Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

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ramana
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

Rakesh wrote:'Strike first and strike farthest' is mantra for future wars: IAF Chief
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... ief-498589
18 April 2023
Chief says "See first, strike first, and strike farthest"

Is this a new doctrine or just rewording what's already in the works?

The last part means most of the force structure has to be changed.
Tribune cut off his "See first" aspect.

I would say the chief is saying the IAF doctrine has changed to handle the threat from the East.

This is not just a speech.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Strike First and Strike Farthest is the updated terminology from ACM PV Naik's (retd) days --> See First, Shoot First, Kill First.

* In the A2A role, this is long range BVR air combat (i.e. Meteor, Astra Mk2/3, SFDR, etc).

* In the A2G role, this is long range precision strike via expensive (but on-the-mark) munitions (i.e. SCALP and any Indian equivalents).

As and when VLO platforms (i.e. AMCA) start getting inducted, Strike First and Strike Farthest will take on a whole new meaning.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by drnayar »

i guess a major focus would be on sensors both air and space . Is the new Geo military satellite for the airforce ?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

Rakesh wrote:Strike First and Strike Farthest is the updated terminology from ACM PV Naik's (retd) days --> See First, Shoot First, Kill First.

* In the A2A role, this is long range BVR air combat (i.e. Meteor, Astra Mk2/3, SFDR, etc).

* In the A2G role, this is long range precision strike via expensive (but on-the-mark) munitions (i.e. SCALP and any Indian equivalents).

As and when VLO platforms (i.e. AMCA) start getting inducted, Strike First and Strike Farthest will take on a whole new meaning.
Admiral,

Is this perhaps an indicator for the reason for the reluctance in inducting more LCA's?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by isubodh »

ks_sachin wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Strike First and Strike Farthest is the updated terminology from ACM PV Naik's (retd) days --> See First, Shoot First, Kill First.
Admiral,
G
Is this perhaps an indicator for the reason for the reluctance in inducting more LCA's?
Why, when the enemy is just at the gate, why go farthest.
Pure rhetorical slogans.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote:Strike First and Strike Farthest is the updated terminology from ACM PV Naik's (retd) days --> See First, Shoot First, Kill First.

...
Admiral sir, tactical or battlefield warfare has always been about 'see first, shoot first, kill first'.. whether it be stone or sword or gun.

The 'Strike first, Strike Farthest' is the strategical/doctrinal change.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

isubodh wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:
Admiral,
G
Is this perhaps an indicator for the reason for the reluctance in inducting more LCA's?
Why, when the enemy is just at the gate, why go farthest.
Pure rhetorical slogans.
Why invest in arty and missiles as well, then!!!
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Even at the peak of cold war the USAF that had the longest reach and truly global capacity to strike. Maintained thousands of tactical aircrafts. Because they needed to deal with the masses of Warsaw pact tactical combat aircrafts.

In the Indian scenario the IAF needs to be able to deal with close to 2000 PRC and Pakistan jets combined. Supported by inflight tanking.

A few hundred strategic bombers. Coupled with thousands of cruise missiles and tactical ballistic missiles.

When faced with this situation, the chief says strike farthest.

If striking first and striking farthest is the objective, then they need to build a fleet accordingly.

AMCA has to be stopped and replaced with an aircraft with an un-refuled combat radius of 3000 kms. In order to cover most of PRC.

They also need thousands of cruise missiles with ranges exceeding 4000 kms. In order to reach out and touch most of PRC.

I am not seeing procurement priorities needed to accomplish this task.

But I am seeing comments about striking farthest.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by chetak »

Pratyush wrote:Even at the peak of cold war the USAF that had the longest reach and truly global capacity to strike. Maintained thousands of tactical aircrafts. Because they needed to deal with the masses of Warsaw pact tactical combat aircrafts.

In the Indian scenario the IAF needs to be able to deal with close to 2000 PRC and Pakistan jets combined. Supported by inflight tanking.

A few hundred strategic bombers. Coupled with thousands of cruise missiles and tactical ballistic missiles.

When faced with this situation, the chief says strike farthest.

If striking first and striking farthest is the objective, then they need to build a fleet accordingly.

AMCA has to be stopped and replaced with an aircraft with an un-refuled combat radius of 3000 kms. In order to cover most of PRC.

They also need thousands of cruise missiles with ranges exceeding 4000 kms. In order to reach out and touch most of PRC.

I am not seeing procurement priorities needed to accomplish this task.

But I am seeing comments about striking farthest.
Pratyush ji,

We simply cannot compete in terms of airpower to counter 2000 aerial platforms (and counting) supported by aerial tankers

which is why India has gone the missile route.

To cause massive damage, only a few actually need to get through, especially if they have been MIRVed.

And those few will get through, come what may.

The triad is not meant for diwali, as Modi would say...


Along with military targets, population centers, industrial facilities, in the crosshairs, will also be the cheeni water resources. Like the cheeni, we also have only one chance to hit out/retaliate

what has the cheeni worried are the Agni series and quite rightly the cheenis fear them, as indeed, they do Modi. The " rules based world order" wokes have not seen an Indian leader of Modi's caliber thus far.

This is the very first time since independence that India's testimonials have been seen.

The europeans, the britshits, the cheenis and the amrikis are "upset", to put it politely and that is why they keep squeaking about a "rules based world order" meaning their rules and their world order. They don't want newcomers like India messing up things in their backyards, even though these goras have been messing around in India's backyard since even before independence using the FFNGOs and organizations like amnesty and greenpeace and other fraud foundations and abrahamic fronted entities in the name of "giving aid"

Modi is unpredictable and fearless when it comes to the defence of the country. He is equally adept in other departments as well

Long gone are the days of crawl and creep, bend and bow, kow tow and withdraw, that was such an important part of the neverwhovian "foreign policy" where the cheenis were concerned.

A similar policy was followed with the pakis for decades since independence which is why the pakis were shell shocked when Modi shutdown the wagah border and he did to the pakis exactly what the pakis had, all along, imperiously done to India with secure knowledge that there would never be a retaliation from the banias.

peacenik (at all costs, including compromising national interests) raincoat and his bootlicking gang of MEA denizens were the faithful appeasers, placaters, and perfidious pacifists who compromised supreme national interests to do behind the scenes hindi cheeni bhai bhai.

Modi has changed the equation. It is now "hindi cheeni bye bye"
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Prem Kumar »

Frankly, when our top brass talk about stuff like 5th gen warfare, see first-strike first etc, I just feel like ROFL'ing.

They are sounding like MEA babus, who think that words will manifest into reality. That doctrine replaces action.

I don't see any plans to accomplish any of what they say. If the Chief orders large numbers of Tejas, Astras, accelerate MK2, induct AEWs etc, I will believe his words. Otherwise, these are just media soundbites
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Chetak, as we have demonstrated with Pakistan. There is considerable space between a full scale nuclear war and a full spectrum localised conventional conflict like Kargil.

The only way to deter the PRC from doing a Kargil to us is to have the capacity to defeat the PRC in a localised conventional conflict all accross the LOAC.

Compared to the length of the LOAC Kargil was not even one sector.

What happens when the PRC decides to activate all of LOAC in a scaled up Kargil.

In such a conflict the IAF will still require the ability to deny operational space for the PLAF. Is our force structure going to be sufficient in 2045-50 timeframe?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by chetak »

Pratyush wrote:Chetak, as we have demonstrated with Pakistan. There is considerable space between a full scale nuclear war and a full spectrum localised conventional conflict like Kargil.

The only way to deter the PRC from doing a Kargil to us is to have the capacity to defeat the PRC in a localised conventional conflict all accross the LOAC.

Compared to the length of the LOAC Kargil was not even one sector.

What happens when the PRC decides to activate all of LOAC in a scaled up Kargil.


In such a conflict the IAF will still require the ability to deny operational space for the PLAF. Is our force structure going to be sufficient in 2045-50 timeframe?
Pratyush ji,

this scenario has already been gamed and it will involve malacca straits, Indian ocean region, and maybe the coco islands too, among many other things. The options are many depending which pieces the cheeni move first and in what direction.

I, for one, do not expect the ching chongs to be so foolish as to burn economic bridges, and wash out permanently from a huge and lucrative market just because some ching chong punk is feeling his/her/their/them oats

this is not like the amrikis fighting in eyeraq but this war will be in Indian and cheeni lands with both sides having the options to climb up the escalatory ladder

"what if" is a game that has been played to the death.

It will be our "what if" versus their "what if"

many satellites are watching, even small troop movements will trigger matching responses from India and comparable assets will be brought in play.

better than us, the cheenis are well aware that this is not 1962 and Modi is in chair with the full support of the nation behind him. The Indian forces are blooded, competent, professional, and highly motivated and that makes for one hell of a difference. Also, our economy is in reasonably good shape with food and resources rivalling the cheeni. India can squeeze the cheeni in the pincer of the malacca straits as well as in baluchistan.

At this time, the CPEC, oil pipelines, gwadar, et al are just so many meaningless alphabets and financially detrimental to the cheeni plans, even to complete urgently. A few missile strikes can shut down the karakhoram highway by collapsing the critical tunnels and other areas en route by triggering massive landslides.

just saying onlee.

Now, we neither have a woke, know nothing, weak kneed, and egoistic political "leadership", nor an incompetently led and deliberately ill equipped army (dimwitted neverwho and his equally moronic side kick, the execrable menon who were directly responsible for the sorry state of affairs) headed by dynastic buffoons directing the battle at the front while lying sprawled comfortably in a "hospital bed" in dilli

and at this point, Modi has vastly better global PR than xi or any other cheeni will ever have.

Also, India does not expect help from any country in terms of boots on the ground. We are, well and truly, on our own.

anything but an outright win for the cheeni will mean a severe loss of face, and a moral victory for India, and that outright win is an impossibility for xi and his henchmen to achieve, no matter how anyone slices it.

And even more than Modi, the cheeni fear the enemy property act. If they attack, ALL their assets in India are under grave risk of immediate take over with no recourse, whatsoever, to courts of law. Just like the pakis were denuded of all so called "evacuee property" which they tried so very hard, and for so many decades, to protect using the lootyens gangs, the aman ki tamasha nonsense, and presstitute media in India.

any dissidents in wartime will be jugged mercilessly, no matter if he/she/it/them/they grew up eating tagliatelle with ragu

the commies, of course, will simply go underground as is their traitorous wont.

expect shaheenbagh types to raise their heads and congregate in the streets, and the soreass + BIF gangs to push for riots in the name of "peace" asking for India to "withdraw" and comply with cheeni "wishes and territorial claims" or worse, "surrender, because that is the ghandyhian way".

Since the cheeni will be attacking, our red lines are of vital importance to triggering our tailored responses. The pakis know our red lines as we do theirs. Hence conflicts under the nuke threshold is possible.

With the cheenis, one is not quite so sure if they have read the new govt and it's resolve to engage quite as clearly as the pakis have.

They still seem to live in the comfort of those compliant years when the congis ran their rancid foreign policies to the diktat of the goras and the cheeni perfected their slice and dice salami tactics....

The cheeni are doggedly trying to push India far away from the water sources in tibet and safeguard them from Indian interdiction because the cheenis are diverting waters of the tibetan rivers to the cheeni hinterland.

Our forward airbase in Daulat Beg Oldie (DBO) is of very great bother to the cheeni.

That is why the congis completely avoided using it for fear of "upsetting" the cheenis until one air marshal Pranab Kumar Barbora anyway went ahead and quietly reactivated it "without" orders. Good for him. His political bosses of the time were gutless wonders.

Those were the days when the eyetalian mafia ruled the roost in the MEA and had their pliant "house negroes" running roughshod over the Indian forces. The lineage leading up to the eyetalian mafia ruled the MEA for tens of decades, pandering ceaselessly (and shamelessly) to cheeni whims and fancies.

No wonder the cheenis are demanding a similar walk over from the Modi govt as well.


https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Chetak,


1) It's comforting to indulge in wishful thinking.

There is something called escalation ladder. If by 2045-50, PRC is able to build a military capable of dealing with the USA. Then India will also need to have a military capable of dealing with the PRC in our specific areas of operations.

But in order to bring Malacca and Coco Island into play. There needs to be sufficient force available for deployment.

Indian forces are hardly going to be able to operate any where near those areas. If they are lacking in sufficient airpower to support the Indian army operations in the mountains and defeat the PLAF on the Tibetan plateau. Indian Navy will also need sufficient sea power to deal with 4 to 6 PLAN CVBG in the Indian Ocean region.

If India doesn't have an airforce 60 to 80 % the size of PLAF. There will not be sufficient forces to deal with PLAN forces in the Indian Ocean region. In the absence of 3 to 4 full size Indian Navy CVBG and supporting surface and subsurface assets.

What i am trying to say is that the days of India being able to defend it self with 50 combat squadron and 2 light carrier's are over. It needs to start thinking about how to handle the full potential might of PRC in the 2045-50 timeframe.

2) the PRC is working to eliminate it Malacca dilemma. They are going to build a rail and pipeline network with the central Asia and the Russian far east. That weakens the fundamental chokehold India had on the Malacca straits.

That is one of the reasons why I am advocating for IAF to grow to a 200 + combat squadron force coupled with 10000 + cruise missiles with ranges of 2000 kms and above.

CATS warrior program is a step in the right direction. But the performance characteristics published for different parts of the program appear to be Pakistan centric.
Last edited by Pratyush on 21 Apr 2023 13:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by eklavya »

Russian Arms Sales to India Stall Due to Fears Over US Sanctions
Russian deliveries of military supplies to India have ground to a halt as the countries struggle to find a payment mechanism that doesn’t violate US sanctions, according to Indian officials with knowledge of the matter.

Indian payments for weapons amounting to more than $2 billion have been stuck for about a year, and Russia has stopped supplying credit for a pipeline of about $10 billion worth of spare parts as well as two S-400 missile-defense system batteries that have yet to be delivered, according to the officials, who asked not be identified due to the sensitivity of the issue. Russia is India’s biggest supplier of weapons needed to deter Pakistan and China.

India is unable to settle the bill in US dollars due to concerns about secondary sanctions, while Russia remains unwilling to accept rupees due to exchange-rate volatility, the officials said. New Delhi also doesn’t want to complete the deal in Russian rubles due to concerns about being able to purchase enough on the open market at a fair rate, they said.

India’s government has proposed Moscow use the rupees from weapons sales to invest in Indian debt and capital markets to avoid stockpiling rupees, they added, but Vladimir Putin’s government doesn’t find that appealing.

One possible solution would be to use euros and dirhams, the currencies used to pay for Indian imports of discounted Russian crude, a senior Indian government official said. However, using these currencies to pay for weapons could invite more scrutiny from the US over sanctions than oil, as well as pushing up costs due to unfavorable exchange rates for India.

Another option under discussion is a mechanism for Russia to offset purchases of Indian imports against the price of the weapons, one of the officials said. But this isn’t easy because Russia had a $37 billion trade surplus last year with India, its third-largest behind China and Turkey, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.

India’s Ministry of Defense, Ministry of External Affairs, Finance Ministry and the Reserve Bank of India didn’t respond to phone calls or emailed requests for comment. The Kremlin and Rosonboronexport, Russia’s state arms sale company, also didn’t respond to texts and emailed requests for comment.

The issue of payments for weapons has taken on more urgency of late, and dominated discussions when National Security Adviser Ajit Doval visited Moscow in January, the people said. It also featured heavily in talks in Delhi this week between Russian Deputy Prime Minister Denis Manturov and India’s External Affairs Minister Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, who said this week that the rupee settlement needed more work.

“There is also understandable concern about the trade imbalance," Jaishankar told reporters. “We need to work together with our Russian friends on a very urgent basis on how to address that imbalance."

India currently operates more than 250 Su-30 MKi Russian-made fighter jets, seven Kilo-class submarines and more than 1,200 Russian-made T-90 tanks — all of which are operational for another decade and need spare parts. Three of five S-400 missile defense systems have already been delivered.

Air Force Hit

The Indian Air Force, which depends on a Russian fleet of fighters and helicopters, is among the worst hit from the disruption in supplies from Moscow, the people said. It’s uncertain whether Russia can perform regular maintenance, they added, potentially leading to vulnerabilities along India’s borders with China and Pakistan.

The India-Russia relationship will come under further scrutiny when Prime Minister Narendra Modi hosts Group of 20 leaders in September, during which the war will be a key focus. That meeting might be holding India back from immediately ironing out the payment mechanism for weapons with Russia, the people said.

Russia remains India’s largest supplier of military hardware, though purchases have slowed by 19% in the last five years due to sanctions and increased competition from other manufacturing countries. India has carefully calibrated its response to Russia’s war in Ukraine, calling for a cease-fire while abstaining from voting on United Nations resolutions condemning the invasion.

Modi will be meeting in the next few weeks with counterparts from the US and other industrialized nations. These countries see India as a bulwark to China’s growing military and economic assertiveness, and have offered to provide defense equipment. But even so, it will take years to wean the nation off Russian weaponry while maintaining a credible defense posture.

While President Joe Biden’s administration has largely refrained from penalizing India for its dealings with Russia, including holding back on penalties for S-400 air defense system, it has taken some action. Last September, a Mumbai-based petrochemical firm Tibalaji Petrochem was added to the sanctions list by the US Department of Treasury for buying petroleum products from Iran.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Adrija »

But in order to bring Malacca and Coco Island into play. There needs to be sufficient force available for deployment.
Not sure if this will hold for much longer as a Cheeni weakpoint given the changes arising out of the RU-UKR war......... Russia is well and truly now a full replacement on the energy front vs the MidEast...
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

ks_sachin wrote:Admiral,

Is this perhaps an indicator for the reason for the reluctance in inducting more LCA's?
What the ACM is talking about is basically more Rafale type fighters. Translation: We need more Rafales. You have to sanitize the airspace you are about to enter (i.e. break down the door), otherwise the losses will be severe for our ingressing aircraft. Also required for air interception duties (i.e. to stop bombers/fighters from delivering their payloads, even from stand-off distances). The Meteor BVRAAM will play a key role in this. The S-400 - part of the Integrated Air Command & Control System (IACCS) - will also be part of this Strike First and Strike Farthest doctrine.

With regards to the Tejas, wait for the IAF reaction from the Tejas Mk1A (when inducted) ---> AESA radar, buffet of A2A weaponry (Astra, I-Derby ER, R-77, ASRAAM, Python 5), more capable than upgraded Mirage 2000I, etc. Tejas will come in sizeable numbers and in multiple variants.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

Admiral,

All that weaponry is A2A as you stated.

Not sure IAF envisages the LCA for deep strike on strategic targets.

Rambha and Katrina is we are at doctrinally.

S
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Jay »

ks_sachin wrote:
Not sure IAF envisages the LCA for deep strike on strategic targets.

Rambha and Katrina is we are at doctrinally.

S
I mean why would IAF task LCA for deep strikes when it was not developed for that purpose? But the pertinent question is for how long will IAF go on being a top heavy organizations and ignore the rest of capabilities. Currently IAF has 283 fighters which fulfill these roles and sizes, and only 320 which can be categorized as Light/Medium light. Apart from LCA, and M2000 the rest are obsolete or in Mig29'S case reaching that point in the next decade. Is there another air force on the planet which is this disproportionately catered towards heavy/long range fighter obsession? Does every sortie need a Rambha/Katrina type of aircraft? This seems that either IAF feels it needs a Ferrari for every day use, no matter what or maybe IAF is not willing/incapable of optimizing resources.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

Jay wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:
Not sure IAF envisages the LCA for deep strike on strategic targets.

Rambha and Katrina is we are at doctrinally.

S
I mean why would IAF task LCA for deep strikes when it was not developed for that purpose? But the pertinent question is for how long will IAF go on being a top heavy organizations and ignore the rest of capabilities. Currently IAF has 283 fighters which fulfill these roles and sizes, and only 320 which can be categorized as Light/Medium light. Apart from LCA, and M2000 the rest are obsolete or in Mig29'S case reaching that point in the next decade. Is there another air force on the planet which is this disproportionately catered towards heavy/long range fighter obsession? Does every sortie need a Rambha/Katrina type of aircraft? This seems that either IAF feels it needs a Ferrari for every day use, no matter what or maybe IAF is not willing/incapable of optimizing resources.
Well please speak to air hq. Their views have changed from the 80s when a Mig 21 replacement was sought to today.

I think it is wrong but …
Last edited by ks_sachin on 22 Apr 2023 07:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by RoyG »

Lca mkii has high payload capacity. Should be good multirole for strike.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

Range At full payload?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

Full payload is carried usually for short ranges.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by RoyG »

Instead of pouring all this $ into mrfa should have gone into lcamkii, standoff weapons, and new tech. But of course, there is $ to be made...
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by vimal »

Rakesh wrote:'Strike first and strike farthest' is mantra for future wars: IAF Chief
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... ief-498589
18 April 2023
OT but I’m guessing what chief meant was to strike the first import deal from the farthest possible vendor
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by bala »

Pretty good discussion by Air Marshal GS Bedi.

Can Indian Airforce Beat China? A question for which we need to see the reality of the Chinese Airforce. What are the tactical and strategic advantages. Topics: Drones, missiles, AWACs, refuelers, 42 squadron, airstrips, altitude considerations, joint exercises, theater operation, space force, satellites with ASAT and more.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

First a book review:

RAF at the Crossroads: The Second Front and Strategic Bombing Debate, 1942-1943
Greg Baughen


The events of 1942 marked a pivotal year in the history of British air power. For more than two decades the theory that long-range bombing could win wars had dominated British defense policy. The vast majority of warplanes ordered for the RAF were designed either to bomb enemy cities or stop the enemy from bombing British cites. Conventional armies and the air forces that supported them were seen as an outmoded way of waging war.

During 1941 evidence began to mount that British policy was wrong. It had become clear the RAF’s bomber offensive against Germany had, until that point, achieved very little. Meanwhile, the wars raging in Europe, Africa and Asia were being decided not by heavy bombers, but by armies and their supporting tactical air forces. Britain had never had the resources to build a large army as well as a strategic bomber fleet; it had always had to make a choice. Now it seemed the country might have made the wrong choice.

For the first time since 1918 Britain began thinking seriously about a different way of fighting wars.
Was it too late to change? Was a strategic bombing campaign the only option open to Britain? Could the United Kingdom help its Soviet ally more by invading France as Stalin so vehemently demanded? Could this be done in 1942?

Looking further ahead, was it time to begin the development of an entirely new generation of warplanes to support the Army? Should the RAF have specialist ground attack aircraft and air superiority fighters?

The answers to these questions, which are all explored here by aviation historian Greg Baughen, would help shape the development of British air power for decades to come.
What this book tells us is RAF had made wrong choices in the prelude to WWII and found its doctrine incorrect and thus its equipment not helping to win the war. They had a debate and made changes that influenced the RAF for decades beyond that war.

Coming to IAF during the prelude to the 1965 war they built a balanced combat force with fighters, ground attack, and bombers. In the 1971 war, in East Pakistan, the PAF became a penguin and hence the IAF combat force could not be used in a balanced manner. Meanwhile, in West Pakistan, the offensive was held back for political reasons, and again the IAF combat force was not used in a balanced manner. The disproportionate usage of ground attacks led to the elimination of the bomber force after the 1971 war by the subsequent Air Chiefs. The IAF became an all-jet fighter force with interceptors and ground attack or Fighter bomber force. This was fine as long as the challenger was Pakistan. In fact, there was a lot of resistance in IAF to acquisition of the Su-30MKI with its long range and heavy bomb load! The objection was the need for two aircrews! Now its the mainstay of the IAF.

In 2020 Galwan incident showed that China was the major challenger and needs a rethink of IAF doctrine and equipment. Still, the current chief is pushing for MRFA which indicates the challenge is not studied properly.
Its fortuitous that in Cope India 23 exercise the US brought the B1-B bombers so the IAF had a chance to look closely at them. Earlier before the Ukraine war TU-160s were offered by Russia but not taken up with the focus on the MRFA.
I hope the IAF brass goes off-site and has an all-hands above air commodore level(not at the same time) and come up to grips with the new challenges facing India.

Air Marshal Bedi's interview shows that after retirement gnan comes.
MeshaVishwas
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by MeshaVishwas »

#SudanConflict | In a daring operation carried out on the night of 27/28 Apr 2023, a C-130J aircraft of the IAF rescued 121 personnel from a small airstrip at Wadi Sayyidna, which is about 40 km North of Khartoum. The passengers included medical cases, including a pregnant lady; besides those who had no means to reach Port Sudan: Indian Air Force
This convoy was led by the Indian Defence Attaché, who was in continuous touch with IAF authorities all along, till they reached the airstrip at Wadi Sayyidna. The airstrip in question had a degraded surface, with no navigational approach aids or fuel, and most critically or landing lights (that are required to guide an aircraft landing at night): Indian Air Force
Approaching the airstrip, the aircrew used their Electro-Optical/Infra-Red sensors to ensure that the runway was free from any obstructions and no inimical forces were in the vicinity. Having made sure of the same, the aircrew carried out a tactical approach on Night Vision Goggles, on a practically dark night: Indian Air Force
Upon landing, the aircraft engines were kept running while eight IAF Garud Commandos secured the passengers and their luggage into the aircraft. As with the landing, the take-off from the unlit runway was also carried out using NVGs. This approximately two-and-a-half-hour operation between Wadi Sayyidna and Jeddah will go down in the annals of IAF history for its sheer audacity and flawless execution - akin to that carried out in Kabul: Indian Air Force
-ANI on Twitter
ImageImageImageImageImageImage
Superb job VayuSena!
Very proud!
(Context here)
ramana
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

Superb job. Congratulations.
SSridhar
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by SSridhar »

Really remarkable effort. Mind-blowing.
Pratyush
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Well done to the IAF and the Air crews for the professionally conducted operation.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Roop »

ramana wrote:Superb job. Congratulations.
Yes. 8)

Shiv Aroor's next book (in the "India's Most Fearless" series) should have a write-up about this incident.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by venkat_kv »

MeshaVishwas wrote:
#SudanConflict | In a daring operation carried out on the night of 27/28 Apr 2023, a C-130J aircraft of the IAF rescued 121 personnel from a small airstrip at Wadi Sayyidna, which is about 40 km North of Khartoum. The passengers included medical cases, including a pregnant lady; besides those who had no means to reach Port Sudan: Indian Air Force
This convoy was led by the Indian Defence Attaché, who was in continuous touch with IAF authorities all along, till they reached the airstrip at Wadi Sayyidna. The airstrip in question had a degraded surface, with no navigational approach aids or fuel, and most critically or landing lights (that are required to guide an aircraft landing at night): Indian Air Force
Approaching the airstrip, the aircrew used their Electro-Optical/Infra-Red sensors to ensure that the runway was free from any obstructions and no inimical forces were in the vicinity. Having made sure of the same, the aircrew carried out a tactical approach on Night Vision Goggles, on a practically dark night: Indian Air Force
Upon landing, the aircraft engines were kept running while eight IAF Garud Commandos secured the passengers and their luggage into the aircraft. As with the landing, the take-off from the unlit runway was also carried out using NVGs. This approximately two-and-a-half-hour operation between Wadi Sayyidna and Jeddah will go down in the annals of IAF history for its sheer audacity and flawless execution - akin to that carried out in Kabul: Indian Air Force
Excellent news, need to go far and wide rather than the senseless discussions that masquerade as analysis, important news and discussions in the regional tv channels in the country today.
RoyG
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by RoyG »

What kind of professions for these Indian citizens?
ashthor
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ashthor »

RoyG wrote:What kind of professions for these Indian citizens?
Many are employees and some even have business. A person i know worked in his uncles
garment factory in Sudan....he said he is lucky to be in India. He was supposed to go back.
Last time also when the fighting started he was in India on holiday.
Cyrano
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Cyrano »

IAF once again shows its a superb force bringing together and enviable mix of intel, competence, daring and determination to achieve a national objective. Kudos to IAF, DefMin & MEA !
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by drnayar »

venkat_kv wrote:
MeshaVishwas wrote:
Excellent news, need to go far and wide rather than the senseless discussions that masquerade as analysis, important news and discussions in the regional tv channels in the country today.
Even the UK is struggling with an evacuation plan... india is that proverbial mighty elephant
RoyG
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by RoyG »

ashthor wrote:
RoyG wrote:What kind of professions for these Indian citizens?
Many are employees and some even have business. A person i know worked in his uncles
garment factory in Sudan....he said he is lucky to be in India. He was supposed to go back.
Last time also when the fighting started he was in India on holiday.
Thanks. What is the reputation? Are they well respected or jealousy?
ashthor
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ashthor »

RoyG wrote:
Thanks. What is the reputation? Are they well respected or jealousy?
Will surely ask when i meet him next.
Haridas
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Haridas »

ramana wrote: .... The IAF became an all-jet fighter force with interceptors and ground attack or Fighter bomber force. This was fine as long as the challenger was Pakistan. In fact, there was a lot of resistance in IAF to acquisition of the Su-30MKI with its long range and heavy bomb load! The objection was the need for two aircrews! Now its the mainstay of the IAF.

In 2020 Galwan incident showed that China was the major challenger and needs a rethink of IAF doctrine and equipment. Still, the current chief is pushing for MRFA which indicates the challenge is not studied properly.
Its fortuitous that in Cope India 23 exercise the US brought the B1-B bombers so the IAF had a chance to look closely at them. Earlier before the Ukraine war TU-160s were offered by Russia but not taken up with the focus on the MRFA.
I hope the IAF brass goes off-site and has an all-hands above air commodore level(not at the same time) and come up to grips with the new challenges facing India..
22 yrs ago i used to ensure i give talk to my Alma mator KV high schoolers about Indian interest and long term outlook to meet it's future commensurate with it's potential. Substantial time was spent to point out that Pakistan is not Indian concern, our concern/challenge is China and USA. They need to prepare for it and have their sights fixed on correct target.

Kept doing it ever since.

Those kids are productive youth in command today, and must be recalling my out of the box preaching
Air Marshal Bedi's interview shows that after retirement gnan comes]
So very true. Perhaps they should promote Sqn Ldr to command position sooner AND retire much sooner :wink:
VinodTK
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by VinodTK »



Indian Air Force: The Future is Now ACM Vivek R Chaudhari, Chief of Air Staff with Major Gaurav Arya
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