Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2931
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Vivek K »

ArjunPandit wrote:
sankum wrote:Sir, for $43m per Mirage 2000 upgrade cost they can buy a Tejas mk1a with 45 year life.
true only if you can get it by end of this week. War is not very far. IAF needs plans asap. More power to tejas but these deals are good with existing bird types..
Any reason for this conclusion? Or are we raising a bogey to push something?

IAF probably wants these M2Ks for spares. Any that could fly would have to be in UPG condition ($40M+ per aircraft). The expectation that these will be available at the end of this week seems un realistic - what leads to this conclusion Arjun ji?
sohamn
BRFite
Posts: 461
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 12:56
Location: the Queen of the Angels of Porziuncola
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by sohamn »

fanne wrote:i am totally confused -
I searched the 4 vedas and the Indian constitution and French one, along with musing from judiciary - None are forbidding flying the second hand Mirages. So what could be the reasons (if the news are true)
1. These planes are really not in flyable condition or near EOL so too risky
2. Airforce is Sati Savitri types - they dont fly second hand, only plan A that is rafale
3. France is selling at 1 Euro (rest I speculate is transportation cost as these delicate birds have to transported with care) and the condition is you cannot fly them, use for spare else pay us 43 million Euros for each bird.

My vote is that news is wrong and we can fly them, but if we cannot fly them reason can be 2 or 3.


I think its more of #3, i.e. hey I will give it away for free but only if you don't engineer it to fly. If you want it to fly then you contract us in $20 million per plane and we will bring it up to the standards and only then you can fly. No one will give it at free if the intent is to get them flying.
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4282
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by fanne »

The M2K are not free. We are buying Rafale and paying through our noses for it. It is costlier than 5th gen F-35.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18267
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

fanne wrote:The M2K are not free. We are buying Rafale and paying through our noses for it. It is costlier than 5th gen F-35.
Please look at the number of F-35s being produced versus the number of Rafales that have been made to date. Economies of scale play a big role here. French maal is always more expensive because the market is very small.

Can you please advise how you came to the conclusion that the GOI is paying for the Rafale through her nose?
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4282
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by fanne »

paying through nose is not equal to paying more than required
paying through nose is equal to really costly; can you please also throw in some for free and here comes m2k - for spares or not
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18267
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Can you please advise what you feel what would have been the appropriate cost for the Rafale with the ISE?

And it remains to be seen whether if any of the 24 Mirages 2000 being acquired will all be used only for spares or whether any of those 24 birds will actually be flown. So let us kindly reserve judgement on that, until some new concrete evidence comes. To date, all we have are multiple press reports contradicting each other.
Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Vips »

There would be some kind of end-user agreement even for second hand jets. If France has sold the M2K's strictly for cannibalization as spares for the Indian fleet then rest assured there wont be any of these flying in Indian colors.

I did read in one of the news report that all the jets will be used to keep the rest of the Indian fleet flying (used for spare parts). It would be surprising if India is able to induct a jet in the service when its cost is only a little more then 1 Million euro.

It would be uncharacteristic of the French not to charge more knowing 8 or 11 of those being sold will be inducted in the Indian fleet.
Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5352
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

There are a couple of possibilities here:

1. These M2ks are so cheap because (as many reports note) they are unflyable and can only be used for cannibalization
OR
2. THese M2ks (at least a few of them) are flyable with some upkeep (as some reports suggest), which means that the French will get a good deal/order from GOI in return. My guess 36 new Raffles are otw :D
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

Quite a few M2Ks are flyable and a few can be made flightworthy. Rest are truly spares.
Let's see.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12195
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

This whole discussion about the flyable aircrafts is quite speculative for me.

Because we don't really know if the any service life is left in the aircrafts.

While we know what the cost of upgrades will be.. But we don't know if the upgrade it self will be viable due to age of the airframe life.

A cursory reading on the topic of upgrades doesn't show if it involves a service life extension program.

If service life extension is not a part of the upgrad. Then the second hand Mirage's will not be viable candidate for upgrade.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

Making the classic mistake of echoing an echo chamber - in the sense that many of those tweets are referring similar primary reports. And the newspaper reports are quoting the same ANI.
So what you get is basically a giant self referential circle.

Not a big fan of Rahul Bedi/Jane's, they have an anti indigenization spin and routinely selectively highlight negatives, or even use dated reports to push an agenda, but he does have establishment sources. And what he writes has in this case matched HTs Gupta as well. So I'd wait and watch.
ShivS
BRFite
Posts: 142
Joined: 19 Apr 2019 23:25

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ShivS »

We will use the purchases for spares - that’s baseline. Does not mean that we can’t evaluate and try to get some airframes inducted into the fleet.

Attempts are on for use as aircraft - let’s see what happens. In all likelihood upgrades will be needed and are worth it.
ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4056
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ArjunPandit »

Vivek K wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:true only if you can get it by end of this week. War is not very far. IAF needs plans asap. More power to tejas but these deals are good with existing bird types..
Any reason for this conclusion? Or are we raising a bogey to push something?

IAF probably wants these M2Ks for spares. Any that could fly would have to be in UPG condition ($40M+ per aircraft). The expectation that these will be available at the end of this week seems un realistic - what leads to this conclusion Arjun ji?
nothing over tejas sir, but the fact on ground, despite our love for tejas, is that orders of tejas were placed late (mod-iaf and all have their share of blame) pandemic hasnt helped even the existing delivery rates. When was the last tejas delivered?? i was of initial impression that these planes will fly based on the news reports..even if it the planes are to improve the availability rates that eases the pressure off IAF or may be some existing no.s to import an altogether new type like f18 or f16 or even rafale..gives more time to tejas mk2, tedbf/orca to come in their own time...

now regarding war is not far..i do expect another uri/pulwama type strike well before end of this year..happenings in afghanistan, china border and the slap by NZ, eng have left paxis fuming...we can always count upon them to create problems.count them to do something by end of this year..of course these wont be arriving by COB today..but better late than never..i am all for such scalping so that we get time to stabilize tejas deliveries...having an american or other bird in IAF will kill our nascent industry..period...
ashishvikas
BRFite
Posts: 854
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ashishvikas »

Air Marshal VR Chaudhari, presently Vice Chief of Air Staff, to be the next Chief of Air Staff.

Image
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18267
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Fantastic news. He is a MiG-29 pilot. Wish him all the best.
Bala Vignesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2131
Joined: 30 Apr 2009 02:02
Location: Standing at the edge of the cliff
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Bala Vignesh »

Wonder if he will continue the good work by the previous 2 chiefs or it will switch over, as he is someone who has been primarily exposed to only Russian platforms?
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18267
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Sirjee, he flew the Rafale in France and was one of the witness called by the Supreme Court of India during the Rafale hearing. He defended the Rafale deal. I believe he was an Air Vice Marshal then.

Each Chief - they are only human - will have certain personal preferences towards platforms, however that has no bearing on what platform(s) the service eventually acquires. The procurement system - especially in the MRFA/MMRCA acquisition - is designed in such a way, that no one officer (regardless of rank) can arbitrarily overrule what the platform being acquired should be. With our MoD, every file is documented, annotated and signed. No file will move without them.

When you reach the rank of Chief, your job is largely advising the Govt on the matters of your service. The Staff Officers who work under the Chief and the Command Officers are the ones who have administrative and operational flexibility. That is the job to aspire for, if that is your cup of tea. However no senior officer will turn down the position of Chief or Vice Chief if offered. And to be precise, it is not even an offer - it is actually an order that comes from the President of India. Disobey the order and you are inviting court martial. You have to have some underlying reason that will prevent you from fulfilling the duties of the office that you have been appointed to. And when you become Chief, you become part and parcel of the history of your service, which no other post will give you.

Dhanoa Sir will always be synonymous with Balakot, Tipnis Sir with the 1999 Kargil War, PC Lal Sir with the 1971 Indo-Pak War, Arjan Singh Sir with the 1965 Indo-Pak War, etc.
Avid
BRFite
Posts: 471
Joined: 21 Sep 2001 11:31
Location: Earth

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Avid »

On this oft-repeated Rafale vs. F-35

Rafale are available *now* vs. F-35 delivery line is booked for years to come.

Can you really compare the costs of the two?
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18267
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Here is a funny story narrated to me by an Indian University professor (he taught at a university in North America) and relates to arbitrary decision making by military service chiefs in India.

Circa mid 1978. Air Marshal Idris Hasan Latif has just been appointed as the next Air Chief of the Indian Air Force. A gleeful Pakistani - known to the Indian University professor - came running to him, to tell him of this news. After mentioning the news of this appointment, this NaPaki then tells the professor ---> "You guys are so screwed now!" The professor asks, "What do you mean?" The NaPaki replies, "When he becomes Air Chief and because he is a Muslim, what is stopping him from ordering the entire IAF combat fleet to fly into Pakistan and land all their planes there? India will then have no air power!"

Moral of the Story - No service chief can make an arbitrary decision. Good luck with that.

P.S. This story was narrated to me in "shudh" Punjabi, a language that is the mother tongue of the Indian professor and the Pakistani who also spoke it quite well. My English translation does not do it justice. The NaPaki mind is truly a comedian's goldmine.
Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2931
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Vivek K »

Admiral - :rotfl: ! I guess there is no real hope for the Pakistanis!! Can one be so dorky?
Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5352
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:Here is a funny story narrated to me by an Indian University professor (he taught at a university in North America) and relates to arbitrary decision making by military service chiefs in India.....
P.S. This story was narrated to me in "shudh" Punjabi, a language that is the mother tongue of the Indian professor and the Pakistani who also spoke it quite well. My English translation does not do it justice. The NaPaki mind is truly a comedian's goldmine.
And this gent was a perfesor? In top hifi amrikhan university? :shock:
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18267
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

The NaPaki obviously was not :)
sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6094
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by sanjaykumar »

The sad thing is that tale probably ain’t apocryphal.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12195
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

:(( One only needs to listen Jalebi Madam.

I was a young adult when my exposure to her was cut when PTV was banned in India.

I still haven't found a second source of entertainment. :((
Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5414
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Manish_P »

^ You can watch YouTube. There are so many videos of Pak media on India. Uploaded by Indians. Full entertainment guaranteed.

Need to be a bit careful with some channels though - there are some ahem non-family friendly words at times by the uploader

Few years ago I also used to visit the deaf-and-dumb forum. Just to see reactions after any new development in our forces. But I stopped it within a few visits. Not even for the laughs. I could almost feel my brain getting frozen and my head would start to ache.
ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4056
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ArjunPandit »

Vivek K wrote:Admiral - :rotfl: ! I guess there is no real hope for the Pakistanis!! Can one be so dorky?
I am sure you havent been exposed to the genius of lord sir shahid raza on twitter as of yet..in case you ever feel depression or feel low intellect i suggest you go to pakistani twitter spaces and listen to their bravado..
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18267
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18267
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 51413?s=20 ---> IAF's next Chief helped in development of tactics for Beyond Visual Range (BVR) vs BVR missile engagements as well as tactics for intercepting UAVs, in consultation with TACDE.
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4282
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by fanne »

A little explanation will help...
IOC vs FOC? Does it show FOC config has completely replaced FOC, or IOC was first done, followed by FOC. Display is in IOC and also in HMDS? Are these display different?

Is MDPU replaced by HAL MC or it is but one other interface with it?

....so on and so forth ...

But biggest news, we have a Indian Mission computer, and if it is the real mission computer (and not a name sake, where some of the cool work still gets done by MDPU), we have come a long way. We can integrate mainly Russian + Israeli+ French in Indian MC in SU30MKI, we are now doing that in Mig 29 UPG (that's the latest upgrade envisioned post Balakot) and now Mirages.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

Rakesh How much does this upgrade cost? And what components does HAL add to existing components?

Reason am asking is about 3-4 M2Ks can be salvaged from that new lot.
So can they be upgraded with these new components provided the airframe has enough life?
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18267
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Ramana-ji, it will be hard to quantify an amount...because this PowerPoint slide we are seeing is HAL's portion of the M2K upgrade. Perhaps KaranM may know.

All I know is that the overall upgrade cost is around $43 million per plane. Now whether 3 - 4 (or more) aircraft - from the batch of 24 that are coming - can be salvaged and made airworthy remains to be seen. To date, all I have seen are conflicting news reports and tweets about the status of these 24 birds. That is causing a lot of speculation in the forum.

In early October, the then new air chief - but now Air Marshal VR Chaudhuri - will likely be asked this question. The new Chief usually gives a press conference when they take over and Oct 08th (IAF Day) is also coming. I am certain, at least one member of the press will ask this question ---> are any of the used Mirage 2000s being acquired be made airworthy? Will they join active flying duties?

I for one am eager to know the answer.
Anoop
BRFite
Posts: 632
Joined: 16 May 2002 11:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Anoop »

So, in light of the new Air Chief being announced effective Oct 1, the earlier reports of the current Chief being given a 6 month extension was all speculation??
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18267
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Heaven only knows. This govt loves to spring surprises when it comes to appointments. Things are kept under wraps till the last possible minute.
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4282
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by fanne »

ramana wrote:Rakesh How much does this upgrade cost? And what components does HAL add to existing components?

Reason am asking is about 3-4 M2Ks can be salvaged from that new lot.
So can they be upgraded with these new components provided the airframe has enough life?
43 million is a very steep price for upgrade (unless we have already paid for 51, 2 planes have crashed so 2 can be accommodated that way)

In my opinion these are the options in in no particular order -
1. Leave the plane as it is (upgrade only 2 as per above reason). This is under assumption that not much life is left. They are French standard and should be decent enough. Fly them till they cannot no longer fly
2. Very limited upgrade to Fire Mica, new EW gear and newer A/G weapon. I have a feeling if the options are all French, it will not be very far from the option of $43 million- If can be wrapped in under $10m/plane, it maybe worth it
3.Install Indian avionics + EW gear (Israeli or Desi) + Uttam (essentially LCAMK1A gear) on it. There will be expense, but all to domestic companies, drawback being it cannot fire French munitions, but can fire many desi ones.
4. If the life can be expanded similar to IAF M2K, then perhaps go for $43 M/plane. They will server for another 20 years. Btw this is also the cost of new LCAMK1A. But the French option is more matured, tested and proven. Ours will also get there eventually, but is not there now.
I would say any option that gives total cost under $10m/plane is good (assuming not long life of plane) will be good, except desi option, even if costly if 70% of the proceed remains in house, not bad.
Last edited by fanne on 23 Sep 2021 02:32, edited 1 time in total.
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4282
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by fanne »

Why was this appointment surprise? Did someone get passed over?
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18267
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

fanne wrote:Why was this appointment surprise? Did someone get passed over?
No surprise. As per media reports, he was one of four officers in consideration to become Chief.

Race hots up for the post of Air Force, Navy chief. Here are the main contenders
https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2021/ ... nders.html
06 August 2021
Air Marshal Vivek Ram Chaudhari, Air Marshal Amit Dev, Air Marshal Manavendra Singh and Air Marshal Sandeep Singh are in the race to succeed Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Bhadauria.
Bala Vignesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2131
Joined: 30 Apr 2009 02:02
Location: Standing at the edge of the cliff
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Bala Vignesh »

Admiral Saab,
I agree and am aware of what you say but as the principle advisor of all things aerospace, his stance and words carry weight which can shift things around, even if just a little. Given the juncture we are at when it comes to our own MIC, that little shift could spell the end of it, is my worry.
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by nam »

Agp79v4. GaN AESA for F18 upgrade. First within US.

Moderator Note: Please do not post images without providing the source and link.

Hope LRDE goes directly to GaN for Uttam 2 for MK2. No point dilly dayling with GaAs, We already have a GaN x band for QRSAM.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18267
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1439 ... 15714?s=20 --->

Six Degrees of Separation and a Planeful of Sky....

Cast in the Same Mould - The Air Warrior Spirit.

Photographs by Wg Cdr Indranil Nandi and Flt Lt DS Sekhon

Image

Image
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18267
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1440 ... 02053?s=20 --->

Grace and Power.....The Big Cat Exclusive. Code Name Jaguar.

Photographs by Gp Capt KD Beri and Wg Cdr Indranil Nandi.

Image

Image

Image
Post Reply