Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

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Pratyush
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

http://idrw.org/iaf-plans-to-retire-mig ... r-by-2034/

There is something seriously wrong with the force planning of the IAF.

I was under the impression that the upgraded Mig 29s would have endured till mid 30s. The IAF is forwarding the schedule by nearly a full decade. But without any commitment to an indigenous product. If the plan's are right then it opens up space for 3.5 additional Mk2 squadrons.

Or are they thinking that GOI is going to open the purse strings for 200+ imported fighters?
konaseema
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by konaseema »

ldev wrote:
nachiket wrote:The past crash record of the Mig-21 is irrelevant. The issue is the aircraft being flown way past its use by date despite an indigenous alternative being available. Even if the past record was stellar the fact does not change that the aircraft is clearly unsafe right now.
As far as the Mig 21 being way past it's use by date is concerned, there is no doubt I agree. As far as indigenous alternatives being available, I think the Mk1A has the offensive and defensive aids i.e. AESA radar, SPJ, BVR and WVR missiles etc. in being a viable alternative as and when it is goes into production. As far as the Mk1 is concerned, I would say that at the minimum it needs a self protection jammer before it can be used an interceptor, specially because it does not have the speed to go cold when the MAW goes off. Has a SPJ been integrated as of now in either of the 2 squadrons that are flying the Mk1? I have not been following the LCA closely so I do not know. Because if the day after Balakot taught any lessons I would say that the SAP-518s on the SU-30MKIs were helpful. Since it has the ELTA-2032 radar the logical SPJ will be the ELTA-8222 pod......and eventually when the MK1s get retrofitted with the Uttam radar, then the logical SPJ will be DRDO's SPJ.
If that is what IAF thinks then we have a bigger problem. IAF is trying to replace the costume of someone who is just wearing an underwear (Mig-21) with a custom stitched suite (Rafale with 13 ISE) because a safari suite is not good enough (Tejas Mk1). They need to learn from their enemies or worst learn from themselves (aka China or Su30 MKI). IAF has already shot itself on one of its feet by ordering just 40 Mk1 and 73 Mk1A. They are about to shoot their other feet by not ordering more Mk1A and not going all in on Mk2. It may come to a point where the Indian Govt signs a deal with HAL for 2-4 additional squadrons of Mk1A and 10-12 squadrons of Mk2 (with or without the IAF), once the first flight of the prototypes of these 2 Tejas versions take the skies. I don't see another way with IAF's top bosses living in their lala land, where 114 MRFA's are being flown by IAF pilots.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by LakshmanPST »

Pratyush wrote:http://idrw.org/iaf-plans-to-retire-mig ... r-by-2034/

There is something seriously wrong with the force planning of the IAF.

I was under the impression that the upgraded Mig 29s would have endured till mid 30s. The IAF is forwarding the schedule by nearly a full decade. But without any commitment to an indigenous product. If the plan's are right then it opens up space for 3.5 additional Mk2 squadrons.

Or are they thinking that GOI is going to open the purse strings for 200+ imported fighters?
This is what I wrote in this post here in point no. 1--->
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7689&p=2558570#p2558570

I feel IAF is trying to push the case for MRFA by showing artificial squadron shortage by 2030... It is just my conspiracy theory...
Last edited by LakshmanPST on 31 Jul 2022 23:04, edited 1 time in total.
SidSoma
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by SidSoma »

May be they will get new Naval Fighters and IAF take over the 45 29s .... Who knows
uddu
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by uddu »

It's the right time for the political leadership to make out a public statement that "The Government is ready to double the orders of LCA MK1A and MK-II squadrons placed by the IAF so that legacy fighters can be disposed off in a faster manner leading to safety"
YashG
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by YashG »

LakshmanPST wrote:
Pratyush wrote:http://idrw.org/iaf-plans-to-retire-mig ... r-by-2034/

There is something seriously wrong with the force planning of the IAF.

I was under the impression that the upgraded Mig 29s would have endured till mid 30s. The IAF is forwarding the schedule by nearly a full decade. But without any commitment to an indigenous product. If the plan's are right then it opens up space for 3.5 additional Mk2 squadrons.

Or are they thinking that GOI is going to open the purse strings for 200+ imported fighters?
This is what I wrote in this post here--->
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7689&p=2558570#p2558570

I feel IAF is trying to push the case for MRFA by showing artificial squadron shortage by 2030... It is just my conspiracy theory...
IAF and probably the defence establishment is likely deeply infiltrated by foreign agencies. The way we have frozen our acquisition of LCAs, LUHs, LCHs and what not. It seems the grand plan is to force the country to be in such a situation that country will have to end up importing. It is in favor of west to bring situation on LAC to a point where India will hv no other choice.

Only government can stem the rot here, which is unlikely to happen. So we are doomed perhaps.
VinodTK
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by VinodTK »




Delay in Tejas MK1A acquisition - who is accountable? IAF forced to fly Mig-21
Karan M
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

ramana wrote:Telling indictment of IAF higher command.

Over 400 of the 872 MiG-21s progressively inducted since the 1960s have been lost in accidents since 1971-72, killing over 200 pilots and 50 civilians on the ground
Coming to last crash, it was the Type 69 two seat trainer that was never upgraded.

About 10 to 12 survive.
We should analyze the 400 crashes and see how many ae the trainers?

In last 6 crashes in 2021 and 2022 I believe 2 are Trainers. And in Rajasthan.
What prevents the IAF from ordering the TEJAS LIFT in numbers? Both training and combat requirements can be met. Let them make the case to the GOI and ask for funds.
Instead they were planning on weaponizing the obsolete Hawk, which is literally defenceless against a sustained opposition.
Karan M
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

SSridhar wrote:By starving the Tejas of orders and perforce continuing with Mig-21s, the IAF High Command has been playing with fire to get their much desired foreign MMRCA/MRFA. It is a game plan that went awry in this case. The conspicuous omission of Tejas Mk 2 in the very first speech of the incumbent Air Chief raised suspicion immediately but some gave him the benefit of doubt. The IAF High Command, past and present, must bear full responsibility.
In any other country, the Mk1 itself would be ordered in number, the claims that the Mk1A was essential to salvage it, dont pass muster given we have managed with maintenance hogs like the MiG-29, never mind the much heavier transports and what not. Sadly we have no independent procurement decision making and auditing arm that can see through all of the IAF's flawed decision making which puts its own pilots at risk. The Mk1A could have been simplified and many of the updates it features could have been staged later. The IAF bankrupted itself ordering a mere 36 Rafale. The price for that was delayed orders for the Tejas and many other crucial procurements like the Flanker upgrade, AWACS, IFR etc. $12Bn in upfront capex + local base infra (several billion $ more) is not a joke. The IAF literally blew many years of budgeting over one purchase. IMHO, accountability from all aspects of Govt is essential, including the services procurement. Otherwise, we will continue to see Peter being robbed to pay Paul. Cant have two squadrons fly Rafale while many more fly platforms that are safety hazards. All the arguments apart, and many were made on BRF itself to support the MiG-21 in IAF service, all of us who unequivocally support the IAF have to admit the platform has cost the nation oceans of blood, and should have been retired ages ago. Even an IOC Tejas could have performed the strike mission with the same armament a non upgraded MiG-21 or even an upgraded MiG-27 or Jaguar could do. Yet we continued flying M/MF/FL despite their lousy safety record.

And then we want to replace these with Rafales or some import which will bankrupt the IAF and the exchequer. The same IAF leadership in the past cribbed about Tejas development cost to whit. Ridiculous we wont order a "bread and butter" Tejas while ordering a deluxe 5 star meal like the Rafale, while ignoring alternatives that could have allowed both medium-high end technology to enter service simultaneously. This situation cant be allowed to continue. You cant have options like the Tejas Mk1A now available and simultaneously crib about declining squadron numbers.

If you still wont order the Mk1, then boost Mk1A numbers, accelerate the production rate so more MK1As are delivered earlier. Commit to Mk2 openly. The PM was right and he was blunt, import addiction is a real issue and it needs to be fixed.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by basant »

+100
skumar
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by skumar »

Karan M wrote: In any other country, the Mk1 itself would be ordered in number, the claims that the Mk1A was essential to salvage it, dont pass muster given we have managed with maintenance hogs like the MiG-29, never mind the much heavier transports and what not. Sadly we have no independent procurement decision making and auditing arm that can see through all of the IAF's flawed decision making which puts its own pilots at risk. The Mk1A could have been simplified and many of the updates it features could have been staged later. The IAF bankrupted itself ordering a mere 36 Rafale. The price for that was delayed orders for the Tejas and many other crucial procurements like the Flanker upgrade, AWACS, IFR etc. $12Bn in upfront capex + local base infra (several billion $ more) is not a joke. The IAF literally blew many years of budgeting over one purchase. IMHO, accountability from all aspects of Govt is essential, including the services procurement. Otherwise, we will continue to see Peter being robbed to pay Paul. Ridiculous we wont order a "bread and butter" Tejas while ordering a deluxe 5 star meal like the Rafale, while ignoring alternatives that could have allowed both medium-high end technology to enter service simultaneously.
At risk of being banned :D , I have to hold the current Modi regime, which was in absolute power for 8+ years with no dependency on any "external" support, squarely responsible for this mess.

The buck has to stop with the GoI even if it passes through the IAF. Budget should have increased to firm up 200+ MK1A orders 2-3 years back. We are the frogs boiling in the water now. If Parrikar was alive, it may been different.

This tendency to avoid conflicts with internal stakeholders stemming from the top has resulted in the IAF being underprepared for the coming conflicts looming on the horizon.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by skumar »

Karan M wrote:...
If you still wont order the Mk1, boost Mk1A numbers, accelerate the production rate. Commit to Mk2 openly. The PM was right and he was blunt, import addiction is a real issue and it needs to be fixed.
Modi should have done this 2-3 years back and fired a couple of CAS like ACM Dhanoa. No use crying over spilt milk now, time has gone and we can only mitigate impact to an extent.
Karan M
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

Sirji,
Nobody gets banned for sharing their views in a civil fashion and w/o agenda.
IMHO it has taken Modi every bit of political capital to manage the domestic agenda. Defence ideally needed a full time RM with a unique mix of technology and also decision making acumen. We had that person in Parrikar sir, sadly, that kind of person is hard to replace.
When Modi govt came in, they were fed a whole lot of non stop opprobrium about DRDO, R&D, DPSUs and what not. Told massive imports were the only way forward. Even so after a period of time, they've realized what is what and are now focusing on atmanirbharta and fixing the import addiction issue. Decisions they made then on missile program have given us QRSAM, and many other programs. Funds availability to order in bulk remains a challenge.
Yes, Modi led GOI is very conservative about expenditure and it is an issue. However, nor have we gone down Sri Lanka or Bangladesh or Paks path, economically speaking, despite the pandemic and multiple challenges.
No point in crying over spilt milk or pointing fingers at any CAS, what's done is done, main thing now is to speed up things and do the right thing now. Hope at least now, GOI funds the Tejas program to the hilt and cuts off this dangerous import pipeline.
Literally everything the IAF wants off the table is with someone else as well, whether it be the S-400 or Rafale. In a broad sense, these systems come with their broad capabilities already known to several of our adversaries (current, potential).
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

skumar wrote:
Karan M wrote:...
If you still wont order the Mk1, boost Mk1A numbers, accelerate the production rate. Commit to Mk2 openly. The PM was right and he was blunt, import addiction is a real issue and it needs to be fixed.
Modi should have done this 2-3 years back and fired a couple of CAS like ACM Dhanoa. No use crying over spilt milk now, time has gone and we can only mitigate impact to an extent.
ACM Dhanoa was brilliant in planning Balakot and dealing with Pakis. I will always have respect for him.

Plus he pushed the Government the right way regarding getting back Abhinandan, he also called political leadership a spade, a spade and showed the cowardice displayed in Nov 2008.

I don't know how we can talk of dismissal of such distinguished IAF chief.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by konaseema »

While IAF was confident of flying sorties along the LAC with the Rafale's they haven't shown the inclination to do so with the Tejas MK1 IOC or FOC which are still stationed at Coimbatore (AFS Sulur) if I am not wrong. I think there is some capability that is still missing with Mk1 that is preventing the IAF from deploying them along the LoC or LAC. Can some of the gurus help me understand? There is no reason for IAF to fly the Rafale's without the 13 ISE's if they wanted them so badly on them and not do the same with the Mk1's. How long does it take for IAF to devise their operational plans on a new platform? When was the first IOC standard Mk1 delivered and when was the 16th IOC standard Mk1 delivered? How many moths / years have passed since?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

konaseema interesting question.

I think that while 45 sq was set up in 2016 it only would have achieved full operational status after 2018 when it moved to Sulur.
An IOC AC will not be put in harms way if it can be helped.
All the air exercises that the LCA has participated in has shown what it is capable of.
However there was a reason that the AC was in Sulur and that was while the 45 Sq came up to speed and 18 sq started getting equipped HAL was close by to support in the maintenance of the AC. Now with sufficient operational hours and training of the engineering staff the IAF seems to be confident in moving the LCA North and perhaps using that as an ORP platform.
The Rafael while missing the ISE was fully operational while the IOC LCA was still being integrated with some weapons (that is why it is IOC). Please read up on what limitations are put on an IOC aircraft.

But don't go by newspaper articles - flying sorties and where you fly them is based on a squadrons / WINGs AoR. So it is not just Katrina who is flying there but also the Rambhas etc. If and when a LCA sq becomes part of a Command they will be tasked with what ever operational roles are envisaged.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by bala »

Karan M wrote:The IAF bankrupted itself ordering a mere 36 Rafale. The price for that was delayed orders for the Tejas and many other crucial procurements like the Flanker upgrade, AWACS, IFR etc. $12Bn in upfront capex + local base infra (several billion $ more) is not a joke. The IAF literally blew many years of budgeting over one purchase. IMHO, accountability from all aspects of Govt is essential, including the services procurement.

Ridiculous we wont order a "bread and butter" Tejas while ordering a deluxe 5 star meal like the Rafale, while ignoring alternatives that could have allowed both medium-high end technology to enter service simultaneously.
This topic needs to be discussed. Karanji, I am emphasizing in Bold & Underline, since I have always had an uneasy feeling about the Rafale purchase made by India. I am not doubting its capability and whatever criteria IAF drew up for selecting the bird. But I always felt that the money was blown on gold-plated import wherein the money could have gone towards Tejas or other alternates. A little more time, and India can have its own capable bird. India has the top cover in Su-30MKI and augmenting/upgrading it is higher priority than anything else.
ks_sachin
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

^^^Add the apaches to the mix.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Kersi »

Pratyush wrote:http://idrw.org/iaf-plans-to-retire-mig ... r-by-2034/

There is something seriously wrong with the force planning of the IAF.

I was under the impression that the upgraded Mig 29s would have endured till mid 30s. The IAF is forwarding the schedule by nearly a full decade. But without any commitment to an indigenous product. If the plan's are right then it opens up space for 3.5 additional Mk2 squadrons.

Or are they thinking that GOI is going to open the purse strings for 200+ imported fighters?
Yes. Thats what it could be
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Kersi »

uddu wrote:It's the right time for the political leadership to make out a public statement that "The Government is ready to double the orders of LCA MK1A and MK-II squadrons placed by the IAF so that legacy fighters can be disposed off in a faster manner leading to safety"

:D :) :D :) :D :) :D :)
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by kit »

I am starting to think all those exchanges and exercises with US has led to " tactical" thinking mindset of IAF and no long term strategic concerns. .. does these influence IAF decisions on procurement ?.. you bet they do . How can we address this
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Kersi »

Karan M wrote:
SSridhar wrote:By starving the Tejas of orders and perforce continuing with Mig-21s, the IAF High Command has been playing with fire to get their much desired foreign MMRCA/MRFA. It is a game plan that went awry in this case. The conspicuous omission of Tejas Mk 2 in the very first speech of the incumbent Air Chief raised suspicion immediately but some gave him the benefit of doubt. The IAF High Command, past and present, must bear full responsibility.
In any other country, the Mk1 itself would be ordered in number, the claims that the Mk1A was essential to salvage it, dont pass muster given we have managed with maintenance hogs like the MiG-29, never mind the much heavier transports and what not. Sadly we have no independent procurement decision making and auditing arm that can see through all of the IAF's flawed decision making which puts its own pilots at risk. The Mk1A could have been simplified and many of the updates it features could have been staged later. The IAF bankrupted itself ordering a mere 36 Rafale. The price for that was delayed orders for the Tejas and many other crucial procurements like the Flanker upgrade, AWACS, IFR etc. $12Bn in upfront capex + local base infra (several billion $ more) is not a joke. The IAF literally blew many years of budgeting over one purchase. IMHO, accountability from all aspects of Govt is essential, including the services procurement. Otherwise, we will continue to see Peter being robbed to pay Paul. Cant have two squadrons fly Rafale while many more fly platforms that are safety hazards. All the arguments apart, and many were made on BRF itself to support the MiG-21 in IAF service, all of us who unequivocally support the IAF have to admit the platform has cost the nation oceans of blood, and should have been retired ages ago. Even an IOC Tejas could have performed the strike mission with the same armament a non upgraded MiG-21 or even an upgraded MiG-27 or Jaguar could do. Yet we continued flying M/MF/FL despite their lousy safety record.

And then we want to replace these with Rafales or some import which will bankrupt the IAF and the exchequer. The same IAF leadership in the past cribbed about Tejas development cost to whit. Ridiculous we wont order a "bread and butter" Tejas while ordering a deluxe 5 star meal like the Rafale, while ignoring alternatives that could have allowed both medium-high end technology to enter service simultaneously. This situation cant be allowed to continue. You cant have options like the Tejas Mk1A now available and simultaneously crib about declining squadron numbers.

If you still wont order the Mk1, then boost Mk1A numbers, accelerate the production rate so more MK1As are delivered earlier. Commit to Mk2 openly. The PM was right and he was blunt, import addiction is a real issue and it needs to be fixed.
If only thuse who matter follow even 10% of what you have written then.................
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Neela »

Karan M wrote:
SSridhar wrote:By starving the Tejas of orders and perforce continuing with Mig-21s, the IAF High Command has been playing with fire to get their much desired foreign MMRCA/MRFA. It is a game plan that went awry in this case. The conspicuous omission of Tejas Mk 2 in the very first speech of the incumbent Air Chief raised suspicion immediately but some gave him the benefit of doubt. The IAF High Command, past and present, must bear full responsibility.
In any other country, the Mk1 itself would be ordered in number, the claims that the Mk1A was essential to salvage it, dont pass muster given we have managed with maintenance hogs like the MiG-29, never mind the much heavier transports and what not. Sadly we have no independent procurement decision making and auditing arm that can see through all of the IAF's flawed decision making which puts its own pilots at risk. The Mk1A could have been simplified and many of the updates it features could have been staged later. The IAF bankrupted itself ordering a mere 36 Rafale. The price for that was delayed orders for the Tejas and many other crucial procurements like the Flanker upgrade, AWACS, IFR etc. $12Bn in upfront capex + local base infra (several billion $ more) is not a joke. The IAF literally blew many years of budgeting over one purchase. IMHO, accountability from all aspects of Govt is essential, including the services procurement. Otherwise, we will continue to see Peter being robbed to pay Paul. Cant have two squadrons fly Rafale while many more fly platforms that are safety hazards. All the arguments apart, and many were made on BRF itself to support the MiG-21 in IAF service, all of us who unequivocally support the IAF have to admit the platform has cost the nation oceans of blood, and should have been retired ages ago. Even an IOC Tejas could have performed the strike mission with the same armament a non upgraded MiG-21 or even an upgraded MiG-27 or Jaguar could do. Yet we continued flying M/MF/FL despite their lousy safety record.

And then we want to replace these with Rafales or some import which will bankrupt the IAF and the exchequer. The same IAF leadership in the past cribbed about Tejas development cost to whit. Ridiculous we wont order a "bread and butter" Tejas while ordering a deluxe 5 star meal like the Rafale, while ignoring alternatives that could have allowed both medium-high end technology to enter service simultaneously. This situation cant be allowed to continue. You cant have options like the Tejas Mk1A now available and simultaneously crib about declining squadron numbers.

If you still wont order the Mk1, then boost Mk1A numbers, accelerate the production rate so more MK1As are delivered earlier. Commit to Mk2 openly. The PM was right and he was blunt, import addiction is a real issue and it needs to be fixed.
Karan-ji,
I have mentioned this before - if we make the IAF leadership as a stakeholder in the financial decisions, they are forced to justify. make them sweat it out. And there is a chance to highlight ASQR , historical engagement of t he IAF with ADA/HAL. I mean, isnt it normal for leaders to take part in the AOP and present the multi-year roadmaps . Imagine a management of a company today indicating a plan to build 12 new brownfield plants for expansion in their Annual report only to climbdown later to make it 6? . The arms-length attitude shows a discontinuity between IAF and MoD that is hard to bridge - the structure needs to change. What is dangerous is that IAF and government talking via media . Yes, as a foreign OEM vendor , you would worry quite a bit when you hear the message from the PM. But still , there has to be a coordinated messaging instead of IAF shooting from external shoulders.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by skumar »

Aditya_V wrote:ACM Dhanoa was brilliant in planning Balakot and dealing with Pakis. I will always have respect for him.

Plus he pushed the Government the right way regarding getting back Abhinandan, he also called political leadership a spade, a spade and showed the cowardice displayed in Nov 2008.

I don't know how we can talk of dismissal of such distinguished IAF chief.
I am sorry if I got triggered hearing him trying to indirectly put the blame for the crash on the pilots -- "..fighters are fitted with ejection seats and you are supposed to get out ..". You can hear it yourself and let us know what you think.

This was a loose, ill thought out statement coming from a man who led the country's AF.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZycN6YBCqec&t=30s

This was followed by "..at the age of 62, just about 15 or 20 days before my retirement, I went and flew the Mig21. Why would I take such a risk.."
Again, he seems to imply that the fault is not with the maintability of the aircraft but with the flying.

Like 99.9% of folks here, I am not qualified to comment on the strategic brilliance of the CAS.

My comments are based on ACM Dhanoa's loose comments as per above and the fact that he chooses not to show any confidence in the country's indigenous production - he could have flown a Tejas instead. "..just about 15 or 20 days before my retirement, I went and flew the Tejas.." would have made a huge difference. He could have agreed to order 3-4 more squadrons of the Tejas, allowed HAL to build more lines and retire the Mig21s earlier, which the AF is doing now anyway and proving his bravado wrong.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

Neela sir, agree completely. The issue is the IAF thinks of the Tejas as merely one of a smorgasbord of options that can be license assembled locally. It has never been *their* aircraft. Merely one made by ADA, HAL as OEMs whom the IAF doesn't trust to their needs. And then at the end of the day, they act as if it has to be compared to whatever is available ex-import. Its hilarious, and in the worst possible way, to hear IAF folks (not all, but definitely some) justify this as being necessary to save taxpayer funds. If they had that intention, it would be a no contest from day one, given Tejas, a huge proportion of which, is made locally. Pardon me for being blunt, but I, many of us are middle aged now, and name-calling IAF supporters like me with "armchair this, that" or "civilian nobody etc" no longer accounts as a persuasive argument for us to pipe down.

No, its actually they only think the "best" technology comes from abroad, and it is this "best" technology that allows them to dominate on the battlefield and for this prior CAS et al have cited the Bekaa valley conflict as an example. They did so to make the point the civilians pressurising the IAF to buy local were misguided. For those who think I am being unfair - there are citations to back up what I have stated.

In fact when the IAF does do so, it makes even me wonder what they are talking of. Bekaa valley was won by situational awareness, heavy ISR, EW and state of the art sensors and missiles backed up by heavy use of cheap UAVs to trigger Syrian AD - has the IAF invested likewise in support assets? We know the answers there. They induct highly expensive platforms en masse, like the Flanker, and then sit tight on a MLU and ask for completely new platforms for ensuring aerial dominance. Can anyone guarantee the current Rafale will somehow dominate future J-20 variants? What if it can't? What will we import then?

The platform in most conflicts, was but part of a much larger equation. In their quest for the best platform, the IAF bankrupted itself and has only 2 squadrons of the Rafale to show for it. Any other AF with similar budgetary restrictions would spend its $14-15 Bn far more frugally, seeking to get less expensive platforms but upgrade them with state of the art sensors, weapons stockpiles and SAMs. In contrast, the IAF has chosen to go after assets which are literally gold plated, price wise, and are still not the best out there. The Rafale entire acquisition costs are at the level of a F-35, logistics and platform both included. Not even the French would call the Rafale a stealth aircraft. Point being if the Rafale has to go deep into China or elsewhere, it needs support assets which the IAF can't afford.

The IAF's belief that imports will be available has led it to make suboptimal decisions time and again. They only ordered two Netra, judging the program would fail or be suboptimal. When it came good, they had no plan in place to order the third Netra and transfer it to themselves. By the time they thought of that, Embraer was under a cloud because of corruption allegations and as of yet, havent come across any reports stating that the third AEW&CS could be modified by Embraer to take the desi electronics, and get certified for the IAF. As a result, the IAF only has two Netra AEW&CS, and three Phalcons, all on the IL-76 which is a challenge to maintain and fly round the clock, so spares have to be husbanded for conflict.

Even after the Netra program succeeded, it took the PMO and the then CAS RK Bhadauria, a test pilot with a keen understanding of combat technology development, to sign off on the truncated Netra Mk2 program. Prior AHQ planners were apparently neither supportive nor truly interested in the highly capable AWACS-India program, which would have given them a world-leading platform to manage into the 2040s and beyond even against VLO targets by virtue of its L-Band. At least now we have this program underway, which will still be very capable. But the point is how we undersell ourselves.

Today, the stepmotherly treatment meted out to the Tejas Mk1 then Mk1A (we will take only 40, then forced to take 73+10 when HAL pointed out to Shri Parrikar that they could only set up a new line for at least 80 more airframes overall) and then the Tejas Mk2 - not committing to it in public, and trying to reserve funds for the MRFA is incredible. They have zero interest in understanding how badly they are letting down their own ambitions by taking the numbers downwards, and ensuring the manufacturing ecosystem necessary to support future plans goes nowhere.

Meanwhile, as a mark of how different the more pragmatic PAF is, they are still trying their level best to upgrade the JF-17 itself. A PAF veteran writes in AFM:
The Block I and II JF-17s suffered from structural strength issues, resulting in the platform’s having limited stores and load-management
capabilities. However, the increased use of composite materials (especially in the wing root and on both upper/lower surfaces) enables the Block III to carry a wider variety and number of weapons. With its aforementioned reinforced structure, in the air-to-air category, two PL-15 or SD-10
AAMs can be railed on each MML – incorporated on outboard underwing stations. Current plans will see an additional missile carried on the centreline station, meaning the Thunder can carry up to five BVRAAMs. This brings the stores management system to an increased number of ten items,
with PL-10Es or PL-5Es on the wingtip stations.
Note the additional strengthening will mean the JF-17s aero performance will suffer. It will add weight. Yet, the PAF, being a mature air arm, is willing to tradeoff that likely loss in aero capability vs improved payload and weapons package. Before that they took 100 odd Block-1,2 aircraft of mediocre capability, understanding that even those would be a huge improvement over their Mirage 3, 5, J-7 fleet.

The IAF instead flew MiG-21 MF/F/FL and Bis, literally to exhaustion.The contrast in decision making could not be more stark. On the one hand, a resource starved AF which has had access to the best western tech in the past, realizing its only path lies through progressive localization, despite a mediocre, underwhelming platform. Realizing it can be fielded in number and can overwhelm IAF plans. Which they almost pulled off, by sending larger numbers of JF-17s vs a mere 2 IAF Mirages, which is what we could afford to have on station, of a limited fleet size of upgrades.

Here, the IAF has a much superior platform in the Tejas Mk1 itself, but chose to again have it heavily upgraded, to a standard no other IAF plane has bar the Rafale. Only with a complete chalta hain attitude towards Mk1 itself.

And after that, limited orders for Mk1A, and then the IAF wants a completely new Tejas Mk2 - and once that program got heavily underway, now they are still not publicly committed to it, once the new chief got in service. Only after public uproar was a follow on comment made via a "friendly journalist" that hey, we have 6 squadrons of Tejas Mk2 committed for. Has that statement been repeated by the CAS in public, will it be oft repeated, your guess is as good as mine.

After a certain point, even their most vociferous supporters like us on the forum, have to ask for a change in behavior. Their planning has severe lacunae.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by fanne »

deleted - Thanks Karan for the sage advice. Kit sir please delete
Last edited by fanne on 01 Aug 2022 23:27, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by kit »

fanne wrote:the current CAS has been the worst in a decade. It looks like he is fighting GOI (Modi)/DRDO/HAL + COMMON SENSE more than he is fighting PLAAF or PAF
one wonders why he would go against the establishment guidelines .. is he being forced by someone ? quid pro quo etc ? sorry sounds like a conspiracy
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

Guys - a request, lets not personalize the issue to one individual, the CAS etc. His position deserves respect. This is more of an institutional thing. He is likely pushing for what his planners want. The issue then is institutional, not with one individual.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by skumar »

Karan M wrote:Guys - a request, lets not personalize the issue to one individual, the CAS etc. His position deserves respect. This is more of an institutional thing. He is likely pushing for what his planners want. The issue then is institutional, not with one individual.
That is a very lame argument. The role of CAS is not to act like the foreman of a jury and say "Ok, our jury has reached a 8-4 decision. I do not agree but there it is".

The CAS is a leader and he has to take 100% responsiiblity for the decision. A fighting force cannot be run like a democracy.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Raman »

Karan - if you have a twitter account, you should tweet out your post para by para. This is something that everyone should see and retweet.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

skumar wrote:
Karan M wrote:Guys - a request, lets not personalize the issue to one individual, the CAS etc. His position deserves respect. This is more of an institutional thing. He is likely pushing for what his planners want. The issue then is institutional, not with one individual.
That is a very lame argument. The role of CAS is not to act like the foreman of a jury and say "Ok, our jury has reached a 8-4 decision. I do not agree but there it is".

The CAS is a leader and he has to take 100% responsiiblity for the decision. A fighting force cannot be run like a democracy.
I am asking you civilly to make civil posts. If you can abide by that, well and good. If you consider that lame and want to be provocative, personalize the issue and make it all about the head of a fighting arm.. your choice. Then dont complain if you have to take responsibility for your actions. There are groundlines for all debates. And I'd suggest you also look at which staff rank handles which issues in the IAF before jumping to unnecessarily simplistic and flawed conclusions.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by sohamn »

I dont agree with your theory here. How come the previous CAS was pro indigenous procurement and so was his establishment. So overnight with the new CAS the establishment also wants foreign maal? This CAS has motives unknown and needs to take accountability with going against every single conventional wisdom. This is not just in fighter, but also in the realm of helicopters, drones and other weapon procurement.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

Force planning in the IAF is not the directive of the CAS himself. It's staff work, led by a team which gets promoted based on multiple criteria, and some of these folks wouldn't even have served directly under the current CAS. The prior CAS was a test pilot and understood the need for indigenous R&D deeply and was associated with the Tejas. Obviously, his directives to his staff included a focus on indigenization and in line with the current GOIs prerogatives. He had the Netra Mk2, Tejas Mk1A, Astra, SAAW, Akash follow on order, all cleared, Tejas Mk2, AMCA program supported.

His team was obviously pushing for MRFA too, but he would have had a key say in what got prioritized. The current CAS now has the MRFA on *his* table as an immediate priority. He sees that his immediate requirement. So he is pushing for it. GOIs available funds are limited. Ergo, Tejas Mk2 is on the debating block (till public storm ensued).

Now use your thinking cap. Did the prior CAS initiate the Tejas Mk1A program? It preceded him. Multiple rounds of IAF staff officers worked out the details and rationale for a Mk1A till it landed at CAS rtd RKBs table and he cleared it. Point is why did those officials not push for 123 Tejas Mk1A or 80 Mk1s? The issue then, is institutional. Its beyond one chief and one man alone. Similarly, right now, whatever the Chief is stating, comes via the DCAS who is also heading the team at the IAF which handles acquisitions. This has *historically* been the case. So when we discuss why IAF did xyz with Tejas, its not one chief and one DCAS, but a succession of them over decades, who have had a role to play. And despite many of them being "pro-Tejas" to whatever degree, the question to be asked is why did so many individuals still manage to limit the numbers planned. And so, the GOI needs to address that. Give a clear direction, roadmap and not leave it to the organization itself, which then will do what it will, one chief or another chief.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

KSingh wrote:Didn’t IAF give up on the 21 MiG-29 plan after they inspected the (used) airframes?

Either way IAF is in no rush IF the IAF was serious about replacing the MiGs they wouldn’t keep harping on about pipedreams of 114 MRFA which are either not coming or aren’t coming anytime soon. They’d order 2-3 additional Rafale SQNs and 2-3 more LCA MK1A so HAL can increase to 24/year
I believe they did indeed give up on those 21 MiG-29s, but the airframes were never flown IIRC.

I was referring to the timeframe it would take any OEM to deliver airframes to the IAF. Any OEM - including the famed Lockheed Martin - will take three years to deliver new build aircraft.

Air HQ has a laser vision focus on 114 MRFA. They cannot see beyond 114 MRFA. It is a pipedream that they believe will become a reality.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

The 21 MiG-29s and 12 Su-30s are victims of the Ukrainian-Russian war. We cant move on them for fear of angering our new best friends. We've already had to endure lots of finger wagging, a visit by his masters voice Dileep Singh, threats on J&K by the euros, and pak's ostensible removal from the grey list (partial, whatever) a few days later, and more talk on J&K, Zubair's arrest and similar very consequential events. Pappu complained his euro diplomat fraands have told him India is now mean, a bad boy, and no longer listens to them.

We've yawned, scratched behind our ear, given up on the above two purchases (for now), and kept purchasing Russian oil. Got a CAATSA waiver in the meanwhile after a lot of passive aggressive talk from our new best friends. One could hope that means AHQ will progress a desi Flanker upgrade and order more Tejas Mk1A, at least a squadron more. Any national force would have financed an Uttam variant for its Flankers if it had one available. Yet, we are yet to hear of it. Perhaps its planned. One can hope. One can dream.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

One could hope that means AHQ will progress a desi Flanker upgrade and order more Tejas Mk1A, at least a squadron more. Any national force would have financed an Uttam variant for its Flankers if it had one available. Yet, we are yet to hear of it. Perhaps its planned. One can hope. One can dream.
They can do it even now. Yes, it will take three years to arrive....but ordering additional Mk1A squadrons is going to negatively affect the IAF how exactly? They can boost their squadron strength with a competent platform and the Mk1A is eons better than the MiG-21 Bison. Heck, she is even better than the upgraded Mirage 2000I and the MiG-29UPG in terms of radar (AESA) and weaponry (Derby-ER, Astra, JDAM, etc).

Ordering additional Mk1As is not some asinine quest to just fill up the squadron strength with any aircraft out there. If that was the case, just build some WWII Spitfires and BF109s to fill up the squadron strength.

114 MRFA will take years to arrive, if it ever arrives in the first place. Where the disconnect lies with these Air Marshals at Air HQ is beyond me. I get the role of the Rafale against the PLA and PLAAF, but another 114 of them will bankrupt the IAF. And ordering 114 of any other aircraft is just pointless. That truly would be the real scam in the Rafale deal for 36 aircraft. Just get another 2 - 3 squadrons more of the Rafale and end this tamasha once in for all.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

I doubt this theory is ever taught in the Air Force Academy in India. In fact, the opposite happens in the IAF.

https://twitter.com/JA_Maolankar/status ... K8UqFIS0NQ ---> The Navy way. Was drilled into our young impressionable heads, “You can’t buy a Navy, you have to build one!”

Image
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

Karan M your post on force planning in IAF was really good. Perhaps it can be the basis for a detailed article on how planning is done and who does it in the three services.
Some of our members need 101 basics Gyan on certain fundamental things military!
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

What I am not able to understand is the refusal to actually look at the threat the PRC + TSP would represent 20 to 30 year's down the line.

Why does the IAF think that 42 squadrons of late 4th and 5th generation aircraft will be sufficient against a combined might of nearly 300 squadrons late 4th and 5th generation aircraft that a 2 front conflict brings against the IAF.

Plus 4 to 6 PLAN aircraft carriers in the Indian Ocean.

A 3 carrier navy will simply be overwhelmed by the PLAN.

It's not as if the IAF numbers are mandated by God.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by nachiket »

Forget about 20-30 years down the line. Look at what the PRC will have 5-10 years down the line. They are inducting upwards of 80 modern 4th gen jets plus some 5th gen all built domestically, every year. How in God's name does the IAF expect to confront such a force (even with limited airbases) in Ladakh and the Northeast if there is a war, while simultaneously keeping a substantial portion of its strength to watch the pakis in the west? Their stubbornness about buying 114 uber-expensive foreign jets really boggles the mind. It should be obvious even to a child that this is simply not affordable. Otherwise it would have happened by now. And if the govt. relents and they blow the whole budget on this acquisition, it would actually make things even worse. The IAF would be left with a large force of Su-30's that are increasingly losing their edge against modernized Chinese Flankers and which they now cannot afford to upgrade because they have no money. The lack of money also means they have no way of inducting crucial force multipliers like tankers and AWACS, while they confront a force that rapidly pops out dozens of home built tankers and AWACS and completely beats the IAF in situational awareness and nullifies the disadvantage of lack of air bases that they face.

We are heading into a scary situation and nobody seems to be in a hurry to climb down from their high horses and work together to fix it.
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