Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

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Pratyush
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

bharathp wrote:complete noob pooch
cant the ghatak be taken forward? we have the base design - think of it like Mk0
we can iterate to Mk1 and then Mk2 in next 15-20 years?
that should/could be our strategic bomber?
I had proposed a 4 dry Kaveri bomber when this blew up. But that suggestion did not went down well with someone.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

@bharatp / Pratyush: A strategic bomber - by its very design - should be a very long range platform because it needs to carry a large volume of internal fuel. This platform will also be required to carry a very heavy payload, significantly higher than what a fighter can carry. And in today's dense AD environment, the bomber will also need to be at least LO (but preferably VLO) to survive reaching its destination.

The Tejas Mk1 and Mk2 are *NOT* going to make the cut. Neither will the Rafale or the Su-30MKI or even the F-15EX. You need an aircraft like the Tu-22, the B-2, the Tu-160, the B-1, the X-6, etc. Nothing else will work.

Below is from Wiki Chacha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-160):

"The Tu-160 has an internal fuel capacity of 130 tonnes (290,000 lbs). Weapons in the Tu-160 are carried in two internal bays, each capable of holding 20,000 kg (44,000 lb) of free-fall weapons or a rotary launcher for nuclear missiles; additional missiles may also be carried externally. The aircraft's total weapons load capacity is 40,000 kg (88,000 lbs). No defensive weapons are provided; the Tu-160 is the first post-World War II Soviet bomber to lack such defenses."

Which modern 4th or 5th generation fighter has such a capacity?

@ Pratyush: Be realistic Sirjee :) What you are suggesting is a clean sheet design. In a country like India, that will take decades to arrive if at all! And stop the back-and-forth with Haridas.

==============================

The question that needs to be asked is what role will a strategic bomber serve in India? What target is there that deep in China that requires a strategic bomber? If we are going to hit population centers in China, you can be 100% sure that it will carry a nuclear warhead. At that stage, it is game over for all. It serves zero purpose to hit population centers with conventional warheads. And striking population centers - with nuclear armed warheads - is what the Agni series of missiles are for. A far more survivable platform versus a strategic bomber.

When we go down the next step on the ladder - for targets (non-population centres) closer to the Indian border - there are cruise missiles that can do that task. So can a strategic bomber - flying well within Indian airspace - launch a salvo of BrahMos-NG or Nirbhay ALCMs? Very possible. Will it work? Very Likely. Will the platform survive such a mission, even within Indian airspace? That is debatable. Are there better options available for such a mission? Absolutely.

But remove the strategic bomber (basically the Tu-160) out of the land strike equation and the other area of operation is the open sea. This is where the Tu-160 will be employed IMVHO. A PLAN carrier battle group will have a robust AD network, but it will not be similar to the PLAGF/PLAAF AD network in Tibet. There will be areas to exploit and this is where the Tu-160 could be employed.

If such a mission is a success, the win will be massive for India....even if the Tu-160 (and her crew) is shot down. Take out the PLAN carrier and it will be a huge blow for China. The benefits of such a successful mission far outweigh the costs. Put yourself in Indian military planners shoes. See the calculations they could be likely making.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Rony wrote:
Rakesh wrote:I doubt we will get any strategic bombers from Russia. I believe a different play is happening here. The bomber is just a smoke screen.
Can you explain what do you mean by that :roll:
Why the rolling eyes? :mrgreen:

Go here ----> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7848&start=1320#p2561077
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ShauryaT »

@Rakesh: Look at it this way. Is there acceptance of the Triad? Yes. Is a LR Bomber the most apt delivery platform for the IAF component of the Triad? Yes. Is the TU-160 the most potent platform available to India? Yes. Does it beat equivalent Chinese capabilities in the near/medium term and provide a superior force threat? Yes.

Is the GOI asking for the most effective platform for strategic assets between the triad arsenal and seeking to make a redacted choice? No.
Is there a better platform (Stealth et al) available to India? No.
Is there any realistic feasibility of India developing a stealth LR bomber in the next 20 years? No.
Are the platform providers proven and reliable suppliers of strategic assets? Yes.
Does acquisition of strategic assets help buy time to fill in the disparities of force, economics and power? Yes.

The only question now is one of logistics and tactics of use doctrine. Flight paths, risks, opportunities, mitigations, etc and maybe one more - dashes the hopes of many who are seeking India to be reliant on Amrika and become subservient - AND I use that word very responsibly.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh, i understand what you are saying. Which is why my timeline for the clean sheet design was mid 30s. Provided the go ahead is given today.

Second, I have wanted to define what strategic means in Indian context, with the following provisions. As the definition you are seeking for strategic in relation to the Tu160 is not required in Indian context. As i am quite sure that Indian government is not planning to avenging British rule over India. :mrgreen:

Therefore, a combat radius of 3000 kms un refueled should be sufficient with a payload of 9 tons.


Having thought about my notional bomber a little more. I think we can get the Russians to supply the new generation turbo fans for the civilian platforms. Such as the PS 90 or the PD 14. use 2 of those to power the aircraft. That should give us a payload of 20 tons and a combat radius of 3000 kms.

Or using 4 of these engines we get a payload of 40 tons and a combat radius of 6000 kms.

Please don't ban me for being over ambitious :P
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by hnair »

Rakesh, time to dust up Prodyut Saar and his re-engined Canberra. “A Triad leg without survivability” seems to be the smoke that is being blown around in this forum. I can understand opening a new vector of attack on Chinese logistics depots using a long range bomber and lots of stand off (expensive) cruise missiles fired from unforeseen directions. It will increase their AD planning and costs tremendously. But even that is iffy.

But selling this affable radar-lover Ruskie plane as being a non-giggle worthy part of triad?

Airforce seem to have minimal role right now in the strategic rocket forces of India, when it comes to China. Like deploying a launcher for the Strategic Command using a C-17.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by kit »

" B1 lancers for India " :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

hnair wrote:Rakesh, time to dust up Prodyut Saar and his re-engined Canberra. “A Triad leg without survivability” seems to be the smoke that is being blown around in this forum. I can understand opening a new vector of attack on Chinese logistics depots using a long range bomber and lots of stand off (expensive) cruise missiles fired from unforeseen directions. It will increase their AD planning and costs tremendously. But even that is iffy.
:lol:
hnair wrote:But selling this affable radar-lover Ruskie plane as being a non-giggle worthy part of triad?
I personally don't see the Tu-160 coming. While possibly being considered, Air HQ will realize that this plane will not last in a dense AD environment over Tibet.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

kit wrote:" B1 lancers for India " :rotfl:
How rumours from twitter take a life of their own :roll: :P
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:Rakesh, i understand what you are saying. Which is why my timeline for the clean sheet design was mid 30s. Provided the go ahead is given today.
That is not going to happen, but I am not going to belabour the point, because it will go nowhere.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

ShauryaT wrote:@Rakesh: Look at it this way. Is there acceptance of the Triad? Yes.
India's triad at the moment consists of the Arihant Class SSBN (sea), Agni ICBMs (land) and Rafale, Mirage 2000 and Su-30MKI (air).

All three are effective.
ShauryaT wrote:Is a LR Bomber the most apt delivery platform for the IAF component of the Triad? Yes. Is the TU-160 the most potent platform available to India? Yes. Does it beat equivalent Chinese capabilities in the near/medium term and provide a superior force threat? Yes.
You should rephrase the first question and from that point, the next two questions you have posed will be redundant.

Q. Is a LR - VLO bomber the most apt delivery platform for the IAF component of the Triad?
A. Yes.

Q. Is the Tu-160 a LR - VLO bomber?
A. No.

The Tu-160 will be going in for a soosai mission over Tibet. She will neither complete her mission or come home.
ShauryaT wrote:Is the GOI asking for the most effective platform for strategic assets between the triad arsenal and seeking to make a redacted choice? No.
Is there a better platform (Stealth et al) available to India? No.
Is there any realistic feasibility of India developing a stealth LR bomber in the next 20 years? No.
Are the platform providers proven and reliable suppliers of strategic assets? Yes.
Does acquisition of strategic assets help buy time to fill in the disparities of force, economics and power? Yes.
Replace most effective platform FOR most realistic option and then the Tu-160 is possible.

The only way for the Tu-160 to successfully complete her mission would be stay well within Indian air space, protected by multiple assets. But even in that scenario, survivability is in doubt. And staying in Indian airspace limits the range of weapons being air launched.

Will VLO strategic bombers be the only option for India in the next 20 years? I doubt that. Is a strategic bomber the *ONLY* option available to India to strike in the Chinese hinterland? That requires some introspection.
ShauryaT wrote:The only question now is one of logistics and tactics of use doctrine. Flight paths, risks, opportunities, mitigations, etc and maybe one more - dashes the hopes of many who are seeking India to be reliant on Amrika and become subservient - AND I use that word very responsibly.
No contest there. Fully agree, especially on the reliance on Amreeka bit.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Jay »

ShauryaT wrote: Is a LR Bomber the most apt delivery platform for the IAF component of the Triad? Yes.
Why is a LR bomber the most apt platform? I'm talking in context with Cheen, and Pakis and neither of these seem ideal for a LR Bomber. What will an LR Bomber give us that a long range Air-Surface missile or a Surface-Surface missile does not give us in this context? The more I think, the more I see that a LR bomber within IAF or India is a way to tie up our resources and make a nuclear strike more ineffective. What am I missing?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

The IAF should be focusing on tankers, AWACS, improving serviceability of aircraft in service, ordering additional Mk1As, order of intent for the Tejas Mk2, another 2 - 3 more Rafale squadrons, investing in LR supersonic/subsonic cruise missiles, etc, etc, etc.

The Tu-160 will sink the budget, just like the 114 MRFA acquisition.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by basant »

kit wrote:So what was the role of the INS Vikrant in the Indo Pak war ?..was that a bad decision. The problem as always is comparing apples to oranges.

Dedicated bombers come with an entirely different spectrum of capability. Properly used they are force multipliers by an order of magnitude. Looks like the blackjack by itself is an interim solution.
Hawkers sank several vessels and the self-defense of those days were not as threatening as today where many AWACS monitor and ground stations are integrated with central networks. A bomber would be seen for a long distance by fighters, let alone by a state-of-art AWACS. Even in Balakot we did not (apparently) use Sukhois to strike but instead deployed with Mirages for precision strikes. If that is the case with Pak, we can scarcely imagine carpet bombing China AND going to Japan/Taiwan to land.

Just because this acquisition does not make any sense to some of us it doesn't mean that it won't happen. A case in the point in 6 Apaches for $1b.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by kit »

basant wrote:
kit wrote:So what was the role of the INS Vikrant in the Indo Pak war ?..was that a bad decision. The problem as always is comparing apples to oranges.

Dedicated bombers come with an entirely different spectrum of capability. Properly used they are force multipliers by an order of magnitude. Looks like the blackjack by itself is an interim solution.
Hawkers sank several vessels and the self-defense of those days were not as threatening as today where many AWACS monitor and ground stations are integrated with central networks. A bomber would be seen for a long distance by fighters, let alone by a state-of-art AWACS. Even in Balakot we did not (apparently) use Sukhois to strike but instead deployed with Mirages for precision strikes. If that is the case with Pak, we can scarcely imagine carpet bombing China AND going to Japan/Taiwan to land.

Just because this acquisition does not make any sense to some of us it doesn't mean that it won't happen. A case in the point in 6 Apaches for $1b.
Hmm, I think you are not thinking holistically so to say, the bomber or the aircraft carrier by itself does not mean anything, but as a part of a power projection force they are unique capabilities , they give war strategists more options and flexibility . Nothing stands alone in these scenarios .
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by John »

Rakesh wrote:The IAF should be focusing on tankers, AWACS, improving serviceability of aircraft in service, ordering additional Mk1As, order of intent for the Tejas Mk2, another 2 - 3 more Rafale squadrons, investing in LR supersonic/subsonic cruise missiles, etc, etc, etc.

The Tu-160 will sink the budget, just like the 114 MRFA acquisition.
As we see in Ukraine where they haven’t been used much primarily because without proper SEAD these platforms are quite obsolete in modern warfare they will get shot down by even Cold War SAM systems. One thing GW should have taught everyone is you need low RCS platforms to take out enemy targets if enemy has an active air defense system and Fighter ACs.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

See these maps below. While staying focused on a direct flight over Tibet into mainland China, but see the second map :mrgreen:

https://twitter.com/HariRam42245512/sta ... LcXoRYFbiA ---> Range from mainland India. For which target you need a 5,000 km range, strategic bomber to overfly China?

Image

https://twitter.com/HariRam42245512/sta ... LcXoRYFbiA ---> 5,000 km via Myanmar/Thailand

Image
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

basant wrote:Just because this acquisition does not make any sense to some of us it doesn't mean that it won't happen. A case in the point in 6 Apaches for $1b.
Bingo! +108! :)

And if the Kinzhal comes - as per the unsubstantiated rumours on twitter - along with the Tu-160, that will cause a lot of takleef in Dhobi Ghat (Washington).

What a mishmash of capabilities the IN and IAF could end up with.

Rafale C/B/M with SCALP, F-18SH with Harpoon, Tu-160 with Kinzhal, MH-60R with NSM, S-400, P-8I with Harpoon, Akula, MQ9B, etc...

Full & complete sambhar onlee :lol:
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by John »

I don’t believe Tu-160s can fire Kinzhal, Tu-160 would require modifications to fit into its internal launcher.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

John wrote:I don’t believe Tu-160s can fire Kinzhal, Tu-160 would require modifications to fit into its internal launcher.
Russia to arm Tu-160 strategic bombers with hypersonic missiles
https://tass.com/defense/1118255
10 Feb 2020

Two years later....

The Russian army fired advanced Kinzhal missiles at Vinnytsia region on 7 August
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/08/8/7362331/
08 Aug 2022
It was explained that the main carriers of missiles of this type are the MiG-31 fighter as well as Tu-22M3 and Tu-160 bombers.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by John »

Rakesh wrote: The Russian army fired advanced Kinzhal missiles at Vinnytsia region on 7 August
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/08/8/7362331/
08 Aug 2022

It was explained that the main carriers of missiles of this type are the MiG-31 fighter as well as Tu-22M3 and Tu-160 bombers.
We have only seen Mig-31 fire it and I haven’t heard of any tests from either Tu-22m3 or 160. For example Brahmos-A was advertised as being capable of being carried by a lot of air borne platform (Tu-95,Tu-22m3, Mig-29, Su-24 and Su-30). But as of know only platform that can carry it with modifications is Su-30.

Most likely have to foot the bill if we want them to carry Kinzhal.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

John wrote:We have only seen Mig-31 fire it and I haven’t heard of any tests from either Tu-22m3 or 160. For example Brahmos-A was advertised as being capable of being carried by a lot of air borne platform (Tu-95,Tu-22m3, Mig-29, Su-24 and Su-30). But as of know only platform that can carry it with modifications is Su-30.
John, just because we have not seen it...does not mean that the Tu-160 is unable to fire the missile. We do have confirmation that they are working on integration. If Kinzhal can fit on the tiny MiG-31 (in comparison to the Tu-160), then a mating of the missile on the Tu-160 is not insurmountable.

The White Swan is able to carry missiles both internally and externally. So being unable to fit in the internal weapons bay is a moot point. Let us see if the Tu-160 even comes in the first place. I really hope not. The Tu-160 will light up like the White House Christmas tree on any radar.
John wrote:Most likely have to foot the bill if we want them to carry Kinzhal.
Money miraculously appears for phoren maal. No need to worry there. We will gladly pay the bill if required. But I doubt we will have to.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by John »

Rakesh wrote: John, just because we have not seen it...does not mean that the Tu-160 is unable to fire the missile. We do have confirmation that they are working on integration. If Kinzhal can fit on the tiny MiG-31 (in comparison to the Tu-160), then a mating of the missile on the Tu-160 is not insurmountable.

The White Swan is able to carry missiles both internally and externally. So being unable to fit in the internal weapons bay is a moot point. Let us see if the Tu-160 even comes in the first place. I really hope not. The Tu-160 will light up like the White House Christmas tree on any radar.
Tu-160 I don’t believe can carry any weapons externally only fuel tanks IIRC. Adapting weapons for internal hard points is always tricky and throw in rotary launcher will make it challenging. Yea far enough yea I agree in era of stealth and drones throwing money at Cold War relic is kinda pointless. Will be another white elephant like Vikramaditya.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ldev »

Many moons ago on BRF when the first P-8s were being delivered I had posted that India should keep the IL-38s and convert them into missile carriers. The identical aircraft i.e. the TU-95 bomber fiown by the Soviet and now Russian Airforce has been re-engined and fitted with new radar and avionics. India could have done the same for the IL-38s which at 15,000 km has double the range of the TU-160. The Russians have fitted 2 underwing pylons on each wing and each pylon carries 2X KH-101 cruise missiles with a range of 3000 km for a total of 8 cruise missiles per plane. They were maintenance heavy and from what I remember for every 1 flight hour they needed some enormous number of man hours servicing on the ground but the TU-160 is no better.

AFAIK Russia is building some new build TU-160s, the existing fleet is almost all ex-Soviet. The probably want some funding for these new build planes for the Russian airforce and in true Russian fashion decided to show off a shiny but slightly rusted old toy to India hoping to tempt the IAF to throw some money at this cold war era relic. They have had success with this in the past...Vikramaditya & Mig 29Ks....so why not try once more....
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

John wrote:Tu-160 I don’t believe can carry any weapons externally only fuel tanks IIRC. Adapting weapons for internal hard points is always tricky and throw in rotary launcher will make it challenging. Yea far enough yea I agree in era of stealth and drones throwing money at Cold War relic is kinda pointless. Will be another white elephant like Vikramaditya.
It does have the capability to carry external loads (weapons), but it has never been used due to the rotary launcher.

Full production of Russia's Tu-160 bomber restarted after 30 years
https://newatlas.com/military/russias-t ... roduction/
15 Jan 2022
While capable of carrying 45,000 kg (99,208 lb) of gravity nuclear bombs in its two internal bays, the Tu-160 is more properly regarded as a missile carrier because its standard load is a revolving launcher for Raduga Kh-55SM/101/102/555 cruise missiles or 12 AS-16 Kickback short-range nuclear missiles. The Tu-160M will also be able to field the Kh-47M2 Kinzhal hypersonic missile.
"The modernization of the Kazan Aviation Plant played an important role in restoring the production of unique aircraft: the equipment of the shops, the flight test base was updated, the world's largest installation for electron beam welding and vacuum annealing of titanium was put into operation. Today we see significant prospects for the Tu-160 platform: further development will make it possible to use it for new types of weapons, including promising ones."
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

ldev wrote:AFAIK Russia is building some new build TU-160s, the existing fleet is almost all ex-Soviet. The probably want some funding for these new build planes for the Russian airforce and in true Russian fashion decided to show off a shiny but slightly rusted old toy to India hoping to tempt the IAF to throw some money at this cold war era relic. They have had success with this in the past...Vikramaditya & Mig 29Ks....so why not try once more....
Russia flies newbuild Tu-160M bomber
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... 60m-bomber
13 January 2022'
Russia plans to eventually buy about 50 Tu-160M bombers and is upgrading 16 existing Tu-160s to the standard. With the first Tu-160M set to be delivered imminently, series production is to begin by 2023 at a production rate of at least three aircraft a year. This would fit with the order for 10 aircraft in the 2023–27 timeframe.
The Tu-160M upgrade is being rolled out in two phases, with the first Tu-160M1 phase comprising the new K-042K-1 navigation system and ABSU-200-1 autopilot, as well as the removal of some previous systems, such as bomb sighting systems. This Tu-160M1-variant has been operational with the air force since late 2014.

The second Tu-160M2 phase includes the new Novella NV1.70 radar, a digital ‘glass' cockpit, modern communications and anti-jamming equipment, upgraded NK-32 engines (designated NK-32-02), and modern conventional and nuclear weapons.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

White Swan For India? Air Force Ex-Chief Hints At Possible Acquisition
https://eurasiantimes.com/white-swan-fo ... rs-chinas/
09 August 2022
Does India Need Strategic Bombers?

“The role of strategic bombers since the World War II and Cold war has been to cross continents and oceans. As a country, India does not have that kind of ambition. The tactical bombers and aircraft we have are sufficient to hit targets inside the enemy territory with air-to-air refueling if required.

Of course, the strategic bombers are a good show of force, but we already have very long-range missiles to hit targets deep inside hostile neighbors. With the crunch in finances, we need force multipliers, and in my opinion, these strategic bombers are not what we might need.”
“I think the NDAA amendment recently approved by the House of Representatives (yet to be made into law?) is specific to giving a waiver to India in respect of the S400 contract.

In my view, India buying the Russian bombers isn’t going to go down well with the US. Whether India is thinking of buying Russian bombers, and if it does, whether the US will refrain from invoking CAATSA is a matter of speculation. I would like to believe that there’s no realistic possibility of India going ahead with any such purchase,” said Amit Cowshish, former Financial Advisor (Acquisition), Ministry of Defense.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by asbchakri »

Breaking News !!! US to lease 6 B-2 Spirit to India as part of Make India Great program (Amereekan version of Atmanirbhar).

Celebrating it with my own Spirit (Balvenie 12) :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

asbchakri wrote:Breaking News !!! US to lease 6 B-2 Spirit to India as part of Make India Great program (Amereekan version of Atmanirbhar).

Celebrating it with my own Spirit (Balvenie 12) :mrgreen:
I would have preferred the B-21 Raider :lol:
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by asbchakri »

Don't we all. :lol:
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

The external stores of the Tu-160 were deactivated due to one of the arms limitation treaties. Same for the B1.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:@[u
But remove the strategic bomber (basically the Tu-160) out of the land strike equation and the other area of operation is the open sea. This is where the Tu-160 will be employed IMVHO. A PLAN carrier battle group will have a robust AD network, but it will not be similar to the PLAGF/PLAAF AD network in Tibet. There will be areas to exploit and this is where the Tu-160 could be employed.
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This sirji, this! I've been screaming from rooftops for donkey years trying to get this message across. The survivability of a blackjack carrying fire and forget brahmos type longer ranged variants might not be assured, but nor is it zero. And it's far cheaper than any other deterrent to PLAN adventures in the IOR.

AND it's not just a PLAN carrier that's under threat. All their new cruisers and destroyers will be under direct threat. Any capital ship sunk will result in loss of men and money that is not close to the loss of a bomber. Not to mention loss of face.

Each of these birds is potentially capable of carrying 12 brahmos or 30 nirbhay types. Get 6 of them in the air and you'll utterly saturate air defences.

The key lies in the time to target and firepower such a plane can bring to bear. Absolutely unmatched. You're looking at making the IOR totally inhospitable for plan assets in a way that no single soopah carrier or boomer can do.

You'll need to dedicate 4 sqds of mki and a bunch of tankers to come anywhere close to this kind of fire power.

And it's not just sea assets that become targets, think of land targets in the SCS as well. Hainan could be a juicy one for a carefully planned raid from unexpected routes supported by a tanker or two.

A billion or so $s spent for a flight of 6 swans is a pittance for such a platform compared to anything else. Unless the US is willing to supply some B1s.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by John »

Pratyush wrote:The external stores of the Tu-160 were deactivated due to one of the arms limitation treaties. Same for the B1.
IIRC other way around Tu-160 was never designed to have external weapons where as B-1 was designed to carry it and as part of treaty B-1b hard points where welded over. That’s what I remember from old aviation journals I can check some time to confirm.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

John,

Will be good to have confirmation. If you can scan through those.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by kit »

@Rakesh, the blackjack is still relevant over the landmass NE frontier, dynamics of war means AD gaps will open up, there are so many "ways" this can happen. :mrgreen: . I for one am pretty sure IAF has gamed assault options over Tibet and alsewhere !!. One more AC group and a dedicated bomber squadron can give a lot of flexibility and new options to open new "frontiers" in any conflict scenario
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

"Times Now": IAF chief's Greece visit to be a game changer
https://directus.gr/times-now-iaf-chief ... e-changer/
11 August 2022

The likely visit of Air Chief Marshal VRChaudhari to Greece is being seen as a major game-changer, certainly for the Indian Air Force (IAF), but also in terms of strategic messaging. For, Greece, a part of the United States of America-led North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), can be of great tactical help to the IAF as its air force flies not just the Rafale that India has acquired from France, but also the F-16 C/D, which the Pakistan Air Force has.

"The Hellenic Air Force has acquired both planes and will have a clear idea of ​​the operational aspects of a Rafale vs F16 C/D matchup," said high-level sources. Currently, the F16C/D is the best fighter Pakistan has. It has the F16A/B, but it belongs to a previous generation. So, the Greeks, having both the Rafale and the F16C/D will have a clear and also impartial view as far as the performances of both planes are concerned and how they compare with each other operationally. This will help the IAF in dealing with the Pakistan Air Force, if necessary. F16C/Ds in the future.

With both countries having the Rafale, it will be an opportunity to work together and share information on the fighter. At the moment, apart from France and India, there are only about half a dozen countries that fly the Rafale. The Greeks have considerable experience with the Rafale. The strategic aspect of the visit comes from the fact that the Greeks have a difficult relationship with Turkey, also a NATO country. This is a problem that has persisted for many years. While India and Turkey have diplomatic and also economic ties, Ankara's military aid to Islamabad has caused considerable concern.

Turkey is making four MILGEM-class heavy corvettes for the Pakistan Navy. Three corvettes, called Babur-class by Pakistan are in varying states of readiness, and one has joined the fleet. Turkey has also sold PNS Moawin, a fleet tanker to the Pakistan Navy and repaired PNS Alamgir, a guided-missile frigate, and therefore, a frontline warship. It had problems with its sonar, fire control systems and radar. Besides, PNS Alamgir also participated in a high-profile Turkish naval exercise—Dogu Akdeniz—with the Turks in the Mediterranean Sea in November last year. Pakistan and Turkey have frequent consultations about their air force assets—both have F16s.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ShauryaT »

The primary mission profile of the blackjack will be the strategic mission. The primary route for this is most likely over waters supported by tankers and escorts to maximize success of mission. The risk:return ratio is highly skewed in favor of returns for such a mission and hence poses a credible threat. All other use cases are secondary (for purposes of acquisition/budget) and subject to its own risk:return evaluation.

The triad exists for purposes of redundancy and no serious war planner will take this option off the table and NOT have the best air asset available to India. I would even call for the fourth type of asset - space as not off the table. It is going to happen.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Well if the Tu-160 does come, she will definitely serve one purpose - anger the American Govt. How that anger will be translated into what actionable measures remains to be seen. Not that India should give it much weightage, but the GOI will take that into account. Reportedly, the PMO is also pushing for this acquisition.

After the S-400 brouhaha and all the empty threats that the US did not follow through on, the GOI is confident with her multi-polar alignment strategy. The slug fest conflict between Russia and Ukraine has not slowed down military cooperation between India & Russia, despite the doomsday scenarios on BRF - about Russia - in the initial stages of the conflict.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

Any official news, all this is looking like kite flying to me.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote:What a mishmash of capabilities the IN and IAF could end up with.

Rafale C/B/M with SCALP, F-18SH with Harpoon, Tu-160 with Kinzhal, MH-60R with NSM, S-400, P-8I with Harpoon, Akula, MQ9B, etc...

Full & complete sambhar onlee :lol:
:rotfl:

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... F8b2Ydlptg ---> India is continuing "side discussions" about getting the F-35 stealth fighter, reports top British defence publication.
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