Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

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Rakesh
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Brar, Good Post. You hit the nail on the head.

India has an aversion to the word alliance. And even if India returns the S-400, it will not get the F-35. Major concessions will have to be made for this and will go beyond the S-400. And that is nothing something any Indian Government will be prepared to do.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/_devildog_rv_/statu ... 15619?s=20 ---> So is it true that only selected Mirage 2000s in the Indian Air Force were fitted with ABD-2000 jammer? Image below is of 3-ship formation, with the one in foreground from No.7 "Battle Axes" Squadron, can be seen with the jammer, while the other two from No.1 "Tigers" Squadron are not.

Image

https://twitter.com/_devildog_rv_/statu ... 17026?s=20 ---> Closer look at the ABD-2000, can be identified with black coloured edges on forward antenna. It used to employ barrage method of jamming to defeat threats operating under High Band Radio Frequencies (RF). Replaced with ICMS (with yellow coloured edges on forward antenna).

Image
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by AkshaySG »

nam wrote: Availability:
Cannot do much about Mig21.May be we could look in to replacing some of the parts with modern variant and make it work till 2027?
We are already investing in to bettering rates fro Su30, M2K. Jag should not be a problem either. Don't know about Mig29.
.
Sirjee this whole debate ignited because we wanted to retire Mig 21s as early as possible and were wondering what can be done to make up for that.. And here you are trying to keep them flying till 2027

There is no modern variant to replace parts with.. All migs left are Bison and while you can tinker here and there nothing will change the fact that they are crash prone.. Trying to extend their airframe life by a few more years certainly won't help in that regards.

We already saw 5 crashes this year. If we try to stretch them till 2027 there won't be any frames left to retire.

Using them even further than the current plan of 24-25 shouldn't even be up for debate imo.. By that time we should have 3-4 squadrons of Tejas (FOC and Mk1/A) plus some of attrition replacement 29's and Su30s that are being bought. Not to mention the HAL production rate would have stabilized.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by konaseema »

Here are the actions that the government can take to quickly arrest the depleting squadron strength of IAF, so that Mig-21bis be retired by 2024. I have created the list based on how much of control we have over each one of these options.

1. Order 2 more squadrons of Tejas Mk1 after the trainers are delivered
2. Order 2 additional squadrons of Su30 MKI apart from the 12 replacements (Manufactured by HAL)
3. Order 3 squadrons of Mig-29 UPG (including the 21 Mig-29's that was already planned, provided Russia have that many unused airframes in storage)
4. Buy 2 squadrons of used Mirage - 2000's from UAE.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

How S-400 Systems Will Boost India’s Air Defence

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:...
Rakesh Garu, you have provided a lot of food for thought and material to read. Quite interesting. I will get back to you in more detail but for now have this thought:

I can only see the value of the rafale as a door buster because of it's supposed ability to cue the scalp silently via the Spectra. Maybe that USP is worth it's weight in gold to the IAF vs mobile Sam batteries. this makes the platform very survivable and unique. Afaik the mki can't do this for the Brahmos. Nor the icms 3.0 on the m2k.

I'm not sure this warrants the 114 mrfa although an additional 36 would certainly be useful.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Barar, I have no disagreement with what you are saying. If the plan is for the IAF to remain at its current level.

But I think that IAF's numerical strength has to expand substantially by 2045-50. That timeframe is 24-30 years from today.

Capacity building and manpower planning, if, started today will get us to that level by that time.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by LakshmanPST »

konaseema wrote:Here are the actions that the government can take to quickly arrest the depleting squadron strength of IAF, so that Mig-21bis be retired by 2024. I have created the list based on how much of control we have over each one of these options.

1. Order 2 more squadrons of Tejas Mk1 after the trainers are delivered
2. Order 2 additional squadrons of Su30 MKI apart from the 12 replacements (Manufactured by HAL)
3. Order 3 squadrons of Mig-29 UPG (including the 21 Mig-29's that was already planned, provided Russia have that many unused airframes in storage)
4. Buy 2 squadrons of used Mirage - 2000's from UAE.
Any new order of any jet, whether local or foreign will require minimum 3 years before 1st jet is delivered... So, any jet ordered now won't be ready until early 2025...
If you remember, Rafale purchase was announced in 2015, but deal was signed in 2016, after more than a year...
That is minimum time required between the moment when the Govt. comes up with a proposal and signing of the deal...
So realistically, if Govt. envisages purchase of any new jet today, you can expect the deal to be signed in early 2023 and initial jets start getting delivered in early 2026...

So, MIG21s getting replaced by 2024 with new orders of any jet is not going to happen...
The right time for ordering was 5-6 years back...
-
A more realistic solution is getting 2nd hand jets of a type we operate, from any country within a year...
UAE won't be getting Rafales until 2030, and they won't be selling their Mirages until then...
Any other jet from any other country will require upgradation of the jets to IAF's standard which will further delay it...
----
As I said in my previous post, we do not have any option except waiting...

We currently have 12 Su30s, 6 Jags, 3 M2ks, 3 MIG29s, 4 Bisons, 1 Tejas and 1 Rafale squadrons at full strength...
Total 30 squadrons...
We also need to keep in mind that Tejas squadrons are not yet fully deployed in frontline airbases...

1 Tejas and 1 Rafale squadrons don't have full numbers...
I don't know when they'll sign the deal for 21 MIG29s and 12 Su30s... But they can give 2 squadrons within 2-3 years of contract signing date...

Once Tejas Mk1, Rafale squadrons reach their full numbers and are fully operationalized, we will have 28 non-Bison squadrons... We can then expect the Bisons to start retiring...

And when the additional MIG29s and Su30s come, IAF will get the current strength of 30 squadrons sans Bisons... Bisons can be fully retired without effecting the overall readiness of IAF...
Either ways, I don't see Bisons flying beyond 2025...
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by hemant_sai »

Just to discuss possibilities of retiring Mig 21 by end of 2023 - in 24 months.

Obviously we have to look for planes already in-service with other countries. No time to wait for production.
Skipping possibilities with Mirage/Mig29 as those are already discussed.

F16 C/D - in-service with US and Israeli air force - if we are ready to shed our reservations around F16.

Can we go for 80/100 F16 C/D which can be later upgraded to QF16/unmanned post 2035 if budget permits.

De-link single-engine fighters from MMRCA. No Offsets and ToT as part of the deal.
Deal must happen on our terms (no usage restriction) and condition to ground/no maintenance support to paki F16 and no ammunition.

If such deal happens by mid-2022, we can certainly retire Mig-21 by end of 2023.

What we stand to loose?

1] 4BN extra budget in the equation as we are neither cancelling MMRCA and definitely not our desi programs.
2] Increased dependence on US? But it will be temporary provided we stick to our desi programs.

What we can gain? Is it worth to save our brave pilots from risky/uncertain 5 years ahead with Mig21?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Hemant, apart from the Su-30MKIs under negotiation and a small order of Rafales (2 units for now + 2 later), the only option ahead is Tejas. I was eager for the IAF to induct additional Mirage 2000s (especially to shore up No 9 Wolfpacks Squadron). But now with the Tejas Mk1A arriving, that is no longer needed. Let the UAE and Qatar sell their Mirage 2000s to whoever wants them.

Tejas Mk1A and then followed by Tejas Mk2. This current Air Chief keeps talking about AMCA to support Atmanirbhar Bharat, but AMCA will be a dead duck if the Tejas Mk2 is not inducted and that too in numbers. In every aspect of AMCA - technology, production, assembly, workforce - the Tejas Mk2 is absolutely vital. For AMCA to exist and be a viable VLO platform, the Mk2 has to come. The AMCA's lifeline is the Tejas Mk2. If this Air Chief cannot see that, that is OK. The Tejas Mk2 will arrive well after he is no longer Air Chief.

Even as Chief now, he will be unable to do anything. Why did the IAF accept the CDR of the Tejas Mk2 on 15 Nov 2021? He became Air Chief on 30 Sept 2021. Why did he not pick up the phone and threaten his DCAS - Air Marshal Narmdeshwar Tiwari - with court martial if he accepted the CDR of the Tejas Mk2? What is the plus for him, in allowing a program to continue - that we believe - he does not like? No one individual - regardless of rank - can stop the Mk2 developmental program.

Lakshman has made a number of posts with regards to the squadron strength. Setting aside Atmanirbhar Bharat, to not order the Tejas Mk2 would mean the IAF will be staring at an abyss. There is ample room for both the Tejas Mk2 and the AMCA. The math clearly shows that. Air Forces - the world over - are further developing their 4th generation platforms i.e. F-15EX, F-16 Block 70/72, F-21, F-18SH Block III, Gripen E, Rafale F4 & F5, etc. The IAF will be no different.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Cain Marko wrote:Rakesh Garu, you have provided a lot of food for thought and material to read. Quite interesting. I will get back to you in more detail but for now have this thought:

I can only see the value of the rafale as a door buster because of it's supposed ability to cue the scalp silently via the Spectra. Maybe that USP is worth it's weight in gold to the IAF vs mobile Sam batteries. this makes the platform very survivable and unique. Afaik the mki can't do this for the Brahmos. Nor the icms 3.0 on the m2k.

I'm not sure this warrants the 114 mrfa although an additional 36 would certainly be useful.
No matter what the IAF says about 114 MRFA, there is no money for it. The only way to maintain a high tempo of SEAD/DEAD missions will be to have a fleet larger than just 36 Rafales. Another 2 units now (and perhaps 2 more in the future) should be sufficient.

The Rafale does have the ability to conduct a SEAD/DEAD operation. In that post of mine, in which I quoted Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa Sir, he spoke about the importance of those missions. Once the airspace is sanitized, the IAF will operate in much more relative ease. The Chinese AD network in Tibet is very robust and is not to be taken lightly. This network will pick apart the IAF strike sorties flying into Tibet and we will lose a large number of aircraft during missions. That attrition rate will NOT be acceptable. The Rafale is very much needed to avoid that.

We can do rona-dhona on BRF as much as we like - about the cost of this plane, the IAF is import pasand, the IAF hates Tejas and whatever else - but that is not going to change anything. We need to move on from the sordid stories and IAF personnel of the past that tried to derail the Tejas program. We need to stop dwelling on that.

Check out the links below

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War_air_campaign

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressi ... n_Gulf_War

This is the Air Campaign from the first Gulf War in 1991. In this conflict, the USAF deployed the F-4G Phantom II in the SEAD role. They hammered the Iraqi air defences and literally obliterated them. As expected, the USAF (and the allies) prevailed. But despite that, there were losses. China will be more difficult. As mentioned earlier, the Rafale will not be a magic bullet. There will be losses in SEAD/DEAD missions. Rafales will be shot down during these missions and pilots will die. Any fourth generation platform - in the MMRCA, SEF or MRFA contests - will face similar losses. This is not unique to Rafale alone. A stealthy aircraft is needed for this and which we do not have right now. Till then, the Rafale (and in the future, the Mk2) will have to do this.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

If it is just an issue of keeping the Tejas lines active (during or post Mk1A production, till the Mk2 is ready for production)...then instead of additional Tejas Mk1A, I would rather go in for the Tejas SPORT. They can join the Tejas Mk2 units (as conversion platforms) when the squadrons are raised and I would love to see a Surya Kiran team composed of Tejas SPORT. Transfer the BAe Hawk back to trainer duties. Also a fleet of 6 - 8 (at minimum) Naval Tejas trainers as well and flog them on the Vikrant and Vikramaditya. Valuable data for the TEDBF team.

Churn out Tejas trainers.

The Tejas SPORT

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ernest »

Rakesh wrote:If it is just an issue of keeping the Tejas lines active (during or post Mk1A production, till the Mk2 is ready for production)...then instead of additional Tejas Mk1A, I would rather go in for the Tejas SPORT. They can join the Tejas Mk2 units (as conversion platforms) when the squadrons are raised and I would love to see a Surya Kiran team composed of Tejas SPORT. Transfer the BAe Hawk back to trainer duties. Also a fleet of 6 - 8 (at minimum) Naval Tejas trainers as well and flog them on the Vikrant and Vikramaditya. Valuable data for the TEDBF team.
....
Most sensible option given the current situation with added advantages:

1. Seeing that SPORT/LIFT will be the most successful candidate for exports, we can have another line (or 0.5 line that is currently engaged in FOC production) dedicated to this. We can ensure quick deliveries for customers from this pool if required. A larger number of oprational LIFT with IAF will help iron out any issues quicker, and show confidence for any prospective buyer.

2. The usage by IAF of the LIFT will help validate new technologies for mk2 2seat/ AMCA 2seat/ super sukhoi from cockpit, pilot workload and workflow, pilot cooperation, situational awareness POV. Will help IAF develop better tactics for 2 pilot aircraft with new generation sensor / information /communication scenario.

3. Related to above point 2, it will help IAF get quickly into exploring Man - Unmanned Teaming on combat aircraft, which in many ways is the next frontier of air warfare. CATS system by HAL is centred around Tejas LIFT, so it makes an excellent condensation nucleus for MUMT ecosystem to grow. The offensive capability addition would also be immense.

4. Will be the cheapest option, as it will utilize existing lines, and amortize much of development costs across more airframes. Boost for MIC is always a given when desi design is ordered in more numbers

Sadly, for this option to be materialize in time, we need a push from at least one top level stakeholder without delay. Someone like Shri Parrikar would have provided ample momentum on this. Otherwise, we might see this option in discussion when MK1A production is winding down. Hope someone at the right position puts their weight behind it asap.


Just my nanha rakshak thoughts
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Sirjee, you explained it far better than I did in that blurb of a post. Well said. +108 to you!

Just doing back-of-the-napkin calculations and I am coming to a 60 - 80 build program for the Tejas SPORT. That will tie in beautifully with what maitya-ji suggested (with regards to follow on 80 order of Tejas aircraft) in this very thread. He got me thinking :)

The Surya Kiran team consists of 20 BAe Hawks. So 20 SPORT there + another 40 SPORT for Tejas Mk2 conversion training + another 6 - 8 (at minimum) Naval Tejas SPORT for use on the Vikrant and Vikramaditya. That is around 66 - 68 aircraft already.

I doubt the IAF will take any additional Mk1As, as much as it makes sense. So shift the strategy.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ernest »

Rakesh wrote:Sirjee, you explained it far better than I did in that blurb of a post. Well said. +108 to you!
Thank you for the supportive words. Like other forum members, request you to not address me as Sirjee, even in jest.
Just doing back-of-the-napkin calculations and I am coming to a 60 - 80 build program for the Tejas SPORT. That will tie in beautifully with what maitya-ji suggested (with regards to follow on 80 order of Tejas aircraft) in this very thread. He got me thinking :)

The Surya Kiran team consists of 20 BAe Hawks. So 20 SPORT there + another 40 SPORT for Tejas Mk2 conversion training + another 6 - 8 (at minimum) Naval Tejas SPORT for use on the Vikrant and Vikramaditya. That is around 66 - 68 aircraft already.
Well beyond 80, if you account for exports. 20 units export is a conservative estimate only, IMO. Malaysia LIFT competition, if awarded, would be enough. In case it is goes to someone else, we will see many similar sized export opportunities in the remaining decade.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by fanne »

There are some bad assumptions/facts

1. There are already 18 two-seat trainers for 123 LCA orders (One can argue for 4th stage training for LIFT, but not needed for LCA)
2. HAL already has the third line solely dedicated to trainers (read two-seaters). They already planned ahead for it. If they showed half that urgency in either initiating ADA made MK1A mod 5 years ago (when MK1A was conceptually recognized, though not ordered) from their own funds (like in HAL made ALH, and dedicated that third line for LCA -single-seat, we may have LCA MK1A rolling off right now from the assembly line.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Barath »

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheLegateIN/ ... 0880509955

WolfPack suggests that a prominent Korean news outlet has reported IAF interest in the KF-21 Boramae.

Haven't traced the original report so it is difficult to judge degree of interest, seriousness. IMHO, KF-21 Boramae is very analogous to the TEDBF except being developed a few years early, and with some korean subsystems and missiles.

Same dual GE 414 engine, different local AESA radar, same reduced observability but not stealth approach.
Meteor missile. Then a bunch of US missiles and Korean missiles that India has no access to. A bit less payload. Local IRST and jammer.

So far IAF has shown zero interest in ORCA. If it gets attracted by KF-21 concept, then maybe a space could be found for ORCA in between Tejas Mk2 and AMCA

I think MoD will push IAF towards ORCA instead of KF-21 if it comes to that. And IN will be overjoyed as IAF interest and funding will help with TEDBF priority and R&D funding and reduced delays

IAF has a strong interest in 117 MRFA fighters, which has been part of its plan along with Tejas Mk1/Mk1A/AMCA etc. Most people think that while the MRFA is to create leverage on the preferred Rafale, but also see real problems with funding that, to the point that you may not be able to have local production or numbers (Mig 35, Gripen E/F, Boeing F/A 18 SH, Typhoon, Rafale, F21 *cough* F16V cough* , had the RFI and F15 EX and maybe now KF-21 may think of it) . KF-21 may be a potential candidate for the MRFA. It will have less capability than Rafale but may be able to have a local tie up and be cheaper.

edit: In case it was not clear, I don't see this report as a negative. If it bears out, it shows IAF is at the least looking around for brochures etc and maybe that it is thinking of cost. And I think there is too much overlap and too little benefit for this to really replace Mk2/ORCA concept.

But also because fundamentally, I do not ascribe to the fears above that IAF wants to scrap Mk2.

If you run the numbers I read it as IAF wants more Rafales (MRFA) AND Mk2. for use as part of IAF fleet in the late 2030s time frame. I also think large numbers of Tejas LIFT/SPORT Navy Mk1 trainers, SuryaKirans are a waste of money. Better put that into subsystem development, sensors and engines, or into extra Mk2 numbers. (7 Tejas orders = more money than spent on Kaveri)

The Malaysian order, if won, would suffice. If not, then there may be others (eg Argentina)

Tejas LIFT/SPORT is very important - but it is important because training is very important and the training capabilities, simulators etc need to be developed institutionally. I think it will be hard to maintain and justify Tejas LIFT at non Tejas squadrons. Maybe you can transfer some of the avionics elements or lessons learned to the 2 seaters, which should serve the purpose.. I think Tejas LIFT as part of centralized training for other fighter stream is not currently part of the plan. might have its points.

Tejas CATS is based, I think on a different avionics variant that Tejas LIFT. Tejas MAX will require a lot of avionics and UI work that will make it quite a different purpose/challenge/variantthan LIFT, to support CATS.

For Suryakiran - Hawks are cheap, robust and well understood. Suryakiran does not need supersonic aircraft, and Tejas will not need expensive make work. But I don't really care about it much either way. Either way money goes to HAL. Or money can go to R&D and ecology creation

Navy Mk1 trainers - Not sure how much this sort of training will have benefits for TEDBF pilot training - which is a completely different type and will have different type certification, and different timeline. If you get close enough, TEDBF trainers will serve the purpose. If far away on timeline, large numbers of Navy Mk1 trainers and pilots are a waste of money that can go elsewhere productively. A small number should be enough for lessons for build and operation. And given insufficient thrust of GE 404 for carrier ops, the test pilots would be enough to keep generating lessons, for build and iterations.
Last edited by Barath on 31 Dec 2021 14:25, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by S_Madhukar »

Did the Korean news outlet get confused between Indo(India) and Indonesia :rotfl: Often Koreans refer to Indonesia by short name Indo.

Nothing wrong in evaluating KF21 if only to gather requirements for AMCA ORCA just don’t buy it!
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Barath »

Maybe. But I have not found Wolfpack unreliable in past. And to give credence to the report, the IAF ACM is in Korea now and met their Minister of Defence and Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff
https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1476558376272203780

How serious is different question. Maybe the ACM was given the dog and pony show, including their pride KF-21, and asked out of casual interest or politeness. Without original or detailed reporting it is difficult to judge the context.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by SinghS »

Ajay Shukla is reporting that AMCA's internal weapon capacity is 1500 kg. That of F-35 is 2500+ kg.

isn't 1500 kg is too low a value to take into account future requirements creep?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Prasad »

Indonesia was a partner in the Korean fighter program initially.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by hemant_sai »

As long as it fits in IAF's requirements, evaluations and budget, why to worry?
And if it helps to shake Dassault to be more lenient in pricing, even better :)

I would be more curious to find the ways where we can get KAI JV in India as one of the supply chain vendor and consultant, if it could expedite AMCA Mk1 so that we can target 100 units of AMCA Mk1 between 2027-2034 (8yrs span).

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by hemant_sai »

Same for Tejas Mk2 - if at all we are ready for production by 2027,
Rather than keeping Mk1A as reason for the delaying production, Mk1A production can be limited to 1 line even if it only means just 4/6 per year.
And better start with Mk2 production with target of 120 units in 8 yrs (2027-34).

Tejas Mk2 should be the priority over Mk1A without any doubt.

My heart says this is very much possible, provided all the stakeholders come together for same vision and try their best.

Actually 2027-2034 could be the period with parallel deliveries for 300 planes of Tejas Mk2/120, AMCA Mk1/100 and MRFA (40-80). And this is impossible with current yearly budget allocation to IAF.

May be some magic will happen, economy will be doing great and GoI will decide to take the giant leap towards Atmanirbharata !!
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by hemant_sai »

sorry correction,
2027-2034 could be the period with parallel deliveries for 340 planes of Tejas Mk2/120, AMCA Mk1/100, ORCA/80 and Rafale (40).
40 Rafale from 2027-2029 and 80 ORCA from 2030-2034.

If there will be need to skip any candidate, of course 40 Rafale can be put as optional for sure :)

I think better to stop now :)
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Vayutuvan »

Rakesh wrote:And even if India returns the S-400, it will not get the F-35. Major concessions will have to be made for this and will go beyond the S-400.
Major concessions have to be made especially if India returns S-400. Americans are hard bargainers. We should never expect fairness from any powers who have something we need.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

S-400 is already deployed.
It's done. Over.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by eklavya »

https://indianexpress.com/article/expla ... n-7626388/
Each unit has two batteries, each of which has a command-and-control system, a surveillance radar, and engagement radar and four lunch trucks.
Only remaining question is, what is on the menu.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ldev »

eklavya wrote:https://indianexpress.com/article/expla ... n-7626388/
Each unit has two batteries, each of which has a command-and-control system, a surveillance radar, and engagement radar and four lunch trucks.
Only remaining question is, what is on the menu.
Each S-400 system or regiment as the Russians say contains 2 batteries. Each battery has 8 launchers. Each launcher can be loaded with either 4 of the short ranged missiles or 2 of the longer ranged missiles for a total of either 16 or 32 launches before they need re-loading. So if one system/regiment has been delivered to India so far then it will have 2 batteries and a total of 16 launchers with it. It will also have at a minimum the 91N6E and 92N6E acquisition and fire control radars respectively and the command and control module. Not known if optional UHF radars are part of the deal but unlikely given the price tag of ~$5 billion for the 5 systems.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by brar_w »

There is no S-400 configuration with 2 missiles per TEL. They are all generally 4 missiles per TEL irrespective of the missile type (though lately they've included the smaller S350 system's missiles as well but those aren't typical in Russian deployments). The C band 96L6E, the X band 92N6E, and the S band 91N6E battle management radar are the radars included in the S-400 units. All three radars are PESAs.
Last edited by brar_w on 02 Jan 2022 10:48, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ldev »

brar_w wrote:There is no S-400 configuration with 2 missiles per TEL. They are all generally 4 missiles per TEL irrespective of the missile type (though lately they've included the smaller S350 system's missiles as well but those aren't typical in Russian deployments). The two radars mentioned are the ones organic to the S-400 system.
You are probably right that each S-400 TEL can have 4 of the long range missiles (40N6/E). That's what I meant about the radars, they are organic and hence have been delivered at a minimum. Optional UHF radars though are unlikely at that price point. The general "list" price with the standard configuration appears to be ~500 MM per battery.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by brar_w »

There is no confusion at all around the number of missiles per TEL. The two long range missiles per TEL configuration for the S-400 is a myth and is likely what the S-500 will have due to the size of its missiles (with exoatmospheric capability)
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ldev »

brar_w wrote:There is no confusion at all around the number of missiles per TEL. The two long range missiles per TEL configuration for the S-400 is a myth and is likely what the S-500 will have due to the size of its missiles (with exoatmospheric capability)
I don't think missile size is the constraining factor here. I am not sure of the relative form factor of the 40N6E (400 km missile) to the SM-3 11a but the SM-3 11a has exoatmospheric capability as well. Either the 40N6E achieves it's range via a ballistic profile or the issue is radar/signal processing. I am talking with specific reference to the relative engagement envelopes vs missile form factor.

We can discuss this further in the International Aerospace thread if you wish.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by brar_w »

ldev wrote:I don't think missile size is the constraining factor here.
That's correct it isn't. And we also don't have a 2 missile per launcher long range missile configuration. It is a myth that is not backed up by any evidence from an actual S-400 deployment so its not worth discussing this at all. The 4096E configuration is still 4 missiles per TEL.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7625&p=2528968#p2528968
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ldev »

Eye on China and Pakistan, first S-400 unit deployed in Punjab
THE FIRST unit of S-400 Triumf, the state-of-the-art air defence missile system bought from Russia, has been deployed in Punjab for protection against any strike from Pakistan and China, The Indian Express has learnt.

Sources said the system has been deployed at one of the five IAF bases in the state, which borders Pakistan. The system is already available with China, which deployed it along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in eastern Ladakh amid the border standoff.
Deployment of first regiment of S-400 to be completed next month
The Indian Air Force is likely to complete the deployment of the first regiment of the S-400 Triumf missile systems at an airbase in Punjab by February, military officials said on Saturday.

They said the process of deployment of the missile system has begun and it will take at least six more weeks to complete the deployment.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Initial details of High Power Radar (HPR)
https://mark20x.blogspot.com/2018/06/in ... r.html?m=1
16 June 2018

https://twitter.com/DfIlite/status/1477 ... 26115?s=20 ---> High Power Radar for Indian Air Force. All 12 radars will be integrated with IAF's IACCS network. According to RFI, HPR will also be able to track hypersonic targets flying in parabolic (ballistic) trajectory. The radar is expected to have more than 2000 TRMs per face.

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 23971?s=20 ---> Israel's Rafael carried out re-wiring, along with the addition of computers onboard many Indian Air Force aircraft to facilitate addition of BNET SDR (Global Link) to equip them with a next generation jam proof communications and TDL capability.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Good reference article. I have added this on the first post of this thread as well.

Know Your Air Force: IAF Fighter Jet Squadrons
https://alphadefense.in/know-your-air-f ... squadrons/
12 Dec 2020
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

eklavya wrote:https://indianexpress.com/article/expla ... n-7626388/
Each unit has two batteries, each of which has a command-and-control system, a surveillance radar, and engagement radar and four lunch trucks.
Only remaining question is, what is on the menu.

:rotfl: coffee spill moment
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Vidur »

Rakesh wrote:Good reference article. I have added this on the first post of this thread as well.

Know Your Air Force: IAF Fighter Jet Squadrons
https://alphadefense.in/know-your-air-f ... squadrons/
12 Dec 2020
Incorrect

IAF has only 04 Mig 21 Bison Sqns not 07. This is public information and maybe seen in CAS statements and other official comments, answers in various fora

To be noted

One Mirage 2000 sqn is only half strength per interim authorisation and recorded as such for at least 02 decades. That is how numbers of 39.5, 30.5 and now 29.5 come into being. Tejas Sqns are authorised full strength and therefore will be recored as full sqns even if under strength
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by LakshmanPST »

Vidur wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Good reference article. I have added this on the first post of this thread as well.

Know Your Air Force: IAF Fighter Jet Squadrons
https://alphadefense.in/know-your-air-f ... squadrons/
12 Dec 2020
Incorrect

IAF has only 04 Mig 21 Bison Sqns not 07. This is public information and maybe seen in CAS statements and other official comments, answers in various fora

To be noted

One Mirage 2000 sqn is only half strength per interim authorisation and recorded as such for at least 02 decades. That is how numbers of 39.5, 30.5 and now 29.5 come into being. Tejas Sqns are authorised full strength and therefore will be recored as full sqns even if under strength
To be fair to the author of the article, the article itself is more than a year old...

And he recently tweeted this--->
Mig 21 Bisons
∆ Sq No. 3 Cobras
∆ Sq No. 4 Oorials
∆ Sq No. 23 Panthers
∆ Sq No. 51 Sword Arms
https://twitter.com/raflanker/status/14 ... ZeT5w&s=19
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