Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/DarkCruiser12/statu ... tbC8khWAxw ---> Indian Navy's Pocket Destroyer! Image of INS Pralaya, a Veer class missile boat - released today by the Navy. Appears to be significantly upgraded with an Israeli EL/M 2238 STAR multi-purpose air and surface search radar in addition to a BEL Lynx U1 fire control radar.

Image
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

With the whole Ukr-Rus saga our Tushil class Frigates are starting to look like a write off Tushil and Tamala might end getting stuck in Yantar, as Ukrainians are likely to stop supply of any Zorya components. The ones being built by GSL are a question mark as well if Russia does invade.

I have been critical of the whole deal from start I still don’t understand why it was signed when we have Shivalik class that GSL could have continued building.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by ramana »

What exactly is the issue? Please elaborate.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

ramana wrote:What exactly is the issue? Please elaborate.
The vessels being completed in Russia require Gas turbines from Ukraine I believe they haven’t been delivered to Yantar yet. Ukraine might pull out of deal or any invasion will most likely put those deliveries on hold..
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

The gas turbines for those ships can be of Russian design which is already being used in ships being constructed for Russian navy.

Having said all that, i share other aspects of the criticism of the deal.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Pratyush wrote:The gas turbines for those ships can be of Russian design which is already being used in ships being constructed for Russian navy.

Having said all that, i share other aspects of the criticism of the deal.
That’s why Russia halted construction because Zorya halted delivery after 2014 conflict. There is plan for NPO Saturn to reverse engineer them but I don’t know where they are at with that. Too risky to try that with existing design IMO.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

From 2018

https://mil.today/2018/Industry12/

From 2021

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -turbines/

This states that NPO Saturn has delivered the first units of the Russian gas turbines.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Kersi D »

John wrote:
Pratyush wrote:The gas turbines for those ships can be of Russian design which is already being used in ships being constructed for Russian navy.

Having said all that, i share other aspects of the criticism of the deal.
That’s why Russia halted construction because Zorya halted delivery after 2014 conflict. There is plan for NPO Saturn to reverse engineer them but I don’t know where they are at with that. Too risky to try that with existing design IMO.
So we are the scapegoats in Russian attempts to reverse engineer the Zorya turbines ?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Kersi D »

John wrote:^ All those are photos of Mysore not Delhi. Delhi’s launcher was covered for a while.
Possible
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Kersi D »

John wrote:^ All those are photos of Mysore not Delhi. Delhi’s launcher was covered for a while.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _Delhi.jpg

It might have been fitted since 2014 but no clear image of it. You can vaguely make out the Barak-1 launcher in this pic.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IndianDefense/ ... ame=iossmf
To the best of my knowledge both INS Delhi and INS Mysore have Barak-1, but not INS Mumbai
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Kersi D »

John wrote:^ All those are photos of Mysore not Delhi. Delhi’s launcher was covered for a while.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _Delhi.jpg

It might have been fitted since 2014 but no clear image of it. You can vaguely make out the Barak-1 launcher in this pic.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IndianDefense/ ... ame=iossmf
Superb pic. Thanks

Both D60 and D61 have Barak-1. D62 does not have Barak-1
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Pratyush wrote:From 2018

https://mil.today/2018/Industry12/

From 2021

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -turbines/

This states that NPO Saturn has delivered the first units of the Russian gas turbines.
Yes Russians have claimed NPO Saturn's M90FR along with M70 could replace Zorya's DT-59 + DS-71 for Grigorivich. But given the construction was never resumed till they were sold to us. It seemed either like it was bluff or requires too much work and $$ to modify those vessels.

Even the Gorshkov class Isakov that is supposed to feature M90FR has yet to be launched and has been in construction since 2014.

I do hope Zorya delivered the Turbines and all its components for Tushil to Russia, otherwise they are looking like a write off. We may be able to complete GSL vessels if conflict doesn't worsen.

Kersi D wrote:
John wrote:^ All those are photos of Mysore not Delhi. Delhi’s launcher was covered for a while.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _Delhi.jpg

It might have been fitted since 2014 but no clear image of it. You can vaguely make out the Barak-1 launcher in this pic.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IndianDefense/ ... ame=iossmf
Superb pic. Thanks

Both D60 and D61 have Barak-1. D62 does not have Barak-1
Thanks post refit Delhi doesn't seem to have Barak-1 which doesn't make sense as these only few years old, it could be a optical illusion and we need better pics to confirm it.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by putnanja »

Initially, wasn't it proposed that the hulls will be towed to India, and Ukraine will supply the engines to India and it will be installed in an Indian shipyard? I recall reading something along these line long time back
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

putnanja wrote:Initially, wasn't it proposed that the hulls will be towed to India, and Ukraine will supply the engines to India and it will be installed in an Indian shipyard? I recall reading something along these line long time back
Yes it was supposed to be the 3 Russian vessels completed by us then it was changed to 2 Russian vessels completed by Yantar + 2 being built by GSL.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Vips »

Two high speed interceptor boats inducted into Indian Navy in West Bengal.

The Indian Navy inducted two Fast Interceptor Craft (FICs) into its fleet in Kolkata on Wednesday to beef up its coastal security.

The high-speed vessels – T323 and T324 – capable of operating in shallow waters were acquired for Sagar Prahari Bal, a unit of the Navy created post 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks as part of the coastal security construct.

“The vessels will enable enhanced riverine patrol on the Hooghly river as well as gradually extend patrolling capability seawards,” said a defense official.

A Defense press release issued on Wednesday said, the high-speed vessels can operate in the Hooghly as well as in the Bay of Bengal at sand heads and can reach speed of up to 45 knots. The FICs positioned by the Indian Navy will augment the Coastal Security capability of the Indian Navy in the State of West Bengal .

The vessels were inducted at a formal ceremony at the Man-O-War Jetty in Kolkata in the presence of Bengal's naval officer in charge Cmde Rituraj Sahu.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 4qY-rkxTjg ---> Indian Navy destroyer INS Kolkata which is on a friendly visit to Qatar, is not allowing Pakistani nationals to tour the ship, claims Pak visitor.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 4qY-rkxTjg ---> Indian Navy destroyer INS Kolkata which is on a friendly visit to Qatar, is not allowing Pakistani nationals to tour the ship, claims Pak visitor.
How can ebil phassist yindu's dare to stop, TFTA. Pakistanis from visiting that ship.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Vips »

Indian Navy’s second P-8I aircraft squadron INAS 316 to be commissioned on Tuesday; Know more.

On Tuesday (March 29, 2022) Indian Navy’s second P-8I aircraft squadron will be commissioned at INS Hansa, Goa.

According to the Indian Navy the “Indian Naval Air Squadron 316 will be commissioned in the presence of Chief of Indian Navy Admiral R Hari Kumar.”

INAS 316
This squadron has been christened ‘The Condors’, which is one of the largest flying birds in the world. And the insignia depicts a Condor searching over the blue expanse of the sea.

This squadron will be operating the P-81 multi-role long range maritime reconnaissance and anti-submarine warfare (LRMR ASW) aircraft, from the US based Boeing Company. This aircraft is powered by twin jet engines and has the capacity to be equipped with air-to-ship missiles and torpedoes.

The second batch of four additional aircraft which have been acquired to help the navy to detect, destroy, and deter any threat to the country in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR) will be operating from here.

Now, the Indian Navy has two squadrons of P-8I – the first batch of 8 aircraft were acquired in 2013 which has completed more than 30,000 flight hours and are now stationed at INS Rajali, Arakkonam.

The aircraft which are joining the INAS 316 are part of the four additional aircraft contract which the Ministry of Defence had awarded in 2016.

This aircraft, as has already been reported in Financial Express Online, is operated by all the QUAD countries, the member countries of AUKUS operating P-8 variant.

Importance of this aircraft for the Indian Navy
Indian Navy’s Maritime Reconnaissance Capabilities got a big boost when this aircraft joined the fleet. India was the first international customer for the P-8 and is currently operating the largest fleet outside the US. This aircraft has added more power to the capabilities of the Indian Navy to deal with the emerging threats in the IOR and with growing Chinese presence.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by KSingh »

IN ALH MK.3MR bases and deployments https://twitter.com/ksingh_1469/status/ ... -De7A9v3sg
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by viveks »

If we are able to fire a brahmos from a p-8i, it will be awesome
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by KSingh »

Now up to 6 bases for the ALH MK.3MR fleet (total 16 units)

https://twitter.com/ksingh_1469/status/ ... YcwFKiaCrA

Indicates a pretty effective support system and impressive maintainability as almost all bases are just 2 birds so support footprint will be similarly tiny

Chetak just completed *60* years in IAF service, what is IN waiting for to replace their Chetaks? Their love with /obsession to get Panther is beyond absurd at this point.


Stated requirements for NUH are 111 birds, what’s the justification for not giving that to ALH at this point?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by bala »

Another case of Best being the enemy of Good or Good Enough. This attitude of salivating for Videshi Maal is an absurd obsession which we have to shake of promptly. Now that Europe is enmeshed in uncertainty why bother with Panther. GOI needs to immediately up the budgets for all R&D activity in DRDO, I say 10x over the next 5yrs. Hire all the young blood and put them on meaningful projects that can vault India into big leagues. Money is no problem. Our babus need to be driven extra hard. HAL Helo project has been a success and continues to produce more. They have systematically cleared all obstacles and tis surprising that the Army is more accommodative of HAL Helos than other forces. So, many mental blocks in people's heads.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

KSingh wrote:Stated requirements for NUH are 111 birds, what’s the justification for not giving that to ALH at this point?
1) It is not phoren
2) The blades don't fold automatically
3) It does not have that new (phoren) helicopter smell
4) Phoren = 100% Availability and local is the opposite.
5) ALH Mk3 cannot fly in the moon's atmosphere
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh none of the above. One chopper is few hundred kg heavier than the other. The RFQ has been written for French chopper.

That will ultimately be used by Navy to disqualify the Dhruv.
Last edited by Pratyush on 29 Mar 2022 21:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by KSingh »

Rakesh wrote:
KSingh wrote:Stated requirements for NUH are 111 birds, what’s the justification for not giving that to ALH at this point?
1) It is not phoren
2) The blades don't fold automatically
3) It does not have that new (phoren) helicopter smell
4) Phoren = 100% Availability and local is the opposite.
5) ALH Mk3 cannot fly in the moon's atmosphere
Just to be clear- the navy hasn’t asked for automatic bade folding on the NUH, none of the foreign NUH bidders have automatic blade folding- not even the IN’s obsession (Panther)
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by KSingh »

Pratyush wrote:Rakesh none of the above. One chopper is few hundred kg heavier than the other. The RFQ has been written for French chopper.
Still yet to understand why there is even an AUW limitation, a ship that can support a 10,000KG Sea King cannot support a 5,500KG ALH? The ICG have no issues with the MK.3MR’s weight and even their largest vessels are the smallest of the equivalent IN vessel



The only explanation is the specs are tailored to the Panther and to exclude the ALH

I believe that HAL is working on an ALH-NUH variant that strips some features (lightens it up) from the MK.3MR to make it compliant with the NUH AUW SQR although again I fail to understand the point.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

viveks wrote:If we are able to fire a brahmos from a p-8i, it will be awesome
Unlikely even Brahmos-M can fired from P-8i it is simply too heavy, however a variant of NGARM adapted to AshW would be ideal.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... SWydg5h2Vg ---> Report: Relief for Indian Navy as Ukraine's Zorya-Mashproekt factory (which produces engines for several Indian warships) has been found to be functional and capable of resuming work in the future when the ground situation improves.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... SWydg5h2Vg ---> Report: Relief for Indian Navy as Ukraine's Zorya-Mashproekt factory (which produces engines for several Indian warships) has been found to be functional and capable of resuming work in the future when the ground situation improves.
I would not trust this news. Russia was explicitly trying to hit all such facilities earlier in the war.

It will be extremely unlikely that Russians left this plant alone.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Tanaji »

More to the point, will Ukraine supply india with the parts given that we haven’t accepted Baniansky as our messiah?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Tanaji wrote:More to the point, will Ukraine supply india with the parts given that we haven’t accepted Baniansky as our messiah?
They will honor it for $$ but no chance they will ship it to Russia either we need to tow the vessel and do it ourselves or try to re-engineer it with Russian alternative (unlikely).

But most likely scenario I am afraid is I know turbines where shipped for Tushil but we don’t know if all the parts got shipped if not more than likely Tushil and Tamala get stuck in limbo for a decade and end up being a write off. More than likely we halt two being built locally as well.

I still like to know the rational for choosing this over Shivalik for Goa shipyard to start another surface combatant line.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:I would not trust this news. Russia was explicitly trying to hit all such facilities earlier in the war.

It will be extremely unlikely that Russians left this plant alone.
FWIW....source of the tweet.

Relief for Indian Navy as key Ukrainian factory survives Russian bombing
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 628647.cms
03 April 2022
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Vips »

According to a Defense Channel AV, DRDO's AIP has successfully demonstrated endurance of 14 days and a plug-in is being developed to equip Scorpenes with the AIP.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

Vips wrote:According to a Defense Channel AV, DRDO's AIP has successfully demonstrated endurance of 14 days and a plug-in is being developed to equip Scorpenes with the AIP.
Too late for scorpene I don’t see any of them going into refit before 2030. May be if we order more Scorpene..
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by fanne »

why not the kilos? Upgrade their electronics with what we got for scorpene and keep their weapon system Russian. Put a AIP plug, they could be handful
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by sohamn »

fanne wrote:why not the kilos? Upgrade their electronics with what we got for scorpene and keep their weapon system Russian. Put a AIP plug, they could be handful

That's smart, why not do that to all the Ambassador taxi's with Tesla's electronics. That could solve the gas crisis in the planet. :rotfl:

Just because they are submarines doesn't mean all the electronics are plug and play. Kilo's are not only a generation old but also a completely different design.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by chetak »

John wrote:
viveks wrote:If we are able to fire a brahmos from a p-8i, it will be awesome
Unlikely even Brahmos-M can fired from P-8i it is simply too heavy, however a variant of NGARM adapted to AshW would be ideal.
if a pylon is not available to carry the weight of the brahmos, maybe an internal weapons bay solution could be thought of

maybe a few P-8is could be modified to carry the brahmos housed in an internal weapons bay mounted rotary type of launcher.

(would the amerikis allow us to do it, and where would we get it modified are two points that are bound to be raised if such an option were ever to be debated by the powers that be, and found feasible)
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by John »

sohamn wrote:
fanne wrote:why not the kilos? Upgrade their electronics with what we got for scorpene and keep their weapon system Russian. Put a AIP plug, they could be handful

That's smart, why not do that to all the Ambassador taxi's with Tesla's electronics. That could solve the gas crisis in the planet. :rotfl:

Just because they are submarines doesn't mean all the electronics are plug and play. Kilo's are not only a generation old but also a completely different design.
Apart from what is mentioned we cannot upgrade or refit any Russian platform like Kilo without Russia’s blessing. Type 209 is another possibility but they are getting old and I believe they already been thru a refit.

if a pylon is not available to carry the weight of the brahmos, maybe an internal weapons bay solution could be thought of

maybe a few P-8is could be modified to carry the brahmos housed in an internal weapons bay mounted rotary type of launcher.
Unf not much room internally for that it’s current internal hard point can only handle something the size of Mark 54 torpedoes so even more constrained than external hard points, so cannot even carry harpoon size missiles internally.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by fanne »

so we cannot build new submarines as no vendor is coming forth for P75I, will not order more P75 boats, would not retrofit (depending on technical feasibility) a force multiplier AIP (that gives any sub 14-xx days of submerged capability) to existing subs....lets twiddle thumb and wait
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by ldev »

John wrote:
sohamn wrote: if a pylon is not available to carry the weight of the brahmos, maybe an internal weapons bay solution could be thought of

maybe a few P-8is could be modified to carry the brahmos housed in an internal weapons bay mounted rotary type of launcher.
Unf not much room internally for that it’s current internal hard point can only handle something the size of Mark 54 torpedoes so even more constrained than external hard points, so cannot even carry harpoon size missiles internally.
USN has commissioned a project to integrate the LRASM (Long Range Air to Ship Missile - 450 kg warhead, 600 km + range) plus JDAM & SDB (Small Diameter Bomb) on the P-8 - making it into a long range strike platform. It is worth it with a fleet of 200+. For the IN with 12 P-8s, going in for a bespoke solution with the Brahmos is just not worth it, and you would need approval of US and Russia for it I presume. Good Luck in getting that!!. Instead of that, get those TU-142s out of retirement and sling 3 Brahmos under each wing if the IN is willing to go through the nightmare of maintaining the TU-142s!! Somebody more familiar can probably detail how many hours of ground maintenance were needed for every hour of flying towards the end of their life.
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