Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

mody · Post by **mody** » 16 Feb 2023 20:03

The news about the 50 additional Tejas MK1A is great. Just hope they place the order as soon as possible, with HAL mandated to produce and deliver upto 24 aircrafts per year from 2026 onwards. Placing the order after the delivery of the 1st batch of 73 MK1A would kind of defeat the purpose.
The main point should be to increase the production and induction rate to close to 24 aircrafts a year, from the current projected max rate of 16 per year.

Right now even achieving 16 per year would be a feat, as HAL has barey managed to come close to 8 per year only.

The additional 50 aircrafts would mean 133 Tejas MK1A, plus 32 Tejas MK1, to be upgraded to MK1A standard as part of MLU. Plus 18-20 MK1 2 seat trainers. That's 10 squadrons.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Feb 2023 20:50

ramana wrote:How many IL-76 are there?
It will be critical to have heavy lift to support LAC operations.

I believe India acquired around 18 IL-76s in the 1980s.

That was followed up with around 6 IL-78MKIs in the early 2000s.

Then in the late 2000s, the 3 A-50 Phalcons were also inducted.

So a total fleet of around 27 aircraft. None have crashed to date.

The IAF will be looking at the Il-76MD-90A variant. So likely upgrade them to that standard.

Russia’s Aerospace Force receives upgraded Il-76MD-90A and Il-76MD-M aircraft
https://www.airrecognition.com/index.ph ... craft.html
13 Oct 2022

The Il-76MD-90A is a highly upgraded version of the Il-76MD powered by PS-90A-76 engines with a 10% lower fuel consumption, an extended flight range of up to 5,000 km with a payload of 52 tons against 4,000 km with a payload of 47 tons of the Il-76MD, as well as an expanded range of hardware and weapons. During the modernization, Il-76MD-M planes receive pieces of equipment integrated with the Ilyushin Il-76MD-90A.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 16 Feb 2023 21:38

ramana wrote:It means Air Defence Theater Command is in process.
And 100 TEDBF means total 4 carriers.
1Vikramaditya +3 Vikrant class

My numbers would be different. 45,000 Tons vessels can support approx. 45 airborne assets, 15 helicopter, that leaves 30 fixed wing. I would say at least 16 are permanently stationed on shore for training etc. That leaves enough for 3 carriers. Will we have 4 in the future, I am 100% certain. Will more TEDBF come along - yes or the next version of it. If I were to predict, our 3rd or 4th carrier could be new clear, maybe 65,000-90,000 tons, taking at least 50-60 TEDBF each.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 16 Feb 2023 21:42

mody wrote:The news about the 50 additional Tejas MK1A is great. Just hope they place the order as soon as possible, with HAL mandated to produce and deliver upto 24 aircrafts per year from 2026 onwards. Placing the order after the delivery of the 1st batch of 73 MK1A would kind of defeat the purpose.
The main point should be to increase the production and induction rate to close to 24 aircrafts a year, from the current projected max rate of 16 per year.

Right now even achieving 16 per year would be a feat, as HAL has barey managed to come close to 8 per year only.

The additional 50 aircrafts would mean 133 Tejas MK1A, plus 32 Tejas MK1, to be upgraded to MK1A standard as part of MLU. Plus 18-20 MK1 2 seat trainers. That's 10 squadrons.

I think 50 additional is to bridge the gap between when current MK1a order @16/year is completed and MK2 starts (it hurts, but MK2 is delayed). So I don't think they will be increasing the throughput. MK2 was suppose to be quick. It has exactly the same wing as MK1 (same dimension and shape). Does have canards, but per Indranil, should have been easy. It's taking time. Though in consolation Gripen E also took time.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 17 Feb 2023 00:46

fanne wrote: I think 50 additional is to bridge the gap between when current MK1a order @16/year is completed and MK2 starts (it hurts, but MK2 is delayed). So I don't think they will be increasing the throughput. MK2 was suppose to be quick. It has exactly the same wing as MK1 (same dimension and shape). Does have canards, but per Indranil, should have been easy. It's taking time. Though in consolation Gripen E also took time.

LCA Mk2 was delayed because CCS clearance and sanction of funds for Mk2 prototype development was obtained only on Sept 1 2022
Link: https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 10161.html

As for why it was so late, you can ask our political overlords.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 17 Feb 2023 01:25

Whoever fault it is, it is delayed. And yes funding delays for r&d projects are criminal. I can understand slowing imports or big ticket items, to find out what the Chandigarh lobby is doing. But R&D project delays are shameful, govt is eventually giving the money (it is not that it is saving there), but giving with few years delay - that impacts our Atmnirbharta negatively. Of course I am assuming that money is not a problem, if it is and delay is because of that, then what can you do.

Having said that, MK2 funding for 1 prototype (from multiple sources including ADA) was available from left over money from Mk1 project and was indeed utilized for making the first MK2 prototype. The drawings and tender for materials/parts were out few years ago and the belief/rumor was that the MK2 prototype (even for static display), would be out by 2022. That date has moved to 2024, magically, without any explanation. That to, when MK2 is not a big step up from MK1A (again I am deferring to the more learned gurus). AMCA/TEDBF is riskier and delays there is expected...
Anyways enough of ranting.

bala · Post by **bala** » 17 Feb 2023 02:27

I made this posting in TEDBF thread, and I think tis relevant here...

The MK2, TEDBF and I might add AMCA projects require to be hastened up in timelines. We have to start the prototype model assembly ASAP and have them flying soon. These endless iterations of design is consuming and taking too much time. The fighter jets are critical projects for India and having super good project management, that clears all roadblocks expediously is paramount. All the Govt nods should be automatic (a no-brainer). People in the project view them as their lifetime projects but the nation has other imperatives. Right now I see things operating in a "Waterfall" model instead of "Agile" model of execution. Of course it goes without saying that things should be done properly. But shaving a few things here and there can wait. Function first and then optimization later should be the mantra. The DoD Babus must loosen purse string and have several iterations in parallel. Demonstrating the two crafts quickly will put all the other import stuff in limbo mode.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 17 Feb 2023 02:36

AMCA is a very complex project with several components and subsystems beyond the basic design involving significant R&D since nothing of this sort has been attempted in India before by anyone. The PDR and CDR stages are absolutely critical to the future success of the program. Not something you can rush through. Sanctioning of funds is a bigger issue. You can see in the Mk2 thread that the CCS sanction process took a year after CDR was completed. Hope they can do that faster for the AMCA.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Feb 2023 03:22

IAF and IN have committed to 467 aircraft at Aero India 2023.
Instead of rejoicing all I see is the usual whines and by usual people.

nachiket,
Why did it take a year for CCS approval when CDR was approved? What took so long when everyone knows Mk2 is important and urgent?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 17 Feb 2023 05:55

ramana wrote: nachiket,
Why did it take a year for CCS approval when CDR was approved? What took so long when everyone knows Mk2 is important and urgent?

I don't know ramana guru. These things are typically opaque in India. You rarely get an answer for "why". Usual refrain is "dekho no money" but then billions magically appear for buying Apaches.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 17 Feb 2023 08:13

nachiket wrote:
ramana wrote: nachiket,
Why did it take a year for CCS approval when CDR was approved? What took so long when everyone knows Mk2 is important and urgent?
I don't know ramana guru. These things are typically opaque in India. You rarely get an answer for "why". Usual refrain is "dekho no money" but then billions magically appear for buying Apaches.

you don't buy apaches you don't get negotiations on 414s.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 17 Feb 2023 08:43

Muppalla wrote: you don't buy apaches you don't get negotiations on 414s.

That is a speculative justification without any evidence. We got F404's without any Apaches. And the IAF already bought 22 Apache's a while back. You're telling me the Americans specifically insisted that the IA should also buy 6 and without that they won't sell us F414's? Get real. The Americans have been willing to sell us everything short of F-35's for a while now. You don't need such quid pro quo deals to buy something like the F414 which is not even cutting edge for them.

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 17 Feb 2023 09:52

nachiket wrote:The PDR and CDR stages are absolutely critical to the future success of the program. Not something you can rush through.

+1. Also PDR, CDR, will protect the project from future scope creep which is a habit of defence procurement projects.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 17 Feb 2023 13:47

The "tech transfer" of 414 is a last ditch attempt by the Americans to have a presence in the future Indian combat aviation.

India was making progress with the Kaveri and was going to achieve success with Europeans with the joint venture engine.

If the US didn't relent the US would not even be in the picture as a even a potential joint venture partner for our future engine program.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 17 Feb 2023 16:19

Here is an alternate point of view-
Some x000 carore were left over from mk1 development. Some of that amount went towards mk1a (which was later funded separately) and mk2 itself went through 3 distinct iterations. That left over money was used for that. It was like developing 3 different planes. Some parts of mk2 May have been realized with that fund, but not enough to make the whole plane, hence mk2 has not rolled out. More fund is needed.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Feb 2023 17:32

MeshaVishwas wrote:Supposedly a new path to pull up numbers in a Swadeshi manner; ~370 IDDM jets planned

Breakup as per India Today:

* 83 (Ordered) + 50 (To be ordered) Tejas Mark-1A
* 108 (To be ordered) LCA AF Mark-2
* 126 (To be ordered) AMCA

Rejoice when the orders are placed. Having seen both the IAFs procurement folks attitude, which in recent past, at least fir some, remains short term and cynical and the GOIs tight fistedness when it comes to anything R&D and defence related. Don't get your hopes too up until the orders are actually placed.

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 17 Feb 2023 19:44

IAF develops Vayulink platform for jam-proof communication with base station

Bengaluru, Feb 16 (PTI) The Indian Air Force has come out with an innovative solution that would aid pilots in dealing with bad weather and also provide jam-proof uninterrupted communication with the base station.
Known as Vayulink, the data link communication uses the Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS) that is also known as NAVIC, to send radio communication to the base station when the signals are low, an IAF officer involved in the project said.
The important aspect of the technological solution is that it prevents fratricide or friendly fire, he added.
The IAF has put up the Vayulink gallery to give information about its platform at the India Pavilion in the ongoing Aero India 2023 here.
“Vayulink is an ad-hoc data link communication system, which when installed in an aircraft, gives position of other aircrafts close by, encrypted traffic data over secured channel,” Wing Commander Vishal Mishra told PTI.
When the planes are flying close to any friendly forces on grounds during a combat situation, the aircraft display gives the position of such forces on the ground including tanks and troops beneath, the IAF officer said.
The system can also give the pilots data on the weather, he added.
“When you are flying above the hills where there is no radio communication, the system can give you radio communication also,” Wing Commander Mishra said.
According to him, Vayulink is helpful for the Air Force, Army and Navy, while it can be given to as many government services as possible since the technology has been made within the Indian Air Force.
Wing Commander Mishra claimed that Vayulink has been developed by the Air Force only and it is a very secure system.
“The advantage of the system is when you are going into combat, it prevents fratricide. It means, you are able to know where our ground forces are present,” he claimed.
The Vayulink system also prevents aircraft collision, provides better combat teaming and helps plan real-time basis where multiple teams can get together and go towards the target coming from different areas, Wing Commander Mishra pointed out.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 23 Feb 2023 12:21

Junior Warrant Officer faces court martial for cutting auto pilot cables of MI-17 helicopter-Man Aman Singh Chhina, IE
(Disclaimer: The reporter is not someone I trust, single source only)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Feb 2023 06:20

Its on Twitter
https://twitter.com/InsightGL/status/16 ... 30562?s=20

Junior Warrant Officer of #IndianAirForce to face Court Martial for cutting cables of autopilot junction box of an MI-17 V5 helicopter

More worrisome is this one-off or systemic? Is there a gang?
How many past Mi-17 crashes can be attributed to this?

The above article says five charges.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Feb 2023 09:25

The CDS crash inquiry needs to be reviewed that such mechanics were not involved in the helicopter check out.

What if it's not cut fully so as to pass the inspections and breaks due to helicopter vibrations leading to crash?

williams · Post by **williams** » 24 Feb 2023 10:31

ramana wrote:The CDS crash inquiry needs to be reviewed that such mechanics were not involved in the helicopter checkout.

What if it's not cut fully so as to pass the inspections and breaks due to helicopter vibrations leading to a crash?

That angle needs to be investigated, it is always possible Gen Rawat touched the nerve of the import lobby somewhere. Gen VKS got into a lot of trouble when he touched on a sensitive corruption issue that happened when a PSU sold imported trucks at exorbitant prices. These lobbies seem to have extraordinary reach inside our system.

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 24 Feb 2023 10:44

ramana wrote:Its on Twitter
https://twitter.com/InsightGL/status/16 ... 30562?s=20

Junior Warrant Officer of #IndianAirForce to face Court Martial for cutting cables of autopilot junction box of an MI-17 V5 helicopter
More worrisome is this one-off or systemic? Is there a gang?
How many past Mi-17 crashes can be attributed to this?

The above article says five charges.

This case must be throughly investigated considering that Gen Rawat perished in a Mi 17 crash

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 24 Feb 2023 10:59

Reading the article.

It's one officer.

One instance of damaging the aircraft of 152 helicopter unit. Stationed at haryana and UP border.

It's possible that this individual has damaged multiple Air crafts. But reading the article along with the list of charges. They are focusing on a single event.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Feb 2023 21:58

Yes. Dont want to make it big as it means air force has compromised mechanics.
I recall there was an incident in the 1990s in Pune.

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 24 Feb 2023 22:30

About 40+ years ago I read about a mid level IAF officer being prosecuted for selling original spare in black market and replacing with conditioned stuff.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Feb 2023 01:46

ramana wrote:The CDS crash inquiry needs to be reviewed that such mechanics were not involved in the helicopter check out.

What if it's not cut fully so as to pass the inspections and breaks due to helicopter vibrations leading to crash?

The COI was conducted very thoroughly and all aspects were looked into.
It was a pure case of pilot error due to weather changes in the high hills.

Glad it was reviewed.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 25 Feb 2023 03:11

ramana wrote:Yes. Dont want to make it big as it means air force has compromised mechanics.
I recall there was an incident in the 1990s in Pune.

I dont remember Pune or not, but it was someone messing with Mig21 parts deliberately. God knows how many were never caught.
In this age and time, the technical area should be littered with CCTV with auto record for months.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 27 Feb 2023 18:00

An Indian Air Force contingent with 145 Air Warriors will be participating in Exercise #ExCobraWarrior at the RAF Waddington in UK from 06 Mar 23 to 24 Mar 23

The IAF is participating with 05 Mirage 2000; 02 C-17 Globemaster and 01 IL-78 Refueler aircraft.

The Exercise #CobraWarrior is a multilateral Air exercise in which Air Forces from Finland, Sweden, South Africa, United States of America and Singapore would also be participating alongside Royal Air Force and the #IndianAirForce

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... _dFnw&s=19

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Mar 2023 08:56

Pratyush wrote:Reading the article.

It's one officer.

One instance of damaging the aircraft of 152 helicopter unit. Stationed at haryana and UP border.

It's possible that this individual has damaged multiple Air crafts. But reading the article along with the list of charges. They are focusing on a single event.

https://indianexpress.com/article/citie ... n-8471908/

March 2, 2023 02:08 IST

This story seems to be one of a single malcontent. Who was brought up on disciplinary charges for failure to perform assigned duties. We will have to wait and see what is the verdict of the court martial.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 02 Mar 2023 14:56

https://twitter.com/RashtraNow/status/1 ... 45541?s=20 --->

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Mar 2023 21:14

chetak wrote: https://twitter.com/RashtraNow/status/1 ... 45541?s=20 --->

Saar, please put link in your post to credit the owner. I have edited your post to put the link.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Mar 2023 21:30

From HVT Sir...

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/16312 ... 18176?s=20 ---> True Vertical Climb - The FULCRUM Way.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Mar 2023 21:32

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/163 ... 17446?s=20 ---> IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari flying a MiG-29 today to celebrate 60 years of 28 Squadron 'First Supersonics' reminded us of our piece on his close-call in the MiG-29 thirty years ago with the same squadron: https://www.livefistdefence.com/iafs-ne ... ergencies/

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Mar 2023 06:38

Rakesh wrote:From HVT Sir...
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/16312 ... 18176?s=20 ---> True Vertical Climb - The FULCRUM Way.

Incredible photo. Shows the immense raw power available on the Mig-29. I doubt any other current IAF aircraft can do this straight after takeoff. Perhaps the Rafale when it is lightly loaded. I know aircraft do zoom climbs but I am not sure we can call this a zoom climb. In a zoom climb the aircraft flies level for some distance building up speed before using it to climb sharply. This thing seems to begin the climb barely beyond the edge of the runway. Only possible with a T:W ratio comfortably > 1.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 03 Mar 2023 10:08

nachiket wrote:
Rakesh wrote:From HVT Sir...
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/16312 ... 18176?s=20 ---> True Vertical Climb - The FULCRUM Way.
Incredible photo. Shows the immense raw power available on the Mig-29. I doubt any other current IAF aircraft can do this straight after takeoff. Perhaps the Rafale when it is lightly loaded. I know aircraft do zoom climbs but I am not sure we can call this a zoom climb. In a zoom climb the aircraft flies level for some distance building up speed before using it to climb sharply. This thing seems to begin the climb barely beyond the edge of the runway. Only possible with a T:W ratio comfortably > 1.

Whoa! the incredible fulcrum - is it one of the new ones with the humpback ?(if so, it says something about the raw power). The pic is real keeper too!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Mar 2023 20:52

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/livefist/status/163 ... 17446?s=20 ---> IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari flying a MiG-29 today to celebrate 60 years of 28 Squadron 'First Supersonics' reminded us of our piece on his close-call in the MiG-29 thirty years ago with the same squadron: https://www.livefistdefence.com/iafs-ne ... ergencies/

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1631 ... 42560?s=20 ---> On the occasion of the IAF No 28 Sqn 'FIRST SUPERSONICS' completing 60 years, the CAS Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari and AOC-in-C @hqwaciaf Air Marshal PM Sinha flew in a large force engagement exercise comprising of a formation of 14 MiG-29 aircraft today.

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1631 ... 00960?s=20 ---> With the induction of MiG-21 in March 1963, the Sqn heralded the arrival of the first supersonic aircraft in IAF inventory. The CAS had commanded the First Supersonics Squadron from 2001 to 2003.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 07 Mar 2023 21:46

First woman officer selected to command a frontline combat unit.

Group Captain Shaliza Dhami is now all set to take over the command of a frontline combat unit facing Pakistan in the western sector, the first woman to do so in the IAF, even as 18 women officers are now soaring high in supersonic jets as fighters pilots in the force.

Shattering yet another glass ceiling in the overwhelmingly maledominated environs of the armed forces, Group Captain (equivalent to Colonel in the Army) Dhami will take over the reins of a surface-to-air missile squadron in Punjab on March 27.

Commissioned into the IAF as a helicopter pilot in 2003, Group Captain Dhami is a QFI (qualified flying instructor) on Cheetah and Chetak choppers with over 2,800 hours of flying experience.

“Before being selected by the IAF as the first woman ever to take command of a frontline combat unit, she also served as the flight commander of a helicopter unit in the western sector. She has also been commended by the air officer commanding-in-chief on two occasions,” an officer said on Tuesday.

There are now 18 women flying fighters like MiG-21s, MiG-29s, Sukhoi-30MKIs and even the spanking new Rafales in the IAF, while the Navy has deployed around 30 women officers on frontline warships. There are also over 145 women helicopter and transport aircraft pilots in the IAF, Army and Navy.

Group Captain Dhami’s selection to command a combat unit comes at a time when 108 women have also been 3/7/23, 11:04 AM First woman officer selected to command a frontline combat unit in IAF -approved for promotion to the Colonel (select) rank for the first in “combat-support arms” and services like the Corps of Engineers, Signals, Ordnance, EME and other such branches after getting permanent commission in the Army, as was first reported by TOI in January.

“Apart from some who have low medical category or have expressed their unwillingness, many of them are progressively taking command of their units. Of them, around 50% are deployed in the highly-operational Northern and Eastern Commands,” another officer said.

While women are still not allowed to join the infantry, armoured corps and mechanized infantry, the Army is now moving ahead to commission women officers in the Regiment of Artillery, which has over 280 units handling a variety of howitzers, guns and multiple-launch rocket systems, as was first reported by TOI.

While women officers have been inducted into the over 14-lakh strong armed forces since the early-1990s, they number just over 3,900 (around 1,710 in Army, 1,650 in IAF and 600 in Navy) in their 65,000-strong officer cadre.

There are separately around 1,670 women doctors, 190 dentists and 4,750 nurses in the military medical stream.

Mollick.R · Post by **Mollick.R** » 15 Mar 2023 17:47

Brahmos misfiring into Pakistan: Wing Commander Abhinav Sharma files case against Defence Ministry and IAF chief
https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/br ... a580&ei=29

Story by Times Now Digital • Yesterday 9:27 pm

New Delhi: Wing Commander Abhinav Sharma, who was fired by the Indian Air Force following the accidental launch of a BrahMos missile that landed in Pakistan in March last year, has filed a case in Delhi High Court against the Ministry of Defence and the Chief of Air Staff, claiming that his dismissal was wrongful and that the Court of Inquiry did not allow him to defend himself.

Wing Commander Abhinav Sharma and three other IAF officers were dismissed from the service eight months ago after a court of enquiry determined they were responsible for failing to ensure the disconnection of combat connectors of all missiles loaded on Mobile Autonomous Launcher (MAL) prior to convoy movement, thus violating the combat SOP. Sharma was accused of failing to intervene to prevent the MAL from engaging in an unsafe act of launching the missile from the station, which resulted in the accidental firing.

Sharma claimed that at the time of the incident, he was assigned as an engineering officer to the squadron and was only providing professional and practical training for maintenance duties. It was pointed out that as an engineering officer, he never provided training on operational conduct, which was solely the responsibility of the commanding officer and operations officer.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 15 Mar 2023 17:55

Hope he gets a fair hearing

What's interesting is "were the Paki co-ordinates pre-fed into the system"? It seems like the missile/command-unit was in a "hot" state. The flight path was interesting to say the least, with at least 1 waypoint where it made a trajectory change.

Quite likely that some high-value target was hit, though it was not intentional

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Mar 2023 23:09

Pakistanis must have shat their pants.