Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

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arvin
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by arvin »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 77313?s=20 ---> The Indian Navy has signed a Contract with Defence PSU Bharat Limited (BEL) for supply of the first indigenous, comprehensive Naval Anti Drone System (NADS) with both hard kill and soft kill capabilities. The contract was signed by Indian Navy and BEL today at New Delhi.
Good to see DRDO laser based anti drone system being supplied to the services. Last month IAF too had shown interest in the system. Hope some private sector company is also given TOT so that the system can evolve outside of PSU.
The Navy can take a leaf out of what has been tried on USS Ponce which has an 30 KW laser for frying out Small UAVs and boats.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by jaysimha »

──REPOST FROM PIB LINK──

Ministry of Defence
Boost to ‘Atmanirbhar Bharat’ in defence

Indian Navy signs contract with BEL for supply of Naval Anti drone system
Posted On: 31 AUG 2021 7:00PM by PIB Delhi
Key Highlights:

● First indigenously developedanti-drone system, NADSto be inducted by Indian Navy
●It can instantly detect, jam micro drones and use a laser-based kill mechanism to terminate targets
● BEL to sign similar contacts with Army and Air Force
https://pib.gov.in/PressReleaseIframePa ... ID=1750830
Image
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Vips
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Vips »

India’s 1st N-missile tracking ship Dhruv to be launched on Sept 10.

National Security Advisor Ajit Doval is expected to commission India’s first satellite and ballistic missile tracking ship Dhruv from Visakhapatnam on September 10. Built by Hindustan Shipyard in collaboration with Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and National Technical Research Organisation (NTRO), INS Dhruv has the capability to also map ocean beds for research and detection of enemy submarines.

It is understood that the Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Karambir Singh and NTRO Chairman Anil Dasmana will be present at the launch ceremony along with senior DRDO and Navy officials. The nuclear missile tracking ship will be manned by Indian Navy personnel with the Strategic Forces Command (SFC). Such ships are operated by France, the US, the UK, Russia, and China only.

The 10,000-tonne ship, which is part of a classified project, will be at the heart of India’s future anti-ballistic missile capability as it will act as an early warning system for enemy missiles headed towards Indian cities and military establishments. The ship will be a vital key to maritime domain awareness in the Indo-Pacific and is being commissioned at the time when the era of underwater armed and surveillance drones has dawned.

With both China and Pakistan having nuclear ballistic missile capability and land disputes with India, the INS Dhruv will act as a major force multiplier to India’s maritime security architecture as well add to the capability to understand the true missile capability of the adversary when they test their ballistic missiles.

INS Dhruv is equipped with DRDO developed state of the art active scanned array radar or AESA with the ability to scan various spectrums to monitor spy satellites watching over India as well as monitor missile tests in the entire region. This will add to the Indian Navy’s capability to monitor the region from the Gulf of Aden to the ingress routes to the South China Sea via Malacca, Sunda, Lombok, Ombai and Wetar straits.

INS Dhruv by mapping the Indian Ocean bed will also help the Indian Navy plan better military operations in all three dimensions—sub-surface, surface and aerial. Given that China has moved to sea-based military doctrine with huge investments in long-range aircraft carriers, warships and submarines, the latest Indian ship will help India’s electronic intelligence-gathering spy agency, the NTRO, to project threat to India in real-time.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by sajaym »

https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2021-09-04
Acquiring a second SSN will enable the navy to operate two independent carrier battle groups, centred around the INS Vikramaditya and INS Vikrant, each with one SSN. (INS Vikrant is currently in sea trials and will join the Navy later next year.) The two SSNs can also perform escort duties for India’s fleet of four Arihant-class SSBNs, all of which will be in service by the end of this decade.
So the approximate requirement seems to be for only 2 SSNs. Based on this logic, at any one time the Chakras will each escort one carrier and one arihant class. Meanwhile, the other carrier and other arihant class will have to wait till the Chakras come back from one chakkar. Then crew change, and repeat.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by ldev »

The 2012-2022 Chakra lease which was returned 10 months early reportedly cost $ 2 billion. The current lease as reported by this article is $ 3 billion. So a 2nd SSN lease could be another $ 3 billion. $ 6 billion is a heck of a lot of money for a platform which is not even yours to keep in the end. The Akula total cost including reburbishment is reportedly $ 1.5 billion per unit. According to Wiki, even the latest Virginia class SSN for the USN costs $ 2.8 billion. And the Akula is comparable to the older Los Angeles class. From 2028 onwards Russia will move entirely to the new Yasen class SSN. Also there are restrictions placed on India's use of these submarines....exactly what those restrictions are is shrouded in secrecy.....but also reportedly those restrictions have reduced with every new lease. One restrictions certainly in place is not to arm the Akula with any offensive cruise missile capability e.g. Russian Akula's after refurbishment can fire the Kaliber cruise missile with a range >1000 km. Akula's in Indian service are restricted to torpedoes???
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Keep in mind that money is pure $$ for Putin and oligarchs it goes directly to funding his mansions, we will try to justify it by saying it includes some secret tech we will get as part of the deal (in all reality it is not).
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by ldev »

John wrote:Keep in mind that money is pure $$ for Putin and oligarchs it goes directly to funding his mansions, we will try to justify it by saying it includes some secret tech we will get as part of the deal (in all reality it is not).
So what is India getting in return? It may be understandable if all this money gets the Russians on India's side, so that they openly side with India against China. Or they throw in the 2500 km range Kalibr cruise missile as part of the package. But they are sitting on the fence saying both India and China are "strategic partners" :-?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Reading the comments here would have one believe that the Navy buys $6 billion worth useless SSNs (or any Russki maal for that matter) only to line Uncle Putin's paakit. Fascinating.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Cain-ji, billions of $ for Russia is that many billions of $ less to invest in 114 F-15EX, F-18 or F-21. Thus the takleef :lol:

The same Indian Navy that acquired P-8I with Harpoon, MH-60R and other American kit is foolish to invest billions in Russia. Could India’s submariners really be this clueless? Also why is the Navy investing money in submarines? We were led to believe that Chinese CATOBAR carriers are unsinkable and invincible.

Basically spending money on Russian maal is bad, but investing in Amreeki maal will save the day :wink:

Restrictions on Akula SSN :roll: :rotfl:

I wonder whether these Akula leases will qualify for CAATSA sanctions!
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by ldev »

An article on the Soviet/Russian-Indian nuclear submarine lease history dated March, 2018
Russia matters to our submarine plans
On the contrary, India acquiesced in a Russian naval group accompanying the Akula-class nuclear submarine loaned to India in 2012 and the same will be true when India next borrows a boat, negotiations for which are currently underway. Indian naval strategists appreciate the strategic utility of Russian cooperation, even when these boats are largely meant for training and come with restrictions on their use for offensive purposes.
Moreover, it is impossible for the Navy to do so without prior consultations with Moscow as the latter’s naval personnel are always on-board its leased nuclear submarines
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by hnair »

Rakesh, Thankfully the other country’s arms oligarchs don’t have mansions in Hamptons or Kensington and that adds on to India’s national power somehow

We have a huge load of American and French chappies servicing Air Force platforms as part of contract. Can make the same claim as the akula one being peddled above by ldev.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

ldev wrote:
John wrote:Keep in mind that money is pure $$ for Putin and oligarchs it goes directly to funding his mansions, we will try to justify it by saying it includes some secret tech we will get as part of the deal (in all reality it is not).
So what is India getting in return? It may be understandable if all this money gets the Russians on India's side, so that they openly side with India against China. Or they throw in the 2500 km range Kalibr cruise missile as part of the package. But they are sitting on the fence saying both India and China are "strategic partners" :-?
I can easily tell what we are loosing as a result of this stupidity. Every rupee we spend overseas. We lose the ability to spend it on domestic MIC forever.

Which in turn delays the goal of self reliance by anywhere between 4 to 6 years.

Totally unacceptable.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by VenkataS »

Pratyush wrote:
ldev wrote: So what is India getting in return? It may be understandable if all this money gets the Russians on India's side, so that they openly side with India against China. Or they throw in the 2500 km range Kalibr cruise missile as part of the package. But they are sitting on the fence saying both India and China are "strategic partners" :-?
I can easily tell what we are loosing as a result of this stupidity. Every rupee we spend overseas. We lose the ability to spend it on domestic MIC forever.

Which in turn delays the goal of self reliance by anywhere between 4 to 6 years.

Totally unacceptable.
We should cut our losses and divert those dollars to domestic MIC. We might have substandard/delayed platforms for the next 10 years. But all of that money that we are sending overseas to every other country would be spent in India and will develop our MIC. Maybe after 10 years of sustained investment and Atma-Nirbartha our MIC would be in a much better place. We have to cut the chord at some point and not depend on any other country. If not now, when?

That does not necessarily mean no foreign components in domestic programs but it does mean every critical component and every major system should be designed and built in house. Private Indian defense companies should be involved in every major program right from inception.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Manish_P »

Pratyush wrote:...Every rupee we spend overseas. We lose the ability to spend it on domestic MIC forever.
..
+1 Just today there was a detailed investigative thread (with images of the companies connections) on Twitter on how just 5 years ago, the Chinese bought majority stake (gradually in parts) in an European UAV company (an Italian-German JV) via an entire shell companies system spread across 3-4 countries and each ending after at least 3 layers of companies deep in China MIC.

They did this for absorbing the Tech for each and every single piece of the component in the UAV line (right down to the nuts and bolts), and in 5 years managed to replicate the entire line of the original company's UAVs completely in China.

The Italian MoD claims to have just found about it and started an investigation but the Chinese have left only about 4 to 5 nationals in Italy and the Italian courts have not allowed for their arrest as technically no industrial and export laws have been broken by the company, as it exists now.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Yeap simply throwing money at leases with restrictions is gonna get us nowhere doesn’t matter if it is american, french or Russian. If you are not getting blue print or tech transfer what good is it? Rather save that $$ for indigenous SSN program.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

hnair wrote:Rakesh, Thankfully the other country’s arms oligarchs don’t have mansions in Hamptons or Kensington and that adds on to India’s national power somehow.
I like that one :lol:
hnair wrote:We have a huge load of American and French chappies servicing Air Force platforms as part of contract. Can make the same claim as the akula one being peddled above by ldev.
I remember him saying that French sales are guided by money/funding to keep their domestic military industrial complex going and now Russia is "sitting" on the fence with regards to China and India as strategic partners :lol:

But America does nothing of the sort. Her military industrial complex is only for benevolent and peaceful purposes. Also used for nation building, freedom, democracy and other similar values. A good example below..

After Imran Khan's visit, US approves military sales worth $125 million for support, maintenance of Pakistan's F-16 jets
https://www.firstpost.com/world/after-i ... 65281.html
27 July 2019

This much takleef over a possible (not even confirmed!) lease of two Akulas. My oh my! :lol:

When it comes to any country's submarine fleet, much is shrouded in secrecy. Then speculations are created, because some masala has to be written. As a retired Navy Vice Admiral of the Indian Navy stated, "The navies of the world do not talk about their submarines." No one - apart from authorized personnel - should know what is coming in a "possible" lease of one or more Akulas. I will leave it at that.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by chetak »

Rakesh wrote:Cain-ji, billions of $ for Russia is that many billions of $ less to invest in 114 F-15EX, F-18 or F-21. Thus the takleef :lol:

The same Indian Navy that acquired P-8I with Harpoon, MH-60R and other American kit is foolish to invest billions in Russia. Could India’s submariners really be this clueless? Also why is the Navy investing money in submarines? We were led to believe that Chinese CATOBAR carriers are unsinkable and invincible.

Basically spending money on Russian maal is bad, but investing in Amreeki maal will save the day :wink:

Restrictions on Akula SSN :roll: :rotfl:

I wonder whether these Akula leases will qualify for CAATSA sanctions!

after joe bye-den and afghanistan, CAATSA sanctions should be the very least of our worries. It is dead as a dodo in content, if not intent.

CAATSA means putting all our eggs in the ameriki basket which is what the ameriki deep state wants

the pakis did earlier, but now they have a new cheeni basket; a different fire but almost the same begging bowl and this basket owner insists on advance payment

we would be very foolish to put India's supreme national interests in jeopardy, especially if we choose to ignore the burgeoning trust deficit
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by nam »

Let me see if people notice it here..
nam wrote:Mashallah... look at the size of that MF radar 8)

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Karan M »

Yeah, DRDO's 2 panel AESA, looks like.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

It's not INS Dhruv. Which ship is this?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by YashG »

Looks like some minesweeper from the terminal end ? is it?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Pratyush wrote:It's not INS Dhruv. Which ship is this?
INS Anvesh
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

If INS Anvesh is a floating test range. Then where is the missile launch slot on the ship?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Vips »

INS Anvesh is getting ready for trials post launching.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by nam »

It is the TDV/Anvesh with the massive radar and 4 missile launchers. We are going to see our own SM-2/6 launches.

The best part is LR-MFR. Looking at the size of the person standing next to it, it is a massive radar. An ABM radar. Since the algo have been created for the radar to work on the sea, it would naturally be going on to our next IN vessels.

I was speculating this type of radar will also go onboard Ins Vikrant, given the radar panel is still not installed. IN would have noticed the big a** radar right next to the carrier. Let's see if Vikrant get LR-MFR or MF-Star.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Pratyush wrote:If INS Anvesh is a floating test range. Then where is the missile launch slot on the ship?
There appears to be some containers that look like launchers in the rear.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Vicky »

Pratyush wrote:If INS Anvesh is a floating test range. Then where is the missile launch slot on the ship?
There are four massive erector launchers for AD-1/AD-2 missiles (Presumed) hidden flush with the aft deck ahead of the A-frame. People could see them in Google Earth images when the boat was under construction.

These launchers were showcased at DefExpo by a company called Electropneumatics & Hydraulics India Pvt Ltd.
Launcher pic: https://defenceforumindia.com/attachmen ... jpg.24245/
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 18596?s=20 ---> Mazagon Dockyard will carry out the model test of the hulls of the Next Gen Destroyer (NGD), Next Gen Corvette (NGC) etc. to enable finalisation of propulsion system and fine tune their design.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Maria »

So Project-18 is happening and imminent, the tonnage will be quite exciting to track with the weapon load and radar. This is indeed awesome news as the Navy moves fast on these things and I am looking forward to an Indian cruiser on the high seas capable of raiding afar.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by nam »

Based on the launcher design, it looks like AD1/2 will be cold launched. The ship seems to be ready for trails. We might see the first test for AD1/2 happening early next year.

Personally this has all the ingredients for XRSAM. We are probably taking the S400/500 route. Cannot fathom why we would design a separate XRSAM & ABM, when US has gone with SM2/6 & Russia with S500 covering all the aircraft & BMD needs.

Project 18 might see our BMD being available on the ships. Given the Chinese threat of ASBM, it is imperative that our ships have ABM capability like the US.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:This much takleef over a possible (not even confirmed!) lease of two Akulas. My oh my! :lol:

When it comes to any country's submarine fleet, much is shrouded in secrecy. Then speculations are created, because some masala has to be written. As a retired Navy Vice Admiral of the Indian Navy stated, "The navies of the world do not talk about their submarines." No one - apart from authorized personnel - should know what is coming in a "possible" lease of one or more Akulas. I will leave it at that.
What is remarkable is the ploy to use a suffering domestic mic as a ruse to avoid Russki purchases. Sounds good to me, but please show similar sympathy for local mic next time Romeo's or p8s are purchased.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by nash »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 18596?s=20 ---> Mazagon Dockyard will carry out the model test of the hulls of the Next Gen Destroyer (NGD), Next Gen Corvette (NGC) etc. to enable finalisation of propulsion system and fine tune their design.
https://mazagondock.in/images/pdf/inves ... 062021.pdf

This is from June 29, 2021 Investor call update:
Another big-ticket item in the long-term horizon, is about another 50,000 crores, which
is the construction of five in number new generation destroyers, and as you are aware, the
destroyers for the Indian Navy has only been built till now by Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders
Limited.
As per this, number is 5 and estimated cost is 50000 Crore (~$1.5 billion/ship).

May be after launching of INS Porbandar, some more details will come out.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by nam »

Hope someday someone at MoD will think for a while, that we are building our destroyers & frigates at the most expensive city in the country.

It is equivalent to USN building it's destroyers in New York. :roll:

Then we complain about "lack of defence budget"
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 33731?s=20 ---->

CEO Severnoye Design Bureau (SDB) Andrey Diachkov: “Proposal to the Indian Navy on upgrades to the 1st batch of Talwar Class frigates.”

SDB has submitted a comprehensive proposal on upgrades to the Talwar-class frigates that have been in service with the IN since 2003-2004.

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 83940?s=20 --->

CEO SDB Andrey Diachkov: “Our company has elaborated the proposal to make a complex upgradation that ensures maximum efficiency of all weapon systems of the ships. We are ready to implement the modernisation according to the requirements of the Indian Navy".

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Cain Marko wrote: What is remarkable is the ploy to use a suffering domestic mic as a ruse to avoid Russki purchases. Sounds good to me, but please show similar sympathy for local mic next time Romeo's or p8s are purchased.
It is about perception. On one hand, the 114 MRFA deal is not moving...while India is *possibly* negotiating with Russia about not one, but now two Akulas. Then there is the AK-203 deal, the 21 MiG-29s, the 12 Su-30MKIs, more Krivak frigates, etc. That frustration - buying Russi maal instead of Amreeki maal - is what we are witnessing in this thread. Head scratching moment for these folks. If and when 114 American fighters come, then the alliance will be set in stone for eternity :lol:

The capabilities of these Akulas are left to speculation. The IN will customize these boats to their liking and use them as they see fit. Submarines - as the Indian Navy themselves state - are primarily offensive platforms and they will be used in such a manner if a conflict ever arose. I will pass on stories about restrictions and usage, because the only parties that know the truth will not open their mouth. Apart from stealth, a submarine's other key advantage lies in staying under the radar, metaphorically speaking. No submariner will ever unzip his fly. Setting aside court martial and jail time, his own life and the lives of their crew mates will be on the line. So let some folks live with the belief that Akulas have restrictions. Let India's submarines and her submariners "Run Silent, Run Deep" as the title of that Hollywood movie goes.

When non-Amreeki maal is purchased, India is accused of pandering to arms lobbies. Then the usual stories crop up - democracy is under threat in India because of the BJP, Indian policy makers are close minded, India appears to be a bad bet, India is the weakest link in the Quad, India is not taking the China threat seriously, etc. But when MH-60 Romeos and P-8Is are purchased, all these arguments are conveniently forgotten. The hypocrisy is truly amazing.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Vips »

nam wrote:Hope someday someone at MoD will think for a while, that we are building our destroyers & frigates at the most expensive city in the country.

It is equivalent to USN building it's destroyers in New York. :roll:

Then we complain about "lack of defence budget"
How does it matter where the Navy Ships are built? The ships that are being built in Mumbai are already approved on a certain budget and that budget is certainly not dependent on the location of the Dockyard. Cost overruns if any are not dependent on location but are due to scope creep, Babudom and time delay in production.

Mazgaon Dock workers are not paid higher wages for more expensive lodging/boarding in Mumbai. All the workers stay in suburbs and travel to the docks for work. Their pay is pretty much comparable to the other government dock workers in other locations. Price of the steel the basic raw material is more or less the same in Mumbai or in Kochi or Goa.

BTW if location cost was any measure then USN would not build their submarines in Groton, CT which is way more expensive a location then Newport News, VA.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Rakesh wrote:The capabilities of these Akulas are left to speculation. The IN will customize these boats to their liking and use them as they see fit.
Rakesh we cannot customize or modify them, they come with restrictions and that is problem if Russia had sold these submarine and gave us capability to maintain then that is great. But this is just plain and simple lease and Nerpa didn’t even make it to 10 years we had return it due to reactor problems (will Russia refund us the lost $$ probably not).

This is just seems like waste of $$ as we are already leasing a submarine and other important projects including P-75, MCMV, IAC II, LPD are delayed due to $$
nash wrote:As per this, number is 5 and estimated cost is 50000 Crore (~$1.5 billion/ship).

May be after launching of INS Porbandar, some more details will come out.
Certainly means the next DDG will be evolution of P-15 not P-18 which many are hoping you are not going to build a super 10k ton new design at that cost. IMO it will be Stretched P-17a or P-15 modified with GE turbines.
Last edited by John on 08 Sep 2021 06:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by yensoy »

nam wrote:Hope someday someone at MoD will think for a while, that we are building our destroyers & frigates at the most expensive city in the country.
It is equivalent to USN building it's destroyers in New York. :roll:
Then we complain about "lack of defence budget"
Absolutely!! These kinds of huge industries should be moved out to greenfield/brownfield areas, scaled up to 5x or 10x in capacity, supported with living facilities, schools etc for families and be the hub of future development much like cities like Bhilai and Kota were, starting from the 1950s. All this, and more, can be funded by selling off or even leasing the huge land holdings in Mumbai.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

John wrote:Rakesh we cannot customize or modify them, they come with restrictions and that is problem if Russia had sold these submarine and gave us capability to maintain then that is great. But this is just plain and simple lease and Nerpa didn’t even make it to 10 years we had return it due to reactor problems (will Russia refund us the lost $$ probably not).

This is just seems like waste of $$ as we are already leasing a submarine and other important projects including P-75, MCMV, IAC II, LPD are delayed due to $$.
I will hold out on the restrictions theory, because we do not have the actual agreement to refer to.

If these were really only meant for training or even worse, just leased for pure show to molly coddle some MoD Babus and senior Admirals, are we to assume this news article is fake? It certainly must be.

India Deployed Nuclear Missile-Armed Submarine During Standoff With Pak
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/p ... 2019-06-23
23 June 2019
Nuclear submarine INS Chakra had also been deployed in an aggressive posture along the Pakistani waters and instructed to keep looking for the missing Pakistani submarine.

The Indian Navy's latest induction, Scorpene-class submarine INS Kalvari, was also deployed in the hunt while their posture kept threatening Pakistan against doing any misadventure in the Indian waters.
Why is the Indian Navy sending a Russian origin nuclear powered boat - meant only for training and nothing else - out in the Arabian Sea? Is the Akula even capable of doing the most basic of submarine tasks, like actually go under the water? It is Russian after all. Big Risk!

In the restrictions agreement - which none of us have seen, but yet is being narrated as FACT - is it permitted for the Indian Navy to do this? Is the Indian Navy not violating "supposed" restriction agreement? And let us assume that the Indian Navy flipped the bird to the Russians - during the Balakot standoff - should the Indian Navy really take the risk of involving said submarine in a conflict zone? Does the propeller on the Akula even turn on its own power? It is Russian after all...what is the guarantee that any thing on board will work?

In the absence of no country - apart from Russia - willing to lease us a nuclear submarine, while our own series of SSNs comes on the scene...what other choice did the Indian Navy really have? So these $$ that we are investing - assuming it is only for training - into Russian Akulas, if that helps our sailors and officers become familiar with operating a nuclear boat, then it is money well invested IMVHO. Forget the Amreekis - who love to lecture India about strategic partnerships - even my philanthropic friends from La France will not lease us a nuclear powered boat.

We are all proud of the Arihant Class of submarines (as we all should be), while we conveniently forget the help that the Russians provided in her development. I highly doubt the Indian Navy would be operating a SSBN fleet of her own, if the Russians (or some other country) did not not help in the development.

Arihant: How Russia helped deliver India’s baby boomer
https://www.rbth.com/blogs/stranger_tha ... mer_533849
26 Oct 2015
“India then sought and got much more substantial Russian help than had been envisaged earlier. The construction of the submarine’s hull began in 1998, and a basically Russian-designed 83 megawatt pressurised-water reactor was fitted in the hull nine years later.”

Ashok Parthasarthi, a former science and technology adviser to the late Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, sums up the extent of Russian assistance: “India's first indigenous nuclear submarine, INS Arihant...would have just been impossible to realise without Russia’s massive all-round consultancy, technology transfer, technical services and training, technical 'know-how' and 'show-how,' design of the submarine as a whole, and above all numerous operational 'tips' based on 50 years of experience in designing, building and operating nuclear submarines.”

According to Bidwai, “Scores of Russian engineers were sent to India to aid the DAE and DRDO....It was the Russians who supplied the vital designs, precision equipment based on their VM-5 reactor, and the technology of miniaturising the reactor.”

And if there were any doubts about the extent of Russian involvement, they were cast away on July 26, 2009 when 143 Russian engineers, designers and consultants – all participants in the project – attended the boomer’s launch ceremony at Visakhapatnam on the east coast.
I don't believe the Russians are saints. They are just like anyone else. They want to make a sale. They want to have influence. They want to make ridiculous sums of money selling weapons. They want the exact same thing that Amreeka (and the west) does.

But who is giving what India wants? That should be the foundational theme here? In the absence of our own SSNs, which country is going to allow you to lease their nuclear powered boats for $3 billion each? Assuming that dollar figure is even true. Please enlighten me.

On a related note, this entire discussion started with this article below on a supposed lease of not one, but two Akulas.
sajaym wrote:https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2021-09-04
Acquiring a second SSN will enable the navy to operate two independent carrier battle groups, centred around the INS Vikramaditya and INS Vikrant, each with one SSN. (INS Vikrant is currently in sea trials and will join the Navy later next year.) The two SSNs can also perform escort duties for India’s fleet of four Arihant-class SSBNs, all of which will be in service by the end of this decade.
Now this article claims that this pair of Akulas will perform escort duties for the two independent carrier battle groups - Vikramaditya and Vikrant.

Now since these Akulas are ONLY to be used for training - because that is what a "supposed" restrictive agreement states - why is the Indian Navy using these boats for escort duties? In a possible conflict in the near future, if an Akula boat - escorting a carrier battle group - detects an enemy vessel, is the Akula allowed to engage or does the Akula turn in the opposite direction? Would engaging the enemy would be a violation of said restrictive agreement? If not, will the Akula fire lotus and marigold flowers from her torpedo tubes to deter the enemy? Perhaps the restrictive agreement does not permit offensive weapons of any kind on board.

Why is end user restrictive agreements with the Amreekis okay, but the same not okay when the Russians supposedly do it? Like can we mount BrahMos-A on to P-8I? By the way, where is this restrictive Russian agreement? Can you point me to it?
Pratyush
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

I have a problem with spending money overseas in general. Not particularly against one or the other nations.

Having said so, the experience of vikramaditya refit along with the nearly 5 year delay with the chakra2. I don't have a very high opinion of the Russian shipbuilding Industry. The money spent on those boats would have been better spent on Indian industry.

I look at Arihant class and realise that this design was completed in at least 2004, if I take 5 years to build her, so that she could enter water in 2009. Yet in 2021, we are not able to design and build our own SSN.

In fact the wheel didn't have to be reinvented. The reactor could have been reused, the torpedo tubes, sonar, combat management system, communication suits, everything could have been re-used. If required only the hull had to be re-designed. For a new class of SSN. But we have not done that. I was listening to some you tube defence channel yesterday evening and it said that an indigenous design of SSN will be ready only by 2024. It should not have taken 20 years to design a SSN. Especially when nearly all the hard work has been done.

BTW, I am also against the project 75I in its current form. Because for the life of me. I cannot figure out the fact that a nation that can build a nuke boat. Putting one in the water in 2009. A nation that has the design of type 209 and scorpean class submarines. Building them since late 80s. Cannot design a 3000 to 4500 ton conventional submarine.

I hope that people can understand why so much heartache with Russians weapons deal at least in my case.

Now, let's come to Americans.

When we can make a Boeing 737 class aircraft fly, I will object to a new p8 purchase. When we design a 20 ton cargo lifter. I will object to c 130 purchase. When IMRH flies. I will object to a new Romeo purchase.

Same way I support HTT40 over the import of a basic trainer today.

I also want LCH to be in service by the hundreds.
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