Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14331
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

Yes Manish but there was background to it, they took the unthinkable decision to do Pokhran 1998 changing the status quo- they were in the gunsights of the whole world and so called international powers were itching to intervene.

The Kosovo conflict, Pakis saying they are Mujhaideen nothing to with the PA, and our Government tying the hands of our forces not to cross the LOC meant that international powers - who probably knew of the infiltration before hand could not really interfere as it was as the International theme at that time between the Indian Miltary and Freedom Fighters. If you remember Chinese had also built troops for infiltration in the FInger area simultanously.

The Pakis had game planed for International Intervention in the name of "Nuclear Flashpoint", their experience at Siachen made them think it was impossible to kick them out of the heights , but with great innovation like Mig 25 recee aircraft and then subsequent bombing of PA camp in Muntho Dhalo - where hundreds of Paki soldiers were vaporized was not visualised by them. Nawaz Sharif later admitted Pakis KIA was around 2500 in the conflict.

Bill Clinton intervened heavily once the Paki Goose was cooked. ABV had to obey- Please see how the Indian economy Tanked in the Post Pokhran Sanctions - ABV could not ignore these economic compulsions.

In fact in end of May 1999- everbody thought Pakis had won, it was only through the Miracle at Tololing, the bombing at Muntho Dhalo did the tied turn and the Pakistan Army asked Nawaz SHarif to go Bill Clinton and save thier ass when they had lost after we captured Tiger Hill so that they can have the fig leaf of US intervention and withdrawal.
Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5383
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Manish_P »

I know and agree sir. About the nuclear war bogey raised by the big ones itching to interfere and cripple us, saving their munna as well.

All I am saying is that it would not be correct to say that our generals thought of holding on to enemy territory (actually our own, illegally occupied by the pakis) as an after-thought, due to the benefit of hind-sight.
Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1769
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Khalsa »

some facts are getting distorted here.
PA KIA was not 2500 but much less. They also claim a similarly high figure for us which is a lie.
Remember Mountains eat men and we were attacking so that was two things which were chewing our man power like anything.
Attacking ratios were set higher than plains area attack numbers.

Bill Clinton was begged to intervene because the situation was not de-escalating and likely to expand to areas past the LoC.

Last not least ..... I have not met any or many Indians who thought Pakis had won in the month of May.
The whole summer was open and the paltan was learning to adapt to new tactics in shadows of Kargil and things were picking up.
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14331
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

Khalsa wrote:some facts are getting distorted here.
PA KIA was not 2500 but much less. They also claim a similarly high figure for us which is a lie.
Remember Mountains eat men and we were attacking so that was two things which were chewing our man power like anything.
Attacking ratios were set higher than plains area attack numbers.

Bill Clinton was begged to intervene because the situation was not de-escalating and likely to expand to areas past the LoC.

Last not least ..... I have not met any or many Indians who thought Pakis had won in the month of May.
The whole summer was open and the paltan was learning to adapt to new tactics in shadows of Kargil and things were picking up.
This is a number given Nawaz Sharif, the then PM of Pakistan- we claimed something 600-700 dead, but excluding some casualties in our Air strikes, we also struck some of their camps on their side of the LOC. Our Air stike in Muntho Dhalo camp was devastating.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 711896.cms
The Pakistan Army lost 2,700 military personnel in the Kargil
Another good read about Kargil

https://carnegieendowment.org/2012/09/2 ... -pub-49421
Maria
BRFite
Posts: 212
Joined: 15 Aug 2020 13:50

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Maria »

Aditya_V wrote:
Khalsa wrote:some facts are getting distorted here.
PA KIA was not 2500 but much less. They also claim a similarly high figure for us which is a lie.
Remember Mountains eat men and we were attacking so that was two things which were chewing our man power like anything.
Attacking ratios were set higher than plains area attack numbers.

Bill Clinton was begged to intervene because the situation was not de-escalating and likely to expand to areas past the LoC.

Last not least ..... I have not met any or many Indians who thought Pakis had won in the month of May.
The whole summer was open and the paltan was learning to adapt to new tactics in shadows of Kargil and things were picking up.
This is a number given Nawaz Sharif, the then PM of Pakistan- we claimed something 600-700 dead, but excluding some casualties in our Air strikes, we also struck some of their camps on their side of the LOC. Our Air stike in Muntho Dhalo camp was devastating.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 711896.cms
The Pakistan Army lost 2,700 military personnel in the Kargil
Another good read about Kargil

https://carnegieendowment.org/2012/09/2 ... -pub-49421
The Pakistan Army lost 2,700 military personnel in the Kargil conflict, far higher than its casualties during the 1965 and 1971 wars with India, former Pakistan prime minister Nawaz Sharif has said in his memoirs.
I am not able to copy what Badmash Prime says at the bottom of the article (last paragraph) but he says that the casualties were higher than the combined casualties of 1971 and 1965.

If that is true, their Kargil count will be higher than 9,000 killed from the 1971 war and 3,800 from the 1965 war.
ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4053
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ArjunPandit »

from what i remember NLI was literally wiped out..should be a good no.
nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9097
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by nachiket »

While the number was definitely higher than the PA jarnails will accept we have to be careful in believing everything that badmash says. His statements about Kargil are always part of the blame game between him and Musharraf about who was responsible for the fiasco.
Anujan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7806
Joined: 27 May 2007 03:55

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Anujan »

After just one battle -- India buried 53 Pakistani soldiers. (This after the battle to take Point 4875 -- gun hill).

By some accounts, India conducted funeral rites and buried over 200 Pakistani soldiers, those B*stards refused to take back their own dead, because they wanted to keep up the "mujahideen phreedom phyters" narrative.

Official Pakistani figures are probably "3 TFTAs died, after they killed over 300,000 SDREs"
Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1769
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Khalsa »

I am very happy to sit with what Thal Sena claimed. 600 to 1100.
I believe the total number of Pakistani bodies on our side were less than 400.

Attacking ratios at each pimple, knob, hump were changed in the ratio of 1:9 as Paltan adapted tactics beyond the LoS of Paki Observation points.
This not only should indicate that we had a higher price to pay but also the Pakistani needed much less numbers to defend so I do not believe their casualty count exceeds their 65 and 71 wars. That is utter BS and the make do of an overzealous kid on our side.

Man on higher ground has many many advantages.
Velocity of bullet landing on the helmet of the challenger was better for the Paki. Gravity helps the bullet going down.
Indian rifle bullets must fly in parabolic trajectory to hit the enemy soldier when he is at height and behind a boulder for cover. Almost like artillery
Pakis are not climbing but waiting hence not out of breath and out of step. Heart rate steady for steady shots.
We are climbing rarified air where the O2 %age is now well below Plains Sea level.
We are carting ammo upwards ... they are well stocked and waiting.

and by the way I have no idea now what we are debating and why

:D Happy Saturday all
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by jamwal »

So many wars fought by soldiers of @adgpi, yet they steal pictures of American soldiers from World War 2 for their own media releases. Pathetic shameless behavior for an organisation which puts so much emphasis on honour. :roll:

Image

Image
Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5383
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Manish_P »

^ really bad. Did they hire some external private agency for this?
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by jamwal »

They've been doing it for quite some time, it is not the first time. Even if it is outsourced to some private agency (which may or may not be owned by some general or his relatives), it is still Indian Army doing so and reflects badly on every one.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

jamwal wrote:So many wars fought by soldiers of @adgpi, yet they steal pictures of American soldiers from World War 2 for their own media releases. Pathetic shameless behavior for an organisation which puts so much emphasis on honour. :roll:
Unless my eyes are deceiving me, is that not a Sikh solider (second from left)?

It looks like they have stolen the idea.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

I checked and the first picture you posed is a real statue of Indian Army soldiers in Shimla, Himachal Pradesh. See these links below.

https://pixabay.com/photos/indian-flag- ... e-2644512/

https://www.alamy.com/silhouette-of-ind ... 84372.html
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by jamwal »

Even more ridiculous then that they've stolen the concept for a memorial. I guess it must be at Mall Road, Shimla. Didn't notice it last time I was there.
ManSingh
BRFite
Posts: 312
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 17:30

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ManSingh »

The second image above is an image from The battle of Iwo Jima during World War 2. It was captured by an AP photographer when US Marine Corps raised the US flag on Iwo Jima.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_t ... n_Iwo_Jima

This photo was later made into a sculpture which seems to have inspired the Shimla war memorial.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

jamwal wrote:Even more ridiculous then that they've stolen the concept for a memorial. I guess it must be at Mall Road, Shimla. Didn't notice it last time I was there.
Sirjee, we come from the land of Anu Malik. Anything is possible.
TKiran
BRFite
Posts: 997
Joined: 13 Dec 2009 00:22

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by TKiran »

Image
Labor statue in marina beach in Madras

On a summer evening in May 1923, M. Singaravelar, a labour union leader, conducted a meeting at the Marina Beach near Triplicane, calling for recognition of workers' rights, and pledged to create a political party to represent the rights of labourers, which was India's first ever May Day rally.[2] To commemorate this, the Labour statue, depicting an inspiring posture of a team of labourers engrossed at arduous work, was sculpted by Debi Prasad Roy Chowdhury, who was the first Indian principal of the then Government of Madras School of Arts and Crafts (what is today the Tamil Nadu Government College of Fine Arts)[3] and was erected on 25 January 1959, unveiled by the then Governor of Madras, Bishnuram Medhi.[citation needed]

A.P. Srinivasan, a night watchman at the School of Arts and Crafts, was the model for second and fourth men from the left while Ramu, a student modeled for the other two men.[4]
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32226
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by chetak »

Rakesh wrote:
jamwal wrote:Even more ridiculous then that they've stolen the concept for a memorial. I guess it must be at Mall Road, Shimla. Didn't notice it last time I was there.
Sirjee, we come from the land of Anu Malik. Anything is possible.

who ever is responsible for this should be shot.

it's phenomenally cringe worthy.
Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5383
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Manish_P »

There are quite a few phenomenal photos of our jawans holding the tricolor aloft on the kargil heights.

Should have used one of those..

Edited -

Some personal favorites

(Mods - please excuse large size images, kindly help resize, if necessary)

Image
(From notapennyformythoughts.blogspot.com)

Image
(From IndiaSentinels.com)

Image
(From Indiatimes.com)

Love the quiet stoicism of the Jawan with the thousand yard stare, squatting at the right..
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by jamwal »

Is a newly commissioned officer in the Indian Army given a higher status than a JCO (especially a Subedar Major)?
https://www.quora.com/Is-a-newly-commis ... edar-major
Vijay Rajdhan Updated January 22 · Upvoted by Raj Kumar , former Vetren at Indian Army (1980-2019) and Soldat Inconnu , former Officer at Indian Army



(For those not familiar with Indian Army's rank of Subedar Major, he could be equated to US Army's E9)

Subedar Major of a unit is not a person. He is an institution. By the time he becomes a SM invariably he has already 30 years service behind him. He as a havildar, could have seen his present CO arrive in the Unit as a young lieutenant.

I recall a few incidents that I am mentioning here to drive home how much authority he enjoys.

1964. I was then serving as a young 23-24 year old Captain as the 2 i/c of Gorkha Boys Company.(GBC). It was a kind of NDA for Gorkha servicemen's children. One day on my way to PT in the morning, I had a mishap. My scooter skidded on a turn and I went sliding on the gravel for 15-20 feet. All skin on my left arm was gone. It took me some minutes to collect myself, right the scooter one-handed, and get going again. I was 10 minutes late on parade. The senor JCO (GBC's equivalent of SM) had not marched off the parade. Reporting done, parade marched off, he walked upto me and started giving me a bit of his mind. He had seen me arrive, hobble on to the ground and had noticed my badly bruised arm.

I had to quietly listen to him. He had more service than my age then. He didn't approve of my arrival on parade without getting medical attention. When I got a chance to put my word in, I said, “ I had to come to the parade ground directly to march off the parade, Knowing you you would wait for my arrival.” That was what he had done. Everyone was awaiting my arrival to march off the parade.

That was Subedar (Honorary Lieutenant) Prem Bahadur Gurung, 5 GR.

1965. Our new unit was being raised and I was doing the Adjutant's and the Second-in-command's duty. We had 14 EC commissioned second lieutenants posted from our Regimental Centre. ORs being posted to the unit were coming from our older units and even from other Gorkha regiments. It was a heterogeneous mix that had to be coalesced into a homogeneous outfit. CO's directions were to go out on route marches every week once by day and once by night.

In my over-enthusiasm, I once stretched our route march. On the way back after a gruelling 24 miles march, I had every one run for the last mile or so. It was tough for the older people; JCOs and senior NCOs.

Next day the SM walked in my office and told me in no uncertain terms that I had over reached yesterday. I at once realized that my action of the previous afternoon was quite unwarranted. I assured him that I got his message.

That was Subedar Major (Honoraty Captain) Sattajit Pun, Vr C, 1 GR. We had served a few years earlier together in Congo.

1978. By now I was commanding my unit. In eighteen years with my Regiment I had still not been able to live with the killing of animals during our Dussain pooja. Year and a half into my tenure, I broached the subject again with my SM to seek out opinions of all JCOs, NCOs and ORs if we could do away with the sacrifice of two male buffalo calves during Dussain. The SM smilingly advised me that it was not going to be accepted by anyone. He had already known my view on the matter and tried to dissuade me through his smile.

Upon my insistence to check with everyone he agreed to seek out views of the Paltan. A few days later he confirmed that the sacrifice will have to continue as not one person was in favour of discontinuing it.

That was Subedar Major (Honorary Lieutenant) Jahar Singh Thapa, 1 GR.

That settled the matter. I had to look away at the instant the khukri (Gorkhas' curved bladed knife) went down. Very next instant I had to walk upto him, shake him by his hand, tie a turban around his head and thank him for doing a good job. A clean cut in one stroke in Dussain is important. A repeat stroke is considered a bad omen for the unit.

A CO too cannot afford to ignore his Subedar Major's advice on certain matters.

A lieutenant just out of the Academy is only a rank higher than the Subedar Major. He can draw comfort from the fact everyone above him upto his Commanding Officer value SM's opinion and advice. He better too.

GBC had a strength of nearly 150 boys. We rostered Gorkha servicemen who used to apply for a vacancy for their boy to get 3 year training. This was a preparatory course before the boys went to the gorkha regimental training centres for formal military training to become a young soldiers. There were no costs for the parent.

Besides the basics like drill, PT and short range firing (.22 calibre rifles); lot of time was given to education, map reading and sports. This clearly put them ahead of their peers after completing their stint at the Regimental Training Centre.

Several boys trained during my tenure ended up as SMs in their units. One ex-boy, Patti Ram Gurung, (of my company in 5/1 GR) son of 1GR JCO got an MVC (P) in the 1971 war. These boys even participated in the 26 Jan Parade in Delhi. In 1964 they were adjudged the second best marching contingent. I was cheering them on Rajpath as they went marching past.

I was relieved by my NDA batchmate of my own Regiment in Dec 1964. It was during his tenure orders were received to wind up this unit. Over the next couple of years as the boys passed out, strength diminished and finally the shop closed down.

Around 2000, I had a chance to see the GBC lines. I had in 1963 all the 150 boys plant a litchi sapling each. They were made individually responsible for caring for the sapling planted. By 2000, those saplings were full grown 37 years old fruit bearing trees. An ASC unit of a local formation was billeted in those lines and were enjoying the fruit. They were quite surprised to see an old fogey staking claim to their orchard.

First Dussain in my Paltan could have become very un-nerving. At night for the Kalratri Balidan, the SM shouted at some one get the Kancha Saab (Me) to slaughter a goat. I disappeared as fast as I could slipping through the assembled crowd and tucked myself in our Officers' Mess store. At that hour around midnight it was the safest place. I emerged after the Mahurat for the Balidaan had passed.

GBC's Senior JCO, Hony Lt Padam Bahadur Gurung, 5 GR taught me a lot about regimental soldiering.

Reminiscing.
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by jamwal »

Manish_P wrote:There are quite a few phenomenal photos of our jawans holding the tricolor aloft on the kargil heights.


Image
(From Indiatimes.com)

Love the quiet stoicism of the Jawan with the thousand yard stare, squatting at the right..
Last one is front cover of General Ved Prakash Malik's book on Kargil
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 87011?s=20 ---> Report: Indian Army's 17 Mountain Strike corps to have 'Four' Integrated Battle Groups (IBGs). Whereas the 9 Corps which is meant for offensives across the International Boundary (against Sialkot & Gujranwala) will also have 3-4 IBGs.
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by jamwal »

This seems interesting. Most big armies like USA, Russia and China use formations like these. Majority of Chinese armed forces have been reorganised on this pattern while US and Russia have a mix. It will be interesting to see how and when the commanders are trained to utilise all that combined fire power. Is there any information about size and composition of Indian IBGs?
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 87011?s=20 ---> Report: Indian Army's 17 Mountain Strike corps to have 'Four' Integrated Battle Groups (IBGs). Whereas the 9 Corps which is meant for offensives across the International Boundary (against Sialkot & Gujranwala) will also have 3-4 IBGs.
What's the difference between a IBG and a division. As most of the corps have 3 divisions already.

So why not just re organise the division it self. For plains, give it 2 armoured brigades and 1 mechanised inf brigade.

Look forward to the orbat of these IBG.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

ParGha Sir is very knowledgeable on IBGs. If he reads your post, he can provide more clarity.

Till then ---> https://www.olivegreens.co.in/easyblog/ ... roups-ibgs
ParGha
BRFite
Posts: 1004
Joined: 20 Jul 2006 06:01

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ParGha »

Rakesh wrote:ParGha Sir is very knowledgeable on IBGs. If he reads your post, he can provide more clarity. Till then ---> https://www.olivegreens.co.in/easyblog/ ... roups-ibgs
Thanks, sir! Colonel Chahal does a much better and authoritative job of explaining what is an IBG.

As to Pratyush's question on why the entire Divisions under a Corps cannot be converted to a giant IBGs, the answer lies in readiness requirements for an IBG: To mobilize and attack within 24-hours, you need to be fully resourced at all times... which is humanly impossible with the same people and machines (officers and soldiers go on trainings, leave, deputations, etc; machines go in for repairs and replacement).

As a rough rule of thumb, you can only keep 1/3rd of you forces on high state of readiness for extended periods of time. Why 1/3rd of each Division, rather than 1 out of every 3 Divisions? I am not sure. A lot of local and detailed calculations have to go into such choices -- road and rail capacity (mobilizing an entire Division in certain bottleneck areas can create traffic-jams and defeat the mobilization even before the first bullet is fired), C4I capacity, intended dispersion of forces (to present a smaller target to enemy air and missiles), available targets, estimated enemy reaction, etc.
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by nam »

One IBG per division will allow different axis of action. 4 divisions located at 4 places gives you 4 offensive points.

One division sized IBG would need to be broken in to 4 pieces for D-Day, if you want similar flexibility. Not to mention that each IBG would land up in a place, which it is not familiar with.

A 6K strong IBG going in to action within 24 is a very potent force. They are meant to break the door, not take over Lhasa or Slumbad. The remaining divisions and Corps will follow through one of those 4 doors.

Previously Pak needed to monitor 3 Strike corps. Now it might have to monitor 10-15 IBGs.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Thanks for your efforts to explain the IBG concept to me. But there are still some eliments in the equation that don't quite add up to me.

Once my thoughts are fully formed on the subject. I may come back with more questions.
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by jamwal »

Following is composition of 36th RAPID, (Shahbaaz) Sagar
18th Armoured Brigade
18th Infantry Brigade
72nd Infantry Brigade
87th Infantry Brigade

and this if of 1st Armoured Division, (Airavat) Patiala
1st Armoured Brigade, Nabha
43rd Armoured Brigade
98th Armoured Brigade

Not much difference between the two, atleast superficially.

Is there any difference between a RAPID and IBGs? I have not spent enough time searching for answers related to Indian army's ORBAT. Presently our divisions have 3-5 brigades like above. If IBGs will replace Brigades, then what will be composition of a Division? Or will they be replacing Divisions and serve under direct control of a Corps?

Also how does conversion in to an IBG makes deployment faster?
ks_sachin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2906
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

ParGha wrote:
Rakesh wrote:ParGha Sir is very knowledgeable on IBGs. If he reads your post, he can provide more clarity. Till then ---> https://www.olivegreens.co.in/easyblog/ ... roups-ibgs
Thanks, sir! Colonel Chahal does a much better and authoritative job of explaining what is an IBG.

As to Pratyush's question on why the entire Divisions under a Corps cannot be converted to a giant IBGs, the answer lies in readiness requirements for an IBG: To mobilize and attack within 24-hours, you need to be fully resourced at all times... which is humanly impossible with the same people and machines (officers and soldiers go on trainings, leave, deputations, etc; machines go in for repairs and replacement).

As a rough rule of thumb, you can only keep 1/3rd of you forces on high state of readiness for extended periods of time. Why 1/3rd of each Division, rather than 1 out of every 3 Divisions? I am not sure. A lot of local and detailed calculations have to go into such choices -- road and rail capacity (mobilizing an entire Division in certain bottleneck areas can create traffic-jams and defeat the mobilization even before the first bullet is fired), C4I capacity, intended dispersion of forces (to present a smaller target to enemy air and missiles), available targets, estimated enemy reaction, etc.
Also you have to consider the person in the loop. A high state of readiness for prolonged periods is very mentally taxing to the soldiers. So what you wNt to be able to do is mobilise quickly and be ready for action quickly. The psychology of combat is very important.
Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5350
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:
jamwal wrote:Even more ridiculous then that they've stolen the concept for a memorial. I guess it must be at Mall Road, Shimla. Didn't notice it last time I was there.
Sirjee, we come from the land of Anu Malik. Anything is possible.
Seems to me you are forgetting the incomparable bappi lahri
jaysimha
BRFite
Posts: 1696
Joined: 20 Dec 2017 14:30

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by jaysimha »


Talk by the COAS: Transformation Imperatives for the Indian Army in the Coming Decades

https://bharatshakti.in/army-chief-on-t ... 2jcnBszQji

Full text of the talk delivered by
Army Chief Gen MM Naravane at the
United Services Institution on
3 August, 2021
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/DesiEscobar07/statu ... 11938?s=20 ---->

Defence deal expected to be signed in coming weeks :

* 25 ALH Dhruv Mk3 for Rs 3,800 crore for Army Aviation Corps.
* 39 Klub ASHM for Rs 1,735 crore for Navy.
* 10 Naval Shipborne UAS.
* 125 DRWR-118 for Su30 MKI for Rs 1,000 crore.
* 6,00,000 Ak-203 for Rs 5,100 crore.
mody
BRFite
Posts: 1362
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by mody »

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/opinion/ ... hp&pc=U531

Seniority vs Merit by Lt. Gen (Retd) Dr. Prakash Menon
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14331
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

So each AK 203 rifle is going to Cost INR 85K? Hope that includes NVG , some with UBGL etc.
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5462
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Cyrano »

still no LCH orders ? :(
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Aditya_V wrote:So each AK 203 rifle is going to Cost INR 85K? Hope that includes NVG , some with UBGL etc.
That's more than what was quoted in January of this year including gun and royalty. The price would have been 70000+6000=76000.

But it was unacceptable to us. However we are now prepared to pay 85k.
Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Vips »

Does the AK 203 contract amount include the cost of setting up the manufacturing unit, tools and fixtures? If not then i would say Indian Leadership and babudom lost 2 years and handed over a few hundred crores more for nothing.
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by jamwal »

Good article
PART 1- AFGHANISTAN FALL OF A REPUBLIC AND INDIAS THREE FRONT WAR

https://colsanjaypande.com/part-1-afgha ... front-war/
THE ONLY FRONT: 1948 TO 2019

What is this ‘third’ front? India is used to just one enemy. Pakistan. Ask any General. It’s just Pakistan. We have ONLY ONE FRONT. Even the Pakistan threat is expected only in the Punjab Plains and Rajasthan. Complete J&K Sector where we share LoC with Pakistan, we don’t expect any threat ‘except’ insurgency. Just the counter-insurgency operations are sufficient to tackle the problem. This is our understanding of Pakistan as ‘single threat to India”. Kargil was brushed off, 527 killed ‘written off’, no one was to be blamed and the then COAS and chain of command not only gets clean chit but preside over functions even today. Within this ‘one’ front, our limited military and political minds could not imagine a Kargil type adventure by Pakistan.

With one front to tackle, that too only in plains, the military thinkers made the Government and the country pay for three armour and mechanized based strike corps with equally matching other arms and services. To date India has spent lacs of crores each year maintaining these strike corps without any impact and leaving the Pakistan shared borders vulnerable.

THE BIRTH OF THE SECOND FRONT : 2020

While one Republic was celebrating its 75th anniversary, another Republic was dismantled. It leaves India in a very precarious situation. Regionally we have been completely isolated by China. It has taken China just 22 years to do it. In 1998, during a talk by a ‘China Expert’ from Institute of Defence and Strategy Analysis, as a major I had asked the expert if China was encircling India by getting all neighbouring countries of India under its control by providing military equipment, funding infrastructure and building ports etc. Specific names of projects were given. The expert took two minutes to ridicule me and made me sit down. He had no answer and probably had not thought of it.

2020, a violent shake by China after the much-publicized river side friendship, shakes India. Its China all over. The same Generals, now give very serious discourses on China. Now every General talk about SECOND FRONT as if they have been practicing it for ages. Even today, 17 Aug 2021, we have not officially accepted that we have second front. From Shaksgam Valley to Kibuthu we have no central security agency to coordinate. We have Army, ITBP and SSB on borders. Army has one command covering China as a part in north and another command covers China in the east as 1/7th of its responsibility. The entire area of Himachal, Uttarakhand and Nepal is ‘free’. Nearest command starts from Sikkim.
FUTURE

India is completely isolated in the region and now faces the third front internally. What do we need to do internationally. My view-NOTHING. Focus on internal issues first to be prepared to take on the new challenges.

Internal. The third front is a situation created by our own people and brought upon on the nation. There is no one to be blamed. How do we address the Third Front?

International Borders-Under Army.
My article ONE BORDER ONE FORCE – ALL BORDERS UNDER MINISTRY OF DEFENCE https://colsanjaypande.com/one-border-o ... f-defence/ refers.
Convert existing two strike corps to mountain corps, with one existing, plan three mountain strike corps and break the third strike corps and reorganize to have numerous independent Brigade plus armour-mech formations.
Reorganizing National Reserves of Army to place one Strike Corps in J&K, one in Punjab and Rajasthan and one in East. Completely change the tactics and redesign strategy.
Theaterisation not for publicity but for effect.
Entire hinterland under Ministry of Home Affairs for security. Seamless integration of CAPFs with State Police.
Much bigger role for State Police as ‘first-responders’.
Prominent role for Home Guards.
Completely revamping of intelligence set up.
Dimensions of war be extended beyond land, air and sea to now include, cyber, trade, legal, media, psychological warfare and covert war.
Completely flood Foreign Service Cadre with the experts from all dimensions of war.
External.

Baluchistan, Sindh and Gilgit are our survival package. Before the Taliban gets over them, we need to walk on the razor-sharp edge of supporting them to keep Pakistan completely focused on their internal problems.
Focus to split Pakistan into two or three parts. The conventional military advise from ages was ‘unbroken Pakistan is in India’s national interests. We were always wrong.
Maintain distance from US.
Change mindset from ‘conventional’ war to ‘cheaper options.
We are consumed by ‘conventional’ war, it will never happen. How ready we are with doctrine on:
Trade War
Legal War
Biology War
Media War
Shipping-Sea Lanes War
War of Hinterland
Information war
Before we attempt all of the above, we first need to resolve the ‘Internal’ changes.
THIRD FRONT is all about preparing India for future.

Are we?

Col Sanjay Pande
Post Reply