Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

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nachiket
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by nachiket »

Thank you saars for all the information.
Kartik
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Kartik »

Rakesh wrote:P.S. Can you kindly post links to those images in your post? Thanks.
links to the images?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Kartik wrote:
Rakesh wrote:P.S. Can you kindly post links to those images in your post? Thanks.
links to the images?
I have edited your original post to show the links ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7848&p=2577679#p2577353

Pasting links to images are just for fair use...to acknowledge the source. All it takes is one over zealous editor from those sites to see a particular image was sourced from their site and they could shut the forum down.

Seetal Patel - who pays for the forum and the main BR site to run smoothy - will get slapped with a legal notice. He has been doing it non-stop for the past 25+ years since BR's inception in 1997. Don't want to make life difficult for him.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ticky »

Eastern Air Command's exercise seems to be very extensive this year. For the past 5 days 2 Su 30 have been buzzing around over the skies of Imphal and today I saw a Phalcon in the skies. C 130 observed a couple of days back
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by MeshaVishwas »

Air force unclassified doctrine was recently shared on Twitter by the official page: Download link
Still reading through it... but was pleasantly surprised to see the SpyDer SAM system is "Saksham" in VayuSena parlance.
Edit: Request Adminullahs to put this document in the first post as well. Thanks.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Kartik »

Rakesh wrote:
Kartik wrote: links to the images?
I have edited your original post to show the links ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7848&p=2577679#p2577353

Pasting links to images are just for fair use...to acknowledge the source. All it takes is one over zealous editor from those sites to see a particular image was sourced from their site and they could shut the forum down.

Seetal Patel - who pays for the forum and the main BR site to run smoothy - will get slapped with a legal notice. He has been doing it non-stop for the past 25+ years since BR's inception in 1997. Don't want to make life difficult for him.
Ah ok. Will be careful about it in the future.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

Youtube had the AOC Eastern Command visiting bases in North East.
Looked very no-nonsense chief.
Will locate the youtube video.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

IAF Doctrine 2023

https://indianairforce.nic.in/wp-conten ... pr-2MB.pdf

Please all read and discuss.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Kersi »

We had a BR Meet (Mother of all BR Meets) in Bangalore, probably 2003, where one of the guests was GOCiC IAF Eastern Command. Can one of the oldiess tell me his name ? I have forgotten. And also who else were there in that meet ? I think Wing Commander K S Suresh was present
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/162 ... 9A0doMQKPQ ---> India’s third (of five) S-400 missile regiment will shortly complete delivery, says Russian Ambassador to India, Denis Alipov.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Cyrano »

Ukraine war has made us take note of the importance of munitions stockpiling. Hope we are getting enough missiles for these S400s to last in a prolonged conflict and push Russia to produce more of these missiles under "make in India".
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

ramana wrote:IAF Doctrine 2023

https://indianairforce.nic.in/wp-conten ... pr-2MB.pdf

Please all read and discuss.

For those who want read here is a Youtube discussion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQEsLxSgqPk

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

New IAF doctrine advertises aerospace power too much. It overshadows focus on core beliefs
https://theprint.in/opinion/new-iaf-doc ... s/1369506/
14 Feb 2023

By Lt Gen Prakash Menon (Retd)
The cutting-edge elements of the IAF are fraying. The operational strategy has to be anchored in what is going to be available; calling it aerospace is aspirational for now.
========================================================================================================

Future Conflicts Will Need A Major Element of Air Power

Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Prem Kumar »

Call me a cynic, but I get an eye-roll moment anytime our IAF (or IA) chiefs talk about doctrine, next-gen warfare and other brochure stuff. Can't spend their CAPEX, twiddle thumbs while their squadrons dwindle, lose even a basic edge like BVR & AEW against Pakis, won't do jack to build our MIC, but talk the big talk!
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

Rakesh wrote:New IAF doctrine advertises aerospace power too much. It overshadows focus on core beliefs
https://theprint.in/opinion/new-iaf-doc ... s/1369506/
14 Feb 2023

By Lt Gen Prakash Menon (Retd)
The cutting-edge elements of the IAF are fraying. The operational strategy has to be anchored in what is going to be available; calling it aerospace is aspirational for now.
========================================================================================================
I am sorry the good general will not find a doctrine even if it hits him in the face.
There is a difference between doctrine and strategy which derives from it.
If it uses buzzwords that's what the future of warfare will be like. PLAAF has heavy investments in AI and such things.
Not in a million years can Chetwode Colonial trained Army to come up with a balloon to do gray zone warfare on the US.
So when IAF is trying to come out of the shell don't crib.
A doctrine lays out how they will fight.
Strategy and tactics will flow from that.
Coming up with an operational strategy based on available assets is what happens.
That's not a doctrine.

He faults it for being verbose.
Well in one sentence IAF doctrine is to kill the enemy dead.
That is what ACM Mehra told BRF.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

ramana wrote:
ramana wrote:IAF Doctrine 2023

https://indianairforce.nic.in/wp-conten ... pr-2MB.pdf

Please all read and discuss.

For those who want read here is a Youtube discussion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQEsLxSgqPk


Again do read the 2 MB document.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by MeshaVishwas »

Supposedly a new path to pull up numbers in a Swadeshi manner; ~370 IDDM jets planned

Breakup as per India Today:

* 83 (Ordered) + 50 (To be ordered) Tejas Mark-1A
* 108 (To be ordered) LCA AF Mark-2
* 126 (To be ordered) AMCA

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by fanne »

Wow
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

MeshaVishwas wrote:Supposedly a new path to pull up numbers in a Swadeshi manner; ~370 IDDM jets planned

Breakup as per India Today:

* 83 (Ordered) + 50 (To be ordered) Tejas Mark-1A
* 108 (To be ordered) LCA AF Mark-2
* 126 (To be ordered) AMCA
The video talks about Mission 470 aircraft, but the above comes to 367 aircraft. But when planned 100 TEDBF induction, it will bring it to ~ 470.

An additional 50 order of the Mk1A will be amazing and is a wish of many on the forum. Where is the source of this additional 50 Mk1A order? I did not hear it in the video.

Not directed at you Mesha-ji, but sound bytes like "Mission 470" while pleasing to the ears...the real celebration is when a confirmed order is placed. I will wait to pop the champagne, when the order is actually placed.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Prem Kumar »

https://www.livefistdefence.com/iaf-pla ... mk1a-jets/

Its up on LiveFist also, but he also does not know when this additional 50 order will materialize. If it does, it would also mean more Uttam radars

Hope they don't KLPD us after getting hopes high on Mk1a, LUH, Prachand ityadi
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Prem Kumar wrote:https://www.livefistdefence.com/iaf-pla ... mk1a-jets/

Its up on LiveFist also, but he also does not know when this additional 50 order will materialize. If it does, it would also mean more Uttam radars.
Perfect! Thank you Saar for the link. Music to my ears.

They should be placing this order as soon as possible. Please do not wait till the first batch is nearing end of production.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by MeshaVishwas »

Sorry Adm, saw this on TV, here is the full pgm, numbers quoted at 8:12 into the video

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

The 50 Mk1A order will directly impact the MRFA contest. And while the MRFA and Mk1A are two different aircraft for two different missions, the numbers will reduce the need for 114 MRFA in the short term.

Planning for this additional Mk1A order, will give renewed hope to ordering a few more Rafale squadrons for the IAF and end the MRFA tamasha once in for all.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

MeshaVishwas wrote:Sorry Adm, saw this on TV, here is the full pgm, numbers quoted at 8:12 into the video.
Saar, no apologies are necessary. Just wanted a confirmation on the numbers. Thank you so much.

You and Prem Kumar are heroes on BRF today :) Bringing such good news for us jingos.

The Air Chief confirms - in the video you posted - that the four Tejas Mk1A squadrons will replace the four MiG-21 Bison squadrons as a one-to-one replacement. Keeping my fingers crossed that No 51 Sword Arms Squadron will be re-raised with the Tejas Mk1A and serve right back in the air defence over Srinagar.

An additional 50 order will mean two retiring Jaguar squadrons can be replaced with two Tejas Mk1A squadrons.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by basant »

That's a great news, if true (and I hope it is)! Mk2 may have higher range but Mk1A itself has non-trivial range. Getting MARS would be helpful and if and when required Su-30s also can chip in with buddy refueling.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

Rakesh Need to step back and think about the 50 Mk1A plan.
Earlier the Mk2 was to be 200
Tejas run was to be 40+83+200=323 during RM Nirmala Sitaraman tenure
Now Mk1A will be 40 (mid-life conversion)+ 83= 123.
Adding 50 more and reducing Mk2 numbers to 108.
Mind you the new IAF doctrine says counter-force and counter-value targets will be attacked.
How are you going to do that with less capable aircraft?

Tejas Mk2>>Mk1A>Mk1
So this sudden reordering of the fleet indicates:
- Earlier plans were wrong
- Need more planes for air defence role with swing role for the border.

The Mk2 numbers have to increase to support the doctrine.
The last word is not out yet.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

Overall Great day.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by basant »

Ramana garu, the acquisition plan of IAF never inspired confidence. The latest numbers for Tejas Mk.2, IIRC, were like 6 sq of v1 (GE 414) and 4 sq of v2 with another engine. To quote even yesterday's news:
“We hope to roll out the first LCA Mk-2 aircraft in December 2024 and fly it the following year,” the HAL chairman said. IAF is likely to order 108 Mk-2 aircraft (six squadrons).
AMCA's quoted numbers are around 100 but now that it is known that it will require at least 7 years for its maiden flight and at least 6-8 years for IOC and to begin production later, we can safely assume that we will procure some other FGFA. It won't be easy given the sanctions on Russia and S-400 with F-35s. (BTW, Flight Global quotes HVT calling AMCA as 4.5 gen, which is unsurpising given its limited VLO.) In the mean time, the only safe bets are Su-30 MKIs (hopefully upgraded in the next few years if specs are finalized by IAF), some Rafales and bulk of Tejas Mk1/As. Focus should also be on force multipliers such as AWACS and refuelers.

If at all any sense of vision is left in the higher ups after AMCA delays, a 6th gen program may start too that may actually give a chance for India to catch up with the rest.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by nachiket »

I truly hope these Mk1A orders actually materialize. Quickly. And HAL uses the money to increase production capacity.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

Basant, Today is a great day no matter how we criticize it.
I said some time back VRC will make history.
He has chosen to be with ANB and not with imports.
The 50 Mk1A means Air Defence Command is coming and hence the relook at the requirement.

At the same time under VRC watch the doctrine was updated for counter-force and value targets.
Under his watch, the 150 SU-30MKI upgrade is decided.
As for Mk2 and AMCA numbers its for future Air Chiefs to fine tune but VRC has cast his vote for ANB.

In all this, I see another great former chief who doesn't want the limelight as the Vishwakarma.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

During Macron visit I hope the Rafale orders are firmed up.
The force needs certainty for planning.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:During Macron visit I hope the Rafale orders are firmed up.
The force needs certainty for planning.
If Rafale M is indeed the winner of the MRCBF contest, it is game over for the MRFA contest. The orders will be firmed up, but no contract will be signed. I am expecting a screwdrivergiri factory to be set up for the Rafale in India.

We are in election year and RaGa will be mightily upset over the IN's selection of the Rafale M. He will add this as well to his package of lies (Adani, earlier Rafale deal, Ambani, etc) for his election manifesto of 2024. Apart from baseless criticisms and unfounded allegations, the man has no ideas of his own to offer. It is imperative that the BJP wins and that too with a resounding majority (400+ seats is my wish).

Negotiations with France/Dassault will continue into early next year and a deal will be announced post the 2024 elections. Announce it earlier and it will cause needless distraction from the messaging for the BJP in the 2024 general elections.

Nachiket predicted this (any future Rafale contract will be signed in 2024) a while back on BRF. Kudos to him.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:Rakesh Need to step back and think about the 50 Mk1A plan.
....
The Mk2 numbers have to increase to support the doctrine.
The last word is not out yet.
Great points raised in your post. Thank You.

I really hope the Mk2 does not share the same fate as the Mk1A, with regards to orders.

If they are going to order additional Mk2s, they should do it as one bulk order (not 108 now and then X later).
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by basant »

Absolutely Ramana garu, 50 additional Tejas is a great news. :)
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

It means Air Defence Theater Command is in process.
And 100 TEDBF means total 4 carriers.
1Vikramaditya +3 Vikrant class
ernest
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ernest »

ramana wrote:It means Air Defence Theater Command is in process.
And 100 TEDBF means total 4 carriers.
1Vikramaditya +3 Vikrant class
I seem to have missed any information related to this concept. If you have links where I can read more about the Air Defence Theather Command, would greatly appreciate it.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by SSridhar »

ernest, the plan by CDS Bipin Rawat was to set up four theatre commands, two land-based , one maritime and one Air Defence Command.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by drnayar »

ramana wrote:It means Air Defence Theater Command is in process.
And 100 TEDBF means total 4 carriers.
1Vikramaditya +3 Vikrant class

There has been ideas for IN ships [ dedicated ? ] to have significant air defence capability as well including ABM roles , maybe this ties in with the theater defence capability.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by SSridhar »

ramana wrote:As for Mk2 and AMCA numbers its for future Air Chiefs to fine tune . . .
ramana, in July last year, ACM VRC had said that apart from the IAF commitment of 6 squadrons, IAF could commit another 4 squadrons after production started.
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