Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

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srai
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by srai »

darshhan wrote:In another recent news an Army jawan Dilip Thakur was lynched in a Gurudwara in Punjab by a sikh mob just because he was a hindu. …
^^^
Dangerous allegations to make on another community. It’s like those viral but fake/half-truths WhatsApp msg that circulate around India.

Even though the British Raj ended more than 70 years ago, their policy of divide-and-rule still lives on. People still fall for it.
darshhan
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by darshhan »

srai wrote:
darshhan wrote:In another recent news an Army jawan Dilip Thakur was lynched in a Gurudwara in Punjab by a sikh mob just because he was a hindu. …
^^^
Dangerous allegations to make on another community. It’s like those viral but fake/half-truths WhatsApp msg that circulate around India.

Even though the British Raj ended more than 70 years ago, their policy of divide-and-rule still lives on. People still fall for it.
Then why this news is being suppressed. If the reverse had happened i.e. a sikh man had been lynched by hindus in a temple then imagine the outrage. I challenge openly, conduct a fair investigation and you will find that those who have lynched him are supporters of Bhindranwale. In fact you might even find posters of Bhindranwale in this gurudwara.

As far as divide and rule is concerned, this nation and its people already stand divided, but because of the extremely unfair and oppressive policies pursued by the "Secular State".

By the way did British Raj really end? Lol. Because institutions sure didn't. Whether it is Police, bureaucracy, judiciary, Army, OFB, Railways etc. Even our parliamentary democracy is mostly a copy of westminister system. What was even the point of throwing out the British?
srai
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by srai »

^^^
Ok. If you want to continue to exist in that mindset, then I’ll leave it to your opinion. Good luck.

Remember those kinds of allegations have caused a lot of harm. Lives have been lost. Some viral unfounded child kidnapping WhatsApp message broadcast (and blindly shared) ended up with tourists being killed by village lynch mobs (in multiple locations).

If you want to pursue further, get more info than just a sound bite “only because he was a Hindu” or vagueness “Gurudwara in Punjab”. How many Gurudwaras are there in the whole of Punjab? Every story has multiple viewpoints and various first hand accounts. Find out the sources. Get the background of this soldier in question and the community background. Piece together the timeline. And so on. Burden of proof is a heavy one!
darshhan
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by darshhan »

srai wrote:^^^
Ok. If you want to continue to exist in that mindset then, I’ll leave it to your opinion. Good luck.

Remember those kinds of allegations have caused a lot of harm. Lives have been lost. Some viral child kidnapping message ended up with tourists being killed by villagers lynch mobs.

If you want to pursue further, get more info than just a sound bite “only because he was a Hindu”. Every story has multiple viewpoints and various first hand accounts. Get the background of this soldier in question and the community background. And so on. Burden of proof is a heavy one!
Who and what is stopping the govt from pursuing investigation into the matter? Why is Army not taking a strong stand on the matter? Wasn't the victim one of their own? If the matter is not investigated properly and victim's family doesn't get justice in time, then to me its clear that there is more than what meets the eye.

By the way I am also producing the link below confirming what I stated.
Punjab Army man lynching case: Khalistani links of accused and supporters emerge

OpIndia



HomepageNews Reports
Punjab Army man lynching case: Khalistani links of accused and supporters emerge
OpIndia Staff | 5 July, 2021

Khalistan links of accused in Punjab Gurudwara lynching case emerge
Exploring Khalistani links of accused of Gurdaspur Lynching Case


In the recent case of lynching of an Army personnel identified as Deepak Singh in Gurdaspur, Punjab, it has been found that the main accused and the supporters have deep links with the Khalistan movement. A Twitter user AkkaPrasanna published a tweet thread in which he added a screenshot of a 2018 report of Sikh Siyasat that mentioned the release of the accused Daljit Singh alias Bobby from Police custody.

Daljit Singh alias Bobby is one of the main accused in the Army man lynching case and has been absconding. A concerted effort has already been started by pro-Khalistani voices, to claim that Bobby is innocent and the lynched Army man had committed ‘blasphemy’.


The information of the release was provided by Sikh Youth Federation Bhindranwale (SYFB) leader Ranjit Singh.


Image
Left: Screenshot of report on Daljit Singh’s release in 2017. Source: SikhSiyasat — Right: Recent photograph of Daljit Singh. Source: Deep Sidhu’s Facebook Profile

Notably, Ranjit Singh Damdami Taksal, who heads SYFB, had published a book titled “Shaheed-e-Khalistan”, glorifying the life of Khalistan terrorist Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale. It also contained biographies of other terrorists associated with the Khalistani secessionist movement, along with details of some historical events related to it. The same book was promoted and distributed by actor-turned-activist Khalistan sympathizer Deep Sidhu during farmers protest at the Delhi border. He was seen with Ranjit Singh in a photograph holding the book during the distribution drive.

Image
Left: Deep Sidhu (Left holding the book) promoting book on Bhindranwale and other militants written by Ranjit Singh (Right holding the book). Source: Hindu Post. Right: Cover of Shaheed-e-Khalistan, a book written by Ranjit Singh promoting Bhindranwale and other militants involved in Khalistani movement.

Earlier, OpIndia had mentioned Kathavachak Barjinder Singh Parwana, also a member of Damdami Taksal. He had published a video supporting the killing of Deepak Singh alleging ‘beadbi’ (disrespect) of Guru Granth Sahib. When we accessed his social media profiles on different social media platforms, we found that he has been promoting Bhindranwale openly. So much so, he has a massive tattoo of Bhindranwale’s portrait on his arm that can be seen during live videos that he had published on his social media accounts.


Image
Bhindranwale’s tattoo on Barjinder Singh Parwana clearly visible in a recent live video. Source: Barjinder Singh Parwana’s Facebook profile.

A brief history of Damdami Taksal
Damdami Taksal was founded in the 18th century by Guru Gobind Singh Ji to teach the scriptures and teachings of Guru Granth Sahib. The first head of Taksal was Baba Deep Singh Ji, one of the associates of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. The word ‘Damdami’ came from the Damdama Sahib Gurudwara, where the tenth Guru of the Sikh faith, Guru Gobind Singh Ji, dictated Granth Sahib in its present form. The word ‘Taksal’ means mint that suggests unalloyed Sikhs are produced at the institute.

Notably, Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale was a student of Damdami Taksal. He attended the institution’s branch located at the village of Chowk Mehta off the Jalandhar-Amritsar Highway. He studied the scriptures since the age of 11. At the age of 30 in 1977, Bhindranwale took charge of Damdami Taksal, and he stayed its leader till his death in 1984. It is believed that it was only after Bhindranwale taking charge of the Taksal that it became a synonym of fundamentalism and violence.

Is this enough for you? Avoid being apologetic. This one sided fawning and admiration by common hindus for Sikhs is counter productive actually. Much of this admiration is anyways based upon a falsified version of history and interpreting past events in an out of context manner.

If any IA veterans are reading this they should amplify the incident and take up this with the highest levels.
Last edited by darshhan on 07 Jul 2021 12:46, edited 1 time in total.
srai
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by srai »

^^^
Ok good for providing actual news report. As per the news report, the police are already investigating and the culprits in custody.

These are matters for the local police unless they connect to national security level where appropriate government agencies will do the work.

BTW, in your original post that army jawan name was “Dilip Thakur” but it turns out in the actual news report the army jawan’s name was “Deepak Singh”. So your original post share was already misinformed to make a name sound like someone with Hindu background.

Here is an exact quote in the news article about the victim
In the recent case of lynching of an Army personnel identified as Deepak Singh in Gurdaspur, Punjab,…
And your original post share it was this about the victim

Code: Select all

 darshhan wrote:
In another recent news an Army jawan Dilip Thakur was lynched in a Gurudwara in Punjab by a sikh mob just because he was a hindu. …
“Deepak Singh” became “Dilip Thakur” and “Gurdaspur, Punjab” became “a Gurudwara in Punjab” :mrgreen:
Last edited by srai on 07 Jul 2021 12:54, edited 1 time in total.
darshhan
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by darshhan »

srai wrote:^^^
Ok good for providing actual news report. As per the news report, the police are already investigating and the culprits in custody.

These are matters for the local police unless they connect to national security level where appropriate government agencies will do the work.
You expect Punjab Police to do a fair probe. It is like delegating a pack of wolves to guard a herd of sheep.

IA should actively monitor this case.
darshhan
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by darshhan »

srai wrote:^^^
Ok good for providing actual news report. As per the news report, the police are already investigating and the culprits in custody.

These are matters for the local police unless they connect to national security level where appropriate government agencies will do the work.

BTW, in your original post that army jawan name was “Dilip Thakur” but it turns out in the actual news report the army jawan’s name was “Deepak Singh”. So your original post share was already misinformed to make a name sound like someone with Hindu background.
Deepak Singh Thakur if I recall correctly. He was a hindu 100%.
srai
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by srai »

Ok. Continue to believe what you want. Peace out.
jamwal
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by jamwal »

If anyone doesn't want to mention it, the only mutiny against the country by armed forces personnel was also done by sikh soldiers in 1984. 5000 were arrested, court-martialed or killed. Quite a few Hindu officers were killed by mutineers too. A lot like how muslims soldiers of J&K state behaved in 1947. It will be stupid to forget how some communities of the books always put religion before country. The person who fortified sikh temple before Bluestar was a sikh senior officer too.

https://apnews.com/article/70beac35e6f6 ... d33663d04d
Havildar Hari Singh and Naik Sadhu Singh are charged with mutiny and could face death sentences if convicted, UNI said. It said both men were under 40 but gave no further details.
The two are also charged with breaking open the armory and looting arms and ammunition at the Sikh Regimental Center in Ramgarh, central Bihar, on June 10.A Hindu commander was killed and two officers were critically wounded in the uprising. Press reports said the mutineers fired weapons indiscriminately , hijacked trucks and set out for the Golden Temple in Amritsar, Punjab state.
More than 100 deserters were killed in clashes with police and troops nationwide, military sources said last June.
The Indian Army of 1.2 million - fourth largest in the world - includes about 100,000 Sikhs. The Sikhs represent about 2 percent of India’s population of approximately 730 million.
People give this community a free pass for a lot of bullshit due to their own ignorance and inferiority complex. Of course not all of them are khalistanis, hate Hindus or are supermacisist, but this ideology has deep roots among common sikhs in India as well as abroad.
Pratyush
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

srai wrote:Ok. Continue to believe what you want. Peace out.
If Mulayam Singh Yadav can exist. Then why not Deepak Singh Yadav.

BTW. Even my ancestors had Singh as middle name with Ojha as last name. Ojha has remained and Singh has been dropped.

So it's quite possible for Deepak Singh Thakur to exist.

Secondly was he lynched because he was a Hindu. We don't know?

But observable behaviour over the last few years from a part of the community in Punjab and even in Delhi can convince people that this was a mob lynching.
darshhan
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by darshhan »

srai wrote:Ok. Continue to believe what you want. Peace out.
It is not about what I believe. The fact is that the deceased soldier was a hindu. The below link has his pic. Sikhs do not a monopoly on surname "Singh". If anything they copied it from Hindus.

https://www.hindupost.in/news/armyman-l ... dwara/amp/
Khalsa
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Khalsa »

darshhan wrote:
srai wrote:^^^
Ok good for providing actual news report. As per the news report, the police are already investigating and the culprits in custody.

These are matters for the local police unless they connect to national security level where appropriate government agencies will do the work.
You expect Punjab Police to do a fair probe. It is like delegating a pack of wolves to guard a herd of sheep.

IA should actively monitor this case.
you are stepping way over the line now.
First you literally try and accuse the entire state as haven for a few loonies who can't do sh1t.
Then Punjab Police is in your gunsights
Then Indian Army is all corrupt.
What are you Jesus ?
And us the scum of the planet.

My father served in the Indian Army
His Younger brother served in the Punjab Police

They both served in Punjab during the worst of the militancy days.... I shall not have you paint my state, my religion, my ancestors on the canvas of Bharat Rakshak. Your myopic view of Punjab and its worst mirrors is reflected in the worse of my state who have equally myopic view of Hindus and Hinduism.

If you want a rant session go join some underground facebook group.
You need to be banned for months if not years.
I am reporting all your bloody posts in this thread and demand a clean up.

@Rakesh
Can we have intervention please ? BR Forums is about descend a few dozen feet below the line of decency that us BRaves have upheld for many years.
Khalsa
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Khalsa »

jamwal wrote:If anyone doesn't want to mention it, the only mutiny against the country by armed forces personnel was also done by sikh soldiers in 1984. 5000 were arrested, court-martialed or killed. Quite a few Hindu officers were killed by mutineers too. A lot like how muslims soldiers of J&K state behaved in 1947. It will be stupid to forget how some communities of the books always put religion before country. The person who fortified sikh temple before Bluestar was a sikh senior officer too.

https://apnews.com/article/70beac35e6f6 ... d33663d04d
Havildar Hari Singh and Naik Sadhu Singh are charged with mutiny and could face death sentences if convicted, UNI said. It said both men were under 40 but gave no further details.
The two are also charged with breaking open the armory and looting arms and ammunition at the Sikh Regimental Center in Ramgarh, central Bihar, on June 10.A Hindu commander was killed and two officers were critically wounded in the uprising. Press reports said the mutineers fired weapons indiscriminately , hijacked trucks and set out for the Golden Temple in Amritsar, Punjab state.
More than 100 deserters were killed in clashes with police and troops nationwide, military sources said last June.
The Indian Army of 1.2 million - fourth largest in the world - includes about 100,000 Sikhs. The Sikhs represent about 2 percent of India’s population of approximately 730 million.
People give this community a free pass for a lot of bullshit due to their own ignorance and inferiority complex. Of course not all of them are khalistanis, hate Hindus or are supermacisist, but this ideology has deep roots among common sikhs in India as well as abroad.

I never ever expected such an ignorant and religious based view from you, Jamwal.
You disappoint me and the loss is all yours on holding to your views.
darshhan
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by darshhan »

Khalsa wrote:
darshhan wrote:
You expect Punjab Police to do a fair probe. It is like delegating a pack of wolves to guard a herd of sheep.

IA should actively monitor this case.
you are stepping way over the line now.
First you literally try and accuse the entire state as haven for a few loonies who can't do sh1t.
Then Punjab Police is in your gunsights
Then Indian Army is all corrupt.
What are you Jesus ?
And us the scum of the planet.

My father served in the Indian Army
His Younger brother served in the Punjab Police

They both served in Punjab during the worst of the militancy days.... I shall not have you paint my state, my religion, my ancestors on the canvas of Bharat Rakshak. Your myopic view of Punjab and its worst mirrors is reflected in the worse of my state who have equally myopic view of Hindus and Hinduism.

If you want a rant session go join some underground facebook group.
You need to be banned for months if not years.
I am reporting all your bloody posts in this thread and demand a clean up.

@Rakesh
Can we have intervention please ? BR Forums is about descend a few dozen feet below the line of decency that us BRaves have upheld for many years.
Ok.
srai
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by srai »

Pratyush wrote:
srai wrote:Ok. Continue to believe what you want. Peace out.
If Mulayam Singh Yadav can exist. Then why not Deepak Singh Yadav.

BTW. Even my ancestors had Singh as middle name with Ojha as last name. Ojha has remained and Singh has been dropped.

So it's quite possible for Deepak Singh Thakur to exist.

Secondly was he lynched because he was a Hindu. We don't know?

But observable behaviour over the last few years from a part of the community in Punjab and even in Delhi can convince people that this was a mob lynching.
Since you’re bringing it back up, please explain this much discrepancy between a news report vs darshan’s post.

Here is an exact quote in the news articleabout the victim:
In the recent case of lynching of an Army personnel identified as Deepak Singh in Gurdaspur, Punjab,…
And the original post share was this about the victim and incident:
darshhan wrote:
In another recent news an Army jawan Dilip Thakur was lynched in a Gurudwara in Punjab by a sikh mob just because he was a hindu. …
“Deepak Singh” became “Dilip Thakur”

“Gurdaspur, Punjab” became “a Gurudwara in Punjab”

And nothing in the article about victim’s religion or background.

Either the case of twisting facts or comprehension misread.
darshhan
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by darshhan »

srai wrote:
Pratyush wrote:
If Mulayam Singh Yadav can exist. Then why not Deepak Singh Yadav.

BTW. Even my ancestors had Singh as middle name with Ojha as last name. Ojha has remained and Singh has been dropped.

So it's quite possible for Deepak Singh Thakur to exist.

Secondly was he lynched because he was a Hindu. We don't know?

But observable behaviour over the last few years from a part of the community in Punjab and even in Delhi can convince people that this was a mob lynching.
Since you’re bringing it back up, please explain this much discrepancy between a news report vs darshan’s post.

Here is an exact quote in the news articleabout the victim:
In the recent case of lynching of an Army personnel identified as Deepak Singh in Gurdaspur, Punjab,…
And the original post share was this about the victim and incident:
darshhan wrote:
In another recent news an Army jawan Dilip Thakur was lynched in a Gurudwara in Punjab by a sikh mob just because he was a hindu. …
“Deepak Singh” became “Dilip Thakur”

“Gurdaspur, Punjab” became “a Gurudwara in Punjab”

And nothing in the article about victim’s religion or background.

Either the case of twisting facts or comprehension misread.
Just do a google search instead of indulging in hair splitting. I do not depend on a single news source. Here in the below youtube link name of gurudwara is also mentioned.


Here in another video Hindu organisations are marching to get justice for his family.


I again reiterate that Indian Army should actively monitor the case . It is a documented fact how col Purohit and Sadhvi Pragya were tortured by Parambir Singh and company of Mumbai police.
Last edited by darshhan on 07 Jul 2021 16:22, edited 1 time in total.
srai
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by srai »

^^^
Police are handling the case. Suspects are in custody. There are support groups for the victim. So what more? It’s become more of a religion-based ideological agenda than anything else at this point.
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by darshhan »

srai wrote:^^^
Police are handling the case. Suspects are in custody. There are support groups for the victim. So what more? It’s become more of a religion-based ideological agenda than anything else at this point.
Ok. So we should not discuss this case nor Army should take interest in it. Is this your stand?

And did we make it a religious issue? Or was it the khalistani supporters who populate the various Punjab Gurudwaras. And before somebody accuses me again, here is another reference link which demonstrates to what extent reverence for Bhindranwale has been mainstreamed.

Bhindranwale's portrait installed in Golden Temple museum
In a controversial move, Punjab's ruling Shiromani Akali Dal-controlled SGPC on Thursday installed a portrait of slain Khalistan militant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale in the Golden Temple museum here.
........
I am not the one who worships the portraits of HKL Bhagat, Jagdish tytler and Sajjan Kumar alongside my Gods and neither have I seen any Hindu Temple indulging in the same.
Last edited by darshhan on 07 Jul 2021 16:36, edited 1 time in total.
srai
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by srai »

^^^
People reading the above posts, they can make up their own minds. But one thing that came out today is some people’s strong religious identities and beliefs in the forum.

Time for oldies like me to retire from forums :)
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by jamwal »

Khalsa, if you have something factual against what I wrote, I am all ears. If you still claim that religious supremacism is not a serious issue in sikh community, then I can only say that either you don't know or are lying.

BTW Singh and Thakur are used interchangeably in some parts of India. Lots of Rajput people including those in my clan use Singh as middle name and another like Rathore, Jamwal as surname. Sometimes Singh is written, sometimes its not.
Last edited by jamwal on 07 Jul 2021 16:42, edited 1 time in total.
darshhan
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by darshhan »

srai wrote:^^^
People reading the above posts, they can make up their own minds. But one thing that came out today is some people’s strong religious identities and beliefs in the forum.

Time for oldies like me to retire from forums :)
Didn't our ancestors have a strong religious identity? And isn't that why we still survive as a people?
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by hnair »

darshhan wrote: Didn't our ancestors have a strong religious identity? And isn't that why we still survive as a people?
Ok darsh-han out you go. Banned permanently

Rest of folks, take it easy. Do not get triggered by trolls
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by venkat_kv »

mody wrote:If we look at all the countries that have been successful in establishing a robust MIC, there are a few common threads that emerge. The first is that the country should see the military as a means of enforcing its national will and as an integral part of its foreign policy. The military is a part of national government setup and an extension of its foreign policy. This is true in the case of all the countries that have a successful MIC.
Even in democratic countries like the US, the military is consulted and is in the loop in many foreign policy initiatives and retired military officials are part of fairly influential think tanks, which guide US policy.
Unfortunately in India, it is not so. The military has always been kept at an arm’s length by the government and forget foreign policy, the military has not always been consulted even in military matters by the government. I shall cite examples for the same below.
IFS officer’s opinions would probably count for more, than that of service chiefs as things stand in the Indian government.

As I said above, in India the military has hardly been consulted in foreign policy matters and many times have not been fully consulted even in Military matters.
In 1948, Nehru did not consult the military while declaring a ceasefire and referring the matter to the UN. After capturing Zo-ji la pass, the offensive wasn’t pursued into Baltistan, as Nehru was told by Sheikh Abdulla, that he did not have influence in that region and could not guarantee loyalty to India!!
The case of 1962 is too well known and apart from the military not being consulted, it was systematically hampered.
In 1965 also, the military was not part of the ceasefire negotiations in Tashkent otherwise, we would not have agreed to give back the Haji Pir pass, which links Poonch and Uri and offers an alternative to the Banihal pass to connect Jammu and Kashmir. Even the military itself failed in this case, as the then Army chief Gen Choudhary was reportedly consulted by LBS before declaring ceasefire, however, the good general had no idea about the inventory situation of our ammunition and possible situation of Pakistan regarding the same. For an army chief in war time, this is down right shameful.
In 1999, the government declared that India would fight only in its own controlled territory and would not cross the LoC. I doubt the military was consulted before making this announcement and if it was consulted, its objections were set aside, even though this should have been a purely military issue.
We celebrate Kargil as a victory, but I am not so sure. What exactly did we win? We did not gain anything in the conflict. At least post mid June, the self imposed moratorium on not crossing the LoC should have been dropped and we should have captured territory as the pakis were retreating. An area at least 50 Kms due west of the Saltoro ridge and 10-15 Kms west/north west of Turtuk should have been captured. This would have solved the Siachen issue for us, something which Musharaf was trying to do and also ensure that Pakistan would not be able to do a repeat of Kargil in the future. Except as the consequence of our victory, all we got was that we now have to patrol and man the Kargil heights throughout the year and as a consolation Pakistan lost face internationally and a few hundred of its uniformed cannon fodder were killed. The pakis don’t care about either and Mush recovered from the international loss of face pretty quickly.
There is no guarantee that the Pakis would not carry our a Kargil-2.0 in the very same area. We could have pressed ON and captured some part of the territory to ensure that this would not be possible in the future. Even the bleeding in Siachen in man, material and resources could have been stopped easily, if Siachen and the Saltoro ridge was taken out of paki reach. No monetary compensation was obtained from the pakis either.
Then what exactly did we WIN!!! All that happened was that we lost about 650 brave hearts with many more injured and managed to get back the land that the pakis had intruded into. I wouldn't call this victory.
Mody Saar,
agree with the first part of your prose. But there are various reasons for it as Independent India's first PM felt he could solve all of the problems with just his presence and ability to deliver a speech for most part. And it reasons that maybe the just formed republic was extremely shy in showing the iron fist (this is only an educated guess on my part, though the gloves came off suring the goa liberation or Sikkim or merger of the states) .
but coming to the underlined part, i do think the Inidan army had straightened out the border to a fair degree after kargil where some of the intrusion spots were closed as operations did continue much longer till 2003-2004 sporadically to better the situation on LOC.
Maybe the govt of the day (UPA had come in 2004) could have also been responsible - they had afterall stopped cellebrating kargil divas becuase it was BJP's war or some such reason was bandied out).
The Kargil operation should be celebrated just for the sheer bravery displayed by the Indian army while facing quite a lot of odds. Besides we had captured our own territory and then some to save Siachen and get pakis to downski and the "SSG commando" Musharuff to eat some crud.
abhishekm
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by abhishekm »

hnair wrote:
darshhan wrote: Didn't our ancestors have a strong religious identity? And isn't that why we still survive as a people?
Ok darsh-han out you go. Banned permanently

Rest of folks, take it easy. Do not get triggered by trolls

Thank you hnair. This was long overdue. For several months darsh-han has been displaying levels of bigotry that made us cringe.

For example, during the height of the Covid second wave making unsubstantiated claims that only members of one religion (you know which one) were Covid carriers in Gujarat, tarring all Christians with the same brush, and now making dog whistle statements that a majority of the Sikh community are Bhindranwale worshipping supremacists who hate Hindus (when precisely the opposite is true).

Khalsa - you don't need to preface your views with references to people from your family serving the nation. Nobody on this forum should be required to prove their patriotism.

One can be a patriot and a nationalist minus the bigotry. Ask any veteran...
Aditya_V
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

Kargil was a great victory, why did Pakis claim Mujahedeen, cause after the Siachen experience they never expected in their wildest dreams we capture those heights. IAF and Indian army plus navy operations moving towards Karachi was a great victories. Plus Pakis had to admit they were liars officially. I don't why we need state it was nothing.
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by jamwal »

Embezzlement of Funds by Army Welfare Housing Organisation (AWHO): The said Org claims to be a "No Profit No Loss" Org for the welfare of the Serving & Retd Armd Forces Personnel. The COAS is the Patron of AWHO. However, they are involved in large scale bungling of Funds.
Almost all the Projects of AWHO are in serious trouble. Worst construction quality and then the AWHO bungles up in provision of getting all the necessary clearances from Civ Auths. The so called Project Managers appointed for such projects are hand in glove with contractors. The Sispal Vihar AWHO Project in Gurgaon was completed in the yr 2009 & was handed over in 2010 but till date the final accounts have not been settled.

It is learnt that the AWHO, whose Ex-officio Chairman is the Adjutant General, is holding more than 10 Crores Rupees of the allottees since 2009 & is earning interest on such huge amount. Various letters & emails given to them has fallen on deaf ears. They have probably siphoned off the funds so, no answer. Recently, they have returned about Rs 2 Lacs to each allottee of Gajendra Vihar, Dehradun.

It happened just because few senior officers of INDARMY JAG were allottees & hence they could twist the tail of AWHO and could manage to get the accounts settled. They have not even spared the Jai Jawan Projects which are meant for JCOs/ORs from this loot & corruption. There is a requirement of exposing this notorious Org which is being governed by the senior officers of the Indian Army. It is time for all the AWHO Allottees to unite & drag these corrupt people out of their cosy offices to make them answerable to the Courts of Law. Please support us in ensuring that these people are held accountable. Request raise your issues so that a consolidated action can be planned against AWHO & it's "beneficiaries" who are involved in this open loot of our hard earned money.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Warrior_Muku ... 7977261061
mody
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by mody »

Aditya_V wrote:Kargil was a great victory, why did Pakis claim Mujahedeen, cause after the Siachen experience they never expected in their wildest dreams we capture those heights. IAF and Indian army plus navy operations moving towards Karachi was a great victories. Plus Pakis had to admit they were liars officially. I don't why we need state it was nothing.
The military operations carried out during Kargil were a victory, does that define 'Victory' in any war. The whole world already knows that Pakis are liars. A few months down the road we were hosting the Mush ourselves. The loss of face had very limited consequences for them.
What exactly did we gain from the war? In fact by claiming that the LoC was sacrosanct, we lowered our claim to GB.
We could have easily taken some area of Baltistan, post 15th June, which would have made paki positions on the western slopes of the Saltoro ridge untenable.
Besides re-taking some portions (if not all) of Baltistan would have served as a warning to the Pakis that the LoC is not sacrosanct and they any similar mischief in the future could mean further loss of territory. We know that if the Pakis are able to capture any parts of J&K, w they will be thrilled and will do anything not to return the same. Also, it would have solved the Siachen issue, which itself would have saved us thousands of crores over the last 22 years and many Indian lives.

The main point of my argument was that War is a serious business and that we lack the strategic thinking at the top political level and probably also the military level which would enable us to advance our strategic goals and also build a robust MIC
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by ParGha »

mody wrote:The military operations carried out during Kargil were a victory, does that define 'Victory' in any war. The whole world already knows that Pakis are liars. A few months down the road we were hosting the Mush ourselves. The loss of face had very limited consequences for them.
You forget that "the whole world" had termed India a liar and a danger to world peace for the 1998 nuclear tests (which indeed involved a deception operation and overt nuclear weaponization). And some "globalists" were itching to intervene and disarm both the countries.

The "victory" was:
1. Restoration of status quo antebellum.
2. Demonstration of will to Paks that salami-slicing won't work with India.
3. Demonstration of strength to rest-of-the-world that India is a responsible nuclear power.

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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by mody »

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/we ... hp&pc=U531

Gen. V.P. Malik (Retd), says the army should have been allowed to cross the LoC and capture some paki territory, once the situation had stabilized and IA started having success.
Aditya_V
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

mody wrote:https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/we ... hp&pc=U531

Gen. V.P. Malik (Retd), says the army should have been allowed to cross the LoC and capture some paki territory, once the situation had stabilized and IA started having success.
With due respect 20 years ago the he was saying not crossing the LOC was the right decision. Infiltration happened when he was the General. The state of our defenses were pathetic in 1999, and once Kosovo settled down the pressure from the West would have been on us. We had no real capability to take the attack against Pakistan in 1999.
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by jamwal »

Wasn't he on a trip to Europe when war started and stayed there for 3-4 days as army started mobilising? Can't take anything he says seriously. They couldn't even find one single officer responsible for sleeping on the job while pakis captured the posts.

If not a ground invasion, air force could have bombed a few supply depots and paki bases supporting the infiltrators. But even that didn't happen. Vajpayee's love for peace prize and incompetent advisors are responsible for death and injuries of 100s of Indian soldiers.
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Larry Walker »

Those were the most uncertain times for our country politically as well as economically and militarily. USSR has just collapsed a decade ago and with economic crisis of 1991 the armed forces preparedness was neglected for over an decade. After SuSu backstabbed Vajpayee and brought down 1st BJP government in 1996 for next 2 years we had 'humble farmer' Devegowda and 'Paki lover' Gujral. After Vajpayee came back in 1998, he had to get the nuclear tests done, which still further eroded capability of our armed forces preparedness due to sanctions and made us pariah in world community. Kargil happened almost 1 year later in 1999. And not to forget we had a India and Hindu hater in WH Bill 'Le'Uski' Clinton. Also, not to forget the reason that to get some international support we had to declare LoC as boundary to establish that we are only fighting for Pak to vacate our side of LoC. If we had captured their side of LoC then US and other powers were free to support Pakis on the same grounds on which we were asking for their support to us.
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Pratyush »

mody wrote:https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/we ... hp&pc=U531

Gen. V.P. Malik (Retd), says the army should have been allowed to cross the LoC and capture some paki territory, once the situation had stabilized and IA started having success.

The general is speaking with benefit of hindsight.

No harm in it. The important thing is that the job at hand was done.
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by nachiket »

Pratyush wrote:The important thing is that the job at hand was done.
Yes it was but the General should perhaps have been more concerned about why it needed to be done in the first place. Someone or rather several someones dropped the ball back then which led to the situation developing in the first place without us finding out. But no general staff officers have ever been held responsible for the disastrous failure which preceded Kargil.
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Paul »

I recall a news article saying the Maj Gen commanding the Kargil division was busy setting up a Zoo while infiltration was going on. Also COAS Mallik allowed Barkha Dutt to function in that area at the height of the conflict with Sat phones....All of them were let off scot free.
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

The worst part is after ceasefire we let Pakis to withdraw peacefully after setting bobby traps. Least could have been a surrender and a Public transfer of POW's. We agreed to this in 99 and today we are saying we should have to POK.
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Manish_P »

Have we taken back our POWs of the earlier wars..
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Deans »

jamwal wrote:Embezzlement of Funds by Army Welfare Housing Organisation (AWHO): The said Org claims to be a "No Profit No Loss" Org for the welfare of the Serving & Retd Armd Forces Personnel. The COAS is the Patron of AWHO. However, they are involved in large scale bungling of Funds.
Almost all the Projects of AWHO are in serious trouble. Worst construction quality and then the AWHO bungles up in provision of getting all the necessary clearances from Civ Auths. The so called Project Managers appointed for such projects are hand in glove with contractors. The Sispal Vihar AWHO Project in Gurgaon was completed in the yr 2009 & was handed over in 2010 but till date the final accounts have not been settled.

It happened just because few senior officers of INDARMY JAG were allottees & hence they could twist the tail of AWHO and could manage to get the accounts settled. They have not even spared the Jai Jawan Projects which are meant for JCOs/ORs from this loot & corruption. There is a requirement of exposing this notorious Org which is being governed by the senior officers of the Indian Army. It is time for all the AWHO Allottees to unite & drag these corrupt people out of their cosy offices to make them answerable to the Courts of Law. Please support us in ensuring that these people are held accountable. Request raise your issues so that a consolidated action can be planned against AWHO & it's "beneficiaries" who are involved in this open loot of our hard earned money.
Jamwal ji, Same is the case with the Air Force Navy housing scheme (AFNHB), of which I have direct knowledge, since we went to court to get our money back when a project was delayed indefinitely and specifications changed without consulting anyone. Time and cost overruns seem to be
the norm with no accountability.
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by chetak »

Have we forgotten to thank and acknowledge the immense help from @Israel which went out of its way and supplied us critically needed ammunition & laser-guided missiles.

funny that an IA general, who now reveals his cross border ambitions, has nothing much to say on the topic



Image via@ARanganathan72
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Re: Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Post by Manish_P »

Pratyush wrote:
Gen. V.P. Malik (Retd), says the army should have been allowed to cross the LoC and capture some paki territory, once the situation had stabilized and IA started having success.

The general is speaking with benefit of hindsight
I wouldn't think it is entirely hind sight, Pratyush ji. No senior military person would willingly like to give up territory his men have given up their lives to defend or win over. Not unless they are forced to do so by either the enemy of their own masters.

Didn't our political overlords tie up the armed forces hands even before the start of our counter offensive, by stating that our forces would not cross the LOC? IIRC they actually made public statements reiterating that even as the war was actually in progress! Which other nation in the world has done that?
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