Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

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Cain Marko
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Cain Marko »

Pratyush wrote:In fact the wheel didn't have to be reinvented. The reactor could have been reused, the torpedo tubes, sonar, combat management system, communication suits, everything could have been re-used. If required only the hull had to be re-designed. For a new class of SSN. But we have not done that. I was listening to some you tube defence channel yesterday evening and it said that an indigenous design of SSN will be ready only by 2024. It should not have taken 20 years to design a SSN. Especially when nearly all the hard work has been done.


When we can make a Boeing 737 class aircraft fly, I will object to a new p8 purchase.
.
There are some big assumptions you are making about SSNs sir, esp wrt the reactor. The speed and power needed for an attack sub are very different from what the arihant delivers. The akula generates more than 2x the power and is not much bigger than the arihant. So no, we are nowhere close to all attack sub just yet. And the navy needs one in a couple of years. What other choice so we have other than the Russians? At least in case of the p8s, there are alternatives, both euro and Russian, and possible even Desi/israeli.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

That is correct. The reactor on the Akula is a 190 MW one. The reactor on the Arihant Class is 83 MW onlee.

You cannot use the reactor of the Arihant on the Indian SSN program. You have to have a new design and the reactor has to be a lot more powerful than the one on the Arihant. Naval Group of France has reportedly offered to help with a LEU (Low Enriched Uranium) design from their Suffren Class (Barracuda SSN) submarine. Not sure what has come of it. BTW, the reactor on the Suffren Class is 150 MW.

This is what the first skipper of INS Chakra-II (the ex-Nerpa) had to say about the boat. You need a powerful reactor - like on the Akula - to do what he is saying.

The Captain of India’s first nuclear attack submarine is a Kazhakian
https://kazhaks90.com/kazhak-chronicles ... kazhakian/

“I commanded a conventional submarine before this and we were restricted by battery power. But now, I have no restrictions. I can chase a vessel anywhere, overtake her, play games with her, and the nuclear plant never runs out of power.”
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Ok so the reactor could not be used?

Assuming that the reactor of the Arihant was ready by the time the design work was initiated for the Arihant. Then it stands to reason that it was ready by 2000s. The need for a larger reactor was known sometime in the second half of 00s. Id doesn't take 15 years to design this reactor.

Even if it's a clean sheet design.

Second, the Indian submarine is a single hull program. The akula is a double hull design. With a lot of extra weight that a single hull submarine doesn't have to carry. So it doesn't have to be as powerful as 180+MW.

The reactor which produces 83 MW of thermal power is quite sufficient to operate a pure SSN with a displacement of 6000 tons or lighter.

The last 3 classes of USN submarine all were powered by propulsion plant that were producing under 40000 shp. Even though the reactor were generating 165 MW of thermal output.

A reactor with this output should not have taken 20 years to design.

What I am ultimately trying to say is that get 3 or 6 SSN with Arihant reactor. The follow up class can have a more powerful reactor. When it becomes available. The experience of operational SSN will not be lost and will have to be rebuilt. As will be the case with a leased 2&3 Akula that would arrive by 2025 or 2025.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by nachiket »

The process of funding and developing a larger follow on reactor to the Arihant's should have been started right when the first one was finally ready. Doesn't take a genius to figure out what the next needs are going to be beyond the Arihant and its sister subs. The R&D may even be ongoing. One can hope. It doesn't have to be as powerful as the ones used in the Akulas, Yasen or Virginia class subs. If we can build a 6000t boomer, making a slightly smaller SSN with a more streamlined shape and missing the missile tubes should be possible too. But if we start on it now it will take a decade or more to realize the new reactor depending on available funding and human resources, to say nothing of the sub design itself.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Vicky »

nachiket wrote:The process of funding and developing a larger follow on reactor to the Arihant's should have been started right when the first one was finally ready. Doesn't take a genius to figure out what the next needs are going to be beyond the Arihant and its sister subs. The R&D may even be ongoing. One can hope. It doesn't have to be as powerful as the ones used in the Akulas, Yasen or Virginia class subs. If we can build a 6000t boomer, making a slightly smaller SSN with a more streamlined shape and missing the missile tubes should be possible too. But if we start on it now it will take a decade or more to realize the new reactor depending on available funding and human resources, to say nothing of the sub design itself.
AFAIK as per opensource info, There are atleast two current design projects at BARC - one is B1 and other is B2. B1 might be the original ATV & B2 it's successor.

There are references to B1/B2 in BARC Founders day speech 2018 and BARC newsletter Sep-Oct 2011 both of which are available on barc.gov.in . They are linked on wikipedia.

Based on one openly available document on dae.gov.in, there are atleast three compact LWR based on the original design (B1?)

So infer.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/GODOFPARADOXES/stat ... 05349?s=20 ---> INS Anvesh.

As part of DRDO open sea test range it will be used to test not only interceptors of BMD program but will also be used to test other weapon systems as well as conduct downrange (splash zone) telemetry/tracking tasks for RVs/MaRVs/MIRVs/HGVs etc in support of INS Dhruv.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/DesiEscobar07/statu ... 14725?s=20 ---> NSA Ajit Doval will launch India's first satellite and ballistic missile tracking ship 'INS DHRUV' in Visakhapatnam today. The 10,000-tonne ship has the capability to track long-range nuclear ballistic missiles and developed by NTRO, DRDO, Hindustan shipyard.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 60550?s=20 ---> INS Anvesh FTR to be used for the testing of BMD Phase-II, future naval XR-SAM (if approved), NG-torpedoes, naval hypersonic missiles, etc.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by chetak »

INS Dhruv

Image

Image
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/143 ... 56033?s=20 ---> One INS Dhruv is not enough. If the platform succeeds, which it probably will, I see it being joined by more units in this decade itself.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/143 ... 57411?s=20 ---> BTW, thanks to the non-delivery and cancellation of contracts awarded earlier, the Indian Navy is looking to procure 3 cadet training ships and 7 next generation offshore patrol vessels.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/GODOFPARADOXES/stat ... 05349?s=20 ---> INS Anvesh.

As part of DRDO open sea test range it will be used to test not only interceptors of BMD program but will also be used to test other weapon systems as well as conduct downrange (splash zone) telemetry/tracking tasks for RVs/MaRVs/MIRVs/HGVs etc in support of INS
Are there other countries doing similar such tests
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

^^^

I am more interested in the shore based radar installation of the units placed on INS Anvesh.

Along with a project 15 C at 8000 tons standard displacement with 64 to 80 cell VLS for low end work and a larger 12000 to 15000 tons units fitted with C2 facilities for the fleet. With cell 124 to 144 VLS.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by brar_w »

kit wrote:
Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/GODOFPARADOXES/stat ... 05349?s=20 ---> INS Anvesh.

As part of DRDO open sea test range it will be used to test not only interceptors of BMD program but will also be used to test other weapon systems as well as conduct downrange (splash zone) telemetry/tracking tasks for RVs/MaRVs/MIRVs/HGVs etc in support of INS
Are there other countries doing similar such tests
Yes having large tracking radars, sensors, and TM conducted from sea based platforms is used elsewhere. Unless you have huge land mass, it is a requisite for a large and expanding BMDS program.

https://jalopnik.com/these-are-the-litt ... 1594677657
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Pratyush wrote:^^^

I am more interested in the shore based radar installation of the units placed on INS Anvesh.

Along with a project 15 C at 8000 tons standard displacement with 64 to 80 cell VLS for low end work and a larger 12000 to 15000 tons units fitted with C2 facilities for the fleet. With cell 124 to 144 VLS.
Highly doubt we will see 10k ton DDG let alone something that big, you are taking something that will cost well around 2 bill each (3 bill given our typical cost overruns especially with new design and propulsion is very likely) and lucky to field even handful not enough to cover India. Not to mention I don’t believe MDL current Docks can even handle anything of that size.

Such large DDG fielded in small #s providing BMD works for South Korea but not for us. Best such a platform can be made compact and fielded in followup of P-17s and P-15s. Israel has been testing Barak-8 ER against ballistic missiles but we don’t know to what extent MF STAR capabilities are. Interesting to note Azerbaijan Barak-8 supposedly did knock out a Isklander.

Given the current cost figures of 50000 crores for 5 next gen DDG only slightly more than P-15b they seem to be evolution of P-15s (P-15 modified for GE turbines?).
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by brar_w »

You're not really going to be able to get the Barak-8 to a point where it can provide umbrella BMD coverage over a SAG, CBG or a larger geographic area. For that you need significantly larger, and more capable interceptor with the ability to do higher terminal altitude or mid-course intercepts. Defeating Iskander type BM's isn't really a big concern for large destroyers or the area they need to control. The primary BMD threats there are/or going to be the 2,000 - 4,000 km ranged (Medium to Intermediate ranged) threat systems.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

^ Isn’t Iskander top speed more in line with low end MRBM like Shaheen and given it’s quasi ballistic flight profile I assume it would be harder to intercept too that said nothing has confirmed the kill for sure. Given that if true shouldn’t scaled up Barak-8 (ER or even XR-SAM) give us the capability to handle faster DF-21 type missiles given the large booster?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by brar_w »

John wrote:^ Isn’t Iskander top speed more in line with low end MRBM like Shaheen and given it’s quasi ballistic flight profile I assume it would be harder to intercept too that said nothing has confirmed the kill for sure. Given that if true shouldn’t scaled up Barak-8 (ER or even XR-SAM) give us the capability to handle faster DF-21 type missiles given the large booster?
No it is still a relatively simpler target compared to something like a terminal intercept of a DF-21 (which is also maneuverable). You ideally want an envelope that will allow you at least two shots. And you want at least a 50-100 km keep out distance which requires a substantially more capable interceptor. Many modified non TBM interceptors can intercept quasi ballistic missiles (US modified PAC-2's to do that before the dedicated PAC-2 variant arrived). Barak-8 is a fairly small interceptor (by BMD standards and for something that is being cued by a S band radar). For comparison, the SM-6 1A that the US Navy fields just about barely covers the Sea Based Terminal threat against "some" (not all) Medium Ranged targets. Even the ones it does cover likely doesn't allow a proper look-shoot-look doctrine (not enough keep out altitude). And in SBT the SM-6 will do well to cover a radius of about 30-40 miles at best (this is why Sm-3 is very relevant). They are developing a 21" variant (1B) to cover a larger envelope particularly against the 3,000 km class or beyond systems. But even that is not likely to give anything other than a keep out distance of 50 miles. Longer keep out distances with the constraints of a VLS would mean H2K and a higher altitude interceptor (for example THAAD may have something like 150 km or so as keep out distance against something like a DF-21 but THAAD using liquid DACS is not compliant with USN requirements for VLS).

Once you expand the area of control beyond the immediate SAG (like supporting an amphib force with BMD or proving backup protection to land), you quickly begin to run out of terminal defense options (anything beyond 100-200 km keep out radius gets too expensive and challenging to do with a terminal interceptor) which forces you towards a mid course interceptor like the ones the BMD program is developing or has fielded.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Is this for the IN?

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 76963?s=20 ---> Elbit has been awarded contracts worth $56 million to supply Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) capabilities to a Navy in Asia-Pacific. Elbit Systems will provide the Seagull USVs (Unmanned Surface Vessels) to perform ASW missions & Towed Reelable Active Passive Sonar (TRAPS) systems.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 80288?s=20 ---> $100 million pays India for 2 engines on its new Talwar Class frigates. Goa Shipyard Ltd recently signed a contract with the Ukrainian Zorya-Mashproekt for supply of two sets of M7N Main Gas Turbine Aggregate for the new Talwar Class frigates. First to be delivered in December 2022 and the second in July 2023.

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 27081?s=20 ---> The new engine has an upgraded microprocessor control system with a capacity of 58,000 HP and the ability to develop a speed of 30 knots. GSL is currently building two multi-purpose frigates of the 11356 Talwar project, which are to be commissioned by the Indian Navy in 2026-2027.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 95138?s=20 ---> French Navy Chief holds talks with India's Chief of Naval Staff in US.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

John, let me know your views on this. Too many tweets to post, just click on the link below for the twitter thread...

https://twitter.com/Parthu_Potluri/stat ... 46112?s=20 ---> Some thoughts of mine with regard to the Indian Navy's NGD (Next-Generation Destroyer) program, unofficially referred to as Project-18. I'll be reproducing some points from previous posts of mine on @defence_in to give an outline for what I think NGD needs to be like.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Barath »

The positioning of RR MT30 on the grounds that Ukrainianian GT are unreliable, COGAG/IEP is the only choice (eg what about CODAG?) and RR MT30 is somehow uniquely positioned for IEP (it's the gas turbine, not the rest of the IEP infra) seems a little like seeking to fit the answer to the question.

Especially when there are several Indian warships already propelled by LM2500 ( eg. Shivalik has CODAG with MAN Diesel+ LM2500, Vikrant has LM2500 etc), HAL has a tie up for that, too and LM2500+ has a 35-40 MW Shp or so option, similar to RR MT30. I'm not saying that LM2500 is the only or inevitable choice, but that this was not even considered or discussed makes me wary.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh, who is the Parthu Potluri?

Because I know that the MDL has just initiated the process of studying the hull forms and stability.

So unless he a part of the design team. His post is just a series of wishes for what the ship should be.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by nits »

chetak wrote:INS Dhruv

Image
This ships will like AWACS in sea; AWACS in sky have its own protection group - is something similar planned for such ships or is it self sufficient for her defense and have anti ship / anti air protection
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

INS Dhruv, may be a range tracking ship. But she has no place anywhere near the frontline. Or for that matter near the combat zone. Therefore, the requirement of escorts is also not applicable.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by nits »

But sir it will be a prime target for both neighbors and they may come for it rather then Dhruv being on front line
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by ks_sachin »

nits wrote:But sir it will be a prime target for both neighbors and they may come for it rather then Dhruv being on front line
If she is not on the front line and we are placed in a position we have to defend her then we have other problems on our hand...
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Well said Sachin.

Nits, against a competent enemy, such ships cannot be hidden. Because the moment her sensors are turned on she becomes visible to every space based ESM sensor in the hemisphere.

Even if she is operating 1000s of km from the front line she will still be able to exert influence on the battlefield. By acting as a sensor platform against any ballistic missile launched. In this case any ship born BMD intercepter can act as a boost phase kill vehicle.


So not to worry.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by nits »

Understand - that helps... thanks for your input
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Rakesh wrote:John, let me know your views on this. Too many tweets to post, just click on the link below for the twitter thread...
With next gen DDG everyone wants another 055 but I am expecting to be improvement on P-15b or enlarged version of P-17a. Only thing we now know the allocated budget is 50k crores for 5 which is modest increase from P-17a and P-15b you are not going to build 10k ton+ destroyer at those price tags. Even a P-15b with modest improvements such as propulsion will end up costing around that.

Propulsion I agree with him good chance we use MT30 but I am not sure it will be with IEP or simpler setup with CODLOG.

LRMFR is likely candidate for radar system but lot of questions on weapon suite I would like to see XRSAM + SRSAM bring utilized but given lack of standardized vls system will likely employ them in two different launchers.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by RishiChatterjee »

John wrote:
Rakesh wrote:John, let me know your views on this. Too many tweets to post, just click on the link below for the twitter thread...
With next gen DDG everyone wants another 055 but I am expecting to be improvement on P-15b or enlarged version of P-17a. Only thing we now know the allocated budget is 50k crores for 5 which is modest increase from P-17a and P-15b you are not going to build 10k ton+ destroyer at those price tags.
More money will probably come in with time.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

If the objective is to have a rail gun in the ship then it makes sense to go with IEP.

As it makes MLU easier.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Vicky »

MDL tenders are out for procurement of long lead items like DMR-249B steel for multiple midget submarines. :shock: 8)
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

RishiChatterjee wrote:More money will probably come in with time.
Typically additional costs aren't allocated on top of orginal budget unless there is cost overruns or design changes (you don't want another mess like P-28). Biggest challenge will be cost of a new design given how tight the budget is unless navy budget rises drastically I just cannot see this being a brand new 10k+ ton destroyer class, only way to cut some of costs and challenges is working with another country. Outside of US, China, Korea and Japan no one else has homegrown design of that size (Russian next gen ddg program is in limbo).
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Vicky »

Vicky wrote:MDL tenders are out for procurement of long lead items like DMR-249B steel for multiple midget submarines. :shock: 8)
Based on the quantities ordered, atleast 3 submarines if each is of 500 tonnes dsp like the L&T-SOV400 design. If it's the L&T design, surprised that MDL is building it.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by VickyAvinash »

https://www.bhel.com/bhel-committed-aat ... line-ships

BHEL Committed to AatmaNirbhar Bharat – Awarded order for Upgraded Main Gun of Frontline Ships
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

I assume Triput is the name for 2 Talwar class being manufactured by GSL?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Barath »

Yes, the news confirms that

Naval News comments:
The future Triput-class frigates are the upgraded 1135.6 frigates (Talwar-class) for the Indian Navy currently under construction at Goa Shipyard.
Also, BHEL Haridwar which is supplying these guns, is a licensed manufacturer of Oto Melara 76 mm per wiki. So I would assume that these are the same

I would also assume that since BHEL Haridwar does not have a license or agreement in place for the Oto Melara 127 mm guns, that this was what was meant by the earlier article talking about going with the existing 76 mm gun now and 127 mm later while scrapping the Mk45 plan for being too costly.
The Navy will use the existing 76 mm guns while a larger plan for the 127 mm guns bears fruit. As and when that materialises, the 76 mm guns will be replaced,” said a source
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by YashG »

brar_w wrote:
No it is still a relatively simpler target compared to something like a terminal intercept of a DF-21 (which is also maneuverable). You ideally want an envelope that will allow you at least two shots. And you want at least a 50-100 km keep out distance which requires a substantially more capable interceptor. Many modified non TBM interceptors can intercept quasi ballistic missiles (US modified PAC-2's to do that before the dedicated PAC-2 variant arrived). Barak-8 is a fairly small interceptor (by BMD standards and for something that is being cued by a S band radar). For comparison, the SM-6 1A that the US Navy fields just about barely covers the Sea Based Terminal threat against "some" (not all) Medium Ranged targets. Even the ones it does cover likely doesn't allow a proper look-shoot-look doctrine (not enough keep out altitude).....
.....Once you expand the area of control beyond the immediate SAG (like supporting an amphib force with BMD or proving backup protection to land), you quickly begin to run out of terminal defense options (anything beyond 100-200 km keep out radius gets too expensive and challenging to do with a terminal interceptor) which forces you towards a mid course interceptor like the ones the BMD program is developing or has fielded.
Word for word, your replies are the most knowledge dense posts ! I always give them two reads.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Jay »

YashG wrote:
Word for word, your replies are the most knowledge dense posts ! I always give them two reads.
Amen!

I have thought for a while that Brar ji is either a AI program with all encompassing knowledge or an CIA savant :rotfl:
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