Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

YashG wrote:
Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/InsightGL/status/14 ... 86021?s=20 ---->

* We broke S-400 news
* India is getting five squadrons
* China has six squadrons

* Difference:
- China has 36 launchers x 4 = 144 missiles
- India will have 40 launchers x 4 = 160 missiles
- Since China not signatory MTCR, it can't have the 400 km range missile
- Indian Air Force will have 400, 250, 120 and 40 km range missiles
KaranM you had debunked this MTCR theory iirc. Its being peddled again. can u weigh in?
I wouldn't take any of those numbers seriously without cross checking. The Chinese got the export version of the 40N6, sane as us.
AkshaySG
BRFite
Posts: 412
Joined: 30 Jul 2020 08:51

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by AkshaySG »

Rakesh wrote:
nits wrote:Sorry for my ignorance but s 400 will be operated by IAF or strategic forces?
Indian Air Force. They are the ones who are insisting on the platform, not the GOI which is the misconception among a few on the forum :)

The same service is also stating that acquisition of the S-400 does not translate into reduced numbers of manned squadrons. 42 is still the magic number to achieve. India's strategic command - for now - handles both nuclear and conventional ballistic missiles. S-400 is out of the purview of the strategic command.
Wonder how all this will change with theatre-iszation of commands.

There is an Air Defence Command that is being set up so one assumes this will fall under it but then Northern Command is still separate for now so initial deployment may be with that.

Would be interesting to see how Army and AF's air defences are integrated into one combined system.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18259
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Very true Askhay. The S-400 could eventually land up with the proposed Air Defence Command. But who knows! Just as all the ballistic missiles with conventional warheads - currently under the SFC - will eventually move to the proposed Integrated Rocket Force that is also in the works. Right now, it is too early to call. The CDS, Service Chiefs and the Govt are still working out the details. I have faith in the CDS and in this Govt though. I personally think the CDS is doing a fabulous job in removing the redundancies and prioritizing what is really important.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18259
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

This is why we need an effective media cell for the Armed Forces. Something sorely lacking and appalling considering the movie/music industry in India. Of all the music in the world, they found only the Top Gun theme to play? Come on!!!

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/14 ... 83041?s=20 ---> They’re playing the Top Gun theme at the Purvanchal Expressway landing demo.
hemant_sai
BRFite
Posts: 178
Joined: 13 Dec 2018 12:13

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by hemant_sai »

Very interesting article,
https://www.rand.org/blog/2020/05/russi ... worth.html

It has emphasized the need of awacs and aerostats and integration of s400 into a robust surveillance nw to extract true potential of s400.

Else ground based radars are vulnerable to low altitude attacks.

It is well known that IAF is already lagging in awacs fleet.
In Feb 2016 there was news that IAF is planning to procure 8 aerostat radars.

Any other means we have to make s400 effective?
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18259
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Everything You Need to Know About India’s New S-400 Missile Defense System
https://www.techniajz.com/blog-detail/e ... nse-system
18 Nov 2021
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18259
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

FYI...Rahul Bedi article. But FWIW...

Hopeful of a CAATSA Bypass, India Looks to Bolster Air Defence With Russian S-400
https://thewire.in/security/hopeful-of- ... sian-s-400
18 Nov 2021
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5479
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Cyrano »

How does a system like S400 avoid firing at one's own aircraft ie friendly fire like what happened during balakot strikes when an Mi17 was shot down by Spyder AD systems?

If both our and enemy aircraft/missiles are in the air, how is selective targeting of enemy only achieved?

Do these systems check signals from aircraft IFF transponders for ex? That still leaves our missiles.

Since IAF and IRF (rocket force) and strategic forces will all have various radars and rockets/missiles, does it make sense to integrate all three or do we expect the Theatre Commands to do all that along with IA and IN ?
Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2931
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Vivek K »

IFF is how they discriminate.
ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2616
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ldev »

Cain Marko wrote:The induction of the s400 surely changes the picture for PLAAF planners, not that they couldn't have gamed this earlier.

Nevertheless, I sleep a little better knowing that tall men stand next to laang mijjiles on snow capped watch towers.

Aerial assault via missiles or fighters now will be a very difficult proposition. They know it'll be a stalemate with a distinct possibility of bad optics.
While the S-400 having ground based radar would normally be a disadvantage in terms of line of sight range, in the case of the LAC the geography favors India for placement of the S-400. The average height of the mountains is 15,000-16,000 feet and that includes the passes. Whether it is PLAAF aircraft or cruise missiles they have to clear those mountains at a minimum of that height plus some margin depending on how accurate Chinese GPS is for heights. That gives a line of sight coverage of ~260 km for the S-400 radar. Whether it is Jorhat or Hashimara or Bareilly or Ambala, they all fall within that <300 km range from those mountain heights. So any S-400 battalions placed at any of these locations will be able to pick up PLAAF aircraft and cruise missiles provided they can discriminate against background (mountain) clutter.

Conversely from a defensive standpoint the geography does not favor China for S-400 placement. Because of the height of the Tibetan plateau and the much smaller differential in height between the Kailash range and the Tibetan plateau.. And that is why they have had to place an S-400 battery so close to the border in the Chishul sector

Against Pakistan actually IMO the S-400 will be less of an advantage specially in Punjab and into Rajasthan because the terrain is flat and there will be the usual ground based limitation in terms of line of sight.
Last edited by ldev on 19 Nov 2021 04:39, edited 2 times in total.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18259
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

A nice article by Air Marshal Anil Chopra (retd)

With 25 airfields capable of launching ops, IAF well placed against Chinese air force in Himalayas
https://www.firstpost.com/india/iaf-wel ... 46951.html
18 Nov 2021
China effectively has three airfields close to eastern Ladakh, and around eight in Tibet. One more is coming up in Xinjiang. They are trying to upgrade infrastructure but have the disadvantage of very high altitude.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

ldev wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:The induction of the s400 surely changes the picture for PLAAF planners, not that they couldn't have gamed this earlier.

Nevertheless, I sleep a little better knowing that tall men stand next to laang mijjiles on snow capped watch towers.

Aerial assault via missiles or fighters now will be a very difficult proposition. They know it'll be a stalemate with a distinct possibility of bad optics.
While the S-400 having ground based radar would normally be a disadvantage in terms of line of sight range, in the case of the LAC the geography favors India for placement of the S-400. The average height of the mountains is 15,000-16,000 feet and that includes the passes. Whether it is PLAAF aircraft or cruise missiles they have to clear those mountains at a minimum of that height plus some margin depending on how accurate Chinese GPS is for heights. That gives a line of sight coverage of ~260 km for the S-400 radar. Whether it is Jorhat or Hashimara or Bareilly or Ambala, they all fall within that <300 km range from those mountain heights. So any S-400 battalions placed at any of these locations will be able to pick up PLAAF aircraft and cruise missiles provided they can discriminate against background (mountain) clutter.

Conversely from a defensive standpoint the geography does not favor China for S-400 placement. Because of the height of the Tibetan plateau and the much smaller differential in height between the Kailash range and the Tibetan plateau.. And that is why they have had to place an S-400 battery so close to the border in the Chishul sector

Against Pakistan actually IMO the S-400 will be less of an advantage specially in Punjab and into Rajasthan because the terrain is flat and there will be the usual ground based limitation in terms of line of sight.
Even versus Pakistan that depends on whether or not we get masts for our radars. A standard range at which most low flying targets may be picked up is 40km. That's quite sufficient for the Akash or even the S-400 to engage it.

And against Pakistan, because the terrain is flat, all their aircraft are vulnerable when flying at any fuel efficient altitude. For instance, even flying at a relatively low, non optimal, 3km altitude would have them picked up at 260 km from a non mast mounted radar.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18259
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Karan M wrote:Even versus Pakistan that depends on whether or not we get masts for our radars. A standard range at which most low flying targets may be picked up is 40km. That's quite sufficient for the Akash or even the S-400 to engage it.

And against Pakistan, because the terrain is flat, all their aircraft are vulnerable when flying at any fuel efficient altitude. For instance, even flying at a relatively low, non optimal, 3km altitude would have them picked up at 260 km from a non mast mounted radar.
Thanks for that Karan. Also can you please advise on Rahul Bedi's claim below? It is Rahul Bedi, that is why I am asking! :lol:

Hopeful of a CAATSA Bypass, India Looks to Bolster Air Defence With Russian S-400
https://thewire.in/security/hopeful-of- ... sian-s-400
18 Nov 2021
Overall, the S-400 system has the capacity to detect targets at distances of up to 600 km, which in effect would provide the IAF the capability to track Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fighters almost upon take-off from any base around their country. Ideally, it would also enable the IAF to inhibit enemy air operations within their own airspace and this detection facility would also be applicable to enemy missile launches, analysts said.
Is it safe to assume that the S-400 will be tied into the larger air defence network that the IAF has?
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

Well not almost on take off as the radar horizon comes into play. But once they climb to a decent operating height, then yes. Even 1 km would be around 120 km detection range. If they remain at 500 mtrs, radar horizon is limited to 100km.

But even that complicates their mission planning, as their fuel burn goes up heavily and they will need IFR or to base their aircraft close to the border. Former will be easier for us to detect and latter makes their aircraft vulnerable to IAF counter strikes.

Basically a lot of their advanced BVR tactics of flying high, fast etc will become much more risky for them as IAF can choose to have the S-400/MRSAM combo be the first respondent even as it chooses to use the fighter fleet to prevent SEAD attacks on the S-400. Even there its not easy for the Pakistanis, they need 250+ km ranged SEAD weapons to target the S-400 batteries, which even if these were cruise missiles have to run the gamut of not being shot down. And since the system is highly mobile, the battery can constantly relocate. The battle management aircraft for instance, trying to run the operation itself will have to stay 400km behind the battery to avoid the longer ranged 400km stick, which means it can't detect IAF aircraft seeking to ambush the fighters. Its radar range itself will be limited thanks to staying so far behind, which means its ability to counter long range BVR equipped IAF fighters will reduce. It will detect them only a few minutes before their BVR attack. All in all, it complicates PAF mission planning like crazy.

Is it invulnerable, surely not. But it will be integrated into the IAF's larger Integrated Air Command and Control system. And that makes it even more crazy. Because if the Russians and Indians work it out, the S-400 will be taking passive inputs from the IACCS, and passing it on to the battery fire control radar. which turns on only for missile guidance.

The structure of the S-400 is such that it consists of the main battery HQ element with its control cabin (55K6E) and Big Bird radar (91N6E) and then 2 batteries, each with a fire control radar (92N6E) and presumably 8 launchers with 4 missile tubes each. Now consider we have paid top $$ for this, and I surmise we have also purchased individual surveillance radars for these batteries. That means things get even more nasty for the PAF. So what can happen is thanks to the IACCS you can continue getting the big picture while the baseline radars focus on specific sectors and target classes (of course this would mean we would need to work with the Russians to fuse the sensors, but they do offer third party sensor integration). Now even without integration, thanks to an extra battery level surveillance radar, the capability of the system goes up manifold.

I haven't even got into the MRSAM structure and what the Akash (new order) will bring to the table. Those two will also add substantially to our aircover. The only two things missing are a full fledged BMD unit (via the DRDO unit, to complement and even take over some of the responsibilities off of the S-400) and a cheap gun AAA solution with proximity fusing for IAF AFB. But they too will arrive.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

Ok, since I started off I might as well add a few more points. People like Bedi are going on and on about the S-400 radar and its instrumented range - well IAI and DRDO would like to have a word with them, given the fact the existing radars IAF has inducted and is trialing are actually every bit as capable vs most similar targets.

The S-400s USP is that its multi-function, the same set can be used for both long range BMD work (3k km class) and standard air breathing targets, and can be hoisted upon a mast too (which makes it immobile so the IAF will carefully consider its pros and cons, even if it has purchased the capability). But it can do one function at a time, but the fact it can do so many makes it very capable.

The point I am making is we can already figure out moment a PAF plane takes off from most of their primary AFB unless terrain gets in the way (it doesn't for the most part) and the IACCS distributes that information to all the sub-command nodes. That's how in Feb 2019, we were able to quickly send the Bisons to bounce the Vipers. The PAF thought they had caught us during when we were recycling our AD assets and we had too few on station. But Sq Ldr Agarwal had a birds eye view on the whole situation thanks to the IACCS, and was already surging assets into play.

But our fighters were deliberate tripwires, intended to surge the MiG-21s and other fighters into the fray. Now with the S-400, you don't even need to put your limited AD fighters in the outer bubble. It has 4 classes of missiles - 400 km, 250km, 120km and 40 km. A single battery can carry an entire mix of those missiles. What this means is a PAF formation headed towards an Indian target has no idea of what range it may be engaged at until it gets the Gravestone FCR lock-on, especially if we integrate the IACCS to feed the surveillance feed into the Command and Control setup. Its eye in the sky, their AWACS have to stay further behind and can't really assist the PAF formation as it penetrates deeper into Indian airspace. Why does this matter? Because the PAF needs their AEW&CS to coordinate functions.

So suppose we use the S-400 to engage the outer AEW&CS and EW aircraft, and the IFR, all turn and run. The PAF fighters move forward to target the battery - the S-400 fires on them too, or MRSAM does. The PAF coordinates a BM, CM strike on the geo-located S-400 battery (if they think they can pull it off), but the S-400 can target that too, and if the area is covered by two batteries, both classes of targets can be engaged.

It makes PAF mission planning very very hard. They have to now think of a range of potential threats moment they take off - its not just being detected but targeted during wartime. Add Meteor armed Rafales, and soon (hopefully!) Astra Mk2 armed Su-30s, MiG-29s and Tejas to the mix and the PAF will be really hard-pressed. Because at this point they can't really fight the S-400 battery alone - as their AFB and air assets are at siege from IAF aircraft on strike missions. And the Brahmos SSM squadrons operated by the IAF, and Harop/Harpy. And soon a range of UAS from HAL/NS/ADA and other private vendors.

The PAF may think it understands the S-400 limitations if PRC is kind enough to show them everything (does PRC even trust them that much!) but its not just the S-400, its the IACCS, its MRSAM, its Akash and a whole bunch of systems we have and are procuring that will be their problem in the coming years. The transitory gap they created thanks to US largesse - AMRAAMs and Erieye is fast fading.
morem
BRFite
Posts: 227
Joined: 26 Jul 2009 15:52

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by morem »

Take a bow Karan M, this needs wider dissemination.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18259
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Fantastic explanation Karan M. Thank you so much. I echo morem.

Just reading the above two posts alone clearly illustrates that the IAF made a very wise move with the S-400 acquisition.

The capability being acquired far outweighs any political price India will have to potentially pay vis-à-vis the US.

Kudos to the Modi Govt for holding its ground on this issue.
ks_sachin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2906
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

Rakesh wrote:Fantastic explanation Karan M. Thank you so much. I echo morem.

Just reading the above two posts alone clearly illustrates that the IAF made a very wise move with the S-400 acquisition.

The capability being acquired far outweighs any political price India will have to potentially pay vis-à-vis the US.

Kudos to the Modi Govt for holding its ground on this issue.
Admiral you are accusing the IAF top brass of being wise and taking a good decision...

I thought the general tenor in the last few pages was that it was anything but......
John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3447
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by John »

We truly have not tested S-400 to see if it holds up to the hype. While Russian rocketry is too notch and as is overall way the system is integrated with wide range of missiles.

Russian radar systems seem to struggle against jamming, detecting low flying targets and disseminating drones from birds. Pantsir (Libya and Syria) and Armenian S-300 (supposedly heavily upgraded) performance against drones and low flying missiles has been quite awful. Only a decade ago these systems were heavily hyped in BR but now they all but relegated to scrap bin. Hope Russians have resolved these issues with S-400 only time will tell.

Given that Turkey and China has the exact same system on hand it doesn’t give me much hope that they cannot exploit any vulnerabilities. As I have always said best option is a domestic system.
m_saini
BRFite
Posts: 767
Joined: 23 May 2020 20:25

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by m_saini »

Great posts Karan M saar. Extremely informative as always!
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

Thanks guys for the kind words. Its a really powerful system for sure!
John wrote:We truly have not tested S-400 to see if it holds up to the hype. Russian radar systems seem to struggle against jamming, detecting low flying targets and disseminating drones from birds. Pantsir (Libya and Syria) and Armenian S-300 (supposedly heavily upgraded) performance against drones and low flying missiles has been quite awful. Hope Russians have resolved these issues with S-400.

Given that Turkey and China has the exact same system on hand it doesn’t give me much hope that they cannot exploit any vulnerabilities. As I have always said best option is a domestic system.
Simply put, either we trust the IAF or we don't. But lets be logical - the IAF knows exactly what system it is procuring given it has the best of equivalent radar systems from Israel, France and India to compare against and yet it chose the S-400. They do this stuff for their daily eval - including ECCM, so it would be presumptuous to state we haven't tested the S-400 or evaluated it properly. They have first class technical people, have full access to desi developers to back them up and obviously received classified briefings and had access to test eval. And they have had access to the S-300 for years now, given it was evaluated for the BMD Network too.

I am not going to go into the Pantsir details as claims it failed are quite debatable - there have been multiple reasons for losses, and it has also scored a high attrition against UAVs. Which is the entire point of SAM systems - they exist to impose losses and are part of a layered network.

But what's more germane is the fact its easier to add high-end complex capabilities to larger systems than smaller ones.

Armenia operated the S-300 PS - amongst the oldest (https://www.defenseworld.net/uploads//n ... webp/ngcb8). Unless we know how it was defended, and whether the outer layers failed, speculating is meaningless.

Russian systems in IAF service have performed well against EW (which is why IAF continues to take them seriously). The S-400s radars are huge enough (hundreds of Kw, peak power) that one would literally need huge jammers and even those would be vulnerable to counter-attack, this even discounting sophisticated processing (always easier for a ground based system vs an airborne system running low on space and volume, and power). Plus the S-300 itself ran on SAGG, making it even harder to counter and jam, and it stands to reason the S-400 would have retained that and added ARH as well for some missiles.

The S-400 low RCS capability is also widely remarked - the US does not want any ally to procure it lest its radars detect the F-35 and the data gets back to Russia.

No radar system will perform "excellently" against the lowest flying targets unless it's mast mounted, radar horizon comes into play. Only the S-3/4-XX systems come with such huge masts (38/28 mtr high masts). In return you sacrifice mobility. Is that trade-off worth it, that depends on the situation.

The bird issue exists for most radars because of filtering concerns - set the filter sufficiently broad enough and literally every target in the sky is picked up. Having said that this is not a new issue and systems like the S-400 will obviously have a filtering mechanism based on velocity, a very low RCS, high speed target will be flagged. Whereas a slow, low RCS target might require more discernment. This is the reason most countries are using mixed EO/radar systems and dedicated anti-drone units for their services despite having huge SAM system setups. Even AI cannot predict things accurately unless it has a huge dataset to base things off of. The IAF knows this and has invested in anti-drone systems.

Of course Turkey, China have a similar system - but we don't have the exact same one. Each customer's system will be different tailored to their unique requirements and what Russia is willing to share. Given Turkey's NATO links and China sharing a border plus ripping off whatever it gets, its actually logical to surmise that the Indian system is the most capable "all-up" export variant there is.

Can they exploit any vulnerabilities - sure, that risk is there with all our imports, including Rafale, but at the end of the day, they will have to dedicate a ton of assets to that effect, which is the entire point of having a strategic SAM system, it forces the opponent on the defensive or have them take away resources from elsewhere. And apart from the brute force method, its not easy to fight such a system. Its not like either Turkey or China will share data with each other or with France or anyone else to develop a counter for Pak's sake.

We can't replace S-400 with a domestic system (yet) because most countries will struggle with developing the kind of integrated "all in one set" the S-400 is with 4 classes of missiles all in one compact set, with very high automation, literally very low emplacement/displacement times, and then the phenomenal mobility thanks to having everything on large highly mobile trucks. Plus, the S-400 offers both capability against air-breathing targets and BMD both. Given the situation, the IAF can deploy the same system for either class of target. That flexibility plus performance mix is why they wanted it.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18259
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

With the amount of takleef that America is having - on a daily basis - with their F-35 and the Communist S-400 being in the same vicinity, I am sure the Russians have developed a pretty robust system.
ks_sachin wrote:Admiral you are accusing the IAF top brass of being wise and taking a good decision...

I thought the general tenor in the last few pages was that it was anything but......
It is only when Amreeki maal is acquired, we have to question Sirjee. I have full trust and faith in Russian maal :mrgreen: :P
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by nam »

What I really hope we get is S400 integration with Su30. Bars doing the TWS, sending data across too S400 and the missile is then cued using the datalink.

Something what F35 does with SM6.

You could have a S400 missile coming at you, even if one thinks they are not being tracked by one!
ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2616
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ldev »

John wrote:We truly have not tested S-400 to see if it holds up to the hype. While Russian rocketry is too notch and as is overall way the system is integrated with wide range of missiles.

Russian radar systems seem to struggle against jamming, detecting low flying targets and disseminating drones from birds. Pantsir (Libya and Syria) and Armenian S-300 (supposedly heavily upgraded) performance against drones and low flying missiles has been quite awful. Only a decade ago these systems were heavily hyped in BR but now they all but relegated to scrap bin. Hope Russians have resolved these issues with S-400 only time will tell.

Given that Turkey and China has the exact same system on hand it doesn’t give me much hope that they cannot exploit any vulnerabilities. As I have always said best option is a domestic system.
A totally domestic integrated AD network would consist of the ABM system we used to discuss 10+ years ago on BRF i.e. PAD, AAD, AD-1, AD-2 with the Long Range Tracking Radar based on the Swordfish. Tests were done during VK Saraswat's time. That would take care of IRBMs with a range of upto 5000 km. Networked and the layer next level down should have been the MRSAM and the now extended range upto 150 km Barak 8 ER and below that would be the Akash battalions. That would have been a totally domestic networked AD solution. Given the amount of hype for the BMD system 10 years ago I would have hoped that a completely domestic AD network consisting of the above components would have been in place by now. But that is not to be I see.

The Russians have been very strategic in who they sell the S-400 to. Iran has been very eager to buy this system but the Russians have not sold it to Iran....so far. If the Russians do sell it to Iran, I would bet on Israel targeting it. That will be a true test of really how effective the much talked about ULF radar capability of the S-400 is because Israel will certainly use it's F-35s to mount such an attack. If Israel knocks out the S-400 that will be very bad for future sales prospects for the S-400 and similarly if the S-400 does shoot down an F-35 the reverse will hold true. I don't think the Russians want such a test to occur and hence they have not sold the S-400 to Iran despite Iran ready to pay full price for it. Nor have they transferred the S-400 to Syrian AD forces, as the S-400 system in Syria is operated by Russia and is not available to defend Syrian assets against Israeli attacks but is there to only defend against direct attacks on Russian forces in Syria and so there is no direct confrontation between the Israeli Air Force and an S-400 battery. Turkey will never have to use it's S-400, nobody is going to attack Turkey so long as it is a NATO country. And the next logical place that the S-400 will be tested in actual battle conditions will be India vs China. Given India's acquisition of the S-400, it is quite likely that the PLAAF's reliance on the LO J-20 will increase on the LAC. How a LO aircraft fares against the S-400 will be an interesting contest to see.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

The Indian Phase 1 BMD system is available. Its a political decision to deploy it or not, and that deployment data will be closely guarded. You are mistaken about the range of the Phase 1 items. They were meant for 2K km class. For targets at ranges beyond that we have the capability to build (ASAT test for instance showed it) but not to test full scale (essential). Phase 2 tests needed the Naval testbed which has recently been launched. Apart from BMD/S400, India has its own LR/XRSAM options as well. Latter is a program that has been already revealed. In short indigenous options are coming along pretty OK and will complement the S-400, finances dictating speed of induction.

Iran has invested heavily in developing its own quasi-strategic SAM systems with China. It has a whole bunch of them now. Chinese gear has severe reliability issues which is likely one of the reasons they are still interested in Russian gear.
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by brar_w »

ldev wrote:The Russians have been very strategic in who they sell the S-400 to. Iran has been very eager to buy this system but the Russians have not sold it to Iran....so far. If the Russians do sell it to Iran, I would bet on Israel targeting it. That will be a true test of really how effective the much talked about ULF radar capability of the S-400 is because Israel will certainly use it's F-35s to mount such an attack.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7625&p=2524156#p2524156
Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5352
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

A totally domestic integrated AD network would consist of the ABM system we used to discuss 10+ years ago on BRF i.e. PAD, AAD, AD-1, AD-2 with the Long Range Tracking Radar based on the Swordfish. Tests were done during VK Saraswat's time.
Wasn't there some chatter about India having s300? At least some components of the system such as the lrtr? Perhaps the integration into the iaccs is easy enough?
The Russians have been very strategic in who they sell the S-400 to. Iran has been very eager to buy this system but the Russians have not sold it to Iran....so far. If the Russians do sell it to Iran, I would bet on Israel targeting it. That will be a true test of really how effective the much talked about ULF radar capability of the S-400 is because Israel will certainly use it's F-35s to mount such an attack. If Israel knocks out the S-400 that will be very bad for future sales prospects for the S-400 and similarly if the S-400 does shoot down an F-35 the reverse will hold true. I don't think the Russians want such a test to occur and hence they have not sold the S-400 to Iran despite Iran ready to pay full price for it. Nor have they transferred the S-400 to Syrian AD forces, as the S-400 system in Syria is operated by Russia and is not available to defend Syrian assets against Israeli attacks but is there to only defend against direct attacks on Russian forces in Syria and so there is no direct confrontation between the Israeli Air Force and an S-400 battery. Turkey will never have to use it's S-400, nobody is going to attack Turkey so long as it is a NATO country. And the next logical place that the S-400 will be tested in actual battle conditions will be India vs China. Given India's acquisition of the S-400, it is quite likely that the PLAAF's reliance on the LO J-20 will increase on the LAC. How a LO aircraft fares against the S-400 will be an interesting contest to see.
[/quote]
It seems a British f35 just had a major accident in the Mediterranean. Possiblity of russkis electronic attack looms.
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by kit »

https://www.thedefensepost.com/2021/11/ ... re-system/

Add this to the already dense Indian ADGES ., the pakis may fly into china for combat :mrgreen:
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25087
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by SSridhar »

Defence ministry clears procurement of communication equipment worth Rs 2,236 crore for IAF - ET
The Defence Ministry on Tuesday approved a proposal to procure GSAT-7C satellite and related equipment for the Indian Air Force (IAF) at a cost of Rs 2,236 crore. The procurement is being made to enhance the communication network of the IAF, officials said.

The decision to clear the procurement was taken at a meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) chaired by Defence Minister Rajnath Singh.

The DAC accorded Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) for one capital acquisition proposal of the IAF for its modernisation and operational needs amounting to Rs 2,236 crore under the category of 'Make in India', the defence ministry said.

"The procurement proposal of the Air Force was for GSAT-7C satellite and ground hubs for real-time connectivity of software-defined radios (SDRs)," it said in a statement.

It said the project envisages complete design, development and launching of satellite in India.

"Induction of GSAT-7C satellite and ground hubs for software-defined radios (SDRs) will enhance the ability of our armed forces to communicate beyond Line of Sight among one another in all circumstances in a secure mode," it added.
nits
BRFite
Posts: 1156
Joined: 01 May 2006 22:56
Location: Some where near Equator...

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by nits »

Rakesh wrote:Fantastic explanation Karan M. Thank you so much. I echo morem.

Just reading the above two posts alone clearly illustrates that the IAF made a very wise move with the S-400 acquisition.

The capability being acquired far outweighs any political price India will have to potentially pay vis-à-vis the US.

Kudos to the Modi Govt for holding its ground on this issue.
So agree and that also explains why uncle is so pissed off of we getting this capability

Karan Sir - great post as always
eklavya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2159
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 23:57

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by eklavya »

IAF gets two Mirage 2000 fighters from France to strengthen combat aircraft fleet
Amid tensions on the border, the Indian Air Force has received a boost to its fighter jet fleet as two-second hand Mirage 2000 fighter aircraft have arrived from France at its Gwalior airbase.

"The Indian Air Force has received two Mirage 2000 trainer version aircraft from France. The two aircraft were flying with their Air Force and arrived at the Gwalior airbase recently," government sources told ANI.

The aircraft would now be upgraded to the latest standards as part of the Mirage upgrade programme going on in the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, the sources said.
sajaym
BRFite
Posts: 315
Joined: 04 Feb 2019 09:11

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by sajaym »

So these must be the replacements for the 2 Mirage 2000s which crashed couple of years ago -- the HAL crash and another one involving two air marshals.

Also I guess these are the only flying ones bought, the other purchase of 24 units is only for spares even though on wiki it says differently
In September 2021, France agreed to sell its ageing fleet of Mirage 2000 at 1 Million Euro per plane to India, raising one squadron. Out of the 24 fighters to be bought, 13 are in ready to fly condition, 8 with intact engine and airframe shall fly after servicing, the remaining 11 fighters are partially complete but with fuel tanks and ejection seats, which will be scavenged to secure parts for IAF’s two existing squadrons of the fighter.
Barath
BRFite
Posts: 474
Joined: 11 Feb 2019 19:06

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Barath »

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 987855.cms

GoI : Hal to make first 4 LUH in 2022-2023. In 2 batches of 2. IA and IAF to split them .


8 more LUH from HAL in 2023-2024.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18259
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 43142?s=20 ---> Report: IAF may consider ordering more CH-47F heavy transport helicopters because of it's huge impact on mountain warfare, mobilization etc.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18259
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Defencematrix1/stat ... 25408?s=20 ---> Cockpit of the Mirage 2000-5 from @HAFspokesman. This thing is built to last, modular design enables easy maintenance and still gives relevant performance, it's a shame that @Dassault_OnAir is not offering proper upgrades and not allowing users to do it with a third party.

Image
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18259
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 51718?s=20 ---> The Indian Air Force has received two Mirage 2000 trainer version aircraft from France. The two aircraft were flying with their Air Force and arrived at the Gwalior airbase recently.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 64572?s=20 ---> Tejas MWF is crucial. These 2 Mirages merely replace losses. Greece is retiring its Mirages as is France because of logistical issues. Despite our warehousing of older units for spares, we will face issues over the next decade.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 79984?s=20 ---> For instance, Greek AF mentioned it can take months to get complex spares. We need robust, cost effective single engined fighters which don't break the budget. Only Tejas Mk1, MWF can meet this need. Even an imported MRFA will be highly expensive, acquisition, flight hours both.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/Defencematrix1/stat ... 25408?s=20 ---> Cockpit of the Mirage 2000-5 from @HAFspokesman. This thing is built to last, modular design enables easy maintenance and still gives relevant performance, it's a shame that @Dassault_OnAir is not offering proper upgrades and not allowing users to do it with a third party.
High time we got over our Mirage reliance IMHO. GreekAF is now buying Rafales to replace their older Mirages as spares are no longer easily available as the aircraft is out of production for years now. Despite the airframes we've procured, we are also going to face this issue going forward. In terms of avionics, weapons and payload, the Tejas MWF will dwarf the Mirage 2000 by a significant amount.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18259
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Karan M wrote:High time we got over our Mirage reliance IMHO. GreekAF is now buying Rafales to replace their older Mirages as spares are no longer easily available as the aircraft is out of production for years now. Despite the airframes we've procured, we are also going to face this issue going forward. In terms of avionics, weapons and payload, the Tejas MWF will dwarf the Mirage 2000 by a significant amount.
:mrgreen:

2 - 3 more Rafale units + Tejas MWF. The only way forward.

The Rafale M is coming next month to India for testing.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18259
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Of all the things to steal! :) :roll:

Mirage 2000 Fighter Jet Tyre Stolen From Truck Near Lucknow Airbase
https://www.india.com/news/india/mirage ... e-5121355/
03 Dec 2021
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

Rakesh wrote:
Karan M wrote:High time we got over our Mirage reliance IMHO. GreekAF is now buying Rafales to replace their older Mirages as spares are no longer easily available as the aircraft is out of production for years now. Despite the airframes we've procured, we are also going to face this issue going forward. In terms of avionics, weapons and payload, the Tejas MWF will dwarf the Mirage 2000 by a significant amount.
:mrgreen:

2 - 3 more Rafale units + Tejas MWF. The only way forward.

The Rafale M is coming next month to India for testing.
Hope you are right! The UAE just picked up 80 Rafale F4s.
Post Reply