Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

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kit
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by kit »

One hopes the next Balakot may just wipe off a paki airbase from the face of the earth., strike fast and obliterate
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

Followed by perhaps
  • an armoured thrust across the western sector
  • naval blockade of Karachi
  • attempt to cut of PoK
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Wildlife board okays new IAF base in Ladakh
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 060036.cms
08 Sept 2022
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by chiru »

Likely to be at Nyoma village.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Haridas »

chiru wrote:Likely to be at Nyoma village.
It's here

https://twitter.com/HaridasKukkur/statu ... 20032?s=19

Quotes
Location of newly sanctioned ALG just west of Chushul airfield (unusable due to Chinese line of sight & proximity). South of PangongTso western tip.

I visited nearby mess, on way back from PangongTso

Lucky I feel, that Bharat-maa allowed me to see Ladhak beauty & history. https://t.co/pu6vTV0jN7
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Haridas »

chiru wrote:Likely to be at Nyoma village.
See on map in above tweet

Newspaper repot it as:
Changthang Cold Desert Wildlife Sanctuary,
Pangong Lake Rd, Merak, 194201

Quite far from Nyoma, and very close to LAC faceoff with China PLA across Spanggur Gap..

unlike Chushul airfield, this will be ~60 Km from LAC and Chushul. Good distance away from enemy Artillery, and shielded by high mountains.

Leh is 60 km west of this location.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

In a first, women pilots to run Chinook supply sorties
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 44906.html
17 Sept 2022
kit
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by kit »

ks_sachin wrote:Followed by perhaps
  • an armoured thrust across the western sector
  • naval blockade of Karachi
  • attempt to cut of PoK
OT, a joint action with Iran to liberate baluchistan is not a bad idea
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by A Deshmukh »

kit wrote:OT, a joint action with Iran to liberate baluchistan is not a bad idea
Iran has a restive Baluchistan province. Are they supporting Independent Baluchistan?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by kit »

A Deshmukh wrote:
kit wrote:OT, a joint action with Iran to liberate baluchistan is not a bad idea
Iran has a restive Baluchistan province. Are they supporting Independent Baluchistan?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7820&p=2564127#p2564127
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

IAF set to retire Abhinandan Varthaman's MiG-21 squadron this month
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 310494.cms
19 Sept 2022
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

:wink: AVM Manmohan Bahadur (R) in The Tribune, Chandigarh

Complacency can imperil National Security
Complacency can imperil national security

Let’s call a spade a spade. India’s economy — now the fifth largest in the world — would be on a shaky foundation if not backed by credible hard power. Leaders of all hues should realise that in the realm of geopolitics every nation is on its own, notwithstanding alliances and pacts; shun the cameras and push for results-based action.

Air Vice Marshal Manmohan Bahadur (retd)

Former Addl Director General, Centre for Air Power Studies


The silence on the Ladakh front, the almost-routine India-China border meetings and the yawn-inducing communiques on their conclusion stating that the “two sides reaffirmed their commitment to continue talks” must not lull New Delhi and the Indian public into a sense of complacency. It’s true that withdrawal has been completed in the Gogra-Hot Springs area lately (not the critical Depsang plains), but the danger of getting complacent is real as the public relations establishment has gone into overdrive conveying a sense that the Indian defence forces are well on their way to self-reliance, and hence better prepared, due to the aatmanirbharta (#ANB) campaign.

{Here two things are being conflated. The routine communications about the series of Commander level disengagement talks and progress achieved and the PR establishment claiming that services are on way to achieving self-reliance and better prepared due to #ANB. Don't see how they are related. The Commander level talks are by nature routine and often bland for progress is to be achieved without loss of face to China. And there must be tremendous background work behind the scenes to achieve this. As for the PR claims, yes some amount of self-reliance must have been achieved as RM drops hints now and then.}

The reality, common sense dictates, is not all that rosy for the simple reason that a military-industrial complex takes time to be built. Negative import lists promulgated by the government can have a deleterious impact on the deterrence posture if not backed by an accelerated build-up of an indigenous manufacturing ecosystem. A recent Bloomberg report says exactly this, and states that the Indian armed forces are “running out of weapons;” if true (and there has been no rejoinder by the government to this report), it should generate serious introspection for remedial measures. Two steps, at the macro policy-making level, are necessary.

{Again things are being mixed up. Deterrence is about nukes. There is no doubt in anybody's mind that nuclear deterrence is untouched. Coming to warfighting. Wars are initiated due to the perception of weakness. Currently, Indian military is forward deployed along the LAC and IAF is also in forward bases. In fact, IAF has a very high sortie rate since Galwan. Bloomberg is hardly a source to talk about Indian military reserves. True they can talk to some retired officers but they don't have a current picture. Govt has no need to counter anything. }


First, an acceptance of the truism that national institutions take decades, if not generations, to develop. Rome was not built in a day, so also Indian centres of learning, innovation, research and manufacturing will take innumerable cycles of governments, political leadership, successive chiefs of armed forces and indeed the proverbial summers. For reaching an adequate level of capacity-building, there has to be a continuity of thought, policy, availability of human expertise and finances, technical knowhow and above all, bi-partisan political acceptability of the path to be tread. National security is too important an issue to be played around with at the altar of political one-upmanship. All stakeholders must understand that modernisation and indigenisation (aka aatmanirbharta) are activities requiring widely different timelines; while the armed forces would like to stay ‘modernised’ at every moment, indigenisation requires decades to take effect. And in a raucous democracy like that of India, where elections take place literally every year, the drive to become self-sufficient in arms must be election-proof to get that all-important political continuum. To drive home this basic truth, a few facts need regurgitation. Japan’s military rise in the 19th century, of Germany between 1920 and 1940 and that of China’s PLA from 1980 till date, point to the imperativeness of very long-term national commitments to develop hard power.

{ so many thoughts in one paragraph. Yes, it takes a long time. And needs political consensus. The response is India has chosen political continuity and elected the current leadership twice and most likely will do so again. Also, he should talk to IAF leadership about the need to support indigenous programs and stop kite flying like MRFA etc. They have consistently wasted time hoping that there won't be political continuity. Due to the Ukraine War, there won't be any aircraft mfg willing to deliver any aircraft off the shelf to bolster IAF falling squadrons. Knowing Rafale is good enough the MRFA should not have been pushed except as a time waster. This caused delaying ordering the second tranche and now France has order books full. And the US in now busy re-arming to meet the new threats. Any order will come only after 4 years ie. 2026. Which is close to Mk1A run.}

Second, priorities of the armed forces and the processes demanded by government rules to meet the priorities of the war fighter need to be dovetailed. Wars are not fought and won on policy declarations and nationalistic rhetoric; they are won when the war fighter on the frontline (physical and virtual) has access to the right equipment, in right quantities and at the right time. It’s here that the Bloomberg report sounds ominous for India’s deterrence posture.

{Precisely. IAF needs to get behind the political leaders and not act like they are an island. The right weapons in the right qtys come when all are aligned. That is Clausewitz's first principle- to prepare for war. Sadly IAF has not been working to this dictum.}


India needs to be on guard as Beijing is up to its old game of creeping warfare. The agreements for Pangong Tso and Gogra-Hot Springs have created buffer zones; many military commentators have deduced these as setbacks since they effectively imply ceding control over areas that Indian troops freely patrolled pre-April 2020. Even the local councillor from Chushul has stated that the new out-of-bounds buffer zones have grasslands being used by Ladakhi graziers since ages. There is a method to this ‘creeping’ forward strategy of Beijing, as seen elsewhere in the world too.

{You are a retired officer and have the right contacts. You can verify if these commentators are true or just guessing if not gassing. They are just gassing. The reason is PLA used to patrol to the edge of LAC on trucks. Now they can't. That itself is a climb down on their part. As of the 16th Commanders' talks, the last occupation as of April 2020 is vacated. What is still left is Demchok and Depsang. Demchok is easy and could be done. But Depsang is tough and will need more persuasion and 'boring' talks.}


After the August visit of US House Speaker Nancy Pelosi to Taiwan, Chinese aircraft and naval ships have started crossing the median line in the Taiwanese Straits as a routine. The Taiwanese defence ministry reported that from August 8 to 16, between 10 and 21 PLA aircraft crossed the line each day. In the month before the visit, Chinese aircraft crossed the median just once. This effectively wears out the opponent, and the interest of friendly nations too starts waning due the fatigue factor, thereby establishing a new normal.

{Interesting but not germane. It was theatre/drama for US politics.}

Another notable observation has been that, as the China Aerospace Studies Institute of the US Air Force puts it, quoting a Chinese military scholar, “Military drills that simulate actual battles have become the new normal. China can now decide whether a future exercise will seamlessly be turned into actual combat.” A similar view has been expressed by the Centre for Strategic and International Studies that “...the ambiguity of whether something is an exercise or the beginning of an attack is intentional,” as outlined in Science of Military Strategy, a textbook published by China's National Defence University. Doesn’t this ring a bell? This is exactly how the eastern Ladakh crisis started when PLA formations that were ostensibly exercising were diverted to the LAC and India presented a fait accompli. That our armed forces reacted with alacrity and stopped their further ingress does not bury the fact that we are still, two years down the line, trying to ‘persuade’ the Chinese to return to the pre April 2020 positions.

{Again same comment. Military drills have to simulate combat they are not fun and games as the Chinese scholar thinks. Demchok and Depsang are the only areas left beyond the old claim line of 1962. What was achieved is tremendous. India averted the Cuban Missile crisis of the 21st Century.}

So, let’s call a spade a spade. India’s economy — now the fifth largest in the world — would be on a shaky foundation if not backed by credible hard power. Voids exist in our equipment profile. Leaders of all hues should realise that in the realm of geopolitics every nation is on its own, notwithstanding alliances and pacts; shun the cameras and push for results-based action.

{India is on track to become the third largest economy by 2030. And we all should march to that tune. Leaders are aware and are funding programs to ensure the military is well equipped.}
The author is a scholar officer and headed an IAF think tank CAPS, set up by our guru Cdre Jasjit Singh and hence deserves a reply and not blown off on Twitter.

I will try to answer in italics my comments on his remarks in the above text itself.

I hope he means well and has been fed erroneous information by ill-meaning folks.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Haridas »

@ramana
To make your inline observations more readable, Pls consider using colored fonts for your observations.

One para towards end has wrong italics
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by MeshaVishwas »

ramana wrote:
I think he means well and has been fed erroneous information by ill-meaning folks.
I sense from his sm activity that he is one of those afsars that feel "what do the dhoti wearing bleddy civilians know about national security?"

CAPS now has Air Marshal Anil Chopra as the boss,fan of his work.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote::wink: AVM Manmohan Bahadur (R) in The Tribune, Chandigarh
....................
The author is a scholar officer and headed an IAF think tank CAPS, set up by our guru Cdre Jasjit Singh and hence deserves a reply and not blown off on Twitter.

I will try to answer in italics my comments on his remarks in the above text itself.

I hope he means well and has been fed erroneous information by ill-meaning folks.
https://twitter.com/HariRam42245512/sta ... pxiyMr05Vg ---> Nowadays, on social media I am seeing a lot of outdated 75 plus year old Air Force retirees openly exposing how little they know about aircraft design or manufacture. Many know a lot about operating foreign aircraft.

https://twitter.com/HariRam42245512/sta ... pxiyMr05Vg ---> One person said he would prefer lower caliber Russian Gatling on LCH rather than Nexter 20mm. I am astonished that he did not talk about weight of Gatling and the fact that:

1. If gun is fixed whole Heli must turn at target
2. If Gatling slews then weight of slewing actuators

https://twitter.com/HariRam42245512/sta ... pxiyMr05Vg ---> What no one talks about is the thousands of unsatisfactory foreign aircraft India bought and made good of them. Mental colonization makes even our forces veterans contemptuous of Indian stuff. At some stage industry and forces must cooperate without spitting at each other.

https://twitter.com/HariRam42245512/sta ... pxiyMr05Vg ---> All those retirees who question indigenous content of Indian defence systems talk like great nationalists who do not personally touch any foreign item at home and have no relatives abroad. It is plain mental colonization and admiration of phoren. Personal life justifies attitude.

https://twitter.com/HariRam42245512/sta ... pxiyMr05Vg ---> Whenever a foreign aircraft is modified, the foreign OEM has to come & certify it. The Air Force has been perfectly happy with that. Now these old codgers are resisting the idea of an Indian aircraft that can be certified in India saying "It has foreign components" wtf?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

Shiv's joke is the Russian Gatling is 30 mm. So not lower caliber!
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

“Chinooks, Akash missiles, Rafales… lot of new equipment has arrived”: Eastern Air Command Chief

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... fUF2a_SIBg ---> This is big. Former IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria (Retired) has joined as Chief Nodal Officer of the Uttar Pradesh Defence Industrial Corridor.

Official Website of UPDIC ---> https://upeida.up.gov.in/updic/en/

Image
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by dkhare »

Excellent news!
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... fUF2a_SIBg ---> This is big. Former IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria (Retired) has joined as Chief Nodal Officer of the Uttar Pradesh Defence Industrial Corridor.

Official Website of UPDIC ---> https://upeida.up.gov.in/updic/en/
Indian industry has potential, capability to support IAF: Air Marshal Vibhas Pande
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 535454.cms
29 Sept 2022
ramana
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

It's a good appointment.
ACM will jump start UPDIC

The plan is to make it an Aerospace feeder.
Glad he took charge.

Note he never wasted time writing opeds.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by YashG »

ramana wrote:It's a good appointment.
ACM will jump start UPDIC

The plan is to make it an Aerospace feeder.
Glad he took charge.

Note he never wasted time writing opeds.
Few private company has announced any major setup in UPDIC. Only govt. agencies who have been asked by govt. have setup anything in the belt. UPDIC is more of a regional development project - it will help in industrialisation of that region and regional politics but as far as national defence is concerned, it's a suboptimal effort.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by kit »

I guess that's the case when we don't have a full spectrum tier suppliers in place. Will happen with time.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

YashG wrote:
Few private company has announced any major setup in UPDIC. Only govt. agencies who have been asked by govt. have setup anything in the belt. UPDIC is more of a regional development project - it will help in industrialisation of that region and regional politics but as far as national defence is concerned, it's a suboptimal effort.
Not quite.

This effort is quite young.

With multiple such industrial zones and coupled with the push from the government of India for as close to 100% self reliance as possible in defence related matters. It's only a matter of time that such zones start to make a difference.

I will take the example of iPhone assembly in India. 5 years ago, it was considered to be a joke that the assembly of this device will happen in India. Today the latest phones are getting made. Including the one I am posting from.


You can say that the SOC and every other major component is still getting imported for assembly. But over a period of time, more and more components will be made in India.

What I am saying is that we should give it time to mature and fully develop.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by YashG »

Pratyush wrote:
With multiple such industrial zones and coupled with the push from the government of India for as close to 100% self reliance as possible in defence related matters. It's only a matter of time that such zones start to make a difference.

I will take the example of iPhone assembly in India. 5 years ago, it was considered to be a joke that the assembly of this device will happen in India. Today the latest phones are getting made. Including the one I am posting from.


What I am saying is that we should give it time to mature and fully develop.
Pratyushji, I agree that such zones should be developed. But the choice of zone in UP is more useful towards helping less industrialised areas of country to catchup. In that sense this zone is a public welfare scheme (not at all bad) and also political move and not exactly the optimal move to allocate scarce defence budget. We should money from other allocations for public welfare scheme. Defence is sacrosanct.

You cannot get the right kind of talent to stay in Jhansi or chitrakoot. So even if PSUs move there, only fully dependent ancillaries (few) will move along. Partially dependent ancillaries (many) will not move in and there will be no synergistics effect of being in same area.

Few private companies that will move in - will move in due to some quid pro quo like being given a order (like 2 lakh carbines to SSS if u build them in Aligarh). When a company moves in due to such a factor, it will not let the same plant become export competitive and hence the idea of using state money to develop a MIC and dod exports will not get realised.

I have studied cluster effects and these clusters effects happen only if the cluster has basic minimum inputs for becoming self sustaining and agglomerative hub. In this case a lot of public money spent will not lead to the agglomerative effects that could have been realised if the zone was setup in a more optimal place. This defence money being spent can go a lot further if properly optimized for cluster effects and not ofcourse political ends.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ashishvikas »

A frightening fighter gap in the IAF

- Angad Singh

https://www.deccanherald.com/specials/a ... 49900.html
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ramana »

ashishvikas wrote:A frightening fighter gap in the IAF

- Angad Singh

https://www.deccanherald.com/specials/a ... 49900.html

IAF senior officers are responsible for this.
No amount of articles will change their minds.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Kakkaji »

The IIT Kanpur is located in the UPDIC. So, why should there be a shortage of qualified manpower in this area? Kanpur was one of the most industrialised cities in pre-independence India. Gwalior is also close to UPIDC though not in UP itself. I don’t see any issues with livability if investment comes.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/vkansagra/status/15 ... mlnT09a0tA ---> Indian Air Force definitely knows how to be in sync. Patch worn by Rudra crew. Don't miss "Know your Air Force" static display at Ahmedabad.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... fUF2a_SIBg ---> This is big. Former IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria (Retired) has joined as Chief Nodal Officer of the Uttar Pradesh Defence Industrial Corridor.
https://twitter.com/BrahMosMissile/stat ... 3OVSZTafTg ---> Newly appointed Chief Nodal Officer of UPDIC, Former Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria, today visited BrahMos HQ, met DG (BrahMos), CEO & MD, @ad_rane & discussed Bhatgaon Production Facility & other aspects of BRAHMOS development activities at Lucknow.

https://twitter.com/BrahMosMissile/stat ... 3OVSZTafTg ---> He has assured full guidance and support for establishment of facility in proposed time frame.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Cyrano »

Excellent choice to put Bhadhuria ji in charge of this new agency.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 0CMRC_UiJw ---> By middle of next decade, all squadrons of Jaguar, Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 would be phased out. IAF is also preparing for worst case scenario i.e. protracted intense conflict: IAF Chief.

https://twitter.com/mave7781/status/157 ... 0CMRC_UiJw ---> Impossible to conduct 24×7 Air Defence Ops with current squadron strength: IAF Chief
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

I wonder which of the three squadrons (No 28 First Supersonics, No 47 Black Archers and No 223 Tridents) will be moving to Srinagar.

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 0CMRC_UiJw ---> "Srinagar-based No 51 'Sword Arms’ Squadron of MiG-21s is being replaced by MiG-29UPG": IAF Chief Air Marshal VR Chaudhari.

https://twitter.com/manishindiatv/statu ... 0CMRC_UiJw ---> MiG-29UPG fighters will replace MiG-21 Bison (No 51 Squadron) in Kashmir. The Bisons Squadron, flown by Group Captain Abhinandan, during post Balakot airstrike, decommissioned from Srinagar air base last month. So Kashmir airspace got more power.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Dilbu »

How the IAF has come on board for theatrisation process
Within days of India getting its new chief of defence staff (CDS), the Indian Air Force (IAF), which was the main opponent among the three services to threatrisation of the military owing to its ‘limited assets’, has given its consent to the process, albeit with some riders. IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Vivek Ram Chaudhari has said that the air force has recently updated its doctrine to keep it relevant and the next step would be to use its doctrines and well-trained manpower to evolve employment philosophies and concepts of operations. “This would require joint planning and joint execution of plans. No single service can win wars on its own and this holds good even for the future,” Air Chief Marshal Chaudhari said.

While making it clear that the IAF was not opposing the creation of theatre commands, he added: “We’ve certain reservations with respect to structures... We’re fully supporting the integration process, and the structures should be future-ready and should synergise core competencies.”
Former CDS General Bipin Rawat, who had begun the process, had upset the IAF by calling the force a “supporting arm”, like the artillery or engineers.
Air Chief Marshal Chaudhari pointed out that air power had the unique capability of undertaking independent strategic operations as well as operations coordinated with sister services and other arms of the national security apparatus. “We understand the imperativeness of joint planning and execution in future wars and are keen on integrating the efforts of the three services. We believe the model of integration that we adopt should be future-ready. It should reduce levels of decision-making and capitalise on the strength of all three services,” he said, calling for an “organisational structure that is best suited for Indian conditions and our geopolitical imperatives”.

On the theatre commands, a former IAF chief had once said, “We are not at the beck and call of every battalion commander who wants air support. We are a strategic force.” Even Air chief marshal Chaudhari had earlier said a separate air defence command would prove to be “counterproductive”.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by kit »

Theater commands mean assets of IAF IN and IA are dispersed to separate regions and integrated. There are no separate forces along the lines of separate army or air force, is this not the idea of theaterisation?

Does the question of "we are a strategic force" even arise?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

kit wrote:....
Please do a grammar check of your posts before hitting submit. I have edited your above post. Makes it easier for other readers. Thank You.
hnair
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by hnair »

Also kit, can you not do
1) one liner replies by quoting bigger posts ? In this age of phone browsing, it is a pain when you keep doing that. I have requested you to not do that before too
2) posts in hot-pink fonts. If you want your posts to attract attention and be read, post something that makes interesting reading and I can assure you that most of us will read it, regardless of gender-fluid fonts
BenG
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by BenG »

X-Post from the Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019 thread...
nachiket wrote:hnair saar, wonderful post showing what a cesspit the forces have to navigate to get what they need. The other side of the coin however is the question of which acquisitions the armed forces choose to spend their time and effort in getting through this labyrinthine process. For example, the IA managed to convince all our Humphrey Applebees to clear the acquisition for six Apaches despite it being obvious to everyone that it was merely a product of a turf war with the IAF and an utter waste of $1 billion especially when we are severely lacking in bread and butter stuff in so many areas. The one time where we really needed our baboos and ministers to display their considerable prowess in bureaucratic lethargy and inaction they failed at even that.
Yeah! Apache buy by Indian army essentially became an ego problem for its generals. We don't have clearly defined roles for our armed forces which squanders away resources on duplication. In my opinion, Helicopter should all be handed by Indian army since it serves the ground forces the most. All roles such as ground support from air, anti-tank operations, transporting supplies and troops being done by helicopters are essentially primary support done for troops holding the front. IAF's responsibilities should be only fixed wing aircraft strategic transport over longer distances with fixed wing aircraft, aerial threats coming from enemy aircraft and deep strike into enemy infrastructure to cripple enemy logistics/combat capability.
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

BenG wrote:Yeah! Apache buy by Indian army essentially became an ego problem for its generals. We don't have clearly defined roles for our armed forces which squanders away resources on duplication. In my opinion, Helicopter should all be handed by Indian army since it serves the ground forces the most. All roles such as ground support from air, anti-tank operations, transporting supplies and troops being done by helicopters are essentially primary support done for troops holding the front. IAF's responsibilities should be only fixed wing aircraft strategic transport over longer distances with fixed wing aircraft, aerial threats coming from enemy aircraft and deep strike into enemy infrastructure to cripple enemy logistics/combat capability.
Don’t create a problem where one does not exist.

Apart from attack heptrs and CAS I dont see what the problem is.

By that logic even transport in NE and Ladakh is for Army support or did you think that a lot of the heavy equipment appeared in the Ladakh sector without the AF’s help?
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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by BenG »

ks_sachin wrote:Don’t create a problem where one does not exist.

Apart from attack heptrs and CAS I dont see what the problem is.

By that logic even transport in NE and Ladakh is for Army support or did you think that a lot of the heavy equipment appeared in the Ladakh sector without the AF’s help?
Sorry Sachin. Just because you are blind to a problem doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The Indian airforce has HAL Rudra, HAL Light Combat Helicopter, Mi-35 Hind and Apache AH-64E dedicated for close air support. Yet the Indian Army with 97 LCH requirement overshadows the IAF's 65 by a huge margin which means the resources Indian air force plans to allocate to close air support is far less than what army is planning to do. IAF prioritizes MRFA and even discussed about strategic bombers. But in Kargil their main failure was not being able to bomb entrenched enemy positions safely using Mi-35. Yet they have ordered far less LCH than army. When IAF was out-ranged by PAF F-16 after balkot strike, IAF played up the issue and single-mindedly pursued meteor and Rafale. The air chief then said if Rafale were there the outcome would have been different. S-400 was bought to match chinese air defense despite it not being an offensive platform and creating a US-India CAATSA circus. But they did not place LCH LSP orders in whole of 2019 despite IOC being granted in January. Later they flew missions on LCH in 2020 without placing orders. The air force mindset is that ground warfare is beneath its high status. On the theatre commands, a former IAF chief had once said, “We are not at the beck and call of every battalion commander who wants air support. We are a strategic force.”. If Air force preference is to be involved in strategic operations, then let army own CAS and transport assets needed for day to day operations.

During Kargil war, Army sought govt approval for air support on 11 May 1999, it was cleared on 25 May. 15 days is too high for a cold-start like doctrine to work. If Army had operational control of chinook and Mi-17, troop movement will be swift and armored thrusts will be effective. It will give army a lot of flexibility to plan troop movements along a wide front with pakistan. One of the reasons Indian army has such a huge pool of personnel is the lack of mobility, we need jawans to man every outpost since rapid deployment is not possible now. Mules are still in high usage in army since we don't have roads in mountains that can be open all through the year. Air transport is the right answer to these challenges.

I'll try to explain how ammunition dropped from air need to be designed for army's requirements and not air force's. With regard to effectiveness of weapons on terrain, Indian army has more on ground information about how weapons work in mountainous terrain. Himalayas is our primary battlefield. A thousand pound bomb that is off by 100 meter will be effective on the plains. But it will be ineffective in mountainous terrain. The variety of weapons we may need on the terrain would be more useful if the army led the design than air force.

IAF's strategic role should be to identify and hit enemy air bases, logistics and provide early warning information to army staff. IAF's transport role should be to carry chinook, Apache and LCH to the next theatre like border with china in ladakh where they can be reused to deploy personnel and ammunition to front-lines to stall any intervention from them effectively. Rather than duplicating assets due to turf wars, IAF can disengage from roles it does not prioritize. There is a space war that is bound to happen soon and IAF can turn its focus there. It can make sure Indian satellites and space based assets are protected from Chinese threats.

To conclude just because something flies does not mean it is meant for air force and rotarcraft are an essential means to fight for army compared to air force.
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