Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

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VinodTK
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by VinodTK »

IAF deficiencies
AIR Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari has pointed out ‘critical deficiencies’ being faced by the Indian Air Force (IAF), such as the shortage of fighter squadrons and force multipliers. Days after he reviewed the IAF’s operational readiness following the clash between Indian and Chinese troops in Arunachal Pradesh, he has emphasised that the shortfall should be addressed on priority.It is noteworthy that the Chief of Air Staff chose a public forum — a seminar on ‘India’s Eminence in the Emerging World Order’ — to draw the nation’s attention to this pressing matter. It’s clear that he wants the powers that be to understand the seriousness of the situation and come up with a time-bound plan to overcome the deficiencies.
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I give a lot of credit to the IAF chief for saying the obvious, hope the MOD and PMO wakeup
YashG
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by YashG »

^^^
That sounds ridiculous. Ofcourse VRC has in his power to order more Mk1As and setup a joint monitoring team for Mk2 progress. To me this lamenting sounds like a import lobby prayer. Ordering more MK1As is the only way this gets solved. Why wouldn't he go after that an dlament why more MK1As are not being ordered!
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Avinandan »

+1

I do not hope much from ACM VR Chaudhari and also from Defense Minister Rajnath Singh.
Thankfully ACM will only be there at the helm for another 1 to 1.5 years.
I sincerely pray to god that we get the next ACM who is pragmatic enough to order couple of squadrons of MK1As ASAP !!
Pratyush
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

The chief is not speaking his mind on the topic. He speaks for the IAF and it's institutional wisdom.

If he is not asking for additional MK1A as a remidie to the current situation the IAF finds itself in.

It means that the IAF dosent see additional MK1A as a solution to it's future challenges.

WRT, Mk2, the chief has already started how many the IAF will buy and additional orders will be contingent on production rates.

Let's hope that they don't wait for the line to close and then spend 5 years conducting an audit of the production rates. Before ordering additional units in order to make the product financially viable.
mody
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by mody »

Ordering an additional 2 squadrons of Tejas MK1A is a must. I have been saying this since a long time. But still its not too late. Order an additional 2 squadrons, to be delivered within the current timeline for delivery of 73 Tejas MK1A itself. This will allow HAL to scale up the production capacity and start producing upto 24 aircrafts per year.
What exactly are we going to field from new airforce bases like the one at Deesa in Gujarat and the new base coming up in eastern Ladakh. We need additional airframes and the easiest, fastest and cheapest way to do it is to induct more Tejas.

Add 2-3 squadrons of Rafael and close the MRFA farce. Commit to buying upto 180 Tejas MK2 as per the original plan and devote the rest of the resources for force multipliers like inflight refuellers and AEC/AWACS.

In a 2 front war, we can easily have a scenario, where China transfers 2-3 squadrons of J-10B/C to Pakistan and have Pakistani or Chinese pilots use them against us.
Maria
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Maria »

NRao wrote:^^^^^

They use "fan blockers" to reduce radar reflection from the inlet cavity and the engine fan blades. Used in F-18E/F, F-117, Su-57 and X-32.
If I am correct, this is also called the 'Serpentine intake'. Please correct me.
Gyan
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Gyan »

I think we should order additional 4 squadrons of LCA MKIA upgraded to LCA MKIAB. The change I propose from LCA MKIA is :-

1. Uttam Radar, indigenous jammer
ks_sachin
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

Gyan guru,

Now please get the MoD and top brass to listen to you.
Gyan
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Gyan »

MoD and Top Brass have assured me of their Co-operation as soon as My 5 yr old son obeys me.
MeshaVishwas
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by MeshaVishwas »

Karan I think I found something.
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7294&p=2467381&hil ... l#p2467384
I think this is from a ROC AF forum and they have an article that says IAF got the ARMAT for the Vajra.
Not able to find any evidence of the Shamsher with this or the older Martel but still something...I think.
Not sure of how safe this download link is but here is the full pdf:
https://www.4shared.com/office/xTQ5lRTT ... ant_B.html

Here is the SS from the particular page(s):
Image
Image
ks_sachin
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

Gyan wrote:MoD and Top Brass have assured me of their Co-operation as soon as My 5 yr old son obeys me.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Kersi
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Kersi »

[quote="MeshaVishwas"]Karan I think I found something.
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7294&p=2467381&hil ... l#p2467384
I think this is from a ROC AF forum and they have an article that says IAF got the ARMAT for the Vajra.
Not able to find any evidence of the Shamsher with this or the older Martel but still something...I think.
Not sure of how safe this download link is but here is the full pdf:
https://www.4shared.com/office/xTQ5lRTT ... ant_B.html
[quote="MeshaVishwas"]

We have seen pics of M2000 with Belouga and Jaguar with Durandul.
But not seen any pics of M2000 or Jaguar or XYZ either with AS20 / AS30 / ARMAT / Martel
Kartik
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Kartik »

Gyan wrote:I think we should order additional 4 squadrons of LCA MKIA upgraded to LCA MKIAB. The change I propose from LCA MKIA is :-

1. Uttam Radar, indigenous jammer
But the Tejas Mk1A is already supposed to get the Uttam radar from somewhere around the half-way mark. Indigenous SPJ as well.
ks_sachin
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

But Gyan guru has special connections in MoD.
MeshaVishwas
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by MeshaVishwas »

Kersi wrote:
We have seen pics of M2000 with Belouga and Jaguar with Durandul.
But not seen any pics of M2000 or Jaguar or XYZ either with AS20 / AS30 / ARMAT / Martel
Yes, don't have anything else backing up this report.Hope someone has a chai biscoot session with a veteran aviator where we can get some answers(or not).
The Yaksha prashne may need a Yudhishthira. :D

Edit: Just browsing for some ElMihiro type Osint and found this interesting image on JP
Image
Source: click
Last public photo was from 2007(Malta) and this is from 2022(Tehran).

My old post on this is here
Looks like the article is gone.Should have taken a few screenshots :oops:
Found it, think the link address is changed:
https://gulfbiz.jimdo.com/giii/giii-indian-af/
Rakesh
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Well, well, well....what do we have here... :mrgreen:

Looking for more info. If anyone has, please post. This is a remarkable moment IMVHO.

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... iAgcuWyH0w ---> Indiginized Adour engines (by MIDHANI) for Jaguar strike jets turns out to be more powerful than original British ones.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/NewsIADN/status/161 ... iAgcuWyH0w ---> "MIDHANI indigenized the Jaguar engine. In technical tests, the engine developed by MIDHANI was found to be superior to the original Jaguar engine." - CMD Mishra Dhatu Nigam (Midhani)
Rakesh
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

That in itself is a great achievement. Let us not self flagellate, but enjoy the moment :)

Developing our own low bypass turbofan - to power fighter aircraft - is the last technological hurdle for India.

Disinvesting from a foreign engine manufacturer (i.e. General Electric, considering the pedigree) is a long awaited dream for many in India and even on this forum. Looking forward to the day when AMCA takes flight with a viable & certified Indian turbofan.
vimal
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by vimal »

^^ Every journey begins with the first step. And this is in the right direction.

https://idrw.org/midhani-created-core-p ... uar-fleet/

MIDHANI created core parts that work perfectly for the Adour Mk.102 engines used in the Jaguar fleet.

Mishra Dhatu Nigam, a state-owned company that specializes in metallurgy, claimed that many Adour Mk.102 engine parts that powers the Jaguar fighter bomber have been replaced with its own indigenous spares, and that the engine parts developed by MIDHANI were found to be superior to the original Jaguar engine in the technical tests.

MIDHANI components are regularly flying in Jaguar fighter aircraft. HAL and IAF sought MIDHANI’s assistance in extending the life of the Jaguar fighter bomber fleet after the British discontinued production of spares and supplies for the engine following its retirement from its fleet.
The IAF is the sole operator of the Jaguar type and will continue to operate DARIN-III upgraded Jaguar fighter bombers until 2034. The IAF intends to begin retiring its older DARIN-I and II Jaguar fighter bomber fleet in 2024.

Tejas Mk2 fighter jets will be delivered to current Jaguar squadrons beginning in 2032, as the Mk2 programme enters production in 2029-30. The Indian Air Force has decided to replace the Jaguar fleet, the Mig-20UPg fleet, and the Mirage-2000 fleet with a single Tejas Mk2 type.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

Question is can we leverage this know how along with test beds and other infrastructure to start designing building, producing next generation jet engines, some UCAV, UAV, helicopter, transport aircraft, trainer aircraft, cruise missile engines etc.
A Deshmukh
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by A Deshmukh »

vimal wrote:^^ Every journey begins with the first step. And this is in the right direction.

https://idrw.org/midhani-created-core-p ... uar-fleet/

MIDHANI created core parts that work perfectly for the Adour Mk.102 engines used in the Jaguar fleet.
Midhani parts are better than 50-yr old Adour engine parts.
its a good step/milestone.
its an achievement but not yet a great achievement.
great achievement will be when Kaveri or other indigenous engines fly in planes / ucavs.
Aditya_V
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

But having a production facility able to make turbine blades is good start, it can start building UAV, UCAV, Cruise Missile engines, Turbo props, trainer Aircraft engines etc.

Transport Aircraft, Civilian aircraft and Fighter jet engines will be the pinnacle. For that if we can have an ecosystem with production facilities for simpler items it will be easier to dive in to more complicated tech, as we will have Indian ecosystem which is having the know how and know why.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by YashG »

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/1232270932690886656 MIDHANI has successfully fabricated high-pressure discs for the compressor section of the Adour MK 811 low-bypass turbofan that powers the IAF's Jaguar fighter-bombers. A noteworthy example of import substitution in the materials arena. - 5:17 PM · Feb 25, 2020
This substitution was already underway, now what seems to have happened is that results are out. Midhani did awesome!
fanne
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by fanne »

Is that the disc? I was more hoping for the fan blades themselves. It still can be that. Adour blades are not high performance as Kaveri and should be within our current tech capability. An Adour like engine goes in many things - Jag, Hawk, regional jets (see list below). It is a sweet spot for many things and needed by us. Hfte-25 is that answer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Roy ... meca_Adour

Applications
Aermacchi MB-338 (not-built)
BAE Hawk
BAE Taranis (UCAV development aircraft)
Dassault nEUROn (UCAV development aircraft)
McDonnell Douglas T-45 Goshawk
SEPECAT Jaguar
Licence-built
Ishikawajima-Harima TF40-IHI-801A
Mitsubishi F-1
Mitsubishi T-2
YashG
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by YashG »

^^^
It is Compressor stator + rotor blades + discs via triple melted method called "Titan 31A" by midhani.

Find full details @https://midhani-india.in/WordPress-cont ... t-2020.pdf

My understanding is that this work is directly an outcome of work midhani has done on titanium for kaveri engine.
ramana
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

Its the result of a long journey in extracting Titanium metal. First sponge, then double/triple melt and alloy.

YashG, Thanks for the brochure.
Titan-31 is Ti -6Al-4 V

Its superb high strength and high fracture toughness.
Elongation is like 12% ie like taffy.
They are using triple melt Ti.

Ti sponge has impurities and needs so many melts to clean it.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/16 ... pItwKGt7Gw ----> Why doesn’t India need bomber aircraft today? A full episode of Battle Cry answers this question with facts and perspective from @Chopsyturvey, @zone5aviation and @mjavinod:



Image
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Air Marshal A.P. Singh to be new Vice Chief of Indian Air Force
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 451422.ece
30 Jan 2023

Image
suryag
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by suryag »

Great development hopefully for Tejas given AP Singh Sir was part of Tejas team.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Kartik »

suryag wrote:Great development hopefully for Tejas given AP Singh Sir was part of Tejas team.
An integral part of the Tejas team, being the PD of NFTC! He was even the pilot that gave back seat rides to the likes of the French and US Air Force Chief and the Singapore Defence Minister.

How much longer does ACM VR Chaudhary have left in office? Having AM AP Singh as Air Chief could see a similar attitude up at the top as we saw during AM Bhadauria's tenure.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... s?from=mdr

Image

https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india- ... jas-425824

Image

https://thediplomat.com/2017/11/ng-visi ... ense-ties/

Image
Rakesh
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Kartik wrote:
suryag wrote:Great development hopefully for Tejas given AP Singh Sir was part of Tejas team.
How much longer does ACM VR Chaudhary have left in office? Having AM AP Singh as Air Chief could see a similar attitude up at the top as we saw during AM Bhadauria's tenure.
ACM VR Chaudhari was born on 04 Sept 1962 and was commissioned on 29 Dec 1982. He will turn 61 this coming September. I believe he should be demitting office sometime next year, as Service Chiefs can serve up to the age of 62. CDS can serve up to the age of 65.

Air Marshal AP Singh was born sometime in 1964 and was commissioned on 21 Dec 1984. He can certainly become Chief, but with the current Govt....seniority and age is no longer the primary choice for selecting the next chief.

P.S. Can you kindly post links to those images in your post? Thanks.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by nachiket »

Rakesh wrote: Air Marshal AP Singh was born sometime in 1964 and was commissioned on 21 Dec 1984. He can certainly become Chief, but with the current Govt....seniority and age is no longer the primary choice for selecting the next chief.
Has any officer been superseded while appointing CAS by this government? I thought that was only done with COAS till now.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

nachiket wrote:Has any officer been superseded while appointing CAS by this government? I thought that was only done with COAS till now.
This Govt has been making appointments based on merit along with considering other factors such as seniority. To succeed ACM Dhanoa, you had three Air Marshals in the running - Bhadauria, Nambiar and Suresh. See this link below;

https://www.deccanherald.com/national/r ... 62547.html

Going by pure seniority alone, it should have gone to Air Marshal B Suresh who was commissioned two days earlier to RKS Bhadauria. And Air Marshal Nambiar was commissioned more than six months after the other two. But yet he was in the running as well. All three are excellent officers, but the Govt went with RKS Bhadauria.

And previous Govt’s have done this in the past. See this link;

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/defe ... 1988-07-14

Air Marshal MM Singh was commissioned on 19 Jan 1951, while Air Chief Marshal SK Mehra was commissioned on 22 Dec 1951, more than 11 months later. Why SK Mehra over MM Singh? Only the Govt of that day will know the real reason, despite the article’s insinuations of a girlfriend and political beliefs.

Anything can happen Saar. Air Marshal AP Singh is a wonderful officer and when the time comes, if the government wants to appoint him as the next CAS…then that is what will happen.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Prem Kumar »

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2021/ ... chief.html

The above lists the 4 contenders from whom, ACM Chaudhari was chosen. Air Marshal Sandeep Singh (who was a liaison for DRDO because of his deep experience with SU-30 MKI) went on to become Vice Chief. He is succeeded by Air Marshal A. P. Singh

The GOI went wrong with their current ACM selection, IMHO. Hope they set it right with AM A. P. Singh
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

The government did not go wrong with the current ACM. The ACM is the voice that represents the collective wisdom of the IAF.

He can be changed but the voice of the IAF will not change.

It will only change when the government compelles this change through the ministry of defence.

Government of India is on the job.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by MeshaVishwas »

nachiket wrote: Has any officer been superseded while appointing CAS by this government? I thought that was only done with COAS till now.
OT
Adm Karambir Singh was chosen over a super shady senior too iirc.
That entitled person went to me lords also to challenge the decision.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Yes indeed Mesha Saar.

That officer was Vice Admiral Bimal Verma (01 Jan 1980 commission), brother of Admiral Nirmal Kumar Verma. After the appointment went to Admiral Karambir Singh (July 1980 commission), Vice Admiral Verma went to the Armed Forces Tribunal to lodge a formal complaint. See below:

Vice Admiral Verma, overlooked for Navy chief post, earned 2 adverse reports
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... XbQhK.html

Also see this wonderful story --->

That dynastic subversion of the Navy
http://www.hvk.org/1998/0198/0093.html
30 Jan 1998

Moral of the Story - There is precedent for the Govt to supersede seniority for merit.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by fanne »

if only the govt can pull this off in Judiciary ( not that it is not trying).
One of the comment I have heard on appointments 1) It is easy to supercede a officer if it is black and white case. The current GOI is doing it. Even with some darker shade of grey it is doing 2) The problem is when the next all of the choices are almost similar shades of grey (none of them white or black). What do you do? There is not much of a choice.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Prem Kumar wrote:https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2021/ ... chief.html

The above lists the 4 contenders from whom, ACM Chaudhari was chosen. Air Marshal Sandeep Singh (who was a liaison for DRDO because of his deep experience with SU-30 MKI) went on to become Vice Chief. He is succeeded by Air Marshal A. P. Singh

The GOI went wrong with their current ACM selection, IMHO. Hope they set it right with AM A. P. Singh
I was looking for that article :) Thank you for finding it.

Air Marshals Manavendra Singh and Amit Dev were commissioned on the same day as ACM Chaudhari (29 Dec 1982). But yet Air Marshal Sandeep Singh was also in the running, even though he was commissioned a year later on 22 Dec 1983. Side note, Air Marshal Manavendra Singh is a helo pilot and an excellent one at that. That should not put him out of contention though, as Air Chief Marshal FH Major was also a helo pilot. There would have been other factors, which would be known to the Govt.
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