Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

[ramana]

There is a lot of angst on Twitter and even here as to what's going on with IAF?

Without elaborating and ruffling feathers IAF suffers like most air forces from a few factors.

It will make them effective if they keep these in mind.

History or Ethos

Air power is only a hundred years old and so how to use it is not clear yet. Its primary vision is to bomb the opponent into submission via hitting its centers deep from the borders. IOW carry on its own war. rest are all secondary missions.

Close air support where they tie air assets to the needs of the ground or sea commanders is an anathema. I suspect the resistance to Theatre commands comes from this. This dislike for close support leads to inter-service rivalries. At the same time the airforce is not keen for the army or navy to develop their own air wings be it fixed or helicopters! Another indicator was the IAF jumping in with ORCA when the IN had a firm TEDBF plan. Or the tussle for Apaches wrt Army.

Doctrine

Attacking the enemy deep into the country has been the unstated doctrine. Look at the number of Canberra acquired 4 squadrons worth. Or the push for deep strike aircraft in the 70s onwards. Or the number of Su-30MKIs! And they want dual-purpose fighter planes. Sort of Janus-minded. The deep strike dogma blinkers them to the fact that neighborhood wars are short and sharp and involve close air support We saw the contrast in 1965 and in 1971 on the different ways the air campaign went in West and East Pakistan respectively. In 1965 after the initial support at Chamb, IAF was fighting its own war. Close air support was cursory and can confirm by the type of sorties in that war. Yet just the four planes at Longewala had a deep effect on the Western sector operations. One can write pages about the two hours that changed the Western theater!

Technology

Air force is the most technical service and catches the imagination of the members and the public. Despite the doctrine, most of the planes acquired were for air combat and the early honors were for fighter pilots involved in dog fights. All this looked glamorous but in the end, did not substitute for a strategy that is to support the ground forces to the maximum extent. When the IAF was formed the initial allocation was 1 squadron for deployed division. It never looked like that in 1965 or 1971!

Management

High-tech aircraft and weapons require efficient and effective management. This was and is sadly lacking in the IAF as can be seen in its dud rate of weapons delivered, cannon jamming, and persistent acquisition of marginal systems. Like Jaguar that can't take off from high-altitude bases. No foresight in seeking Bristol Siddeley turbojet collaboration for HF-24. A persistent hands-off approach to technology can be seen no rush to integrate Astra on Tejas despite having now two squadrons which add the BVR capability of the fleet. Deploying second rung planes in a combat zone like Vampires in Chamb, or the Migs in Kargil.


Decreased Intellectual Acumen

The higher staff is no longer of the calibre of MAF Arjan Singh who reacted in less than an hour at Chamb compared to three weeks at Kargil despite being the COSC and just finished Fleet exercise in April 1999. Or ACM SK Mehra or ACM S Krishnaswamy. This seniority rubric is destroying the force and throws up leaders who are risk averse and don't make waves. All they want is a smooth procurement of whatever plane du jour is eg Jaguar, Mirage 2k, Hawk, Pilatus, Rafale, now MRFA etc. Grateful that Air Cdre Jasjit Singh created the Center for Airpower studies and AM Anil Chopra is doing a yeoman service to allow minds to develop and write papers. Strategic thinking was outsourced to IDSA.

Other Reasons

First airpower is awesome and inspires the imagination of the service and the public. The latter expects the service to be like matchless warriors(the 1965 and 1971 wars and 1999 Kargil and post Balakot Wg Cdr Abhinandan) and get disappointed when they find plodders like some chiefs who are looking for a safe sinecure. So there is an expectation mismatch.

Secondly, air warfare is highly technical and the civilians won't understand how to achieve the smallest circular error probable which delivers mission objectives. This the airforce understands the best. Yet war is not just CEP and sorties generated. It is about integrating cultural, social, economic, and political aspects with the military instrument. So can't leave war to the marshals unless they understand that the air force is to win wars.

Unhealthy Myths

IAF like all other services has a few unhealthy myths that constrain it.

Fighter pilot primacy

Looking at the service record of the chiefs a huge majority of them are from the Fighter stream. Till the mid-70s there was a bomber and navigator stream. Now helicopters and transports are the other two streams. During the 1947 Kashmir operations and 1962 Ladakh and NEFA, it was the transport stream that functioned effectively. One of the best chiefs for effectiveness was ACM P.C> Lal who was from the navigation branch. ACM Fali Major was from Helicopter stream. Don't know about others. This primacy of fighter pilots is like the Infantry focus in the Army which to be fair did promote Artillery and Armored Corps.

Myth of Army dominance

During the 1965 War, Gen J.N. Chaudhari, the COSC did not involve the IAF in the preliminary planning for Operation Riddle the response to Pak aggression. Despite PAF being quite well equipped the thinking was that by keeping the response to ground forces it would control escalation. In fact, the Navy was kept out to confine the operations to land, and no retaliation in East Pakistan despite provocative PAF raids. Chavan War dairies bring this out of the strategy of limited war in Punjab.
However, the situation in Chamb turned ugly and Army needed IAF support which was promptly provided. AM P.C. Lal the VCAS took offense to the non-inclusion and this started the myth of IA dominance over the other services. This persists to date and distorts the IAF attitude toward joint operations which are highly needed with China combining all their commands into Western Theatre command.
Theatre commands will provide the experience in handling large combat formations that will lead to CDS selection pool.

Myth of useless domestic production

IAF got their fingers burned with HF-24 which had underpowered jet engines and gun vibration problems that limited its armament. This led to their preference for import planes which continues to date. IAF forgets that it was DRDO and Israeli technicians that helped integrate the PAveway bombs used in Kargil. "You can't innovate unless you make it". Nothing is born perfect. Consistently IAF has not supported the domestic aircraft industry by choosing a hands-off policy and other disincentives.

[KSingh]

Will now start digging into the history of the 42 squadrons requirement.
AM Anil Chopra one of the finest IAF Officers and now in charge of the IAF think tank writes:
He goes on to describe the threat of a two-front war with Pakistan and China.

At the current pace of acquisitions and indigenous development, the IAF can reach the authorised 42 squadrons earliest by 2038. If India were to succeed, the IAF’s end state should be two squadrons of Mirage-2000, two of Jaguars, 14 Su-30 MKI, two of Rafale, 14 of LCA Mk I & II, two AMCA and six of the newly selected fighter, making a total of 42. That would mean building an average of 18 LCA a year.

Read more at:
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... squadrons/

What?

Jags and Mirage 2000s will be retired in the mid 2030s

2 AMCA? It’s to be 2+5


It’s absolutely disgusting and hilarious that there is ZERO official path articulated by the IAF themselves as to how they will get to their government sanctioned strength in the next 20 years. They throw around numbers almost like they are throwing darts at a board to see what will stick. And it’s equally pathetic that the civilian leadership isn’t there demanding a plan. CASs come and go but the situation remains unresolved all they are keen to reiterate is their support for 114 MRFA

Too cynical to think that they don’t want to mention sanctioned strength because then uncomfortable questions might start to be asked of them like how many LCA MK.2 could you order for the price of 114 foreign 4.5++ gen jets? (I’d imagine the number is very close to 200)

[KSingh]

Money must come from the MOD. IAF will come in only at the production stage, or just before that.

What a truly bizarre process so they have ZERO skin in the game until after the jet is fully certified? This is the same airforce that was more than happy to fork over $2BN (a hefty chunk of the LCA’s entire development budget to date) to the French for just 13 enhancements to the Rafale which wouldn’t even be delivered on the first jets that landed in India

USAF,USN,USMC,RAF etc etc we’re all pumping billions into F35 before it had even entered serial production

IAF acting like they have nothing to do with LCA MK.2 and the onus is 100% on ADA/HAL to get it right for them is entirely part of the problem.

[KSingh]

If the mighty massa is going towards Single engine fighters with F35 and new cheaper F16 derivative - why not LCA MK III. Looks like SEFs are up to 70% of the fleet.

Because Rafale is 2 engined and IAF have had their eyes on it for over a decade now

Dog with a bone

[Rakesh]

And it’s equally pathetic that the civilian leadership isn’t there demanding a plan.

I have lost faith in the current Raksha Mantri to do anything. I don't believe he is able to grasp or understand the danger Air HQ is putting the country in. After the recent brouhaha over the Air Chief's comments, it would be wishful thinking on my part if the Raksha Mantri pulled him up. Obviously we will never know, but I doubt such a conversation has ever taken place.

Now if the Prime Minister meant what he said in that speech he recently gave on Atmanirbhar Bharat, then he needs to take action.

This nonsense has to be shut down.

[Pratyush]

Is a loss of confidence in the chief a valid reason for firing?

I mean, when people lose confidence in a government, it gets voted out. So why can't the service chiefs be fired, if the government of the day has lost confidence in them.

The statement from the PM is a textbook example of a loss of confidence in the brass.

[Haridas]

Not so queer after all.

Among these would be a programme to integrate technologies developed as part of India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft [AMCA] programme into the Light Combat Aircraft [LCA], Tejas. This variant would be identified as Mark III.

"Many of these technologies could also find their way into the Light Combat Aircraft Mk. 3 that is to be more stealthy than the current Mk. 2 version, which is due to fly in the next two years with the General Electric F414 engine and be ready for operational trials in 2016. The Mk. 3 is to have up to 70% composite content, almost double the current version's level, and could be powered by India's Kaveri turbofan, if that troubled program gets back on track."

Dr. V.K Saraswat
Scientific Advisor to India's Defence MinisterWEDNESDAY, JUNE 06, 2012

IMHO significant difference between
1. AMCA technologies going into LCA
2. AMCA variant into a light single engine aircraft

First one implies built on framework of LCA.
Latter implies new design.

Let it be clear to all that LCA and its derivatives will NEVER be LO / stealth, bcoz of radar equation. Nada.

OTOH AMCA varient can/should be LO.

[Haridas]

Not so queer after all.

Among these would be a programme to integrate technologies developed as part of India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft [AMCA] programme into the Light Combat Aircraft [LCA], Tejas. This variant would be identified as Mark III.

"Many of these technologies could also find their way into the Light Combat Aircraft Mk. 3 that is to be more stealthy than the current Mk. 2 version, which is due to fly in the next two years with the General Electric F414 engine and be ready for operational trials in 2016. The Mk. 3 is to have up to 70% composite content, almost double the current version's level, and could be powered by India's Kaveri turbofan, if that troubled program gets back on track."

Dr. V.K Saraswat
Scientific Advisor to India's Defence Minister

WEDNESDAY, JUNE 06, 2012

On subject of national security, such "gassing" by exalted should be recognized and challenged when uttered.

Total cognitive dissonance!!

Here we are in 2022, 10 years after SA to Defence Minister Saraswat ji said this bokwas of operational LCA Mk2. Dr Saraswat uttering this when he firsthand knows of . Defense Minister Saint Anthony strangling Indian defense.

[Haridas]

Salutation to you for stating it concisely.
The last two paragraphs should be read 10 times by all.

Decreased Intellectual Acumen

The higher staff is no longer of the calibre of MAF Arjan Singh who reacted in less than an hour at Chamb compared to three weeks at Kargil despite being the COSC and just finished Fleet exercise in April 1999. Or ACM SK Mehra or ACM S Krishnaswamy. This seniority rubric is destroying the force and throws up leaders who are risk averse and don't make waves. All they want is a smooth procurement of whatever plane du jour is eg Jaguar, Mirage 2k, Hawk, Pilatus, Rafale, now MRFA etc. Grateful that Air Cdre Jasjit Singh created the Center for Airpower studies and AM Anil Chopra is doing a yeoman service to allow minds to develop and write papers. Strategic thinking was outsourced to IDSA.

Other Reasons

First airpower is awesome and inspires the imagination of the service and the public. The latter expects the service to be like matchless warriors(the 1965 and 1971 wars and 1999 Kargil and post Balakot Wg Cdr Abhinandan) and get disappointed when they find plodders like some chiefs who are looking for a safe sinecure. So there is an expectation mismatch.

Secondly, air warfare is highly technical and the civilians won't understand how to achieve the smallest circular error probable which delivers mission objectives. This the airforce understands the best. Yet war is not just CEP and sorties generated. It is about integrating cultural, social, economic, and political aspects with the military instrument.So can't leave war to the marshals unless they understand that the air force is to win wars.

[Haridas]

And it’s equally pathetic that the civilian leadership isn’t there demanding a plan.

I have lost faith in the current Raksha Mantri to do anything. I don't believe he is able to grasp or understand the danger Air HQ is putting the country in. After the recent brouhaha over the Air Chief's comments, it would be wishful thinking on my part if the Raksha Mantri pulled him up. Obviously we will never know, but I doubt such a conversation has ever taken place..

India is in midst of war w/communist China.
Hard to fire service chief in midst of war.

If it was 2 years ago the Air Chief would be ignominious history.

[basant]

On subject of national security, such "gassing" by exalted should be recognized and challenged when uttered.
...
Here we are in 2022, 10 years after SA to Defence Minister Saraswat ji said this bokwas of operational LCA Mk2. Dr Saraswat uttering this when he firsthand knows of . Defense Minister Saint Anthony strangling Indian defense.

To be fair to VKS, he did a lot more good than this claim. Besides, what Mk2 was meant in earlier years was very different from what currently it is. It was to be re-engined with minimal changes to the airframe. And as usual, IAF kept changing SQRs to get it into MCA category. That was akin to Gripen Demo with GE-414 that had supercruise capability, not the Gripen-E.

[basant]

Decreased Intellectual Acumen

The higher staff is no longer of the calibre of MAF Arjan Singh who reacted in less than an hour at Chamb compared to three weeks at Kargil despite being the COSC and just finished Fleet exercise in April 1999. Or ACM SK Mehra or ACM S Krishnaswamy. This seniority rubric is destroying the force and throws up leaders who are risk averse and don't make waves. All they want is a smooth procurement of whatever plane du jour is eg Jaguar, Mirage 2k, Hawk, Pilatus, Rafale, now MRFA etc. Grateful that Air Cdre Jasjit Singh created the Center for Airpower studies and AM Anil Chopra is doing a yeoman service to allow minds to develop and write papers. Strategic thinking was outsourced to IDSA.

Ramana garu, though I agree with the essence of the post. IIRC, the mirages were not equipped then for precision attacks (that too at such heights), so it was upgraded during the war. OTOH, carrying out attack on land in not so challenged air space (considering limited radar coverage) would be easier. That Mirages were not already capable to carry precision strikes is itself a reason to condemn the priorities in the force.

[Haridas]

To be fair to VKS, he did a lot more good than this claim.

Objectivity requires separate /independent assessment of different things/tasks a person does. It is not a sum game.

Even in Bharatiya sabhyata/darshan the principal of "karma phal(fal)" is ==
time in enjoyment of Swarg for all punya karma,
AND
time in torment in Narak for paap.

It is not a positive/negative weighing scale decision on the dispatcher "Chitragupta"

As an aside Dr Saraswat knows enough Inglis to know the meaning and gravity of the projection in his speech.

[Haridas]

Decreased Intellectual Acumen

The higher staff is no longer of the calibre of MAF Arjan Singh who reacted in less than an hour at Chamb compared to three weeks at Kargil despite being the COSC and just finished Fleet exercise in April 1999. Or ACM SK Mehra or ACM S Krishnaswamy. This seniority rubric is destroying the force and throws up leaders who are risk averse and don't make waves. All they want is a smooth procurement of whatever plane du jour is eg Jaguar, Mirage 2k, Hawk, Pilatus, Rafale, now MRFA etc. Grateful that Air Cdre Jasjit Singh created the Center for Airpower studies and AM Anil Chopra is doing a yeoman service to allow minds to develop and write papers. Strategic thinking was outsourced to IDSA.

Ramana garu, though I agree with the essence of the post. IIRC, the mirages were not equipped then for precision attacks (that too at such heights), so it was upgraded during the war. OTOH, carrying out attack on land in not so challenged air space (considering limited radar coverage) would be easier. That Mirages were not already capable to carry precision strikes is itself a reason to condemn the priorities in the force.

Saar, You miss the forest for tree, where does that post of ramana talk of Kargil or Op Safedsaagar? Completely OT. Like tactical vs strategic.

[basant]

IMHO significant difference between
1. AMCA technologies going into LCA
2. AMCA variant into a light single engine aircraft

First one implies built on framework of LCA.
Latter implies new design.

Let it be clear to all that LCA and its derivatives will NEVER be LO / stealth, bcoz of radar equation. Nada.

OTOH AMCA varient can/should be LO.

You are correct. Despite the quotes, I think the statements are abridged. What he said was:

a. Many of these technologies could also find their way into the Light Combat Aircraft Mk. 3 that is to be more stealthy (not VLO) than the current Mk. 2 version and be (Mk2) ready for operational trials in 2016 (makes some sense for improvement in RCS, perhaps a bit like TEDBF?)

b. "The Mk. 3 is to have up to 70% composite content, almost double the current version's level, and could be powered by India's Kaveri turbofan, if that troubled program gets back on track." (a concept jet for which no deadline was suggested)

If he did suggest Mk3 would be flying in 4 years, that would be dubious to say the least. However, we had many debates as to why DRDO knowingly makes such extraordinary claims for deadlines. Some argued that without such claims no funding would be given and imports would be preferred. Such issues would never make IAF and DRDO happy about partnership, while MoD pretends to be dumb enough not to see what is going on. This kind of spurious deadlines is true with ISRO too and SSLV is a classic example. It was announced that the first flight would be in 2019 itself (IIRC within a year of the announcement of the program itself), and then blamed COVID (which ISRO has been doing for across the board delays) for delays. In fact, ISRO even conned (for lack of a better word) a US company by booking a slot for the first flight.

[KSingh]

And it’s equally pathetic that the civilian leadership isn’t there demanding a plan.

I have lost faith in the current Raksha Mantri to do anything. I don't believe he is able to grasp or understand the danger Air HQ is putting the country in. After the recent brouhaha over the Air Chief's comments, it would be wishful thinking on my part if the Raksha Mantri pulled him up. Obviously we will never know, but I doubt such a conversation has ever taken place.

Now if the Prime Minister meant what he said in that speech he recently gave on Atmanirbhar Bharat, then he needs to take action.

This nonsense has to be shut down.

Lost confidence? I never had much confidence in him, frankly since Parrikar india has been without a serious Def Min.

Where even is Rajnath half the time? He seems to completely MIA and the services are running the show. Not sure where civilian oversight has gone. In pretty much every other ministry the minister is hands on and even the PMO plays an active part on even day to day affairs- listen to any interview from Piyush Goyal about how he used to run railways or how he runs Commerce now. He’s tracking things on real-time basis and actively engaged until early hours of the morning

MoD seems to be a beast unto itself

[ramana]

Contrary to popular perception RNS is a very effective RM.
However, Manohar Parrikar is a tough act to follow.

[nachiket]

Contrary to popular perception RNS is a very effective RM.

Sir this assessment is based on what evidence? I'm not being rhetorical, I genuinely wish to know what his achievements are as RM.

We have to bear in mind that while it is refreshing to see and hear the PM speak so strongly in favor of Atmanirbharta in Defence procurement, it will not make any difference if that talk is not backed with large orders for indigenous systems. In many other ministeries we can see the respective minister making serious efforts to realize the PM's vision for that sector, like KSingh mentioned. Atmanirbharta in Defence might be the most important of them all but such urgency seems to be missing from the Defence Ministry entirely. If the RM cannot deliver on that he should realize that he is out of his depth, a man who landed the job merely because he was an important political leader who needed to be rewarded with a top position and step aside for someone who can.

[ramana]

He listens and acts on it.
He is the RM not as a reward.
Have to trust.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... Cz6Yu8Dhlg ---> Report: IAF to deploy S-400 squadron at China front in 2-3 months. Deliveries already underway.

[konaseema]

You have seen ministers loosing their jobs under our PM. The PM has also made a not so subtle comment on how the forces should come out of their addiction for foreign equipment. Moreover every minister is different and RM has his own style, I guess. Patience is the key for us and these changes will manifest itself over the next few years. The current RM will never be a Manohar Parikar and the sooner we realize, the lesser the heart burn!

[ks_sachin]

He listens and acts on it.
He is the RM not as a reward.
Have to trust.

Trust is earned Ramana and konaseema you speak as if we have infinite time.
Gangrene has set in but this govt has not the gumption to make bold moves and when it does it scores an own goal.

[basant]

[suryag]

KS_sachin garu not sure how familiar you are with the inner/day to day workings, but having spent about 10 weeks working across those corridors of power I have seen the amount of landmines laid by different actors. Sitting on the sidelines without having worked in the setup we can always say the GoI should grow a pair but you know the pain when you are working in that setup(reminds me of saba karim talking about the shots that SRT should have played when he was working as a commentator). The catharsis is gradual and I believe RNS ji is doing better than NS may be as good as MP. It takes time to turn an oil tanker unless you are Stalin and start sending everyone to timbuktu.

[ks_sachin]

Suryag,
I think that post caught me in one of my sombre moods.

So thanks for getting the right perspective back.

But to answer your Q yes I covered local gov and state legislature sessions and crime for about 5 years when I worked in Bangalore.

So one part of me always is wary and considers politicians across party lines - with a few exceptions- scoundrels and generally of the same feather.

[suryag]

Thanks you KS garu, my experience was mildly stressful as I had to reread/edit my recommendations multiple times to make it safer for me and this was only for a temp stint.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... JZAuXLILPw ---> Report: India has ramped up the pace of construction of airfields and helipads along the LAC stretching from Ladakh in the west to Arunachal Pradesh in the east.

[ShivS]

What a truly bizarre process so they have ZERO skin in the game until after the jet is fully certified? This is the same airforce that was more than happy to fork over $2BN (a hefty chunk of the LCA’s entire development budget to date) to the French for just 13 enhancements to the Rafale which wouldn’t even be delivered on the first jets that landed in India.

Apples and oranges - both countries have a different budget structure that reflects capabilities.

In both cases he programs get funded - the F35 program or the Tejas program. In the US case the air force has a long and involved history of funding programs where the private sector does the work on a highly competitive basis. so the program funding goes to the air force and it manages the program.

In India the work will be done by the ADA - there is no other competent agency. So the budget for the program can be via the IAF budget (included in it) or directly from the MoF (may be clubbed with the DRDO budget).

In either case the program would get funded from the government.

At this point the most pressing question would by - why no participation by HAL? It's future is tied to this aircraft and it has the resources to contribute.

[Rakesh]

At this point the most pressing question would by - why no participation by HAL? It's future is tied to this aircraft and it has the resources to contribute.

That is incorrect. HAL is a manufacturer, not an aircraft designer. The design work has to be done by ADA with inputs from the IAF.

HAL can (and is) invest in the jigs, the tools, the labour force, the infrastructure, etc to set up the manufacturing.

That has already begun ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7689&start=1840#p2556318

But the longer the IAF continues to vacillate over the numbers of the Tejas Mk2, that much longer it will take for HAL to decide how resources need to be invested in the program. Give a firm order upfront and then the rest of the ecosystem can do its job.

https://twitter.com/EpicRotis/status/15 ... NmxmWfrOjA --->

HAL: "We will scale production rate based on orders"

IAF: "We will scale orders based on production rate"

[ramana]

How many Mig 21s are there now?
India upgraded 125 planes to Bison standard
They are slated to be decommissioned in 2025.
Info as of Dec 2021 when there was a crash in Barmer

The mishap once again shifts the focus on IAF’s oldest fighter plane fleet, its safety record, and India’s efforts to retire the aging jets with newer ones. The IAF has four squadrons of MiG-21 Bison, each with 16 to 18 fighter jets. In the next three to four years, the last of these upgraded MiG-21s is likely to be phased out.

[nachiket]

The situation of the two seat trainers (UM) must be even worse since they did not receive the Bison upgrade and are the oldest Mig-21's among the ones still left. The UM's are essentially 2-seat trainer versions of the MF, all of which have been retired by the IAF a while back.

[ks_sachin]

The IAF top brass has its head in the sand. I am tired of these flights by successive chiefs and every fighter jock singing praises of the Mig 21 being a pilot's aircraft.
Time fighter jocks realised that they are not in an adventure sports business but in a much more serious business.

[ramana]

We asked Enqyoob what does Mig-21 bring to a fight that Tejas does not?

In his inimitable style he replied

The MiG-21 can reach Mach 2+, IIRC. For a few seconds or so. This is what enabled Abhinandan to get behind the F-16 well inside Pak territory. From deep UBCN Anal-e-Sys of that scramble and mission, it is clear that he must have used afterburner to catch up, which is why he ran out of fuel shortly afterwards and bailed out, leaving the plane to glide as best it could to a *FLAT HORIZONTAL* smackdown (very clear from the trail and the wreckage, and lack of a total fire). Pointed eastwards towards Indian Border. None of the “Pak mijjile took out tail of the MiG” garbage holds up to basic scrutiny. But before that he had already fired at point-blank range up the musharraf of the F16 and made very sure. I also think the F-16 was totally surprised. So until the missiles become Mach 6 etc, the Mach 2 ability is quite absent except maybe in the Su-30MKI. Even Mirage2K and Rafale don’t go that fast.

So if I were a fighter jockey Jarnail I would want a MiG-21 in my repertoire. No easy want out of that, and current F-404 LCA ain’t getting anywhere close. Nor will F/A-18. Nor F-35. Only F-22 of the present lineup does over Mach 2. Else get F-15.

To which I replied it's moot if you have capable BVR and WVR missiles.
Mach 2 gets you fast to the intercept but if your air defence system is good you will arrive at intercept point.

Let's see.

[neerajb]

I was listening to Finnish (?) pilot's experiences with Mig-21(fighter pilot podcast). If the afterburner is not disengaged on a Mig-21 after takeoff, it goes dry in 7 minutes! Host asked him the max allowed time on afterburner. He said not needed as it goes out of fuel before the engine overheats. Also, Whenever such Mach 2 flights are done, the aircraft needs to be pointing in the general direction of recovery airbase as there won't be much fuel left to maneuver.

[Pratyush]

The logic shared by Enquiob is sound WRT the energy imparted by the launch platform. But the argument that the mig21 is unique in this respect amongst the fighters of the IAF is deeply flawed.

1) Every aircraft in service with the IAF has the ability to fly at Mach 2.0 or higher. With the exception of the Jaguar.

2) air to air combat unless both sides are flying straight and dumb towards each other doesn't permit a supersonic BVR missile launch at each other. As the moment aircrafts start maneuvering against each other come down to sub sonic speeds very quickly and then the victor is decided by who has the ability to regain energy lost during manuvering.

3) the advent of 4th generation WVR AAM has made the ability of high energy manuvering relatively unimportant. Because the missiles engagement envelope is too broad for 4th generation platform to escape it. This in turn makes something like an upgraded mig 21 armed with off bore sight AAM still very capable in turning fight.


Having said all the above, the Mk1A is going to be more capable than any other fighter in the IAF. As it is ours and we can do as we please with it.

[arvin]

https://www.livemint.com/news/iaf-going ... 98385.html

With multiple crashes involving its vintage Russian combat aircraft fleet MiG-21 flighter jets, reports arrived that the Indian Air Force is now going to retire one more squadron of the MiG-21 Bison aircraft by 30 September.

Pressure mounting on IAF to phase out the jets due to avoidable loss of lives.

[KSingh]

How many Mig 21s are there now?
India upgraded 125 planes to Bison standard
They are slated to be decommissioned in 2025.
Info as of Dec 2021 when there was a crash in Barmer

The mishap once again shifts the focus on IAF’s oldest fighter plane fleet, its safety record, and India’s efforts to retire the aging jets with newer ones. The IAF has four squadrons of MiG-21 Bison, each with 16 to 18 fighter jets. In the next three to four years, the last of these upgraded MiG-21s is likely to be phased out.

https://twitter.com/ksingh_1469/status/ ... 6-oEy7C4Yg


When you actually think about this situation it’s sickening. Young men (and women) having to climb into these death traps every day whilst their senior most commander goes around in Delhi rambling only about the MRFW which, if it even happens, won’t deliver a single jet to the IAF before the end of this decade. The same CAS who won’t even mention LCA unless prompted


LCA MK.1A was ready to be signed in 2018, it wasn’t until March 2021 when the ink was put to paper because IAF refused to agree to HAL’s package price, eventually they basically accepted the position HAL proposed in 2018. Had they ordered the MK1As in 2018 deliveries would’ve commenced last year


But IAF/GoI go around acting like this is the biggest conundrum in human existence and unsolvable

[KSingh]

https://www.livemint.com/news/iaf-going ... 98385.html

With multiple crashes involving its vintage Russian combat aircraft fleet MiG-21 flighter jets, reports arrived that the Indian Air Force is now going to retire one more squadron of the MiG-21 Bison aircraft by 30 September.

Pressure mounting on IAF to phase out the jets due to avoidable loss of lives.

3+ year lead times after contract is signed, there’s no quick solutions to this mess that they’ve created for themselves


They’ll probably use this as justification to push ahead with MRFA

[ramana]

Srinagar based IAF MiG-21 Bison squadron ( No. 51 sqn 'Sword Arms') to be decommissioned this September.

After retirement of MiG-21s from AFS Srinagar, Tejas will be given air defence, interception, DCA responsibility of Kashmir sector.

[Rakesh]

Still on course with the same plan

Any additional Tejas Mk1/Mk1A orders will take three years for delivery. Those 21 MiG-29s are also going to take three years. The only solution available right now (within a year or even six months if the IAF is seriously interested) are those 11+ Qatari Mirage 2000s. The UAE ones are still a few years off, unless the UAE is a generous mood and hands them all over right away. I doubt that.

Indian Air Force to retire all squadrons of MiG-21 by 2025
https://english.newstracklive.com/news/ ... 230-1.html
29 July 2022