Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

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Pratyush
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

The safety of supplies as an argument is totally incomprehensible to me.

Because unless you are in bed with the yanks with all the attendant consequences. You can never had secured quality supply line.

Russian materials will be cheaper to buy in as half baked product. But finishing it will make the end product more expensive compared to everyone else.

The sure shot way of ensuring security is to have a totally domestic supply line.
chetak
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by chetak »

Pratyush wrote:The safety of supplies as an argument is totally incomprehensible to me.

Because unless you are in bed with the yanks with all the attendant consequences. You can never had secured quality supply line.

Russian materials will be cheaper to buy in as half baked product. But finishing it will make the end product more expensive compared to everyone else.

The sure shot way of ensuring security is to have a totally domestic supply line.
you didn't have to live through the days of ameriki sanctions. No matter what the GoI says, there will always be a trust deficit and that is NATSEC related

If caught flatfooted in the middle of a war or even leading up to one, because the amerikis decided to turn all moral on you, and sanctioned you, then you have little leeway unless you are already diversified and derisked with assured access to alternate sources.

some punk of an ameriki el presidente can up and impose sanctions on India as the mood takes him/her or the congress or whatever

A reliable domestic supply chain with a technically credible homebrew MIC is decades down the line.

We are headed in that general direction anyway.
Pratyush
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Chetak, you have missed the phrase attendent consequences for the earlier post.

Rest no disagreement with you.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by SinghS »

You don't go to war depending upon others. If you do so, you end up being slave. This is what mighty Mughals, Marathas, Sikhs did when in place of creating technology, manufacturing, self-sufficiency and doctrine (obviously due to education, capability, resources and time); they depended upon French, British & Portuguese to provide Technology, weapons, ammunition and leadership. The end result is for everyone to see.

We should buy American, Russian, Israeli stuff and implement that into our doctrine/forces and build partnership, with motive to keep the status quo and balance temporarily. This allows us the liberty to choose time and place of war we would enter. These purchases enhance capability and act as deterrence.

Finally one day or the other, each and every nation must go to war. So, if we intend to go to war at time and place of our choosing and win it, we must frantically indigenize.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Rakesh wrote:The Project 17 Shivalik Class is being succeeded by the Project 17A Nilgiri Class. Why they went for the (improved) Talwar Class over additional Shivalik Class is a mystery to me. Perhaps John can shed some more light on this.
While I understand the reason for purchasing incomplete Grigorivich class FFG the decision to build it locally is a head scratcher but I believe following factors played a role:

Cost: P-17s cost around 600 million about a decade ago, building more of these now will cost definitely around 800+ mill. Two additional ones being built at GSL are slated @ 600 mill. Granted the final cost as with all things may end up much higher.

Construction speed: Yantar has been able to crank out 11356 Frigates quite rapidly I don't believe they use modular construction methods but rather the simplicity and familiarity of design contributes to its faster speed. Even Russian corvette such as 20385 take nearly twice as long to build.

Politics: over reliance of LM2500 is risky if situation changes in politics a potential delay (when Obama admin took over there decision to review all exports delayed Shivalik a couple months) could hamper all our vessel construction.

MII: there is a need to spin the orginal purchase of two Grigorivich class FFG as good for india what better way than to build two more locally "Make in India".

These vessels are inferior to Shivalik class but I suspect given the opportunity and the blessing to purchase them from powers to be, navy decided to go with it rather than risk losing out all together lobbying for something better.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Thank you John for summarizing. Makes a lot of sense.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by RishiChatterjee »

Now would those be technically similar to Amphibious Transport Dock like INS Jalashwa, or different?

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheWolfpackI ... 977956867/ ---> Indian Navy issues RFI for procurement of 4 Landing Platform Docks (LPDs) with capacity to embark 900 combat troops. Wants it also to be armed with 16 × SSM, 32 × VL-SRSAM, 4 x AK-630 as well as DEWS (in the future).

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 88647?s=20 ---> Will also have atleast 12 Special Ops helicopters and two Naval UAS on-board. Will be capable of Dedicated Special ops mission support.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 88330?s=20 ---> Plus two heavy lift helos too.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 61570?s=20 ---> Indian Navy published RFI (Request For Information) to procure 4 Landing Platform Docks (LPDs) from Indian Shipyards.

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nash
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by nash »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 61570?s=20 ---> Indian Navy published RFI (Request For Information) to procure 4 Landing Platform Docks (LPDs) from Indian Shipyards.
https://indiannavy.nic.in/sites/default ... download=1

This is the RFI issued yesterday.

It says length <=200 Meter, I think only Mistral and Dokdo fit into this parameter. It will be hard to put that much of armament and man in those class of LPDs. I am not sure things are adding up here.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by kit »

RishiChatterjee wrote:Now would those be technically similar to Amphibious Transport Dock like INS Jalashwa, or different?

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheWolfpackI ... 977956867/ ---> Indian Navy issues RFI for procurement of 4 Landing Platform Docks (LPDs) with capacity to embark 900 combat troops. Wants it also to be armed with 16 × SSM, 32 × VL-SRSAM, 4 x AK-630 as well as DEWS (in the future).

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 88647?s=20 ---> Will also have atleast 12 Special Ops helicopters and two Naval UAS on-board. Will be capable of Dedicated Special ops mission support.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 88330?s=20 ---> Plus two heavy lift helos too.
Sounds like a well-armed helicopter carrier rather than a LPD ! whats the displacement ?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by sankum »

40 T heavy lift helicopter which will be CH53K?
Total required number will be minimum 8 nos.
12 special ops helos Naval IMRH version? Total requirement 48 nos.
While in 123 nos NMRH the commando version requirement was projected as 33 nos as per vayu aerospace article.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/143 ... 72899?s=20 ---> The Indian Navy's come out with a fresh RFI for Landing Platform Docks. The specifications, which clearly mention the need for a 'through deck' design suggests that they really want a LHD (US hull class.) & I think the Mistral Class (<200m) fits the bill.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/143 ... 78400?s=20 ---> If the Navy is punctilious about its RFI requirement w.r.t the length of the ship being <200 metres, than the Juan Carlos Class Ship will sadly not make it since it measures 230 metres overall. Flight deck itself is around 202 metres.
RishiChatterjee
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by RishiChatterjee »

nash wrote: It says length <=200 Meter, I think only Mistral and Dokdo fit into this parameter. It will be hard to put that much of armament and man in those class of LPDs.
Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/143 ... 78400?s=20 ---> If the Navy is punctilious about its RFI requirement w.r.t the length of the ship being <200 metres, than the Juan Carlos Class Ship will sadly not make it since it measures 230 metres overall. Flight deck itself is around 202 metres.
Those are LHDs not LPDs... Neither have any SSM armament, let alone 16 of them like a Destroyer/frigate.
The likes of Makassar Class or Foudre class are below 200m only... So is INS Jalashwa (Austin Class LPD by US nomenclature) that bear resemblance with them.

US Navy too apparently is arming their SanAntonio Class LPD-17 with Long-Range Missiles, will be 2nd (desis will have to come up with new design it seems, nothing existing)
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -missiles/
Last edited by RishiChatterjee on 26 Aug 2021 11:22, edited 1 time in total.
John
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Throwing a 16 cell brahmos module is quite doable in 20k Ton vessel like the Mistral. And the SR SAM shouldn't take up same amount of footprint as Barak-1 so should be quite easily to add it in without much deck penetration.

In fact the armament suite for LPD adds further support to the theory that I think we ditched Barak-8 for Vikrant and going for same 32xSRSAM armament.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by nash »

What it seems like Indian Navy has came up with their own definition of LPDs. They issue RFI of LPDs, but want them to carry various helicopters and operate them like LHDs, same goes for 900 infantry men, as well as carry 16 SSM(IMO LRLACM), 32 VLSRSAAM(in development with DRDO) and CIWS like LPDs or Frigates. Armament load-out can beat Shivalik class frigate.

Mistral or Dokdo looks close to fit this requirement though it may require some design changes to accommodate SSM and PDMS.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

They have not specified the parking space for vehicles. To be deployed by the various landing crafts.

Though the landing crafts payload discription suggests that vehicles are to be embarked on the vessels.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/143 ... 03424?s=20 ---> New Delhi has to move to acquire Mine Counter-measure Vessels (MCMVs) this year itself. They were needed as of day before yesterday. The lack of modern MCMVs is the one big chink in what is otherwise a balanced and powerful Indian Navy.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by NRao »

https://twitter.com/detresfa_/status/14 ... 9950386177 --> Spotted earlier today, an #IndianNavy P-8I operating over the Philippine Sea | Friday, August 27, 2021.

{Suspect on its way to Guam}

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/143 ... 25829?s=20 ---> Big one. Indian MoD signs ₹1,349.95 crore deal with Mahindra Defence Systems for 14 Integrated Anti-Submarine Warfare Defence Suites (IADS).

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Talk by the CNS: Transformation of the Indian Navy to be a Key Maritime Force in the Indo-Pacific

Pratyush
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

The Talwar class ships should be due for MLU in the next 3-4 years. Has the navy started its planning as to what the MLU will contain. We have a total of 6 ships that have to under go MLU by 2035.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Vips »

Order some Vodka to be served by Natasha!!

Russia has per news reports today has offered to 'modernize' the six in service Talwar ships during the MLU.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by YashG »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/143 ... 25829?s=20 ---> Big one. Indian MoD signs ₹1,349.95 crore deal with Mahindra Defence Systems for 14 Integrated Anti-Submarine Warfare Defence Suites (IADS).
Should be a confident booster for the private defence players in india.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Prem Kumar »

What does the Mahindra system entail? Passive/towed sonar + a mareech like decoy?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Mareech is the complete package part of system uses ATDS and those pics are from 2015. So it’s not new system by any means.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/143 ... 03424?s=20 ---> New Delhi has to move to acquire Mine Counter-measure Vessels (MCMVs) this year itself. They were needed as of day before yesterday. The lack of modern MCMVs is the one big chink in what is otherwise a balanced and powerful Indian Navy.
I wonder if they can lease some from existing inventories. Weren't each of the services given some operational purchase funds for such emergency purchases? Can't believe the absolute sluggish pace on this front.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by nam »

Just learnt that L&T & GSL are building a similar type of 2100-2300 tonne OPV for the coast guard.

The L&T one cost 180 crores, while GSL cost around 350 crores! Not to mention L&T deliveries are on time, while GSL... :roll:

We are paying almost twice as much just to keep a bunch employed. And people are screaming for more defence budget.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

nam wrote:Just learnt that L&T & GSL are building a similar type of 2100-2300 tonne OPV for the coast guard.
You referring to Vikram vs Samrath correct? I believe GSL actually was paid 400 crores for 2nd batch not 300. But they are couple hundred tons bigger than Vikram but still doesn’t make up for increased price.

If you think that’s bad Navy deal with Pipavav was 800 crores each for its 1500 Ton OPV which was finally scrapped after a decade of delays so on the contrary going private might not always work out.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by ManuJ »

John wrote:If you think that’s bad Navy deal with Pipavav was 800 crores each for its 1500 Ton OPV which was finally scrapped after a decade of delays so on the contrary going private might not always work out.
Did the IN or MOD or Indian taxpayers lose money on the Pipavav deal?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by nam »

John wrote: If you think that’s bad Navy deal with Pipavav was 800 crores each for its 1500 Ton OPV which was finally scrapped after a decade of delays so on the contrary going private might not always work out.
Ofcourse, it is never perfect. However for a private player, there are consequences.

We will never see a "failure" on DPSU shipyard, because MoD will spent whatever it takes to complete the ships, even if it takes 10 years for an OPV. There is no penalty clause or holding deposit.

The DPSU can even respond to a MoD RFP to built a DDG for 10 Rs within a week. :roll:
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by jaysimha »

Standing Committee on Defence visits Eastern Naval Command and NSTL
By AIR News
NATIONAL NEWS
August 28, 2021

https://newsonair.com/2021/08/28/standi ... -and-nstl/




Updated: 2 days ago
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Last edited by jaysimha on 30 Aug 2021 22:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by YashG »

nam wrote:Just learnt that L&T & GSL are building a similar type of 2100-2300 tonne OPV for the coast guard.

The L&T one cost 180 crores, while GSL cost around 350 crores! Not to mention L&T deliveries are on time, while GSL... :roll:

We are paying almost twice as much just to keep a bunch employed. And people are screaming for more defence budget.
L&T is our desi LM. :D
Its a matter of time (lot of time) Indian MIC will start chipping in substantially. Its a matter of time some Indian company will start making military grade, good UAVs. If Tatas, Adanis, Mahindras etc. start getting govt orders more consistently- they will also start funding or acquiring defence startups. This could lead to more early stage funding of defence startups - thats the only way since I dont expect much orders to come to indian def startups from govt. Even boeing has a VC fund targeted on small defence startups active in India.

Remains to be seen how soon will this virtuous cycle take off in India.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

nam wrote:We will never see a "failure" on DPSU shipyard, because MoD will spent whatever it takes to complete the ships, even if it takes 10 years for an OPV. There is no penalty clause or holding deposit.
Yea DPSU have share of delays but RENL was building a OPV (not a complex surface combatant with ever changing req) which was 5 years behind schedule. Thru bank guarantees navy was able to get the money back but 10 yrs was lost in this and new OPV to replace it will cost much more due to inflation.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Barath »

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... e-vessels/

Finally some movement on MCMV. Even if it is RFI.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Barath »

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... -business/

Fincantieri is in talks about buying Leonardo's naval gun business (I assume Oto Melara)

https://theprint.in/defence/navy-to-scr ... ow/706730/

India scrapped plans to buy 127 mm Oto melara guns due to its parent company being blacklisted in Agusta Westland scam, went with the US and then seems to have decided against the US guns due to cost. While there was an allusion to a possible "Make in India", I suspect that if Fincantieri actually bought Oto Melara, India might consider buying 127mm naval guns from them
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 77313?s=20 ---> The Indian Navy has signed a Contract with Defence PSU Bharat Limited (BEL) for supply of the first indigenous, comprehensive Naval Anti Drone System (NADS) with both hard kill and soft kill capabilities. The contract was signed by Indian Navy and BEL today at New Delhi.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/DefProdnIndia/statu ... 59392?s=20 ---> The Indian Navy procures the country’s first indigenously developed Robotic Lifebuoys (Unmanned Surface Vehicles) through a start-up Saif Automation Services LLP under @India_iDEX. The Indian Navy has signed the contract for more than Rs.13 Cr with the startup.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by ashthor »

What is the name of the above mentioned vehicle on which the anti drone is setup?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Maria »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 77313?s=20 ---> The Indian Navy has signed a Contract with Defence PSU Bharat Limited (BEL) for supply of the first indigenous, comprehensive Naval Anti Drone System (NADS) with both hard kill and soft kill capabilities. The contract was signed by Indian Navy and BEL today at New Delhi.
The vehicle mount from Kalyani looks TFTA, can this vehicle traverse on the mountains as well (I know the question is OT).
Last edited by Rakesh on 01 Sep 2021 18:16, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please do not requote images when posting. Thank You.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by YashG »

It would be interesting to understand how effective and economical will such anti-drone systems be?

The reason drones are cheap is because of the scale of production achieved due to civilian use. Take for example laptops vs mobiles. Mobiles purely on the basis of scale production are now becoming even cheaper options than laptop for same processing power - even when mobiles are far more miniaturised products.

A radar on the other hand has no such scales of production to be cheap. Only thing that is being manufactured at scale for civilian systems are high quality cameras & image processing technology. This suggests that any cost effective, highly proliferating system will perhaps use visual detection to acquire a target.
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