Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

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LakshmanPST
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by LakshmanPST »

YashG wrote:China has near about 1500 fighter jets (most of them not retiring) as of now vis-a-vis 600ish of ours . We will add 350 but also retire 200.

China is surely aiming to add atleast 1000 jets in next 20 years, likely more. They have done this before while we haven't done this (350).

We are probably going to be outnumbered 1:4! (not including what PAF with have against us).

This maths doesnt add up!!

<Wish> We should've added 250 MK1As this decade + 150 Mk2 </Wish>
PLAAF may add a 1000 jets in the next decade... But they also have around 800 jets to retire in the next decade...

Currently, PLAAF outnumbers IAF 1:3 and that ratio won't change for another 10-15 years...

I of course agree that IAF need more manned jets beyond the sanctioned 42...
Last edited by LakshmanPST on 12 Sep 2021 10:40, edited 1 time in total.
YashG
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by YashG »

Pratyush wrote:The IAF needs to start planning for 1800-2400 manned fighting force by 2040. Plus whatever number of UCAV they are going to need.
+100.

Also only possible with a domestic engine, either through safran or russian collab or entirely by ourselves - we cant do without a domestic engine.
Cain Marko
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

India counts on the PLAAF not being able to press numbers southward thanks to their large vulnerabilities in the east. And because of the Himalayan heights still favoring India.

Thank the Gods that the Himalayas fawningly look over desh. for surely it's leadership has not not done so for the longest time.

Note that the conventional discrepancy is now too wide for any real catching u vs plaaf/plan, without even thinking of tsp.. Iaf has little option but to play defensive on eastern front while pounding the west. The way forward is not playing catch up but by creating a mix of hardware that allows for rather asymmetrical strikes.

Either come up with a smaller but Uber tech savvy force, which is unlikely since the Chinese now seem ahead on most fronts and the tech advantage has dissipated over past 2 decades. OR go the Russki route with absolutely brazen nuclear deterrents. And DO NOT forget to remind adversaries by testing these at regular intervals. They have more to lose, they need to understand that. And I think India is doing this at least to some extent. Hence the rather regular BM, slbm, ssbn tests. The new smart torpedo is another step in the right direction along with the emphasis on omnirole SSB/GN force.

The high tech esoteric stuff in smaller quantities is also coming in slowly. Raffle plus s400. And much better ADS will all help. Need more AEW, MPAA, ISR , AND perhaps a quick purchase of 36 JSF type, even pakfa might be worth it. As a silver bullet force. I think the iaf is looking at the raffle for this role although I'm not too sure it matches up against the other two. In any case another 36 top end are needed. Then I'll feel some samadhan.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by nam »

May be we could learn from what PAF is doing against us or what PLAAF did against the Soviet. They went for numbers. Fighters with decent capability, but numbers.

We can make fun of JF17 all we want, but 250 JF17 with BVR will keep 250 fighters on our side busy to deal with them. Pak is 1/10 our GDP but PAF is more 1/2 of IAF!

PLAAF similarly went for loads of single engine fighters to add numbers.

In the meantime IAF has majority of it's fighters with twin engines, then complain about CAPEX & OPEX! :roll:
Pratyush
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

If the IAF is thinking that the PLAF will not be able to commit a significant portion of its fleet against India.

Then I have to say that they are living in a fools paradise.

During the cold war when a bulk of the PLAF fighters were low performance short range designes. The IAF thought process was valid.

In 2040 cold war would have been over for 50 years. The PLAF will have a force that is capable of fighting with the US and it's western Pacific allies on a near equal terms. Nothing stops such a force from coming west and south to clobber IAF that will be 1/4 the size of PLAF by that time.

Unless there is an iron clad treaty system with mutual assistance and defence built-in to such a treaty. The expectation that PLAF will not come west and south is foolish beyond belief.

Besides what is the value of US word in light of Afghanistan withdrawal.

What I am trying to say is that the IAF needs to get significantly bigger and more powerful if it has to stand any chance to deal with PRC and TSP combination.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by kit »

Pratyush wrote:If the IAF is thinking that the PLAF will not be able to commit a significant portion of its fleet against India.

In 2040 cold war would have been over for 50 years. The PLAF will have a force that is capable of fighting with the US and it's western Pacific allies on a near equal terms. Nothing stops such a force from coming west and south to clobber IAF that will be 1/4 the size of PLAF by that time.

What I am trying to say is that the IAF needs to get significantly bigger and more powerful if it has to stand any chance to deal with PRC and TSP combination.
IAF would be at least half of PLAAF and the third largest AF in the world

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LakshmanPST
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by LakshmanPST »

I read in some Chinese forums that PLAAF plans to have nearly 100 air brigades... However, it is not clear whether the number 100 is only fighter brigades or it includes Bombers & Traning brigades as well...
As on date, I think they have around 70 Fighter brigades... Each fighter brigade has 24 fighters for newer jets and 30 fighters for older jets... That's around 1700 fighter jets...
The production capacity exclusuvely for PLAAF is around 80 jets per year...
This strength will not change for a decade as their J7s, J8, JH7s and earlier J11s, total numbering around 800 jets, will all be replaced over the next decade...
-
In best case scenario, assuming that they want to maintain only current strength of 70 Air Brigades, that will be 1700 4+ Generation jets by 2030...
In the worst case, assuming that the 100 Air Brigades are exclusively for fighters, they will need a total of 2400 jets...
So, at current production rates, they will reach that number only by 2040...
----
Coming to India... We will reach 34 squadrons by end of 2030 and 42 squadrons only in 2040, assuming current procurement plans go as planned...
At 18-21 per squadron, that will be around 800+ jets by 2040...

If PLAAF is planning for 1700 fighters, then IAF maintaining half the strength of PLAAF is not a bad situation IMO...
However, if PLAAF is planning for 2400 fighters, then we may have to increase our squadron numbers to atleast 60 squadrons from sanctioned 42...
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by YashG »

kit wrote:IAF would be at least half of PLAAF and the third largest AF in the world
How? They will touch 2-2.5K fighters. We will be 700. Looks more like 1:3 or 1:4 odds

PRC is definitely looking at 2.5K fighters. Its a very number oriented force. 1:2 is still a tall order in a 2 front situation but why go worse. And a simple fighter with an effective, longer a2a is still credible defence.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:If the IAF is thinking that the PLAF will not be able to commit a significant portion of its fleet against India.

Then I have to say that they are living in a fools paradise.
How did you come to that conclusion?
Pratyush wrote:In 2040 cold war would have been over for 50 years. The PLAF will have a force that is capable of fighting with the US and it's western Pacific allies on a near equal terms. Nothing stops such a force from coming west and south to clobber IAF that will be 1/4 the size of PLAF by that time.
Can you show me - via map below - by what you define by "coming west and south..."?

Image
Pratyush wrote:Unless there is an iron clad treaty system with mutual assistance and defence built-in to such a treaty. The expectation that PLAF will not come west and south is foolish beyond belief.

Besides what is the value of US word in light of Afghanistan withdrawal.
With who do you want to have said iron clad treaty with?
Pratyush wrote:What I am trying to say is that the IAF needs to get significantly bigger and more powerful if it has to stand any chance to deal with PRC and TSP combination.
The IAF is struggling to reach 42 and it looks like that number will never be reached with manned aircraft.

Getting significantly bigger and more powerful cannot happen via manned aircraft alone.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Coming west from the Eastern and more populated and supported regions of PRC.

The numbers of tanker aircrafts will make all the difference. If the numbers over the next 20 years are in the region is 240 or more. Then the lack of physical presence in more western regions can be overcome.
PLAF depending upon the depth of training program might have enough crew available to to conduct 1 sortie per jet or 2 per jet per day.

The various Guam killer platforms and weapons by default will have the range to reach out to west and hit India.


As will the availability of new physical airbases that can be built in the next 20 years.

Having said so, the American withdrawal from Afghanistan and the manner in which it happened. Has removed any ability to trust that country.

Japan and Taiwan will not have the size of force or the ability to be a threat to the PRC in order to support India. Which can hold the PRC forces in the east in case of a fight between PRC and India.

India has no choice but to build a a larger air force with a mix of both manned and unmanned platforms. In order to achieve a draw in a two front conventional conflict.

IAF will need to be at between 70 to 75% of the combined strength of TSP and PRC. The short distances between the IAF air base and combat area make it possible for us to be able to conduct a higher number of sorties. As compared to the PRC. Thereby reducing the numbers needed to deal with PRC.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by SinghS »

YashG wrote:
kit wrote:IAF would be at least half of PLAAF and the third largest AF in the world
How? They will touch 2-2.5K fighters. We will be 700. Looks more like 1:3 or 1:4 odds

PRC is definitely looking at 2.5K fighters. Its a very number oriented force. 1:2 is still a tall order in a 2 front situation but why go worse. And a simple fighter with an effective, longer a2a is still credible defence.
The whole discussion is moving ahead assuming that PRC can pit its full airforce against IAF. We can't match 1:1 or even 1: 2 with PRC + Pakis combined. This is a reality given past sins of Congis + Babooz + IAF. Even now Babooz won't change for a decade. IAF is showing changes.

In my opinion we should have treaties and bases around PRC + Pakis in a such a way that we don't allow them the liberty of focusing most of their forces to our home front. If we can run rings around them and harass them using long range missiles + unmanned combo from surprising directions, we can punish them well on the home front.

Key is to have allies who can act and allow us to use facilities in case of war.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1437 ... 38528?s=20 ---> The Super Trio in action at the roof of the World.

Photographs by Flt Lt DS Sekhon.

Image

Image

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Vivek K
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Vivek K »

Nice - but imported! Sorry couldn't resist.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Its okay. I know you are trying.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:Coming west from the Eastern and more populated and supported regions of PRC.

The numbers of tanker aircrafts will make all the difference. If the numbers over the next 20 years are in the region is 240 or more. Then the lack of physical presence in more western regions can be overcome.

PLAF depending upon the depth of training program might have enough crew available to to conduct 1 sortie per jet or 2 per jet per day.

The various Guam killer platforms and weapons by default will have the range to reach out to west and hit India.
Sirjee, what you are proposing is not feasible. But if you want to believe that, it is fine.

Which Guam killer platform are you referring to?
Pratyush wrote:As will the availability of new physical airbases that can be built in the next 20 years.

Having said so, the American withdrawal from Afghanistan and the manner in which it happened. Has removed any ability to trust that country.

Japan and Taiwan will not have the size of force or the ability to be a threat to the PRC in order to support India. Which can hold the PRC forces in the east in case of a fight between PRC and India.

India has no choice but to build a a larger air force with a mix of both manned and unmanned platforms. In order to achieve a draw in a two front conventional conflict.
Unmanned platforms is the next thing BIG now. That will be the decisive factor. I am happy to see some steps have been taken in that regard, but a long way to go.
Pratyush wrote:IAF will need to be at between 70 to 75% of the combined strength of TSP and PRC. The short distances between the IAF air base and combat area make it possible for us to be able to conduct a higher number of sorties. As compared to the PRC. Thereby reducing the numbers needed to deal with PRC.
The IAF needs to hit 42 squadrons first, then we can look at greater numbers. We are struggling to hit 42.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ashthor »

Kindly change the map...it shows POK erroneously

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote: Unmanned platforms is the next thing BIG now. That will be the decisive factor. I am happy to see some steps have been taken in that regard, but a long way to go..
Hmm that old Yak herder used to talk about converting a bunch of fishbeds into unmanned platforms. Wonder if they ever played with that idea. We surely have plenty of frames.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh,

When I am referring to Guam killer. I am referring to weapons that makes it impossible for the US to use that base for any kind of offensive or defensive operations.

Weapons such as the DF 26, Or the hypersonic glider, or the H20 stealth bomber or the H6 missile carrier.

These coupled with in-flight tankers will make it possible for PRC to conduct offensive operations far for core PRC population and industrial centers.

Add to that the PRCs aircraft building program. You are looking at a military that would be capable of dealing with the Americans on equal terms in the 2040s and beyond.

This is the force that we need to be concerned about.

I am not sure that the current IAF planning for the next 20 years and beyond will be sufficient to hold our own in a 2 front war.

Which is why I am insisting on a larger force

You are right about UCAV being a future force multiplier. However, the numbers in order to fight the monster that PRC has a potential of being will have to be substantially greater than the 3000 odd that the HVT tweet is referring to.

The size of the fighter force also has to exceed the long cherished 42 squadrons. You are also correct that in order to grow bigger. 42 squadrons have to be reached first.

WRT, the assessment of IAF which makes them comfortable with 42 squadrons. I am not very confident of the of the professional judgement from the IAF. Because until quite recently they were insisting that the Rafale was needed in much larger numbers than ordered and that Tejas was a 3 legged cheetah. That they had no plan B.

I accept that the attitude of IAF has changed substantially but must more is needed.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by mody »

Not placing additional orders for Tejas Mk1/MK1A is sheer stupidity. Only 6 squadrons to replace the 6 squadrons of Bison plus 2 squadrons of Mig-27s. Not to mention the the 2 squadrons of old Jaguars.
Apart from making up the numbers, we need to address our weakness in mass production. There is hardly an ecosystem for airplane manufacturing in India and that too is being setup along with the Tejas program. We need this production line humming at a minimum 24 aircrafts per year, to get it ready for the Tejas MK2, AMCA and TEDBF productions to follow. Besides the private sector companies that have made the investments to start producing major components large the fuselage sections and the wings etc. besides so many other parts, also should be given higher numbers to stabilize their production line and also amortize the cost of their investment in a shorter duration of time. In addition to that for composite parts, the drawings will change for Tejas MK2. Hence production for the fuselage sections etc. will be less than 100 nos as per the current orders.

At current rate of production the planned 350 IAF aircrafts, plus 80-100 TEDBF aircrafts would take more than 20 years to build.
Besides single engine cheaper to operate aircrafts can help increase the numbers for IAF, without breaking the bank.
The Tejas MK1A with the Elta 2052 or Uttam Aesa radar, Astra MK1, Astra MK2, I-Derby-ER, Python-V, R-73E, RudraM-1 etc, plus all the air to ground weapons, plus Elta 8222 or comparable indigenous EW pod, digital RWR, SDR etc would be superior to the upgraded Mk2's except for the range and also superior to the Mig-29s.
More importantly superior to the block 52 F-16s that the PAF has.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by bharathp »

I presume - additional orders will be from Tejas Mk2 - specially to replace the Jaguars. I am waiting for Aug 2022 - the anticipated day for Tejas Mk2's full functional model (first flight following year I believe). thay should give us a glimpse of our future airpower.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

bharathp wrote:I presume - additional orders will be from Tejas Mk2 - specially to replace the Jaguars. I am waiting for Aug 2022 - the anticipated day for Tejas Mk2's full functional model (first flight following year I believe). thay should give us a glimpse of our future airpower.
MK2 aayega jabh aayega sir, what is the problem in ordering additional mk1/a?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by hemant_sai »

Cain Marko wrote:
bharathp wrote:I presume - additional orders will be from Tejas Mk2 - specially to replace the Jaguars. I am waiting for Aug 2022 - the anticipated day for Tejas Mk2's full functional model (first flight following year I believe). thay should give us a glimpse of our future airpower.
MK2 aayega jabh aayega sir, what is the problem in ordering additional mk1/a?
Not fair until HAL delivers at least 4 of those by JAN-2025 and it must impress IAF :) . So more orders if at all given can be only in 2025.
Year 2024 by all means is not practical due to major elections.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by bharathp »

Cain Marko wrote:
bharathp wrote:I presume - additional orders will be from Tejas Mk2 - specially to replace the Jaguars. I am waiting for Aug 2022 - the anticipated day for Tejas Mk2's full functional model (first flight following year I believe). thay should give us a glimpse of our future airpower.
MK2 aayega jabh aayega sir, what is the problem in ordering additional mk1/a?
nothing against mk1A or Mk1 - but the incremental cost for Mk2 vs the gains (when compared to Mk1 or Mk1A) outweigh the wait time IMO.
I would rather have the 6-8 sq of Mk2 than 2 more of Mk1A at the expense of Mk2
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

hemant_sai wrote:
Not fair until HAL delivers at least 4 of those by JAN-2025 and it must impress IAF :) . So more orders if at all given can be only in 2025.
Year 2024 by all means is not practical due to major elections.
If the product is Indian then the election cycle will not have any effect on its acquisition.

It can be taken as a routine administrative decision.

No issues. But it has to be ready by that time.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

bharathp wrote: nothing against mk1A or Mk1 - but the incremental cost for Mk2 vs the gains (when compared to Mk1 or Mk1A) outweigh the wait time IMO.
I would rather have the 6-8 sq of Mk2 than 2 more of Mk1A at the expense of Mk2
The Indian defence budget has enough space to be able to accommodate the extra few squadrons of MK1 in case of any delay in mk2. So that is not going to be a major issue.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Kakkaji »

Pratyush wrote:
bharathp wrote: nothing against mk1A or Mk1 - but the incremental cost for Mk2 vs the gains (when compared to Mk1 or Mk1A) outweigh the wait time IMO.
I would rather have the 6-8 sq of Mk2 than 2 more of Mk1A at the expense of Mk2
The Indian defence budget has enough space to be able to accommodate the extra few squadrons of MK1 in case of any delay in mk2. So that is not going to be a major issue.
But, if you order additional Mk1As at the last minute after the delays on Mk2 become evident, then you run into lead times for delivery of additional GE404IN-20 engines.

IMHO, the orders for additional squadrons of Mk1A have to be placed soon, independent of the status of Mk2.

I don't wish for delays on Mk2 but, unfortunately, HAL has never met any originally declared deadlines on the LCA program. That's the reality. :(
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ernest »

I believe a lot of people in HAL are looking at LIFT/MAX as the future, as also pointed out by BRFites earlier. I am just replugging it here

HAL is looking at Tejas LIFT/MAX as good candidates for export. It would be logical for the IAF to also place orders above the MK1A, so that we have enough orders to keep the line active. Exports will not be steady, but this kind of aircraft has lot of market well into the next decade.

IAF can also get half a squadron every year from this line, while an optimal capacity can be planned keeping exports in mind. IAF orders can seed the line, and at the same give the air force some extra capable airframes for cheap. By the time (2028-29), MK1A production ends, we will be in a position to utilize MK1A infra for LIFT/MAX with minimal changes.

Edit: Might also give IAF some LIFT specific benefit on trainings, not sure how real and relevant it is
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Kalkaji, you are right about the lead times for new aircraft orders. But every thing is moving as per the IAF planning.

The IAF has to start acting as if it's hair is on fire asking for more. It has to put in place a detailed analysis of the capacity the PRC will have. Inflate it by 1000%. Then perhaps the IAF will get sufficient numbers to prevail in a war with a PRC that thinks in terms of fighting United States.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ashthor »

Cant we have additional 4+4 squadrons of MK1A dedicated for western and northern theatre commands?
The ordered MK1A then can have some swing roles between the commands.

A certain percentage of the heavy and medium fighter aircraft should be kept away from the theatre commands to have swings roles between the commands as and when needed.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by mody »

The Tejas MK2 is expected to enter full production after 2027. It is practically a brand new aircraft. We can accelerate the development cycle, but even enter serial production by end of 2027 after 1st prototype being rolled out in 2022, would be a miracle.

Besides what is being missed is that we have never mass produced a fighter aircraft from scratch. All our other productions to date have been assemblies of kits. Even the Su-30MKI cannot really be counted.
For the Tejas MK2, we are projecting a production run of about 170 aircrafts. At 16 per year, that would take more than 10 years.
A switch to higher production rates will not happen automatically. Also, the production of TEDBF and prototypes of AMCA will overlap with production of Tejas MK2. How will we be able to manage all that. Not to mention other projects like approximately 100 nos of HTT-40 etc.

Additional 2 squadrons of Tejas MK1A, to be produced in the same time frame, would mean an increase in production rate to 24 per year.
The private sector which is producing major parts like the front and middle fuselage sections and the wings etc. would also have to match this production rate. Also, their investments in setting up this kind of production will get amortized faster. Please note that the design for all of these sections will change, once the Tejas MK2 comes online and new investment will be required in dies jigs and fixtures. A total production of only 105 single seat Tejas MK1/MK1A does not make sense. (Even from these the first 16 were made by HAL, without the private sector providing modules like the pre-fabricated fuselage sections etc).
HAL would have to invest in having those many assembly stations. This kind of projects have to be considered as national strategic projects and the entire production should be planned accordingly.
The Tejas MK2 will bring improved capabilities as compared to the MK1A, but we have to remember that the MK1A itself will be better than anything that our western neighbour has. Also, we are woefully short of numbers right now and that needs to improve over the next 5-6 years. The only way to do this is to either increase the production of MK1A or go in for imports. I wouldn't mind an additional 2 squadrons of Rafael being procured, but any further would be a shame.
We have to get our entire aerospace ecosystem humming and going full throttle from 2022 to 2040 to get to where we want to be.

Consider the helicopter requirement that we are going to have and the apparent complete lack of planning for the same.
Over the next 10 years, we will need to produce about 400 LUH (or I hope not a mix of 200 LUH and 200 Ka-226T), about 150-200 LCH, and 100 NUH.
That is close to 700 helicopters required in 10 years time.
A production rate of 60-72 units would be required to achieve this.
The private sector companies like TASL should have been roped in a long time back to start developing the fuselage of the different models. The rotor blades and many other parts that can be outsourced by HAL, should be done and the ToT for the same should have happened with private sector vendors. All the private and public sector companies would need to make substantial investments for this kind of production run. HAL has started work on a new facility at Tumkur, but not a single order for either of these three projects has been placed so far. HAL can make the investment and also produce a few prototypes and hand them over to the services, because it is public sector company. No private sector company would be able to make this kind of investments, without any orders in hand.
There has to be national level planning for such projects. The pricing, the numbers required, the vendors that will be involved and the production timelines should all be worked out. Alas in our case, the services will start with user exploitation trials of LUH, LCH, HTT-40 etc. (the services are involved during the development phase and their feedback should come much sooner than user trails) and will ask for changes that will again require various tests and the production will take its own sweet time.

Our entire fleet of Cheetah and Chetaks for all the three services besides the Sea Kings will get retired over the next 10 years. Looking at the current situation I don't feel confident that can actually produce close to 700 helicopters and about 250 aircrafts (6-8 MK1, 18 MK1 Trainers, 73 MK1A, 106 HTT-40, Maybe 40 HJT-36 and 10-30 Tejas MK2) over the next 10 years.
RajaRudra
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by RajaRudra »

It is more economical to go war with Pakistan and neutralize the threat once for all (on the next available opportunity, when china is dealing with its own problem).

The current philosophy of reactionary and waiting (with bare minimum deterrent ) is not feasible in the long run - particularly considering the threat is now from both sides.
williams
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by williams »

RajaRudra wrote:It is more economical to go war with Pakistan and neutralize the threat once for all (on the next available opportunity, when china is dealing with its own problem).

The current philosophy of reactionary and waiting (with bare minimum deterrent ) is not feasible in the long run - particularly considering the threat is now from both sides.
True but what is the opportunity cost and is that better than what we are doing now is the question. Democracies think that way unless you are Khan with reserve currency and opportunity, costs don't matter.
Vips
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Vips »

IAF to bolster fighter fleet with 24 second-hand Mirages.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is set to acquire 24 second-hand Mirage 2000 fighters, made by Dassault Aviation, in an attempt to strengthen its ageing fleet of the fourth-generation fighters and also secure parts for its two existing squadrons of the aircraft, people familiar with the matter said on condition of anonymity. IAF has initialled a contract worth 27 million euros to buy the fighters, eight of which are in ready-to-fly condition, the people cited above added. That works out to a per-aircraft acquisition cost of 1.125 million euros. The people cited above said the aircraft will soon be shipped to India in containers.

IAF’s 35-year old Mirage fleet, which performed exceptionally during the 2019 Balakot operation, is undergoing a mid-life upgrade, the people said – with the trigger for the acquisition of the second-hand aircraft being the immediate need for 300 critical spares. The aircraft is becoming obsolete in France, they added, and IAF chief Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhaduaria decided to go in for the purchase.

Out of the 24 fighters, 13 are in complete condition with engine and airframe intact with eight of them (nearly half a squadron) ready to fly after servicing. The remaining 11 fighters are partially complete but with fuel tanks and ejection seats, which will be scavenged to secure parts for IAF’s two existing squadrons of the fighter.

IAF purchased around 50 fourth-generation Mirage 2000 C and B fighters way back in 1985 with a maintenance contract that expired in 2005. It signed another contract in 2015-2016 with the French original equipment manufacturer.

The purchase highlights the importance of shifting spare parts and engine supply chains to India for future acquisitions as fighters abroad reach obsolescence much faster than in India. Until the Narendra Modi government took the decision of acquiring the 4.5 generation Rafale fighters (also from Dassault), the Mirage 2000 was India’s front-line fighter, a position it has held since the Kargil war. The new Aatmanirbhar Bharat campaign should ensure that original equipment and spares are now manufactured in India so that there is no shortage of spares till the time the fighter is decommissioned, the people cited above said.

The other issue that flows out of this last-minute acquisition is that the IAF and the Indian Navy should plan their fighter acquisition so that there is synergy between the two forces and coherence is maintained in the supply of spare parts, experts said. It also points to the need for the defence ministry to accelerate decisions on replenishing the country’s fighter fleet, especially because China has already moved to fifth-generation fighters and armed drones.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by NRao »

https://mobile.twitter.com/DesiEscobar0 ... 5873347590:
IAF to buy 24 second-hand Mirage 2000 fighter worth 27 million euros from france. 13 jets are in complete condition and remaining 11 fighters are partially complete which will be used to extract spares for existing aircrafts.
LakshmanPST
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by LakshmanPST »

Which country are they buying them from...? Or are they buying directly from Dassault...?
Not mentioned clearly in the article...

Anyways, those 8 Mirages will complete the 9th Squadron which currently has only half the strength...
Last edited by LakshmanPST on 17 Sep 2021 13:19, edited 1 time in total.
Rakesh
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Ex-French Air Force Stocks

Dassault does not have Mirages in that number just lying around.

I know a few IAF officers visited France to look at a few Mirage 2000s. But this many is surprising, even though a large number of them will be used as Christmas trees.

However, if they can improve the serviceability of the three squadrons presently in service, it will go a long way in improving the availability of airframes. More airworthy airframes will result in more mission availability. Also way cheaper than buying new aircraft. Downside is that they don’t have a lot of life left. Another 10 - 15 years and they will have to be retired, just in time with the other M2Ks in service presently.

Would be interesting to know how many of them are twin seaters, as the IAF has lost a number of them recently.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

The Wolfpacks will be at full strength now after this new acquisition. Smart move. If these 8 aircraft at are - C configuration, they'll have RDI, if we are lucky even RDY radars which should still be Mica compatible. Even several RDI equipped Mirages were brought up to that level. We should add our own mission computers as well.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Avinandan »

Out of the 24 fighters, 13 are in complete condition with engine and airframe intact with eight of them (nearly half a squadron) ready to fly after servicing. The remaining 11 fighters are partially complete but with fuel tanks and ejection seats, which will be scavenged to secure parts for IAF’s two existing squadrons of the fighter.
Noob Question : -
Are the 13 ex French Air force Mirages are equivalent to IAF Mirage 2000I or it needs extensive changes.
This was one of the reasons, why Qatari Mirages didn't proceed well.
Karan M
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

The baseline airframes will not be at our advanced level. We didn't take the Qatari Mirages because of the cost.
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