Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

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ramana
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

Pratyush , N^3 has forgotten more than we learn in that field. I don't disagree with him
Even in jest, he conveys deep learning.
Anyway, it's such remarks that made him leave.

He is the biggest supporter of Tejas since it was conceptualized.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

Rakesh wrote:Still on course with the same plan :roll:

Any additional Tejas Mk1/Mk1A orders will take three years for delivery. Those 21 MiG-29s are also going to take three years. The only solution available right now (within a year or even six months if the IAF is seriously interested) are those 11+ Qatari Mirage 2000s. The UAE ones are still a few years off, unless the UAE is a generous mood and hands them all over right away. I doubt that.

Indian Air Force to retire all squadrons of MiG-21 by 2025
https://english.newstracklive.com/news/ ... 230-1.html
29 July 2022
Let us see after 75th Independence Day.
So far IAF has no responsibility except to be a sideshow.
And has the luxury of sniping at GOI, IA, and even IN.
Once Air Defence Command is made its IAF's primary responsibility to defend the air space.
All this hankering for toys will not do when you are responsible.
Diplomacy along with proper procurement will show the way.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:Is a loss of confidence in the chief a valid reason for firing?

I mean, when people lose confidence in a government, it gets voted out. So why can't the service chiefs be fired, if the government of the day has lost confidence in them.

The statement from the PM is a textbook example of a loss of confidence in the brass.
Admiral Devendra Kumar Joshi resigned from his post as Chief of Naval Staff, after a series of accidents in the Indian Navy. While he was not directly responsible for any of the accidents, he was a hard taskmaster and was hardest on himself. He lived up to his own standards. Leadership starts from the top.

While it is impossible to retire all four remaining MiG-21 squadrons at this very instant, the Govt can order another four Mk1A squadrons. It is not going to be the IAF's doom, if another four more Mk1A squadrons are acquired. But Air HQ is focused solely on 114 MRFA. It is their golden toy that they have a laser vision focus on.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Anujan »

ramana wrote:We asked Enqyoob what does Mig-21 bring to a fight that Tejas does not?

Let's see.
IIRC, Mig-21 is also faster to get into the air, the system checks are faster. I am not sure if Tejas beats it or not. That was one of the reasons it excelled as a point defense interceptor.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Anujan wrote:IIRC, Mig-21 is also faster to get into the air, the system checks are faster. I am not sure if Tejas beats it or not. That was one of the reasons it excelled as a point defense interceptor.
I believe the MiG-21 still holds that record.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by fanne »

Mig 21 is a formidable aircraft even today, just proven a few years ago when it shot down F-16 and spoiled a squadron-size ground attack. What more can you ask for? It is risky to fly (but that is not an issue, all aircraft are), the issue is it's age, maintenance etc. The Mongols are harder to fly and older (and nonupgraded). As long as you fly Mig 21 bs, you will need the 2-seat trainers.

LCA may not be as good as an interceptor as Mig 21 (it will always lack in speed), it will more than make it up by

1) Safer to fly
2) More availability
3) Better Situational awareness
4) More formidable BVR and longer radar, longer BVR missile
5) Slightly Better turning performance and WVR missiles
6) A humongous jump in A/G capability
7) Better range
8] More network-centric capability (perhaps cued by other fighter/awacs that are already in air and shoot its BVR or vice versa)....

I am surprised that Srinagar's MiG-21s are the first to be retired. We need fast interceptor there. Hush Kit interview says that LCA is out the gate in a jiffy, that means it is good.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

The Mk1A will be more than a worthy replacement to No 51 Squadron's MiG-21 Bisons. It was always a dream of many to see that become a reality and it is now happening. That is a very good move.

Dot Mk1A squadrons all along the Western Front. She is more than a capable match for anything that the PAF can bring into battle. This is why four Mk1A squadrons are not enough.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

fanne wrote:Mig 21 is a formidable aircraft even today, just proven a few years ago when it shot down F-16 and spoiled a squadron-size ground attack. What more can you ask for?

....

I am surprised that Srinagar's MiG-21s are the first to be retired. We need fast interceptor there. Hush Kit interview says that LCA is out the gate in a jiffy, that means it is good.
Tail wags the dog hainji!!!

One tailors oneS tactics to the weapons available.

You are prepared to lose pilots to the mirage of the effectiveness of the MiG-21 as a ORP platform?

good grief!!!
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by nachiket »

All of the supposed advantages of the Mig-21 are moot in the face of the risk it poses to the precious lives of our young fighter pilots. The aircraft had its day and then some. Time to let it go.

Also all the Mach 2 capability aside I am sure even WingCo Abhinandan would have preferred to be in an aircraft with a much better radar, missiles, EW capability, FBW, man-machine interface and carefree handling even if he had to give up a bit on the speed.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by skumar »

Rakesh wrote:The Mk1A will be more than a worthy replacement to No 51 Squadron's MiG-21 Bisons. It was always a dream of many to see that become a reality and it is now happening. That is a very good move.

Dot Mk1A squadrons all along the Western Front. She is more than a capable match for anything that the PAF can bring into battle. This is why four Mk1A squadrons are not enough.
+1
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by KSingh »

Rakesh wrote:Still on course with the same plan :roll:

Any additional Tejas Mk1/Mk1A orders will take three years for delivery. Those 21 MiG-29s are also going to take three years. The only solution available right now (within a year or even six months if the IAF is seriously interested) are those 11+ Qatari Mirage 2000s. The UAE ones are still a few years off, unless the UAE is a generous mood and hands them all over right away. I doubt that.

Indian Air Force to retire all squadrons of MiG-21 by 2025
https://english.newstracklive.com/news/ ... 230-1.html
29 July 2022
Didn’t IAF give up on the 21 MiG-29 plan after they inspected the (used) airframes?

Either way IAF is in no rush IF the IAF was serious about replacing the MiGs they wouldn’t keep harping on about pipedreams of 114 MRFA which are either not coming or aren’t coming anytime soon. They’d order 2-3 additional Rafale SQNs and 2-3 more LCA MK1A so HAL can increase to 24/year
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

Rupak wrote a few tweets on Mig 21.

Bottom line is only 3 squadrons of Bison with IAF. Plus trainers. No upgrade here.

https://twitter.com/RupakChatto/status/ ... ZrjIw&s=19
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by bala »

IAF's four existing MiG-21 squadrons to be grounded by 2025, starting this September
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 220311.cms

// some additional details on Mig-21
The four existing squadrons of the old single-engine MiG-21s, inducted by the IAF in 1963 and plagued by an alarmingly high crash rate in later years. The old single-engine MiG-21s, which were the first truly supersonic fighters to be inducted by the IAF in 1963 but have been plagued by an alarmingly high crash rate in later years, will finally be retired by 2025. The phasing out of delta-wing MiG-21s, which lack modern systems with built-in safety mechanisms, has been repeatedly deferred due to the depleting number of IAF fighter squadrons and the huge delays in induction of new fighters, especially the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft. The highly-unforgiving and ageing MiG-21s, along with spotty maintenance, poor quality control of spares and inadequate training, constitute a deadly mix. On Thursday evening, Wing Commander M Rana (38) and Flight Lieutenant Advitiya Bal (26) were killed when their twin-seat MiG-21 Type 69 trainer crashed during a night sortie in the Barmer district of Rajasthan. At least six MiG-21s have crashed since January last year, in which five pilots have been killed.

Over 400 of the 872 MiG-21s progressively inducted since the 1960s have been lost in accidents since 1971-72, killing over 200 pilots and 50 civilians on the ground. Even before the crash on Thursday, the IAF had drawn up the phase-out plan for the around 70 MiG-21 `Bisons’ and trainers still in its combat fleet. The Srinagar-based 51 Sword Arms’ Squadron will be the first to be “number-plated” in September this year, an IAF official said. The other three MiG-21 squadrons at Uttarlai, Suratgarh and Nal in Rajasthan will subsequently be retired over the next three years. The 51 Squadron, incidentally, had played a major role in thwarting Pakistan Air Force’s retaliation a day after the IAF’s pre-dawn air strikes on the Jaish-e-Mohammed facility at Balakot on February 26, 2019.

Group Captain Abhinandan Varthaman, then a Wing Commander, was awarded a Vir Chakra for shooting down a F-16, while his MiG-21 also went down during the aerial skirmish on that day. “The Soviet-era MiG-21s played a stellar role in air operations as high-altitude supersonic interceptors, especially during the 1965 and 1971 wars. But they are long past their retirement date. However, what can the IAF do without getting their replacements?” a senior officer said. The IAF is grappling with just 32-33 fighter squadrons (each with 16-18 jets) at present when at least 42 are needed to face the threat from China and Pakistan. The 36 new omni-role Rafale fighters, inducted under the Rs 59,000 crore deal with France, are several times more capable than the MiG-21s. But sheer numbers also matter, and this is where the Tejas will have to step in with a much higher production rate. Less than 30 of the 123 Tejas jets ordered from Hindustan Aeronautics, at an overall cost of Rs 55,700 crore, have been delivered till now.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by S_Madhukar »

Our jernails will probably drop AMCA too because it doesn’t go to Mach 2+ Or may be revive and buy Foxbat again … Mig31 as it is called aptly +10 after mig21!! Did they name it so to hook the IAF?!
A sardarji taxiwalla a few years ago still fondly remembered his Padmini and Ambassador, I was like can you maintain the parts mate? Our jernails are same ignorant of what’s out there and reminiscing. Mainly they don’t seem to have the courage and devil may care attitude that a fighter jock is expected. The whole system called defence seems more about surrender when it should be more about aggression
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by nachiket »

bala wrote:IAF's four existing MiG-21 squadrons to be grounded by 2025, starting this September
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 220311.cms

// some additional details on Mig-21
.... But sheer numbers also matter, and this is where the Tejas will have to step in with a much higher production rate. Less than 30 of the 123 Tejas jets ordered from Hindustan Aeronautics, at an overall cost of Rs 55,700 crore, have been delivered till now.
This is straight up gaslighting now. Making it appear as if an order for 123 Tejas was given long time ago but HAL delivered only 30. The order for 83 Mk1A's was only given last year. Even Dassault took 36 months to make the first delivery of the Rafale after the order was signed. Nobody had stopped the IAF from ordering more Tejas Mk1's years ago instead of just 2 squadrons. But it wasn't good enough for them even to replace a fighter that has become a death trap for its pilots. This is Rajat Pandit of course so one should not expect anything better.
“The Soviet-era MiG-21s played a stellar role in air operations as high-altitude supersonic interceptors, especially during the 1965 and 1971 wars. But they are long past their retirement date. However, what can the IAF do without getting their replacements?” a senior officer said.
Perhaps the IAF should ponder over their own disastrous decision-making and how they can do better in the future. A good first step would be to at least accept that they screwed up but we know there is a fat chance of that ever happening.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by nachiket »

One reason the services can get away with misleading statements like these is because we do not have journalists who will challenge them on the nonsense. Even Shiv Aroor in his interview did not ask counter questions to the former ACM about why the IAF did not order enough Tejas Mk1's to replace all the Bisons if the number crunch is so bad.

I swear to god that if there is a ground war tomorrow, some senior officer will tell the journalists that we suffered because of the very limited numbers of Apache Gunships available because the govt. did not let them buy more. And the credulous journalists will print it verbatim further adding their own finger-pointing about how the services are shortchanged by the govt. No one will challenge that officer and ask why no large orders for the LCH were ever given despite the helo being ready for ages.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

Telling indictment of IAF higher command.

Over 400 of the 872 MiG-21s progressively inducted since the 1960s have been lost in accidents since 1971-72, killing over 200 pilots and 50 civilians on the ground
Coming to last crash, it was the Type 69 two seat trainer that was never upgraded.

About 10 to 12 survive.
We should analyze the 400 crashes and see how many ae the trainers?

In last 6 crashes in 2021 and 2022 I believe 2 are Trainers. And in Rajasthan.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by nachiket »

ramana wrote: In last 6 crashes in 2021 and 2022 I believe 2 are Trainers. And in Rajasthan.
That last bit is because aside from 51 sq which is in Srinagar the remaining three are all based in Rajasthan at forward air bases.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by SSridhar »

By starving the Tejas of orders and perforce continuing with Mig-21s, the IAF High Command has been playing with fire to get their much desired foreign MMRCA/MRFA. It is a game plan that went awry in this case. The conspicuous omission of Tejas Mk 2 in the very first speech of the incumbent Air Chief raised suspicion immediately but some gave him the benefit of doubt. The IAF High Command, past and present, must bear full responsibility.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Raja »

How does the relationship between the central govt and the brass work? Can't the govt force the brass to toe it's line? Are we sure that the brass doesn't have a legitimate reason for their actions? It's hard to accept that everyone is corrupted going back decades.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ldev »

Two single engine lightweight, Mach 2 interceptors introduced during the Cold War by the US and the USSR. The F-104 Starfighter prompted the USSR to quickly design the Mig 21. Both had similar thin and long fuselages, small trapezoidal wings for the Starfighter, small delta wings for the Mig 21, both sets of wings set back halfway down the fuselage, both designs resulting in high wing loading and high take off and landing speeds and tricky handling for novice pilots. The only difference was that the Starfighter had significantly more fuel and thereby endurance and range vs the Mig 21.

The other similarity is the crash record of the Starfighter in virtually every airforce that operated it and the crash record of the Mig 21 in the Indian Air Force e.g. in the West German Airforce of the 916 Starfighters it acquired, 292 crashed, so much so that it was referred to as the "widowmaker". There are similar crash records where somewhere from 30% to 46% of all Starfighters inducted in various airforces crashed ~2500 Starfighters produced in all. In the Indian Airforce the Mig 21 has a similar record. But the Indian Air Force had only about ~900 Mig 21s in all vs >10,000 produced by the USSR. Is there a similarly high percentage of crashes for Mig 21s in the Soviet Air Force and other East Bloc airforces that operated the Mig 21? Or is the data just not available given their penchant for secrecy.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by nachiket »

The past crash record of the Mig-21 is irrelevant. The issue is the aircraft being flown way past its use by date despite an indigenous alternative being available. Even if the past record was stellar the fact does not change that the aircraft is clearly unsafe right now.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Kanoji »

Raja wrote:How does the relationship between the central govt and the brass work? Can't the govt force the brass to toe it's line? Are we sure that the brass doesn't have a legitimate reason for their actions? It's hard to accept that everyone is corrupted going back decades.
Thanks for articulating what has been going on in my mind also for a long time.

Our tax payers foot the bill for all the defence forces. We provide the young men and women and the top notch training facilities to train them. Cant the government knock some sense into the people at air headquarters that they are not operating in a vaccum? Can they not force air headquarters to buy the Tejas and progressively hone its capabilities to make it even better. It is already a more capable aircraft compared to many of the fighters in the IAF stable.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Nihat »

Even I'm uncertain on how this works. Modi ji did step in to finalize 36 rafale. Surely he can step in again to cut down on MRFA, order additional rafale and compel the IAF to order LCA in greater numbers.

Why is the government subservient to the IAF and not the other way round
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

ramana wrote:Pratyush , N^3 has forgotten more than we learn in that field. I don't disagree with him
Even in jest, he conveys deep learning.
Anyway, it's such remarks that made him leave.

He is the biggest supporter of Tejas since it was conceptualized.
I am not questioning him. I am questioning the logic of the IAF. Which keeps the mig 21 in service in the face of the availability of Tejas.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by SSridhar »

I am speculating. Such decisions are not taken by the ACM alone. There is a group of senior IAF command which is drawing up the plans. The ACM himself would have been part of earlier such committees. One can be pretty sure that expectations about foreign MRFA would have been built at lower levels as well, as discussions would have taken place. There is therefore an institutional backing to the MMRCA/MRFA proposals, which no government can simply ride roughshod over. After all, the warriors put their lives on the block in defence of the land and their opinion cannot be dismissed easily. A naval veteran I was talking to said that after all the ACM is the professional entrusted with the responsibility to defend the country and what would others know about such issues. That's why governments tread ever so carefully in such matters. That is why these incidents directly reflect back on the top brass. We don't know how Parikkar pushed Tejas into IAF's reckoning and whether RS can duplicate that process for more of the same.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

I think that it was Nirmala Sitaraman who told the top brass to come to her with solutions and not problems.

Following one of the presentations extolling the virtues of Rafales and lamenting the declining squadron strength. Some time in 2018. Once the brass saw that the minister would not budge. They came back with a plan to procure the Mk1A.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

I have a feeling that post the comment by th PM about the import addiction of the Indian forces. The political brass is having behind the scenes conversation with the uniformed brass. About the value of building strength through enhancement domestic industrial capacity.

The results should be becoming visible in the next few months.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by arunsrinivasan »

IMHO I think too much blame is laid on IAF & not enough on the bean counters. Most of the delay in development can be explained by not releasing enough funds in time & when released it is too little. This also extends to contract negotiations & order sizes. Almost every order for indigenous weapons comes after protracted negotiations & order quantities which dont justify the development costs.

If we need to get out of this log jam I think the Modi government especially the MoD & MoF has to take the lead & say, if you want to order indigenous equipment, we will release addition funds. There is a clear multiplier effect on the local economy & tax revenues by ordering Indigenous equipment. Modi government has realised the benefit of Atmanirbhar Bharat esp with respect to weapons, but it needs to take another big step in re-thinking how funds are released, how fast & in ensure order sizes are large enough to justify development costs & fast delivery.

No point beating up the IAF the change has to come from the political leadership, to force the finance ministry & defence ministry to change the way they take these decisions.

We need leadership of the kind Manohar Parrkar showed. Else we will keep doing this rona dhona for the foreseeable future.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

^^Are you telling me that if the IAF said LCA and nothing else and had a hissy fit if they did not get their LCA then the bean counters would have a choice?


Is the paralysis in common sense thinking about funds?
Was the HTT40 fiasco about funds?
Was the induction of proper helmets scopes bPJs about funds?
Was the lack of initiative to work with the ARDE / OFB on small arms about funds?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by arunsrinivasan »

Sachin Sir, did I say IAF is not at fault? IMHO all stakeholders are at fault to varying degrees. My only objective is to see if there is a way to break this vicious cycle. Hence proposed a solution based on my understanding as an aam abdul.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by YashG »

Nihat wrote:Even I'm uncertain on how this works. Modi ji did step in to finalize 36 rafale. Surely he can step in again to cut down on MRFA, order additional rafale and compel the IAF to order LCA in greater numbers.

Why is the government subservient to the IAF and not the other way round
I dont think modi cannot get IAF to order more LCAs if he really made it his no.1 priority. He has all the power to bend all the brass to his wish. Irony is he is too good a political leader to make this his no.1 priority; no.4 maybe not no.1. Parrikar wasnt as good a political leader and thats why had national defence probably on his no.1 priority.

It probably comes down to how do u get not so good political leader to actually rule us, who will knowing fully well that LCAs, LCHs dont vote but will still make their induction their priority.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by KSingh »

Kanoji wrote:
Raja wrote:How does the relationship between the central govt and the brass work? Can't the govt force the brass to toe it's line? Are we sure that the brass doesn't have a legitimate reason for their actions? It's hard to accept that everyone is corrupted going back decades.
Thanks for articulating what has been going on in my mind also for a long time.

Our tax payers foot the bill for all the defence forces. We provide the young men and women and the top notch training facilities to train them. Cant the government knock some sense into the people at air headquarters that they are not operating in a vaccum? Can they not force air headquarters to buy the Tejas and progressively hone its capabilities to make it even better. It is already a more capable aircraft compared to many of the fighters in the IAF stable.
Do we not remember the last controversy over the PMO stepping in in favour of Rafale GTG? In fact every time this PM takes decisive action there is almost always organised upheaval, if you start harming the import lobby there will be even more fuel on the fire.

GoI seems to be ‘leaving it to the forces’ and letting the procedural efforts (AON, RFI, RFP etc) play out so they have no direct culpability for the situation and don’t stoke controversy

It’s absolutely moral cowardice on the part of the PM and his ministers charged by 100s of millions of voters with one of the largest political mandates in Indian democratic history but it is what it is.


Sadly it’s easier to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission- they’d rather tweet ‘thoughts and prayers’ every time a brave life is lost in this preventable way than to risk ANY political capital and do what needs to be done.

Why Modi stopped at 36 Rafale I will never know, it’s abundantly clear that deal came with the clause for 2 additional SQNs, that’s what all the infra is made for in india but after facing the campaign led by INC they’ve developed an allergy to Rafale and are I guess hoping when it’s declared winner of MRFA it will be on the IAF to justify not GOI.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by KSingh »

arunsrinivasan wrote:IMHO I think too much blame is laid on IAF & not enough on the bean counters. Most of the delay in development can be explained by not releasing enough funds in time & when released it is too little. This also extends to contract negotiations & order sizes. Almost every order for indigenous weapons comes after protracted negotiations & order quantities which dont justify the development costs.

If we need to get out of this log jam I think the Modi government especially the MoD & MoF has to take the lead & say, if you want to order indigenous equipment, we will release addition funds. There is a clear multiplier effect on the local economy & tax revenues by ordering Indigenous equipment. Modi government has realised the benefit of Atmanirbhar Bharat esp with respect to weapons, but it needs to take another big step in re-thinking how funds are released, how fast & in ensure order sizes are large enough to justify development costs & fast delivery.

No point beating up the IAF the change has to come from the political leadership, to force the finance ministry & defence ministry to change the way they take these decisions.

We need leadership of the kind Manohar Parrkar showed. Else we will keep doing this rona dhona for the foreseeable future.
Obviously everyone has a role to play in this disaster but IAF takes the lion’s share

Who is forcing them to fixate on 100+ MRFA for the past 20++ years? Who told them to keep moving goalposts for LCA?


HTT-40, LUH, LCH etc etc all not ordered because of a lack of funds? Does IAF not have control over their own CAPEX? What is the defence budget for if not giving financial provisions to the armed forces? It isn’t some babu in Fin Min who issues RFIs to foreign OEMs for every requirement

The biggest blame GOI has is for being in power for 8 years now and still not being able to get their agencies (including armed forces) in line. How is it 2022 and they are still talking about 100+ MMRCA as the solution to the MiG-21 mess whilst at the same time cutting their commitments to LCA MK.2? GoI clearly has not been hanging their atmannirbharat message enough behind closed doors.


And lastly isn’t this the exact sort of thing a CDS should be managing? GoI’s complete disinterest in appointing a replacement shows that the armed forces’ sway is too much inside Delhi and they are exerting their own influence.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

arunsrinivasan wrote:Sachin Sir, did I say IAF is not at fault? IMHO all stakeholders are at fault to varying degrees. My only objective is to see if there is a way to break this vicious cycle. Hence proposed a solution based on my understanding as an aam abdul.
Sorry mate,
Apologies if I came across as harsh.
What you say is correct but that is not the diagnosis for this particular problem.
Our procurement process at the moment is like the human body suffering from multiple organ failure which is like different parts of the process all working towards failure.

Funds by babus is one organ that fails in the finely balanced ballet of defence as an instrument of the strategic goals of a nation in this case India.

In this case it is brain failure leading to brain farts!!!
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by YashG »

import lobby maybe strong, our top brass maybe import pasand but none of these are a match for modi’s determination to do something he is really fixated on. no amount of INC naarebaji, media allegations can stop him from doing what he wants to do. The day he wants to, he will finish this tamasha of import lobby. Just that day hasnt come yet.

U can blame iaf but their import pasand behavior is known, u can only hope that goi will set things in order and not wait.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by KSingh »

nachiket wrote:
bala wrote:IAF's four existing MiG-21 squadrons to be grounded by 2025, starting this September
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 220311.cms

// some additional details on Mig-21


This is straight up gaslighting now. Making it appear as if an order for 123 Tejas was given long time ago but HAL delivered only 30. The order for 83 Mk1A's was only given last year. Even Dassault took 36 months to make the first delivery of the Rafale after the order was signed. Nobody had stopped the IAF from ordering more Tejas Mk1's years ago instead of just 2 squadrons. But it wasn't good enough for them even to replace a fighter that has become a death trap for its pilots. This is Rajat Pandit of course so one should not expect anything better.
.
That is beyond disgusting


Media and IAF already with knives out for LCA and with their sales pitch for MMRCA being rolled out. No wonder IDDM products are treated with contempt all around the world when you have this toxic treatment at home
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by bala »

This relationship of MOD-IAF-HAL requires further closer inspection. HAL is the producer/creator of goods and IAF is the consumer. MOD is the financier/vision/goals entity. HAL-IAF, as in control theory, are a close knit system, whereby the consumer provides requirements/feedback and the producer is finely tuning the product based on feedback and requirements. MOD is the man in the middle and has to enable the producer/consumer close cooperation and occassionally act as WD-40 liquid to ease the glitches. The media in India is beholden to outside interests and they will never provide anything worthwhile for the people of India. Their interests are the interest of their paymasters. MOD-IAF-HAL combo need to do their prescribed duties diligently for progress of the nation. IAF needs to think beyond the fighter-jockey duties since they are produced from the nation. Strengthening the nation is beyond fighting skills, it is about a strong ecosystem that can sustain all possible things for the nation. MOD has to have vision, goals and finance them appropriately. HAL has to work on R&D, incremental improvement and efficient manufacture. We can pick on any one but the whole troika needs to be collectively responsible. A blame game from one not only affects them, it affects others. Instead of running to media, they ought to sort things in a conducive atmosphere amongst themselves. I don't understand the ACM whining to the media about fighter acquisition, instead he should be in a closed-door meeting with MOD on the topic. Similarly HAL should be asking MOD for funds and proper purchase-orders in order to make the supply of aircrafts smooth and normal.

I blame MOD and their bosses Defence Secretary/Production Secretary and of course the politico in charge. There are things that have to be addressed in a mature fashion and not let the media dictate terms/angles.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by KSingh »

bala wrote:This relationship of MOD-IAF-HAL requires further closer inspection. HAL is the producer/creator of goods and IAF is the consumer. MOD is the financier/vision/goals entity. HAL-IAF, as in control theory, are a close knit system, whereby the consumer provides requirements/feedback and the producer is finely tuning the product based on feedback and requirements. MOD is the man in the middle and has to enable the producer/consumer close cooperation and occassionally act as WD-40 liquid to ease the glitches. The media in India is beholden to outside interests and they will never provide anything worthwhile for the people of India. Their interests are the interest of their paymasters. MOD-IAF-HAL combo need to do their prescribed duties diligently for progress of the nation. IAF needs to think beyond the fighter-jockey duties since they are produced from the nation. Strengthening the nation is beyond fighting skills, it is about a strong ecosystem that can sustain all possible things for the nation. MOD has to have vision, goals and finance them appropriately. HAL has to work on R&D, incremental improvement and efficient manufacture. We can pick on any one but the whole troika needs to be collectively responsible. A blame game from one not only affects them, it affects others. Instead of running to media, they ought to sort things in a conducive atmosphere amongst themselves. I don't understand the ACM whining to the media about fighter acquisition, instead he should be in a closed-door meeting with MOD on the topic. Similarly HAL should be asking MOD for funds and proper purchase-orders in order to make the supply of aircrafts smooth and normal.

I blame MOD and their bosses Defence Secretary/Production Secretary and of course the politico in charge. There are things that have to be addressed in a mature fashion and not let the media dictate terms/angles.
I have no interest in HAL or personal links to it, I have expressed my disappointment in them when they’ve not met their obligations but let’s call a spade a spade. IAF is the entity most responsible for this disaster and is also the one showing itself least responsive to changing times.


HAL has long since ditched their standard DPSU do nothing attitude. Their efforts with LUH, LCH, ALH (NUH) and HTT-40 prove as much.


LUH has been validated in record time for an Indian aerospace project and has had the most seamless path from conception to IOC, any tweaks thrown up during trails were very quickly incorporated and validated.

LCH similar story as above maybe with a few more hurdles along the way especially as the services have failed to select customer nominated equipment such as ATGMs and then used this as an excuse to not order this type. We all know the ridiculousness of this story wherein HAL had to commence production and outfitting without a contract for 5 years.

HTT-40- if it was up to IAF they’d have ordered >150 PC-7s and HTT-40 would never have even taken its first flight


ALH-NUH is a similar story. IN wanted Panther all along and has been obstructionist with the ALH based on preconceived notions they developed based on the N-ALH MK.1 prototype they tested 20+ years ago. HAL has had to fight tooth and nail just to be considered as a Chetak replacement. They’ve developed multiple solutions to meet the stowed dimensions requirements up to this year where they’ve paid for the testing of 2 segment blade folding on their own ALH test bed.


IAF’s attitude today is the same as it was in 2000; give us 100+++ MRCA/MMRCA/MRFA. Do we see any difference in how IAF plans for and supports industry? They still keep ADA/HAL at arms length and expect everything from day 1 like they are dealing with matured designs from Boeing or Dassualt.

GoI and MoD are allowing this farce to play out so they are just as culpable IMO. It just blows my mind that PMO launched an official policy of atmannir Bharat but has followed through so poorly. They have transformed the functionings of almost all ministries- Railways today is nothing like they were in 2014 but MoD is somehow impervious to such changes?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ldev »

nachiket wrote:The past crash record of the Mig-21 is irrelevant. The issue is the aircraft being flown way past its use by date despite an indigenous alternative being available. Even if the past record was stellar the fact does not change that the aircraft is clearly unsafe right now.
As far as the Mig 21 being way past it's use by date is concerned, there is no doubt I agree. As far as indigenous alternatives being available, I think the Mk1A has the offensive and defensive aids i.e. AESA radar, SPJ, BVR and WVR missiles etc. in being a viable alternative as and when it is goes into production. As far as the Mk1 is concerned, I would say that at the minimum it needs a self protection jammer before it can be used an interceptor, specially because it does not have the speed to go cold when the MAW goes off. Has a SPJ been integrated as of now in either of the 2 squadrons that are flying the Mk1? I have not been following the LCA closely so I do not know. Because if the day after Balakot taught any lessons I would say that the SAP-518s on the SU-30MKIs were helpful. Since it has the ELTA-2032 radar the logical SPJ will be the ELTA-8222 pod......and eventually when the MK1s get retrofitted with the Uttam radar, then the logical SPJ will be DRDO's SPJ.
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