Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

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ldev
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ldev »

What exactly does the IAF expect this strategic bomber to do? Penetrate China? The USAF is retiring it's B-2s because in the future is expects only the upcoming B-21 bomber to be able to penetrate China's integrated AD network. If the USAF is not confident of even the B-2 penetrating China's AD network in the decades ahead, what gives the IAF or Bharat Karnad the belief that somehow the IAF can pull off the same feat with a non stealthy bomber with a 100m^2 rcs even with EW. With that huge rcs the amount of power that the EW system will need will be humongous....remember it will proportional to the 4th square of the relative rcs compared to let's say a 0.3 m^2 rcs Rafale in a clean configuration.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by NRao »

ldev wrote:What exactly does the IAF expect this strategic bomber to do? Penetrate China? The USAF is retiring it's B-2s because in the future is expects only the upcoming B-21 bomber to be able to penetrate China's integrated AD network. If the USAF is not confident of even the B-2 penetrating China's AD network in the decades ahead, what gives the IAF or Bharat Karnad the belief that somehow the IAF can pull off the same feat with a non stealthy bomber with a 100m^2 rcs even with EW. With that huge rcs the amount of power that the EW system will need will be humongous....remember it will proportional to the 4th square of the relative rcs compared to let's say a 0.3 m^2 rcs Rafale in a clean configuration.
A lot to unpack, will address 2:

* (This is a Brar topic)(not my area). The B-2s are being retired because of the small fleet (20?) and therefore are too expensive to maintain. Alternatives are cheaper.

* On "AD network": it is formidable on the Eastern coast, currently not as good along their western borders.

The coastal defense, especially the 1st chain, is specifically designed for the USN (USN subs are exceptions). Having said that even today the USMC/SO can operate, for short periods, inside China mainland. Once the USN's version of the NGAD comes then we can revisit the topic

BTW, for both sides, A2/AD is 24x7, active in some form all the time.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

I have yet to see official confirmation of the first quote below.

With the S-400, it was the IAF that requested (and insisted) on the platform. The IAF appears yet again, to do the same thing with the Tu-160. This will trigger a response (CAATSA ?) from the US Govt, which will force the GOI to push back on. This in turn will ring alarm bells in the top echelons of India's political leadership. A US response will only further cement the notion with India's political leadership, that America is not a reliable ally against India's conflict with China.

What seems to be the takleef with the US, when India buys military equipment - of this nature - from Russia?

India's White Knight?
https://fox2aviation.substack.com/p/ind ... tent=share
13 August 2022
The Indian Air Force has requested the government to possibly lease 6 Tu-160 Blackjack aircraft from Russia.
Initial reports suggest that India’s leased Tu-160s will be placed in Central India which gives them the capacity to fly to Central China and back. This would allow the aircraft to stay clear from the range of Chinese cruise missiles unless PLAAF manages deep penetration which is highly unlikely. The positioning also allows Tu-160s to conduct air to air refueling just before entering Chinese airspace giving them more access to China’s primary airbases and strategic assets which are closer to the East Coast facing Taiwan. There is no doubt that the move is strategic and will give IAF a crucial deep-strike capability, not just in mainland China but across Indo-Pacific.
However, between the two, the choice for the IAF will clearly be the Tu-160 (while being sanctioned by US this time, unlike with the S-400 deal), as it will be easy to equip the Tu-160 with the long range air-to-air Brahmos NG missile and the in-development Brahmos II Hypersonic Missile which is currently being co-developed by Russia and India. Acquiring Tu-160s will give the IAF and India’s strategic forces a major boost in possessing deep strike & mass destruction capabilities against China...
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

If Air HQ has the belief that a flight of Tu-160s can reach Central China and back, then they are confident that the Chinese AD network is not that threatening. They obviously have Military Intelligence inputs that the aam junta does not have access to. So they are basing their assessment on some fairly robust intelligence sources to believe such a bold claim.

I am pretty sure Air HQ has not shifted her thinking to Kamikaze mission profiles and the Tu-160 is a massive whale of a plane. For the White Swan to reach Central China and come back unscathed, is a surprising claim to make.

ACM Raha Sir also mentioned that they will not send a single strategic bomber to go solo into China. So it will be a flight of them, accompanied by the Rafale and/or Su-30MKI. They are the only two aircraft that have sufficient legs to keep up with the Tu-160 into Central China. Inflight refueling will have to be conducted in Indian airspace, before entering Chinese airspace.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 4YDkzl8pww ---> The Indian Air Force has requested the government to possibly lease 6 Tu-160 Blackjack aircraft from Russia. This seems crazy and new. Show me the money. Where are the fighter squadrons first?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

If the strategic bombers are a part of the IAF thought process and have been a part of thinking for nearly a decade. Then as of this moment a clean sheet design is the the most logical way of achieving it.

Neither the Russians or the Americans are a viable option.

Provided the CCS has bought into the vision of the IAF.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Haridas »

Rakesh wrote:The PMO will give the broad guidelines, but the technical nitty gritty will have to dealt by the respected service HQ (in this case, Air HQ).

PMO is not qualified to have technical discussions on military platforms with any of the three services. It is just not their domain. So the term "Air HQ's fancy" was meant in relation to the specific platform that they are zeroing in on. Whether that is Tu-160, PAK-DA or whatever else.
Does NSA report to anybody other than PM?

When one has halfbright son, his father has to cover for him. So in theory " technical nitty gritty dealt by services HQ", may seem textbook answer; the reality is Air Chief unable to answer to where does 45 Sqn number come from gives you good idea on HQ being quarter bright or sixteenth bright?

So baap has to do much much more.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

https://idrw.org/need-to-export-lca-mk1 ... iaf-chief/

While the forum was focused on the strategic bomber comment from the retired ACM and Bharat Karnad.

The retired ACM also made a much larger point about the need for exports in order to sustain the Indian MIC.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

India Needs ‘White Swan’ Tu-160 To Defend Black Swan Moment With China
https://asiapost.live/india-needs-white ... ith-china/
14 Aug 2022
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

uhoh.... :lol:

Air Force’s shortage of bombers likely to end soon
https://indusscrolls.com/air-forces-sho ... o-end-soon
14 Aug 2022
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by John »

ldev wrote:What exactly does the IAF expect this strategic bomber to do? Penetrate China? The USAF is retiring it's B-2s because in the future is expects only the upcoming B-21 bomber to be able to penetrate China's integrated AD network. If the USAF is not confident of even the B-2 penetrating China's AD network in the decades ahead, what gives the IAF or Bharat Karnad the belief that somehow the IAF can pull off the same feat with a non stealthy bomber with a 100m^2 rcs even with EW. With that huge rcs the amount of power that the EW system will need will be humongous....remember it will proportional to the 4th square of the relative rcs compared to let's say a 0.3 m^2 rcs Rafale in a clean configuration.
B-21 have numerous changes increased processing power from new chips, new ECM suite, improved wing design and modified inlet design all which reduce its RCS and lower its heat signature. Few folks have noted B-21 is optimized for high altitude but I question that assessment I believe it’s flight profile will be similar B-2.

That doesn’t mean B-2 cannot penetrate Chinese air defense. But cost savings are biggest advantage of B-21 over B-2 when former enter service it simply doesn’t make sense to continue operating B-2 given its high costs.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Barath »

John wrote:B-21 have numerous changes increased processing power from new chips, new ECM suite, improved wing design and modified inlet design all which reduce its RCS and lower its heat signature. Few folks have noted B-21 is optimized for high altitude but I question that assessment I believe it’s flight profile will be similar B-2.

That doesn’t mean B-2 cannot penetrate Chinese air defense. But cost savings are biggest advantage of B-21 over B-2 when former enter service it simply doesn’t make sense to continue operating B-2 given its high costs.
The B-2 was redesigned in the 1980s from high altitude to low altitude penetration, terrain following, adding 2 years and a few billion $ cost to it. In the 80s , the us projected that low level penetration would help evade soviet a2d bubbles near the border for about 5+ years, leading to low level penetrating aircraft like B1B, F111, tornado finding favor. Low level flight adds stress to airframe which is why B1B are currently forbidden from the same. I suspect the B-21 will not carry it forward

As you said, the biggest advantage of B-21 will be to reduce high maintenance cost legacy bombers.

The degree to which B-21 will be able to penetrate chinese air space is open. Even china would get suspicious if all of its icbms blew up almost simultaneously [attempted first strike ]. That is a far different challenge from the odd high value asset being struck.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ldev »

John wrote:B-21 have numerous changes increased processing power from new chips, new ECM suite, improved wing design and modified inlet design all which reduce its RCS and lower its heat signature. Few folks have noted B-21 is optimized for high altitude but I question that assessment I believe it’s flight profile will be similar B-2.

That doesn’t mean B-2 cannot penetrate Chinese air defense. But cost savings are biggest advantage of B-21 over B-2 when former enter service it simply doesn’t make sense to continue operating B-2 given its high costs.
The larger point I was making was that a non stealthy bomber escorted by EW fighters is no substitute for a LO bomber. If you look at the Boeing offer to Finland with the Superhornet + Growler combination which Boeing lost to the F-35, that Boeing offer consisted of 50 Superhornet and 14 Growlers. That gives you some idea of the ratio of EW escorts to fighters to enable protection for a non stealthy aircraft i.e. something like 3:1 or 4:1. And the Superhornet has a reduced rcs compared to the legacy Hornet....And yet the escort ratio is 3:1 or 4:1.

Now imagine that you have to escort a 100m^2 TU-160 vs a <1m^2 fighter. What kind of EW power the escorting EW fighters will need to protect that huge rcs of a single TU-160? You may need 2 or 3 escorts to protect a single bomber. And then what about the short range of an escorting EW fighter compared to the 7000 km + range of the bomber? Will the escorting fighters then need refueling tankers? And who will protect the tankers? If this formula of non stealthy bombers escorted by EW fighters was workable why should the US spend billions and billions on developing ever improving LO bombers which are LO not only in the RF spectrum but also in the IR spectrum....one of the biggest advances for the B-21 is supposedly is that it is very LO vs the B-2 in the IR spectrum. As both the US and China improve their LO aircraft in the RF spectrum, the battle for detection has shifted to the IR spectrum.

Also in the case of the India China equation it is not just a question of penetrating Chinese airspace but weapons reaching the crucial political and economic centers of gravity of China. Unfortunately geography determines that the centers of Indian political activity are within reach from Chinese airspace and to a large extent even centers of Indian economic activity. The reverse is not the case. The Chinese heartland is many thousands of kilometers away for india. And any acquisition that India makes for a strategic purpose has to be survivable enough to reach that heartland.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

The number of local programs that were cancelled over the decades. Truly heartbreaking. Click on the link below and read the twitter thread...

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/155 ... y-9MtAGWzg ---> India's Cancelled Fighter Jet Programs - which could change the course of future.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rony »

Rakesh wrote:
Rony wrote: Can you explain what do you mean by that :roll:
Why the rolling eyes? :mrgreen:

Go here ----> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7848&start=1320#p2561077
Thanks for the explanation
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Rony wrote:
Rakesh wrote: Why the rolling eyes? :mrgreen:

Go here ----> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7848&start=1320#p2561077
Thanks for the explanation
Rumours of Tu-160 acquisition by India, have finally died on Twitter. Not much drama going on, other that repeating the same thing verbatim.

But there is now a new rumour that has sprung up on twitter, but has already been debunked. Read below for entertainment value onlee....

https://twitter.com/LarsNorberg/status/ ... Bs5i-s2rCA ---> United States is now offering heavily modifiable F-35A to India under MRFA with a price tag of $77 million per unit. Like to Israel, radars and weapons will be Indian according to IAF's needs. Rafale is $94 million. Gripen is $70 million. Su-35 is $85 million. Easy decision! Tough negotiation ahead.

https://twitter.com/IndiaUnleashed_/sta ... Bs5i-s2rCA ---> F-35 stripped down version is illogical. Purpose of F-35 and MRFA are totally different.

https://twitter.com/cpt_Ricky_Singh/sta ... Bs5i-s2rCA ---> F-35 makes no sense without it’s APG-81 AESA radar. You are just paying for a stealth airframe as the US won’t allow its radar signature to be jeopardized in S-400 airspace. You are left with a F-35MKI lacking the technological edge a Rafale F5 would provide.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

The contract stipulates that all five are to delivered by 2023 end. Lets see if Russia sticks to the schedule.

Two regiments have already been delivered, with at least one of them active.

https://twitter.com/neeraj_rajput/statu ... Bs5i-s2rCA ---> Russia will deliver all the five regiments of S-400 missile system to India by late 2023.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Haridas »

Rakesh wrote:If Air HQ has the belief that a flight of Tu-160s can reach Central China and back, then they are confident that the Chinese AD network is not that threatening. They obviously have Military Intelligence inputs that the aam junta does not have access to. So they are basing their assessment on some fairly robust intelligence sources to believe such a bold claim.

I am pretty sure Air HQ has not shifted her thinking to Kamikaze mission profiles and the Tu-160 is a massive whale of a plane. For the White Swan to reach Central China and come back unscathed, is a surprising claim to make.
Beyond limits of linear thinking.

Long legs of TU160 broadens the Chinese front tremendously.

For example its not just Laddhak -AkshaySindhu (Aksaichen) front but sneak attack overflying and attacking from Kyrgyzstan-china front. Or Hotan attacked from rear.

Or carry friendship inducing भय बिनु होइ न प्रीति flights to Turkyia, Faaras and Arabia.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

Not one service has got committed for funds. Neither has DRDO etc.
Where are we getting the money for Tu-160? IMHO more of a future proposition than anything current.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

That is what I don't understand about this whole situation. People are behaving as if it's a done deal.

When it's just an answer to a question by a retired ACM.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

PRatyush

Confusion Now Hath Made His Masterpiece
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Maria »

The ex ACM's speech, the public chatter on long range bombers are a calibrated message across the bow to the enemy in the north. Needless to say who intended this, but let me assure you the thought process comes very much from the top.

The substance of the message is very deliberate and is intended to cause fluttering in their mind.

No doubt the enemy airspace will be highly contested and will require immense amount of sanitisation, however the Rudram series being developed is not for frying gol-gapes but to blast open rapid gaps in their air defence with the utmost viciousness. Just to back-up my opinion - look at the specs of the missile. We could have started simpler and smaller.

Bombers are coming but they won't be the White Swan, they will be desi.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Haridas »

Maria wrote:The ex ACM's speech, the public chatter on long range bombers are a calibrated message across the bow to the enemy in the north. Needless to say who intended this, but let me assure you the thought process comes very much from the top.

The substance of the message is very deliberate and is intended to cause fluttering in their mind.


... .. . Bombers are coming but they won't be the White Swan, they will be desi.
I am surprised no one here has asked from you the proof from published media source. :) :D :P
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

Well, he is making a claim. And since something like this cannot be corroborated, then a claim, it will remain.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

A nation has capabilities, intentions, and activities.

Without capabilities the others come to naught.
The sum total of post Independence thought process is let's stunt capabilities so no future leader has new intentions and hence will not carry out activities.
Sad that senior forum members are thinking in same vein.
For example Balakot strike is an activity enabled by upgraded Mirage 2K and Israeli Spice 2000.
If these capabilites were not there, it would be Wagh Kandle Kisser redux.

Is this what we want?
Despite all said done, BRF is still the oldest and most forward thinking forum.
One should introspect if they have become like old Kauravas and retire.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Haridas »

ks_sachin wrote:Well, he is making a claim. And since something like this cannot be corroborated, then a claim, it will remain.
Sir, in fact I am with her, I said that in jest to tease those fossiled ones who would rise in chorus asking for published source :)
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

I dont think anyone is questioning the impact even a small fleet of cruise missile carriers would add to the IAF.
The issue as always, has been about funding. At current levels, it seems very unlikely we are adding them unless the budget is raised substantially.

As to how they can be used, a professional AF can use them in a multitude of ways. Conventional strike - a mere fleet of 6 Tu-160s, can carry and deploy 72 missiles.If a Brahmos variant is made to replace the AS-16 or rather, Kh-series missiles it currently carries, the payload of a mere 6 Tu-160s is equal to 72 Su-30 MKIs. If range is sought to be optimized, thats still 6 missiles per platform, and 36 missiles for the unit.

This comes into importance in both the tactical and strategic scenarios. For instance a Tu-160 fleet attacking a Chinese naval flotilla can launch enough missiles to overwhelm its defences.

Su-30s can escort the Tu-160s on the inbound strike.

Or, a Tu-160 fleet can launch enough Brahmos or other missiles to saturate a HV Target defended even by S-400 class defences. The possibilities are endless, especially given the 6000 km unrefuelled range with 6x missiles.

As always, its about funding.

Ideally, we should at least get 12 units, preferably even 18, so we can field a full squadron. Detachments can then be rotated for multiple missions. Using the above scenario as an example, a 18 unit squadron would give us 3 detachments of 6 aircraft each.

Our needs are huge and a more liberal funding of the IAF, even if focused on desi gear is essential.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Great post KaranM. +108!
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by John »

Given Russia currently has 18 Tu-160 and only 1 of which is M and struggling to build more . Chances of any large Tu-160m order is unlikely, so any deal would be mix of old Tu-160 upgraded to M standards and no more than 6 IMO.

So if you procure 6 Tu-160 the chances of having even 4 operational at a given time is very unlikely and these things are lot more challenging to maintain than the good old bears which we are lucky to achieve 50% availability.

As I said before Tu-160 cannot be used as AshW platform (Russians don’t use it as such), even the Tu-22m need the Tu-95RT to provide targeting not sure where this myth came that we can fly Tu-160 at Chinese fleet. They will essentially be flying blind unless somehow we can integrate and fly P-8i to support them.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Karan M wrote:I dont think anyone is questioning the impact even a small fleet of cruise missile carriers would add to the IAF.
The issue as always, has been about funding. At current levels, it seems very unlikely we are adding them unless the budget is raised substantially.

As to how they can be used, a professional AF can use them in a multitude of ways. Conventional strike - a mere fleet of 6 Tu-160s, can carry and deploy 72 missiles.If a Brahmos variant is made to replace the AS-16 or rather, Kh-series missiles it currently carries, the payload of a mere 6 Tu-160s is equal to 72 Su-30 MKIs. If range is sought to be optimized, thats still 6 missiles per platform, and 36 missiles for the unit.

This comes into importance in both the tactical and strategic scenarios. For instance a Tu-160 fleet attacking a Chinese naval flotilla can launch enough missiles to overwhelm its defences.

Su-30s can escort the Tu-160s on the inbound strike.

Or, a Tu-160 fleet can launch enough Brahmos or other missiles to saturate a HV Target defended even by S-400 class defences. The possibilities are endless, especially given the 6000 km unrefuelled range with 6x missiles.

As always, its about funding.

Ideally, we should at least get 12 units, preferably even 18, so we can field a full squadron. Detachments can then be rotated for multiple missions. Using the above scenario as an example, a 18 unit squadron would give us 3 detachments of 6 aircraft each.

Our needs are huge and a more liberal funding of the IAF, even if focused on desi gear is essential.
Karan, I have a feeling that the modi govt is about to loosen the purse strings. They must realize that a strong military deterrence is crucial to Indias growth, which they have staked their govt on. In this context the next 5-6 years are absolutely crucial what with massive geopolitical upheaval changes.

Quite importantly, the time to strike a bargain with the Russians is now, when they're a pariah and will likely be more willing to trade crown jewels. Furthermore, tu160s will probly cost a fraction of say a Vishal type CV, air group and support assets. Not to mention the time taken to deliver such a battle group. The swan is ideal candidate for a quicker induction, and would be a terrible bother to any Chinese ambitions in the IOR.

My guess is that we're going to see some rafale, tu160s for the iaf., guardians, shornets, and mine sweepers for the navy. And God knows what else and from where else. Guess the defense budget will increase. It has to. Especially considering the push for atmanirbhar.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

John wrote:As I said before Tu-160 cannot be used as AshW platform (Russians don’t use it as such), .
I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Most sources point out that The 160 was designed for a secondary anti ship role with up to 24 kh15 ashms.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

I have over the last 20 years not seen any source which says that the 160 had any anti ship tasking.

Why are we still discussing that the 160s are even coming?

No one in Indian government has said it's possible.

The Russians don't has any spare industrial capacity to supply the jets to us.

Even though the Russians are investing in additional aircraft production, they are focused on re building the civilian airliner to cover for the loss of civil aviation capacity following sanctions.

The pivot to military production has not yet taken place.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

John wrote:Given Russia currently has 18 Tu-160 and only 1 of which is M and struggling to build more . Chances of any large Tu-160m order is unlikely, so any deal would be mix of old Tu-160 upgraded to M standards and no more than 6 IMO.

So if you procure 6 Tu-160 the chances of having even 4 operational at a given time is very unlikely and these things are lot more challenging to maintain than the good old bears which we are lucky to achieve 50% availability.

As I said before Tu-160 cannot be used as AshW platform (Russians don’t use it as such), even the Tu-22m need the Tu-95RT to provide targeting not sure where this myth came that we can fly Tu-160 at Chinese fleet. They will essentially be flying blind unless somehow we can integrate and fly P-8i to support them.

"As I said before" - and so? Just because you said it, it becomes gospel and we can't do it? Somehow Indians lack the common sense and agency to do what you yourself realise is the gaping hole in your own argument "somehow we can integrate and fly P-8i to support them". And no IAF can't fly any other assets to do so, including its AEW&CS which can do surface surveillance or use the multitude of their fighter assets to datalink info back to a strike fleet? Or the Navy's multiple UAVs and other assets? None of these can datalink data back to be fed to the Tu-160s.

What dark comedy is this? Do we seriously think the IAF or IN would not realise this most simple of things, not figure out a way to pass targeting information via the multitude of datalinks they operate (IN has Link2, IAF has ODL) operational on a variety of aircraft and ships and Tu-160 can't have any of this.

No Indian engineer has the brains, and no service person either, to decide to integrate a functional datalink between existing assets and add an AShW capability to the Tu-160. For that matter, they wont be able to do anything inventive with the platform at all. All the platforms we purchase will sit forlorn on the tarmak, as we cant and wont use them in any inventive or unique or effective manner whatsoever. In fact, they cant be used for the strategic mission too. As the Indians are too dumb to add any comms to the Tu-160 to get them targeting data, or reroute them or whatever.

Woe be onto us for even thinking of this possibility. Let us all shut things down. Tu-160s etc will be flying blind. You have said so, so it shall be.
Karan M
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

Pratyush wrote:I have over the last 20 years not seen any source which says that the 160 had any anti ship tasking. .
Did the MiG-29 have any anti-ship tasking with something like the Uran before it actually happened?
Why are we still discussing that the 160s are even coming?
Because its interesting and a former CAS who has far more access to classified information has hinted it so. At any rate worth a discussion or a dekko.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Karan M »

Pratyush wrote:I have over the last 20 years not seen any source which says that the 160 had any anti ship tasking.
https://www.weaponsystems.net/system/99-Raduga+Kh-15
The Kh-15 can be fitted to three types of Soviet bomber aircraft. It is mainly used on the supersonic Tu-22M3 (Backfire-C) strategic and maritime strike bomber. It is able to carry 6 missiles in the MKU-6-1 rotary launcher in its bomb bay. Additionally 4 missiles can be carried on underwing pylons. The Tu-95MS-6 (Bear-H) variant can carry 6 missiles. The Tu-160 (Blackjack) strategic bomber can carry two MKU-6-1 rotary launchers internally for up to 12 missiles.
Common sense would suggest that if the Tu-160 was designed for being able to carry this sort of payload, the anti-ship role did come into their thought process. Nothing stops us from specifying our mods for the platform either.
John
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by John »

Karan M wrote:
"As I said before" - and so? Just because you said it, it becomes gospel and we can't do it? Somehow Indians lack the common sense and agency to do what you yourself realise is the gaping hole in your own argument "somehow we can integrate and fly P-8i to support them". And no IAF can't fly any other assets to do so, including its AEW&CS which can do surface surveillance or use the multitude of their fighter assets to datalink info back to a strike fleet? Or the Navy's multiple UAVs and other assets? None of these can datalink data back to be fed to the Tu-160s.

What dark comedy is this? Do we seriously think the IAF or IN would not realise this most simple of things, not figure out a way to pass targeting information via the multitude of datalinks they operate (IN has Link2, IAF has ODL) operational on a variety of aircraft and ships and Tu-160 can't have any of this.

No Indian engineer has the brains, and no service person either, to decide to integrate a functional datalink between existing assets and add an AShW capability to the Tu-160. For that matter, they wont be able to do anything inventive with the platform at all. All the platforms we purchase will sit forlorn on the tarmak, as we cant and wont use them in any inventive or unique or effective manner whatsoever. In fact, they cant be used for the strategic mission too. As the Indians are too dumb to add any comms to the Tu-160 to get them targeting data, or reroute them or whatever.

Woe be onto us for even thinking of this possibility. Let us all shut things down. Tu-160s etc will be flying blind. You have said so, so it shall be.
We have to deal with facts with what platform is capable of otherwise we quickly go down the rabbit hole of fantasy wishes. It is currently purely land attack platform that can carry Kh-55/AS-16 with currently only 18 available and only 1 new variant operational. Sure it will be great to have 18 Tu-160 M2 with rotary launchers modified (Brahmos is too big for current launcher) to carry Brahmos and integrated P-8s sound great but they don’t exist.

It doesn’t mean it cannot be done but pointing out realistically what is possible especially given the prior track record for example it took more than a decade to just get Il-38s upgraded. We haven’t integrated those with P-8s or Brahmos.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Maria »

Karan M wrote:
John wrote:Given Russia currently has 18 Tu-160 and only 1 of which is M and struggling to build more . Chances of any large Tu-160m order is unlikely, so any deal would be mix of old Tu-160 upgraded to M standards and no more than 6 IMO.

So if you procure 6 Tu-160 the chances of having even 4 operational at a given time is very unlikely and these things are lot more challenging to maintain than the good old bears which we are lucky to achieve 50% availability.

As I said before Tu-160 cannot be used as AshW platform (Russians don’t use it as such), even the Tu-22m need the Tu-95RT to provide targeting not sure where this myth came that we can fly Tu-160 at Chinese fleet. They will essentially be flying blind unless somehow we can integrate and fly P-8i to support them.

"As I said before" - and so? Just because you said it, it becomes gospel and we can't do it? Somehow Indians lack the common sense and agency to do what you yourself realise is the gaping hole in your own argument "somehow we can integrate and fly P-8i to support them". And no IAF can't fly any other assets to do so, including its AEW&CS which can do surface surveillance or use the multitude of their fighter assets to datalink info back to a strike fleet? Or the Navy's multiple UAVs and other assets? None of these can datalink data back to be fed to the Tu-160s.

What dark comedy is this? Do we seriously think the IAF or IN would not realise this most simple of things, not figure out a way to pass targeting information via the multitude of datalinks they operate (IN has Link2, IAF has ODL) operational on a variety of aircraft and ships and Tu-160 can't have any of this.

No Indian engineer has the brains, and no service person either, to decide to integrate a functional datalink between existing assets and add an AShW capability to the Tu-160. For that matter, they wont be able to do anything inventive with the platform at all. All the platforms we purchase will sit forlorn on the tarmak, as we cant and wont use them in any inventive or unique or effective manner whatsoever. In fact, they cant be used for the strategic mission too. As the Indians are too dumb to add any comms to the Tu-160 to get them targeting data, or reroute them or whatever.

Woe be onto us for even thinking of this possibility. Let us all shut things down. Tu-160s etc will be flying blind. You have said so, so it shall be.
:rotfl: :mrgreen: :(( Fata fati Dada!
Roop
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Roop »

Karan M wrote:
Why are we still discussing that the 160s are even coming?
Because its interesting and a former CAS who has far more access to classified information has hinted it so. At any rate worth a discussion or a dekko.
Well said, Karan. (thumbs-up)

I too was thinking to myself "why are we even discussing this?", but then reading the posts from Ramana, Maria and yourself, I now think it is more serious than just an idle gabfest. In any case, certainly worth a page on BRF.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by hnair »

Karan M, nice :x John, please do take it easy, let us keep “one Ukrie flatulence = 100 Russians” in that other thread.

A numerically superior “fleet-in-being” like the one PLAN is building, cannot be out-build even by khan with his vast resources and knowledge base, because it is idiotic. But nullifying the threat of a fleet-in-being by a counterforce-in-being is a doable proposition for not only khan, but also India.

Khan has their superb and sizeable SSN fleet to deal with that in bulk while their CVNs and smaller flattops will provide the cover needed against PLAN ASW assets. India needs a lot of SSNs that can dash foreward at will and not restrained by bunkering but only for victualing. But unlike khan, India has another issue: IOR is vast and does not provide IN with robust allies who will pick up the gauntlet from a PLAN fleet at Sunda or Malacca. So a long range maritime strike aircraft provides a lot more flexibility, quicker response, faster reload than what the P15/17 magazines provide.

A combo of 6-12 SSN + 12-18 maritime strike bomber + p8I + ASW UAV + micro-SAR satellites would be a good combo of counterforce-in-being, by 2035 to shutdown IOR for PLAN. Also like a mentioned in a previous post, swing it landward for taking out Western Military District’s logistics bases in peak winter and let Himalayas finish the job.

My only quibble is the Russian maal’s uptime. Particularly anything of Soviet vintage.
John
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by John »

hnair wrote:Karan M, nice :x John, please do take it easy, let us keep “one Ukrie flatulence = 100 Russians” in that other thread.

A numerically superior “fleet-in-being” like the one PLAN is building, cannot be out-build even by khan with his vast resources and knowledge base, because it is idiotic. But nullifying the threat of a fleet-in-being by a counterforce-in-being is a doable proposition for not only khan, but also India.
Where did I ever say anything such as that ? This place has gone down hill and quick to start bashing anyone who questions Russian PR . We have people talking about 16 Tu-160m2 (never officially even acknowledged as being pursued) magically appearing with 100% up time in few years with Brahmos with Asuw capability to take on Chinese there is not rationally given we can’t even get Vikramditya operational this is pure fantasy. If you going down that rabbit whole why not PAK-DA and plasma stealth. I will take my leave from this place as well.
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