the system.
They could start looking at low level tactics, flying 500 feet above the ground e.g. how successful they will be remains to be seen. At which level the S-400 acquisition range will be about 60 km.
Again, S-400 is not a stand-alone system. IAF has radars located up-front, and those dedicated to track low flying targets. I mean, we have a category which is named as Low-Level, Light Weight, Transportable Radar (LLTR)! And mind you, these are mobile radars which are especially deployed to fill gaps, and keep vigil over possible routes of ingress by enemy fighters.

This is ST-68U 'Tin Shield' radar from a Transportable Radar Unit (TRU) of the IAF. It is an old, but an excellent radar especially against low flying, and low RCS targets.

Image

And now we're getting these modern GS-100 LLTR from Thales:

Image

To be supplemented by DRDO's very own LLTR:

Image

Between the imported and own product, we're getting 67 LLTR.
Also, I doubt that the IAF will risk putting the S-400 in Jalandhar, it's far too close to the border and will be vulnerable to a AGM missile fired from a very low level i.e. the range of the AGM will not be degraded beyond the range to the S-400 target. I would guess that it's Ambala, because it is ~200 kms from the border and is beyond the range of any AGM specially those launched from low levels.
Which PAF AGM has 100+ km range?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ldev »

rohitvats wrote:
Which PAF AGM has 100+ km range?
PAF will use it's anti radiation missiles against the S-400 radar emissions. PAF has got the MAR-1 from Brazil and the CM-102 from China, both of which have a range of 50 km to 100 km. The high and low ranges will depend on the altitude at which the missiles are launched. Also the J-10C can use the YJ-91 anti radiation missile which is a Chinese development of the Russian KH-31P with a Chinese seeker. That missile has a HIGH LOW trajectory range of 120 km and LO LO range of 50 km. It will come down to tactics. I am sure that the S-400 like the Patriot e.g. has decoy radars to spoof ARMs but a swarm attack could overwhelm it. Therefore the prudent course of action is to deploy the system such that ARMs even if launched from high altitude do not have the range to target i.e. something more than 120 km for the present range of ARMs which Pakistan possesses. One should also assume, given China's not so secret effort/intention to box India in that any Chinese development of ARMs and other AGMs will be made available to Pakistan, just like the J-10C has been made available e.g. the J-16 has been seen recently with a new, as yet un-named missile which is suspected to be a new anti radiation missile for the PLAAF, probably with a longer range and a multi mode seeker. It is not inconceivable that it will eventually find it's way to the PAF. At the end of the day each S-400 system is > $ 1 billion, a very tempting target to go after for the PAF, well worth for them to take the risk of losing 4 or 5 relatively low cost JF-17s which can carry both the MAR-1 as well as the CM-102 to launch a mass attack by popping up to the relevant altitude and launching missiles. Also I am sure that the IAF would have factored in that China also has the S-400 and will have simulated offensive action against it using their own anti radiation missiles.

Thanks for the rest of your reponse.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Roop »

ldev wrote:PAF will use it's anti radiation missiles against the S-400 radar emissions.
But why do you assume that India would meekly and passively allow PAF warplanes to approach even within 100km of the border in times of war or high political tension, never mind 100km from the S-400?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Mihir wrote:Thanks, Rakesh saar! :)
The thanks goes to you!

Many articles - with the exception of yours and Rohit's - view the S-400 as a stand alone, magic bullet system.

Your sub-heading - One Part of a Whole - demystifies that belief. A humble suggestion from this mango abdul ---> perhaps - at some future date - you can write a follow up article or write a new piece on the Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS) and in turn the AFNet.

Your article has a link to IACCS ( https://forceindia.net/cover-story/bigger-impact/ ), but an article from you would be a nice foundation to your S-400 article. We need folks like yourself to publish & write articles like this. Helps the aam junta. More power to you.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by hnair »

The S400 does the following to PAF:

- Make AWACS and Elint aircraft vulnerable, since these has to fly high to leverage their advantage over ground sensors

- make their strike aircraft revert to nape-of-earth missions (which are very attrition prone to even low level SAMs) from the post-Balakote high altitude release of the inaccurate H4,and hence won’t get the full range of a release at high altitude and max release speeds.

So releasing an ARM/AGM at full range won’t be easy and is a regression to the pre-PGM days. It might be back to iron bombs and glory days.

I think they will get Chinese clones of similar specs and call it a win. Atleast until the longer range Rudram come online and things get reset for them again.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Deans wrote:
ldev wrote:....
Not many people realise that the range of ground (or ship) based radar is limited by the curvature of the earth. The S-400 will work best in conjunction with AEW aircraft and a Akash or a QR-SAM battery to prevent the S-400 being swamped by low level attacks. The IAF base at Halwara with its own air defences, may be a better location for the S-400 than Jalandhar. I think Leh and Tezpur are logical choices for the next batteries.
Agreed. Conversely, not a lot of people get the point that the higher the altitude of the target the greater the likelihood of the s400 radar detecting it. This obvious point is not unknown too the russkis.
IOWS, fighters flying at 20k feet can be detected at very long ranges. Aew and transporters at 30k feet will get detected and engaged at 400km. Hence why they have missiles designed for such ranges.
Those worried that the s400 will be vulnerable to low flying bandits have to realize that said low flyers will have to contend with lltrs and SAMs placed within the larger bubble, which will be mobile and hard to keep up with. And there are a bunch of these within the s400 itself not to mention Akash, Spyder and baraks. Every missile fired against these will reduce the threat to the s400 itself.
Combine this with IAF AEW, aerostat and fighter cover and the picture becomes very difficult for any attacker.

The best chance vs s400 types is a real long range and fast missile. Aka Brahmos. And that's if the damn setup is not mobile. Stationary radar installations will be easier, and possibly solid the use of scalps as well.

The idea that all of a sudden Chinese kh31 analogs are going to render the s400 ineffective is ridiculous.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Roop wrote:
ldev wrote:PAF will use it's anti radiation missiles against the S-400 radar emissions.
But why do you assume that India would meekly and passively allow PAF warplanes to approach even within 100km of the border in times of war or high political tension, never mind 100km from the S-400?
Because it's convenient for his argument.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Btw does anyone know if the mighty j10 radars are equipped with TFM? Are Indian jags? Nape of the earth is all fine and good but didn't work too well even vs the obsolete Iraqi ADS in GW1. Trying stuff like this in a heavily protected airspace could be dangerous or suicidal. Here is an old story about low flyers from desert storm:
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

The RAFs high casualty rates weren't from nap of the earth missions per se. They were from the weapon they deployed for their mission set taking out runways. They had to go right across the runway and use cluster munitions called the JP233. Made them vulnerable. A nap of the earth fast jet with long range munitions like Scalp can be far more survivable.

The JP233 dictated a lousy attack profile.
But the down side is that it must be delivered by pilots flying straight down the runway at extremely low altitudes--as low as 100 to 200 feet--in full range and view of enemy antiaircraft guns. Experts say the pilots cannot even take evasive action to avoid enemy fire if they want to complete their mission successfully.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Karan M wrote:The RAFs high casualty rates weren't from nap of the earth missions per se. They were from the weapon they deployed for their mission set taking out runways. They had to go right across the runway and use cluster munitions called the JP233. Made them vulnerable. A nap of the earth fast jet with long range munitions like Scalp can be far more survivable.
Agreed but long ranged subsonics have disadvantages. In any case, Does the PAF have anything like a scalp. I thought Babar was more of glcm?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by k prasad »

rohitvats wrote: The illustration is representative in nature.

Coming to the range part -

1. Major part/belt of Pakistan which has their main and satellite air-bases is ~250 km from the border.

2. Using an online range calculator, I get the following ranges for different altitudes:
- 300+km for 20,000 feet
- 250+km for 15,000 feet
- 200+km for 10,000 feet
- 150+ km for 5,000 feet

3. The main surveillance radar of S-400 (which I've assumed is 100km inside from IB), does not require the full 600km range to detect air activity within Pakistan airspace.
I wonder how feasible it might be to place LR radar assets atop Girnar. At 1070 m, with a clear line of sight in most directions, the distance back from the border might be justified by the ground line of sight gained. Certainly an interesting prospect for SIGINT and ELINT.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Manish_P »

Cain Marko wrote:
Roop wrote: But why do you assume that India would meekly and passively allow PAF warplanes to approach even within 100km of the border in times of war or high political tension, never mind 100km from the S-400?
Because it's convenient for his argument.
Noob pooch.. during post Pathankot-Uri-Balakot did we enforce a no-gap 100 km no fly zone for the PAF?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/14 ... 33665?s=20 ---> So we grabbed a snapshot from @AviationWall video where we get a great capture of MiG-29Bs in both pre-upgrade state and post upgrade state. What if put some details via an infographic?

Image
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Managing a Congested Airspace over the Future Battle Area
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... ttle-area/
By Air Marshal Anil Chopra (retd), 09 Jan 2022
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Click on link below for video. Report from Times Now and dated 31 Dec 2021.

https://twitter.com/TimesNow/status/147 ... 01704?s=20 ---> India considering to purchase additional S-400 or newer S-500 squadrons. Srinjoy Chowdhury with details.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rishirishi »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_D ... n_variants
n May 2021, the U.S. Air Force had awarded a $14 billion contract to Lockheed Martin to build new 128 Block 70/72 F-16 Fighting Falcon fighter jets on behalf of Bahrain, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Taiwan, Morocco and Jordan through 2026.[42][43]

India paid about 9 billion for 36 Rafales. Wonder if it would be an idea to get some Vipers, just to jack up the numbers? Best would be getting hold of the JSF. But US will probably not sell.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Rishirishi wrote:India paid about 9 billion for 36 Rafales. Wonder if it would be an idea to get some Vipers, just to jack up the numbers? Best would be getting hold of the JSF. But US will probably not sell.
Apples-to-Oranges Comparison. And forget about F-35.

The $9 billion for the 36 Rafales include not just the aircraft, but the base infrastructure, the ISE upgrades, the weapons, spares, PBL, etc. A similar deal for 36 F-16Vs would have been cheaper (cost of aircraft + weapons + spares), as the American MIC has a monopoly on that. However, when we factor in the base infrastructure + ISE + PBL, etc it would have driven the cost up. By how much is hard to guesstimate, as that is unique to each aircraft.

Even if a new deal for 114 MRFA (all F-21s or even F-16Vs) was signed today, India will not get it for US $110 million per F-16V. US $110 million is the cost of 128 F-16V at US $14 billion. I don't know what the cost includes, but weapons + spares could very well be in there. No one produces quality maal at relatively cheaper prices like the Khan does. The Rafale was (and will always be) considerably more expensive by that measure. However, a new type will require base infrastructure + ISE + PBL.

Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar (retd) said that if the Rafale is chosen for the MRFA deal, the IAF will only require 90 more aircraft (still unaffordable). But if another type is chosen, then 114 will be required (even more unaffordable). And since there is no money for 114 MRFA or 90 Rafales, the IAF will have to go in for a smaller deal of 36 - 72 MRFA (in batches). A new type will require all those three parameters for the IAF to conduct meaningful air operations and exploit the platform. But that would result in stretching the already scarce CAPEX budget even further to acquire a brand new type. There is no game changer that the F-16V has, that the Rafale already does not do. For that matter, none of the aircraft in the MRFA contest do either. Sure the F-15EX can carry more, the Su-35 has beautiful maneuverability, etc, etc, etc. But is that worth investing meagre CAPEX for that? That is a cost benefit analysis that only the IAF can make. Not easy (or even possible) to do here.

The best course of action is to order additional Rafales in batches (36 now and 36 later). But that is as far as it should go. The only aircraft that can meet the IAF's needs - and that too in triple digits - is the Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter. If the IAF is serious about achieving 42 squadrons to conduct - as the IAF calls it - full spectrum of operations, then the Mk2 is absolutely essential. There is no beating around that bush and the IAF has to seriously pursue that course of action. The recent IAF acceptance of the Critical Design Review - of the Mk2 - is a great step towards that goal. Achieving milestones of this nature is more important to the program, than focusing on what Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari says (or does not say) about the aircraft.

As mentioned in BRF during the SE fighter contest ---> the only aircraft that can meet the IAF's needs is the Tejas.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Tejas Mk2 - the only solution to the IAF's panacea of low squadron strength.

And this is not even the jingo in me that is speaking, but rather pure economics.

Image Source:- https://defenceview.in/indias-new-fight ... nd-jaguar/

Image
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote:...

As mentioned in BRF during the SE fighter contest ---> the only aircraft that can meet the IAF's needs is the Tejas.
The only aircraft that can meet quite a lot (not all) of the IAF's needs, within the limits of the budget which the GoI can make available, and is a must to build our own MIL-IND complex, by supporting (providing business) the current components of our fledgling defence manufacturing ecosystem.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

Cain Marko wrote:
Karan M wrote:The RAFs high casualty rates weren't from nap of the earth missions per se. They were from the weapon they deployed for their mission set taking out runways. They had to go right across the runway and use cluster munitions called the JP233. Made them vulnerable. A nap of the earth fast jet with long range munitions like Scalp can be far more survivable.
Agreed but long ranged subsonics have disadvantages. In any case, Does the PAF have anything like a scalp. I thought Babar was more of glcm?
Long range subsonic actually have many advantages given they can fly nap of the earth profiles over ground terrain which a Brahmos will struggle to achieve. Its flight control system will struggle to keep pace with sudden changes in terrain at low alt at Mach 3. Subsonic can do this far more efficiently and hence they are hard to detect and can implement multiple fuel efficient attack methods.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ldev »

Cain Marko wrote:
Roop wrote: But why do you assume that India would meekly and passively allow PAF warplanes to approach even within 100km of the border in times of war or high political tension, never mind 100km from the S-400?
Because it's convenient for his argument.
Cainji, "convenient for his argument", :wink: we are not that cynical are we, even after all these years on BRF where everyone has their own well known entrenched views :)

Let me elaborate. First, for the PAF the holy grail in Feb 2019 was to shoot down an SU-30. Why? Because it represented the then pinnacle/pride of the IAF and a single one down would act as a huge morale booster for Pakistan and a huge blow to morale for India. And the total number of PAF aircraft put up that day was 24?? Or some such large number if I recall. Fast forward to today. For those same reasons, today the single most valuable target for the PAF will be the S-400 system in general and it's radars in particular. No doubt, the S-400 is a very useful tool for the IAF, but by the same token it is also the numero uno target for the PAF. The Phalcon AWACs is probably a close second.

That entire discussion with Rohit Vats was sparked off by his statement that the S-400 will/should be deployed in Jalandhar i.e Adampur. My counter argument was that it should be placed at some other location further away from the border, maybe Ambala. The Pakistan border at it's closest point is ~95 km from Adampur. As demonstrated in Feb 2019, the PAF is capable of mounting elaborate feints with a relatively large number of aircraft. From a tactical standpoint, even in times of heightened tension, there is nothing to prevent the PAF from mounting a feint by launching 15-20 aircraft, 250 km away, well within their borders, at an altitude to provoke the IAF to switch on the S-400 radar to figure out what is happening, why is the PAF launching so many aircraft. And at the same time the PAF could have 10 or even 15 relatively cheap JF-17s, armed with either the CM-102 and/or MAR-1 ARM, (which have a range of ~100 km when launched from altitude), loitering at 250 feet, just across the border. Unless the IAF has AWACS on patrol, and we know that the IAF is short on AWACs to provide 24x7 coverage,they will be blind to the low flying ARM carriers. And once the S-400 radars are switched on, the JF-17s will do a climb to 10 or even 15 thousand feet and launch a saturation ARM attack with 20-30 ARM headed for the S-400 radars. Sure, some of them will be swatted down, and maybe some JF-17s will also be shot down, but some anti radiation missiles may get through and destroy the radar. My point was, when the S-400 has longer range missiles such as the 48N6 (250 km) and 40N6 (400 km), why take the risk to place it within the maximum range of PAF anti radiation missiles? It can be placed 200 km from the border, out of the maximum range of Pakistan's anti radiation missiles and yet be effective given it's own long range missiles.

This could become even more of an issue if China supplies the YJ-91 anti radiation missile with the J-10C which the PAF is supposed to receive. And the PLAAF is also testing yet another anti radiation missile, seen recently on a J-16. Even if that new missile is not supplied to the PAF, it will eventually become an issue in relation to placement of future S-400 systems on the LAC, depending on it's range.
konaseema
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by konaseema »

Unless war is declared, I don't think the Indian government or IAF is going to fire S-400 missiles on every / any aircraft that is going to take off from PAF airbases. That said, if they are on a SEAD mission and anti-radiation missiles are fired at our air defense infrastructure or the PAF jets fly 10-15 kms closer to the IB or LoC, the first salvo of S-400 missiles will not be fired. So our other existing air defense assets like LRSAM, Akash, QRSAM etc will come into play, which are integrated with the overall air defense network or those deployed to protect the S-400 battalion. That said, once the first such instance occurred and there is further escalation, based on the orders, any / all PAF inventory in air that is considered as a threat will be a target for the S-400 battalions deployed in the areas of engagement. It would be interesting to see, when the LRSAM, Akash-NG (when deployed) / Akash - 1S / Akash will be used compared to the missiles with similar range from the S-400 inventory will be used. I hope and wish that all these air defense systems are / will be integrated with our overall air defense command network and function as one homogeneous entity and not leave any gapping holes with extensive testing / war gaming.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Barath »

Cain Marko wrote:
Karan M wrote:The RAFs high casualty rates weren't from nap of the earth missions per se. They were from the weapon they deployed for their mission set taking out runways. They had to go right across the runway and use cluster munitions called the JP233. Made them vulnerable. A nap of the earth fast jet with long range munitions like Scalp can be far more survivable.
Agreed but long ranged subsonics have disadvantages.
https://medium.com/raf-caps/operation-g ... fa7fb8b26e

I recommend the personal account.

RAF casualty rates were driven by doctrine, equipment, training, and culture. They had set their expectations based on their Warsaw pact enemy and situation in europe, set their doctrine and took a doctrine holiday, even as it drove equipment, training and above all expectations. They expected to lose aircraft, (and indeed they lost the equivalent of a fast jet squadron a year in peacetime and accepted it as par). And they planned to maximize effect instead of placing a premium on their lives.

They were able to come up with alternatives, but only after they looked at other forces and realized that the war they had expected to fight was a very different war from what folks were fighting.

---

Having said that, I agree with Karan that long ranged subsonics definitely can have their advantages. From using the terrain more effectively, to providing safer stand off range for the plane to flexibility - being better able to accommodate stealth and other trade offs ...(scalp is low observable)
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by YashG »

In a *near* hot hot situation, S400 will not fire even if PAF planes are in 100Km radius of some batteries as long as PAF planes are within their side of border. Unless the RoE says otherwise. This situation will be subject to RoE. If we have fire first RoE then entire Pak airspace is a roast with S400. So essentially it will be very RoE dependent.

RohitVats's analysis is more appropriate when the RoE is clear - swat down anything PAF.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

LDev, your scenario is simplistic in the extreme.

For one, the S-400 radar need not be switched on for the IAF to figure out what's happening in Pak. They have the IACCS for that with multiple overlapping radars. And why wouldn't the IAF use AEW&C? They have 5 AEW&CS and 2 aerostat radars and multiple other systems, several of which will be mast mounted, plus a range of ESM and ELINT systems in service.

Second, the ARMs even if they were successfully launched, such as the MAR-1 are notoriously vulnerable to deception and the simple tactic of shutting the radar down and relocating. That's the reason for the complexity inherent in the NGARM with its multiple sensors. The ARMs and their shooters also have to run the gauntlet of the S-400 itself, the MRSAM and the Akash. And in the near future, a CIWS, all of which can target and take down small RCS targets. The S-400 itself can range upto 40, 120, 250 and 400 km.

It would be absurd to think that the IAF hasn't even thought of these most basic of things. By no means is the S-400 invulnerable, and there are many ways to "fight" it, but your scenario would have a very low probability of success, and also put the PAF planes, from their perspective, at unacceptably high risk.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Thank you koonaseema, YashG and KaranM. Just a couple of points to add;

1) The S-400 is not a stand alone system. It is just one part of a larger and intricate air defence network that is still in the works of being set up. Much of the older systems are now being phased out (i.e. SA-3s and SA-8s) and newer systems are being inducted. The S-400 is just one of those systems that are coming online.

2) Taking that into account, the S-400's deployments in India have been determined by the IAF to optimally exploit the systems' capabilities. Those deployments will be regularly reviewed as other SAM systems come on line. The current location might not be their permanent placement. They may move the S-400 to a better location, if it will serve the IAF better. Or they may bolster the S-400's current location with other SAM systems to overcome any deficiencies that the S-400 might have.

3) The S-400 has been bestowed a mythical status largely due to our 24-7 news cycle media that loves to overhype everything. Whoever can be the loudest and most garish gets the greatest TRPs. Best avoided.
ldev
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ldev »

Karan M wrote:LDev, your scenario is simplistic in the extreme.
.........

.......It would be absurd to think that the IAF hasn't even thought of these most basic of things. By no means is the S-400 invulnerable, and there are many ways to "fight" it, but your scenario would have a very low probability of success, and also put the PAF planes, from their perspective, at unacceptably high risk.
Agree with what you say, my point was purely on the suggested location. When you are armed with a sniper rifle, why should you get in range of a knife fighter?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by nachiket »

YashG wrote:In a *near* hot hot situation, S400 will not fire even if PAF planes are in 100Km radius of some batteries as long as PAF planes are within their side of border. Unless the RoE says otherwise. This situation will be subject to RoE. If we have fire first RoE then entire Pak airspace is a roast with S400. So essentially it will be very RoE dependent.
Even if RoE allows targeting across the border SAM crews will use their missiles judiciously to attack only those targets which are determined to be a legitimate threat. If you start firing missiles at anything within range you'll make it way too easy for the enemy to drain the battery of its missiles by constantly baiting it at the edge of the engagement envelope.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

Rakesh precisely. Also, the IACCS today feeds off of radars which include a range of low level, medium altitude and high power systems, plus the AEW&CS/AWACS. Add to this the multiple batteries of Akash, MRSAM, SpyDer, and the upgraded SA-3, all of which come with their own radars. Then add additional sensors which are completely passive in nature and which the PAF can't even pick up like our ELINT networks.

One of the key attributes of the S-400 is its mobility. It fires, relocates, it fires, it relocates. Its emplacement, displacement times are within minutes. With what accuracy can a PAF surveillance aircraft geolocate and direct effective fire against such a mobile system? The US and allies expended 100s of HARMs with low benefit during the Balkan air ops.
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